Nasuverse FSN + SAO: j-jam it in!

Nasuren

Well-Known Member
Wait a second... wasn't Norse mythology actually real in some sense? Thor was one of those class cards the baddies used in Fate/kaleid liner and I heard Gungnir in reference to Gae Bolg. That's not including the fact that runes were originally Norse in origin...

Let's twist this around a bit: SAO was the first attempt to introduce the [Thaumaturgy Patch] to a controlled group of test subjects in a situation that outside forces cannot influence, personally overseen by Kayaba both inside and outside the game.

ALO, focuses on the 'belief of the Norse that runes were magic' idea to introduce a interactive magic system using runes as it's selling point instead of flight. Secretly, it's actually allow it's players to learn to use runes before it's [Thaumaturgy Patch] goes live later on while stimulating player research into a very unpopular branch of Magecraft. Considering that most Magi doesn't find it appealing, it could be Kayaba's hope to bypass the association's centuries head start in research by focusing a game solely on a branch of magic that a Magus might not be well versed in.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
I've already got Diabel using the Futhark Runes.

Making ALO an [open primer] in magecraft is too dangerous; Kayaba's best defense is that everything is completely isolated from the Real World, including the Enforcers. Doing anything that could warn MA that he's up to something is contrary to his strategy.

Especially if I'm going to have Waver be playing that game.

And, I'm not sold on Kayaba having any real control over ALO; in some ways it would be good to contrast his omnipotent godliness inside SAO with his relatively much more limited powers outside the game. So having things happen that are outside his control would be a good way to demonstrate the limits of his power rather than having him be some kind of boring invincible villain.

Having Sugou be something that he's like "oh oh shit that's not what I planned on" towards would be a good way to underline the part of the story where he's not in complete control any more.

So I want RectoProgress and Sugou to be outside Kayaba's control, where he might be able to influence them in limited ways, but fundamentally it's an uphill battle for him.
 

Nasuren

Well-Known Member
Alright, I can get behind that.

Any Chance of muggle FSN characters showing up during SAO?
 

lhklan

Well-Known Member
Nasuren said:
Alright, I can get behind that.

Any Chance of muggle FSN characters showing up during SAO?
I'm hoping for Ayako and the Track Trio personally.
 
FSN fanfics can always use more Ayako and it would be an interesting person to add if SOA adds in archery of some kind
 

Nasuren

Well-Known Member
Archery...

I would say that Archery would work about as well as modern weapons would against a Magus, meaning it wouldn't be much until somebody (likely a Emiya) comes along with ways to use it that others never thought of.

Truth be told, I wouldn't mind Ayako making an appearance as well. Out of everybody that he knows, Shirou can't really say he's friends with most of the people he knows. He'd help Kirito and Asuna in a heartbeat and vice-versa, but only Illya had made an attempt to spend time outside of 'work'. He needs his own 'network' of friends that isn't on a professional level nor only a friend-of-a-friend.

Even a Sixth Ranger needs to unwind now and then.
 

rajvir

Well-Known Member
SilverBack354 said:
FSN fanfics can always use more Ayako and it would be an interesting person to add if SOA adds in archery of some kind
Currently there are no good ranged weapons and I doubt Kayaba will add them as the lack of long ranged attacks encourages magecraft.
 
If Kayaba keeps realism then there's not much problem as long as there is no auto feature or crossbows with the archery since archery is pretty hard and with the stamina feature added in it would make it difficult to win fights with just archery unless your accuracy is good enough to always critical but it can be a good method for kiting MOBs.

I hope that there is gonna be MOBs with magic resistance since it would force the players to research stronger spells since any magic resistance higher than E rank doesn't reduce damage it outright negates damage. Daniel if you do decide on adding magic resistance can you tell us the how strong the different attack spells shown so far rank vs magic resistance.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
Magic resistance is going to happen, but Magic Resistance on the scale of Heroic Spirits is... that's a really long way off, in several ways.

I probably won't add Archery because it's too far from the basic ruleset that the original design of SAO called for; as the launch title of a game for a revolutionary new computer interface that's an even bigger step than the introduction of GUIs and mice, I'm willing to bet that the game combat was kept really, really simple for the first title because they couldn't compare it to any other games at all, so they designed conservatively.

And it's not all that relevant to Kayaba's goals for the hijacked version, so there's no real motive for him to do add it either.



Anyway...

When could I add someone from Fuyuki?
Right now I've got Chapter Nine titled "Reunion" because that's when Klein and his Guild join the Front Lines.

So if I was going to add someone from Fuyuki to the game, that's probably the chapter I'd do it in, just for the sake of thematic "fit" so it's not just jamming someone in; I might even stick them in Fuurinkazan.


Who could I add from Fuyuki?
If it's "Shirou's friends", then my first pick would be Shinji, but he is disqualified because he came down with a case of he Deads, and Issei is DQ'd 'cause I already showed that he's not trapped in the game in one of the TDs.

So in terms of named characters, that pretty much leaves some fraction of the Track Trio or the Mitsuzuri siblings. I'm not enthusiastic about the Track Trio because they're more like, friends-of-friends; and Mitsuzuri-otouto is a little too much of a side character (I don't think we ever heard him talk, just heard him referred to); so that pretty much leaves only Ayako as a candidate.

Of course all that completely ignores that all these candidates are athletic-club types, not video-game types. [SAO] is an MMO that uses cutting-edge hardware. Maybe Argus made a special effort to reach out to "casual" customers or whatever, but it's fundamentally a game for hardcore gamer types.


Why would I add someone from Fuyuki?
And all that is just "adding people for the sake of adding them".
Right now the four main characters each represent a critical viewpoint towards Magecraft and what it's Reveal is:

Asuna is a "normal person" who will react with normal morality and common sense.

Kirito is a "curious person" who will instinctively want to reveal everything and be held back only by fear of repercussions.

Ilya is an "outsider magus" who has her sensibilities offended by Kayaba's scheme but is primarily concerned with whether he'll interfere with her hermetic lifestyle.

Shirou is a "magic user" who is worried about the conflict that will occur, but doesn't have any opinion about whether it's "good" or "bad." For him magic is a tool, he only cares about limiting harm.

Other characters have different reactions, but are all distinct:

Diabel is someone who's first reaction to everything is "how can I use this". Maybe he thinks he's a good person and wants to be a good guy, but that's not the foundation of how I'm using him. Of everyone, he's ideologically closest to Shirou, but instead of minimizing harm he wants to maximize benefit (to himself).

Kibaou is a straightforward guy who hates deception and is clumsy with feelings. He'll distrust MA on principle and basically every objection and complaint he could imagine will be at least a little valid. So he'll be advocating for the dissolution of MA, and he won't be a straw man about it, even if he's a little inarticulate.

Argo is someone who compulsively digs things up just because she hates being ignorant. Similar to Kirito, but she might not necessarily feel obligated to share what she learns. She might be repulsed by the excesses of MA, but she's someone who might even join???

Grimlock is a normal magus who is viscerally horrified at what Kayaba is about to do. He's a "reactionary" who thinks things are correct the way they are. He'll have some good points, maybe.

Griselda is a victim in at least three ways: to Grimlock's past that means he keeps his true self secret, to his present that means he'll sacrifice her, and as a specimen in Kayaba's dream for the future.

Johnny Black wants the world to run on Rule of Cool. So he's going to be "loyal" to whoever he thinks will make that happen. Also he's kindof psychotic.

Hexadecimal is only looking at dealing with the problems in his immediate life; what happens to the world is a side effect of dealing with what happens to him and the people he cares about.

Klein... is the kind of person that can understand the truth of human hearts, so compared to Diabel and Shirou, he'd be closer to true utilitarianism, where he thinks the endeavor of magecraft, that all endeavors, should be something for making people happy.

And of course...
Kayaba wants to start up a new "Age of Wonders" where the full potential of magecraft is realized by modern (scientific) civilization. A technological utoptianist who wants to create the ideal world (according to his personal version of "ideal").


In short, if I'm going to add someone, they have to have a different perspective on the Reveal than these people; otherwise they're redundant. There are more characters I've involved than are touched on here, but they all serve a similar purpose: that I'm building towards them all having different opinions about The Reveal.

What about after SAO?
If I was going to use her, I've thought about promoting Ayako into the [Sleeping Knights], as someone that was severely injured during the Blood Fort Andromeda mysterious gas leak in the school; that would nicely explain how someone from the [sports faction] switched to the [videogame faction]. More importantly, that lets me use her as a concrete example of "someone victimized by magecraft and its secrecy" to explain why there would be backlash against The Reveal; someone who has personal reasons to oppose Magecraft compared to Kibaou's ideological ones. That's just tentative, though.

I've also thought about giving Sakura a job as a moderator in [ALO] or whatever I replace it with, as something she does to get closer to Shirou, or understand what he's going through, or whatever. She might be used (by Kayaba? by Diabel?) as proof that the current system victimizes its practitioners as well, maybe even as a "wedge strategy" so that individual practitioners can be divided into "good" and "bad" rather than making it a stark "us vs them" conflict.


tl;dr
Well, really my point is, if you want me to add Ayako that's fine,

But before you talk about what kind of skills she should have or whatever, explain why you think adding her, would add to the story.

Well, that sounds kinda like a brush-off, but it is sincere; I'm not above shamelessly using whatever good ideas you folks propose.
 

lask

Well-Known Member
It might be a game for hardcore gamers, but it's also a very viscerally physical game. Ayako is a very physical character, and one with something to prove to everyone. I could see her playing.

As for role... she wants to be the best to be the best. There are characters who like being smart, or clever, or have goals, but no one on your list wants to be the top of the list to prove they can be the top of the list.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
I'm not all that enthusiastic about Ayako suddenly showing up out of nowhere, but if I had to justify it, I would go with your explanation that Blood Fort Andromeda left unable to practice her archery, maybe even to a life-long crippling degree, so she decided to try SAO as some sort attempt to connect back to what she was capable of before the accident.
 

MasalaQuaker

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
and Mitsuzuri-otouto is a little too much of a side character (I don't think we ever heard him talk, just heard him referred to)
I believe he does get lines in HA. But he's still very side character.
 

Nasuren

Well-Known Member
Wait, wait... Ayako wasn't victimized by BFA. If I remember right, she was attack by either Rider or Caster and rendered hospitalized by it.

It's not as impressive as getting caught with the rest of the school in BFA, but considering that she wasn't a victim of one of the mass incidents, I can easily see Kayaba 'scouting' her out for SAO in the hope of her having magical potential.

As for Sakura? Zouken survived in the Fate route, didn't he? I could see him asking Kayaba to have her monitor Shirou in a 'look but don't touch' situation in an attempt to break her.
 

Estrecca

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
I probably won't add Archery because it's too far from the basic ruleset that the original design of SAO called for; as the launch title of a game for a revolutionary new computer interface that's an even bigger step than the introduction of GUIs and mice, I'm willing to bet that the game combat was kept really, really simple for the first title because they couldn't compare it to any other games at all, so they designed conservatively.
According to some supplementary materials, apparently Kayaba designed a whole bunch of ranged weapon options (including boomerangs and such) that got cut from the final release because of poor reception during alpha/beta testing.
 

MasalaQuaker

Well-Known Member
Aw man, now I want to see a guy focused on magic boomerangs.
I swear there was a game like that.
 

Nasuren

Well-Known Member
...those actually aren't boomerangs you use for fights. Returning boomerangs are used to scare game towards a hunter, while boomerangs used for actually taking down something flew straight with as much power possible and not return.

Bows aren't easy to shoot. Most people thinks it's just 'pull back the arrow and fire', and it isn't. You have to figure the distance and calculate how high you need to aim to correct for gravity. That's not taking into considering that arrows allways curve to the side when fired. When that all adds up, then there's the fact that different bows and strings will factor further-

You know what? Let's just say that I understand why Bows and boomerangs were left out.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
ZERO DAY PLUS

Hey I got around to tabulating how much in-universe time it's been, just so I'd have an idea. These values... are pretty accurate, but some of them are more rigid than others; some are just approximate.

I dunno if I've mentioned this explicitly or not, but I've been working with Zero Day as November 6th, 2022, just like in SAO canon. Well, I'm sure the "early November" thing has been mentioned, but the year hasn't; FSN left the year of the 5th War implicit, so I've just said, "ah, what the hell; it happened in February of 2022".

Well, probably the most important thing that drove when Nasu picked when the War happened was so that Saber and Shirou would have their date on Valentine's Day, which will be a Monday in 2022, so there's that, for whatever that's worth.



Here's that courier table already:

Chapter:_Title_________________________DAY________%
1.0:_Kayaba's Welcome____________________0________0%
2.1:_Asuna and Ilya_____________________14________1.3%
2.2:_Shirou and Kibaou__________________17________1.6%
2.3:_The Deal___________________________21________1.9%
2.4:_Diabel and Shirou__________________23________2.1%
3.1:_1F Boss Meeting____________________30________2.7%
3.2:_VS 1F Boss_________________________30________2.7%
3.3:_After 1F Battle____________________30________2.7%
4.1:_Ilya, Shirou, and Heroism__________30________2.7%
4.2:_Argo and Kirito Rock Out___________30________2.7%
4.3:_Johnny Black_______________________34________3.1%
4.4:_Asuna, Ilya, and Those Three_______35________3.2%
4.5:_The Good Samaritan_________________35________3.2%
5.1:_Griselda, Inspired_________________39________3.6%
5.2:_Asuna and Kirito and Elements______41________3.7%
5.3:_2nd Floor Boss_____________________44________4%
5.4:_Shirou and Liz and Friends_________44________4%
6.1:_The Forest Goblin__________________45________4.1%
6.2:_Call me Mistress___________________52________4.7%
6.3:_Quest for Steel____________________56________5.1%
6.4:_The Evil Eye_______________________56________5.1%
6.5:_Hammer Time________________________57________5.2%
7.1:_Curious Rat________________________60________5.5%
7.2:_Curious Rat 2______________________60________5.5%
7.3:_Ilya, Silica, and Shirou___________61________5.6%
7.4:_VS 3F Boss_________________________68________6.2%


The percentage is how much of the way towards an arbitrary deadline of three years I've gotten to, so it's just =DAY/10.95 with a little % on the end.

Amusingly (for me):
1) Christmas passed between "Forest Goblin" and "Call Me Mistress".
2) This puts "Quest for Steel" and "Evil Eye" on New Years' Day.

Well, ignoring the IRL dates has been a deliberate decision on my part, for the sake of the characters being "isolated", rather than waxing nostalgic about holidays.

Lemmee know what you think, or if you care.
 
By the way how does the Church fit in to this? I mean will they oppose Kayaba's Plan. Will they support it, not care, be wary of it? Also will there be any members of the Assembly of the Eighth Sacrament in SAO? If so will the system be able to utilize sacraments? I mean according to canon "The Thaumaturgical Theory of the Church, in form of its Holy Sacraments, is the most widespread and well stabilized in the world."
 

Nasuren

Well-Known Member
Lemmee know what you think, or if you care.
...is it me, or does Illya seem out of place sticking around the first city for 14 days to help others?

Nevertheless, a timeline is always useful. I disagree with the holidays a bit as I expected a few to recognize it, but considering the situation I can understand why they didn't celebrate them when their families and friends are outside.

I mean according to canon "The Thaumaturgical Theory of the Church, in form of its Holy Sacraments, is the most widespread and well stabilized in the world."
It gains strength from the belief in the church, but considering that most of the players are Japanese and the system itself is isolated, I don't see it having the same level of stabilization in the game. Not to mention what might happen if it was and a few players knew it.

Holy war, anybody?
 

rajvir

Well-Known Member
Jouaint said:
By the way how does the Church fit in to this? I mean will they oppose Kayaba's Plan. Will they support it, not care, be wary of it? Also will there be any members of the Assembly of the Eighth Sacrament in SAO? If so will the system be able to utilize sacraments? I mean according to canon "The Thaumaturgical Theory of the Church, in form of its Holy Sacraments, is the most widespread and well stabilized in the world."
I am fairly sure Daniel mentioned that the Church's holy sacraments would not work in the game.
He has not mentioned the real Churches stance as far as I can remember.
This is just my personal opinion but I think they would disapprove of Kayaba's plan because due to it, they have to deal with a lot more heretics.
 

loirit

Well-Known Member
Regarding ranged weapons - leaving aside whether players get to use them, it seems likely enemies would show up with them. Mundane ranged weapons are pretty common in the real world, after all.

daniel_gudman said:
Amusingly (for me):
1) Christmas passed between "Forest Goblin" and "Call Me Mistress".
2) This puts "Quest for Steel" and "Evil Eye" on New Years' Day.
It does seem a bit odd that there were no in-game events. Holiday events are a pretty common thing in MMOs, and I'm pretty sure there was one in SAO canon (the resurrection item was one, I think).
 
My contribution to the "what to do about the City Campers" discussion; I hope that I won't ramble on too much.

Let's say that one day, everybody staying in a Safe Zone on a cleared floor wakes up cursed - with some trivial effect such as a 50% movement speed debuff or mild, irritating pain. Naturally, this means that those who know how to circulate their prana will do so, and then at least *some* will spread around the knowledge of how it's done. Those who didn't have their circuits opened now have an incentive to do at least that much.

The day after (or the one after that), a different disaster strikes. Doors have been Altered into a "locked" state. A simple prana infusion (i.e. Reinforcement) will break the effect.

The plague coming next would be themed around Alteration - let's say that all blankets in town get turned into uncomfortably itchy materials, and no two shoes fit together. The options? Get new ones (which means leaving the town for either materials or Gil) or use Alteration to change the old ones.

Followup to which would be basic Projection - horror of horrors, all cutlery in town has vanished overnight.

Next up are propably bounded fields - first, as a repetition of Day one with the twist that the curses get promptly reapplied by the visually-distinct fields until they get broken, then by creating irritating enviroment - smog, insect infestation, hot and cold zones, tropical and desert climes, etc. - that the players have to deal with themselves.

Then, mix things up and repeat, with occasional innovation thrown in. Bounded fields spawning annoying insects that spread debuffs arounds. Altering all liquids in town to have unnatural colors and watery taste. Swarms of songbirds screeching shrilly at 5 o'clock in the morning. Thick snow. Heat waves. Droughs and floods. NPCs convinced that players are all unintelligible or invisible.

And so on. The goals are twofold - shake people out of their comfort zones, which will drive at least some to actively join the game, and to hone their skills in magic.

After a couple of weeks of such a regime, the choices before everyone camping Safe Zones will be clear: bear the discomfort, get out of town, or learn magic and spend some twenty minutes or so before breakfast dealing with Kayaba's choice of annoyances for the day.

It would propably be best to seed the town with some sort of Sage NPCs whose only role is telling players how to go around dealing with things, which could then spread by word-of-mouth. ("So, the howler monkeys disturb your sleep and earplugs don't work, eh? Well.. you could make a Bounded Field around your bed to silence the noise. No? What about Altering your hearing? Not interested? Well, you could always get a familiar or a spirit to chase them away.. I could show you how to make one. Not a fan of pets? In that case, what about Alchemy? Trasmuting your walls to not conduct sound, or brewing a Sleeping Draught..")

The end result would propably be a division between Magi, who actively pursue new research and use magic of their own volition (i.e. most of currently active players) and mere Magic Users, who couldn't care less about innovating, so long as they know enough to live comfortably in town.

But then, laziness is a great motivator and once they get into the habit of dealing with problems and discomfort by using magic, it will likely bleed through to other facets of their lives.

And, of course, once they get used to it, things can escalate. Cripping heat instead of annoying. Blizzards instead of cold showers. Riot gas instead of smog.

Ideally, by the time that front lines start approaching those "Hostile Enviroment" levels, people back down would already be used to dealing with more-or-less the same, only to lesser degrees.

That would foster greater exchange of ideas and, hopefully, player involvement, since even Rear-liners would become important for the advancement of the Front.

* * *

If you want to get really nasty, then the "no open warfare" nature of Safe Zones could be used to train players for the wrong side of the Moonlit World - memory modification, personality editation, spying and counterspying, corrupting magecraft, etc.

Perhaps some sort of "Terror From Below"? As more floors are cleared, the lowest floors begin to darken. Eventually, they end in a state of perpetual night, interspersed only with brief periods of twilight.

And as darkness falls, the occupants of the Safe Zones begin to change. More unsavoury characters emerge. NPCs that trade in secrets and sins - offering rewards for stereotypical Magi behaviour, ranging from stealing knowledge to stealing memories to dissections to vivisections. All against mobs and other NPCs, of course - the anti-harassment code can get quite vicious in face of such sort of molestation.

The darkened Safe Zones stay ostensibly Safe - but their atmosphere changes to something straight out of the World of Darkness. Quests teaching not how to navigate a map, but how to navigate a conspiracy. Appraising motives and judging bonds instead of assaying items and grading materials. How to hone a mind rather than a blade. And thorough all of this, the pressure to learn relevant magic increases.

Can't tell lies well? Divine the truth of their words. Or hear their heartbeat and see the dilation of their pupils.
Can't understand other people? Learn how to peek into their heart of hearts or how to make mirrors that show their desires.
Not smart enough for magic? There's a spell for that, too. What will you trade for it?
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
Aodh said:
My contribution to the "what to do about the City Campers" discussion; I hope that I won't ramble on too much.
Some interesting ideas, there.

On another note, something minorly useful and amusing for [Cardinal] to use when building cities: a random Street Name Generator. Here are a few it came up with when I tried it:

Tawny Bird Niche
Cold Robin Round
Heather Fox Mews
Dewy Edge
Shady Prairie Arbor

Just a throw-away bit, probably, unless you see a name that inspires something.
 
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