Nasuverse FSN + SAO: j-jam it in!

Cool!


You left out Yona in your list of reactions/perspectives. Yona's experience is now distinctly different from the others, because so far he's the only named Undead character. He's also distinct from characters like Bones, Hexidemical, One Snow or Itagaki in that he's had an entire scene written solely from his perspective.

The others have faced Magecraft as "the reason for my imprisonment and threat of death", but Yona is now experiencing Magecraft as "my imprisonment, and deeper level of Hell". The others at least get some feeling of empowerment from learning Magecraft they can actually use, but Yona is reduced to a rat in someone's maze experiment.

But there's someone with an even more distinct viewpoint that isn't on the list, and a suitable replacement for your Ayako concept: The girl out of whom Kayaba ripped an Element.

Just like your Ayako concept, she's unique among them all in being "a normal personal directly and painfully victimized by Magecraft, who has very personal reasons to oppose Kayaba".


Kirito loves to learn and Argo hates to not know, eh?

This reminds me of how Fate/Stay Night itself (or perhaps Rin herself; or was it just me, based on two throw-away lines?) once compared Shirou and Rin: Rin likes to win, and Shirou hates to lose.

That is, Rin prefers to pursue courses of action in which she will succeed. She's pragmatic, economical and just a bit egotistical and lazy like that. If she has no reasonable chance of achieving one goal and no pressing reason to keep going (or even begin to try), she tends to abandon it and choose something else to invest her time and energy into.

Shirou, by contrast, is dedicated to the point of pigheaded stubbornness. He appreciates people thanking or paying him for his actions, but he never does anything so that other people will reward him. He never chooses a goal based on whether he will succeed or fail, and he hates to abandon a course of action even when he's certain he will fail. Because if nothing else, trying and failing can make him wiser and stronger than before, so that next time he might succeed.

As a genius, Rin is just used to success being easy or at least assured, and she's not comfortable when it isn't. But Shirou is long accustomed to the idea that anything worth doing is likely to require gallons of blood, sweat and tears with almost nothing to show for it.

Since Argo is the Shirou in this contrast (against Kirito as Rin), and since she and Shirou are both weak against praise, I wonder if their relationship might grow into a deeply sympathetic friendship.

If Argo has lived by fighting for everything she can grasp, Shirou could at least understand what it's like to constantly struggle for something you want.


Thanks for that clarifiying and interesting summary. I always thought Kibaou wasn't a total asshole, just so much of an asshole that, when left unchecked, he would become a total asshole. But before that point, he does have some legitmate reasons to be angry (especially within his short-sighted and self-centered perspective).


I am intrigued and wish to know more.

Well, thinking about this does seem to agree with how maturely Klein approached his friendship with Kirito. Klein's words to Asuna about Kirito on the 74th floor, and how Klein always tried reaching out to Kirito, because he never took each previous rejection personally. When Kirito abandoned him at the start, Klein graciously let him go with a smile.

Yes. If Ilya thinks she understands grace, she should see Klein put to the test. Though seeing true grace, she'd probably dismiss it as weakness.


Anyway, what about Sachi?


As Nasuren said, Ayako was personally attacked and drained by Rider in the Fate route. More over, the Blood Fort was never even activated in the Fate route, or if it was, it was at night when no one else but Shirou and Shinji were even at the school.

Ayako's condition is never specified and never comes up again in the Fate route, so what exact kind of damage Rider did to her is unknown. It might have only rendered her temporarily weak and unconscious, or it might have left her effectively brain-dead. It depends on whether Rider only sucked out a lot of her blood or life-energy, or drained her soul (and then it depends on whether souls recover from that kind of thing).

Either way, all we know is that Rider didn't outright kill Ayako, and put her out of commision for at least a few days.

...I thought the news of the 'attack' hinted that she survived.

Actually, Ayako wouldn't remember that she was attacked by a Servant or a Magus. Odds are Kirei would have at least struck out her memory of the supernatural part of her attack and maybe Shinji's part in it. There would be a chance that she might recover the memory later on and fulfil the 'one victimized by Magecraft', but right now she'd be the fragile 'former victim of an assault'. Ayako might appear the same on the outside, but it wouldn't change the fact that she might have some secret trauma that would drive her into a 'not be a victim' path or cause her to fall into depression if she's stuck in SAO.

Uh... Blood Fort definitely happened and there were plenty of victims.

I think he is thinking of HF not Fate.

Magic User Perspectives
That list was "what came to mind", not a comprehensive checklist of everyone.



Ayako and BFA
Do you remember where this was mentioned?

She was assaulted early on, but it wasn't Rider and she wasn't hurt; Shirou, Rin, and Taiga gossiped about it. (I think this might have been in UBW but I'm not sure).

Rider did do the creepy molester-stalker thing in FHA though... plus the three people she murdered as food early on... well, it's completely in character for her, I guess, but I just, seriously don't remember that happening.


No, it was activated during the middle of a school day.

Ah, right. The fight between them was private simply because everyone else was unconscious, and it was dark because of the red tint.

But in one of the routes, Shinji really did order Rider to attack Ayako, I think. I feel that wasn't just a thing in the anime, though now I can't swear to it.

I do remember the manga having her hospitalized and Rider was the culprit, but it's been hinted that Rider or Caster did drain her in the game. I don't remember her appearing after that mention, but it's logical that she at least needed bedrest for a few days to recover. Because of this, it's possible she would miss the BFA incident.

it was implied that Shinji used Rider to Attack/assault Ayako in Fate (as he was the last person who knwe her wherabouts and was last seen in company of Shinji, not to mention that Shinji gloated about Ayako getting her just desserts, it was one of the reasons for why Shirou was angry) and it also implied another kind of assault upon her..., and if my memory doesn't fail she was at home when the BFA incident happened.

so... rehabilitation therapy using the Nerve Gear and MMORPG to reactivate her social life?

Actually, it looks to me like Ayako in Fate Route either got injured in an unrelated way or got only lightly drained early on and like Nasuren said she might have missed school entirely during the whole BFA thing. Regardless, I can't find any direct statements about her being last seen with Shinji or anything in Fate Route of the Visual Novel. It's possible that part was added to either the anime or manga version or that it happens in one of the other routes instead.

Assuming she was good enough to go to school and did get drained on top of that it's possible she may have been one of the ones put in the hospital for only a few days, however the following line from the epilogue leads me to believe that it wasn't all that serious.

This line leads me to believe that whatever happened to Ayako wasn't serious enough for her to step down as Captain of the Archery Club. It's possible she needed a little time to heal and rebuild her strength, but it doesn't sound like it was a matter of making her unable to continue her competitiveness in sports and athletics. More like a temporary injury that needs some time to heal before one gets back up to their old level.

As such, while it's possible Ayako would bear a grudge against Magecraft, it's unlikely that she'll have vehement hatred of it. More likely she would be wary.

In my opinion, Ayako has much higher potential as a way to develop Shirou than as a "I hate magecraft because of what it did to me in the real word" sort of deal. I think that the best way she could be used would be more in line with the idea of having a person who knows Shirou in real life, and as such has a better idea than most of the others about his background, as such she is able to potentially make deductions those around her do not.

For example. Ayako has always known Shirou was handy due to his actions around the school. However, when she finds out how absurdly high his Structural Analysis, Reinforcement, and metallurgy skills are she might initially joke that he's just as good here as in real life. Only, suddenly she might begin to draw certain connections. So far as she knew in real life, Shirou wasn't a particularly good fighter. In fact, apart from his archery skills (which he hasn't used yet in SAO) he was near harmless. Now she finds out that he's actually an awesome swordsman who seems to be making all sorts of strange leaps in abilities, except some of them match up with his odd... affinities and skills in real life.

What's more, having been involved in the HGW by peripheral, Ayako might be much more willing to believe that magecraft is potentially real as she begins to examine the odd happenings that occurred from new angles. There's also the fact that for some reason after the odd happenings Shirou got a new sister (something I'm sure Taiga ranted about eventually) and became friends with Rin (something Rin probably didn't bother to hide).

In other words, though they're small and scattered, Ayako probably has the best chance of realizing that Shirou and Ilya are real life magi of all the unaware players. The thing is, while Kirito and Argo are more watchful and insightful than her, Ayako has one major advantage. She knows Emiya Shirou. She knows that Emiya doesn't have any grand programming skills so he's not an Alpha Tester or a designer. She knows that Shirou has always wanted to be a hero. IIRC it's been an open joke among the student body. She knows that Shirou isn't some intimidating bodyguard in real life. To sum things up, she knows a part of Emiya Shirou, even if she doesn't know all of him. As such, when she sees Shirou in the game and compares him to what he was like outside, she'll begin to realize that Shirou hasn't really changed but she's seeing new sides to him.

And once she takes a closer look at these new sides and thinks about it a bit more closely...

To be honest, this could be taken in several directions should you include her. One, she doesn't figure it out for a long time (maybe not even until they finally get outed publicly after Grimlock) and instead decides to try to stick around Shirou a bit more as he is someone who she knows in real life and he gives her another connection back to the real world. Two, Ayako figures it out relatively early and keeps it to herself as she has no way to "confirm" it and has no evidence to back it up. In this circumstance she could either stick around Shirou more in order get more information or because she trusts him due to his actions both in RL and in the game, or she could confront him about this privately and be the first "normal" brought into the know at which point she has the rest of the game to make her decision.

Looking at the brief snatches of personality that we get of Ayako I could see her figuring out that Shirou is a real world Magus from the small bits and pieces she has to use that others don't. What's more, since it doesn't like it did more than inconvenience her in the end I don't see Ayako holding a "deep searing hatred" for Magecraft, though wariness and/or distaste is definitely possible. The thing is though, I think that if Ayako does confront Shirou with her suspicions she can get a relatively unbiased opinion and overview of magecraft from him.

By this point I would assume that Shirou knows that the majority of magi are not nice people, however there are exceptions and magecraft in and of itself isn't actually "evil". Just like most other things in the world it can be used for both beneficial and negative effects. Regardless of how she takes such an explanation though, I see both her and Shirou recognizing that screaming that magecraft is real to the bulk of SAO would ultimately be more detrimental than helpful, at least until they near the end of the game and need to begin preparations for returning to the real world.

Whatever the case, rather than be yet another potential player who is antagonistic towards Shirou, I think Ayako would work better as an "anchor" to the real world and his friends for him. As things stand, Shirou has exactly one person he can trust big secrets to in the game and Ilya isn't exactly normal. If Ayako were to become a secret keeper of sorts I think she could work as a good contrast to Ilya when it comes to certain dilemmas, like how certain people might react to magecraft really existing. Give other more "normal" options for him to take as opposed to the generally radical ones that Ilya and him tend to come up with due to their relatively skewed thought processes.

It's also possible that Ayako could end up a "student" of Shirou and Ilya. One who could be trained a little more intensively in magecraft due to being let in on the secrets that Ilya and Shirou have. She's very competitive and I could see her wanting to get the greatest advantage she could in becoming a powerful clearer in the game. For example, Shirou could use his "traced skills" to spar with her and help her learn how to fight without system assist like majority of the other players. There's also the possibility of Ayako giving Shirou the idea to create a bow which while it would lack system assist could still be used as a new type of weapon within the game taking advantage of the physics engine.

And I'm rambling again. Stopping now. To sum things up, Ayako doesn't have to be the "I was hurt by magecraft in RL and despise it" character but could instead be the first normal to be brought into the secret, or a tie to the normal people he knows in the real world. Daniel's choice in the end on whether he even wants to include her.

I think Daniel was trying to suggest that she would be one of the few who was affected by it or suspects that she might have, not necessarily the point that she immediately despised it. As for her personality? She was 'attacked' by a 'molester'. As someone who knows people who were molested IRL, I doubt that she'd be the same as before. It's not necessarily at the level developing phobia or acting different, but it will leave a mark in her.

It's nice to see someone else thinking that Shirou needs some connection to real life, though. Like the Illya/Silica relationship, Shirou will need someone that will help him stay grounded and give regular advice from. Out of the current cast, only Illya is close enough for that and we all know what kind of advice she'd give.

Thanks for the research, Zeranion. I appreciate it. I also appreciate the analysis; that's pretty spot-on for what Ayako would bring to the table as an individual!

This is actually a reason why I would want to exclude her.

Magecraft is self-hypnosis.

Such an anchor would drag him down in a different way than his ideals.

I'm not bothered about him coming out of this alienated from his life before it. It's not like Shirou was so happy with his daily life of "I don't know how to pursue my dream, so for now, I'll just do my best" that there's any reason for him to remain connected to it. Maybe he had friendships, but when it came to his life goal, he was just... drifting. Giving him the experience of living out his dream, as the [Sixth Ranger], as a [Front Liner], as the [Sword Factory] or whatever; those are all building blocks for him to actively become who he always wanted to be, when he gets out of the game.

One of the things I'm trying to accomplish here is have Shirou spend literally years when he's not "secretly a crappy magus", but instead, where he's one of the pinnacles of achievement, and everyone knows that. And unlike almost everyone, he knows that every piece of magecraft he learns in-game is something that he can use IRL, that every skill is something he'll keep his whole life. By the time the game ends, he'll have the confidence and self-satisfaction of a hero.

The emotional armor of "it's okay if I fail, because I'm mediocre" will be stripped away. The mental limit of "I'm not talented" will be removed.

And at the same time that the mental limits are removed, he'll be surrounded by people experimenting with all kinds of battle magic and encouraging him to do the same. Taking away his Projection was to force him to try other things (something EMIYA never really did) and push him to experiment, and find what the limits of his ability actually are, rather than assuming he already knows them.

"If you cannot win, at least imagine something that can"...

that will become

"Imagine all the ways you can win."

Oh ho... That is an interesting point of view. I can see why you wouldn't want Ayako to go about grounding Shirou in the real world. Then again, in hindsight it's entirely possible that the reverse could happen and Ayako's exposure could actually make her decide to stop inching forward and jump straight into the rabbit hole. In that respect, she'd instead be an example of "a normal person who was thrust into the role of a magus". That would actually be pretty interesting, seeing how someone normal might shape themselves if they were to embrace that magecraft was real and not look back.

even if she doesn't make actual contact with Shirou?
i mean, all of the points of what her PoV are pretty nice and give us a perspective from someone who was a victim to magecraft (even if she is unaware of it) and Knows a IRL aspect of the [Sixth Ranger], her toughts would be nice... if you find a way for her to not contact Shirou and Shirou not notice her presence in the [Realm] at least until the end (in the final bout Vs Boss Shirou or in the monument as a casuality of Grimlok's crusade/Purge).
it would be especially interesting if she finally manages to discover that Shirou is a Magus before her 'death' and her toughts about it.

I agree with Zeranion on this. I mean, isn't Ayako like, super-competitive? Magecraft, in time, could be just another avenue for that side of her. A dangerous one, but what's life without some risk?

Alternatively, I'd like for there to be someone that could genuinely react to the various implications of magecraft in real life. For example, if hypnosis is revealed in-game then those that already practiced magecraft wouldn't have any reaction to it, after all, it's normal for them. And if the [Players] learn about it then they'll only react (worry, excitement) to the implications it has in the game, after all, there is a [Gap] between [Magecrat] and the [Real World].

It would take someone like Ayako, who wouldn't have that perceived [Gap], for us to have a genuine reaction to the Magecraft reveal.

We COULD wait until Grimlock outs the whole thing, but then it would already be somewhat late into the game and we would only be able to appreciate a very broad and vague realization of the player base as whole. With Ayako, we develop that quite a bit.

For that to work though, we would need for her to connect the dots early on AND keep her descovery/suspicions from Shirou and Ilya, so as to avoid exposition.

It's not. Magecraft is the operation of mysteries previosly inscribed upon the World. You are accesing something external that works by it's own selfcontained rules. Self-hypnosis is merely a convenient way of making the required headspace easier to archieve.

Shirous ideals are the source of his Reality Marble. They hardly drag him down when it can be arged that they are the only reason he exceptional to begin with.

In other words, you want him to stop thinking like an Ally of Justice and begin going the route of those who eventually become Heroic Spirits.

I actually think Ayako can hep with this. She can help make all of this real for Shirou. Right now, Shirou is thinking in terms of "as far as Cardinal is able to take it" or "sploiting that no stamina loophole to be more effective", this shows a disconect between what's happening in the game and what would happen in reality that is firmly in Shirou's mind.

In short, I think Shirou would benefit from having someone relativelly close to him in real life tell him in no uncertain terms that he is awesome and talented. And maybe keep reminding him that no, doing criticals without system assist is not normal nor unimpressive. I have the feeling that right now Shirou is dissmissing what others have to say in this matter out of their percieved ignorance (which is undestandable) and because noone of these people really know him.

That reminds me, have you thought of how are you going to handle Shirou eventually Triggering on Archer? Would soul ressonance come into action as it did in Unlimited Bladeworks?

Dammit, I closed the tab with my original post.

I agree with Ravraxas for another reason.

Shirou literally needs to strengthen his own ego a bit if he wants to use [Trigger on]. As shown with after he used Tsubame Gaeshi, the personality of the hero could override his own. Considering that if he needs to switch the hero he's channeling later on, this delay in fighting the personality could be lethal. Then there's the chance of him losing control completely if managed to channel a hero with a ego on the level of Iskandar or Gilgamesh.

I agree that Magecraft is not Self-Hypnosis, it's actually a step needed for the magi to balieve that whatever they want to do with magic is actually viable/possible/can and will be done...


actually his 'Ideals' are neither the source nor the basis of his reality Marble, and i cite Heaven's Feel scene of nine Bullet Revolver and Spark liner High to prove it:




Emiya Shirou's Reality Marble is achieved thanks to him winning the cosmic lottery of Unique Superpowers and having Avalon grafted into his body-soul, heck if anything it's Angra Manyu and the Fire that left him as a Spiritual Tabula Rasa/Blank Slate that gave (or awakened in) Shirou the capacity to generate a Reality Marble and Avalon changing his origin to blade/Sword is what defined it as UBW.

His ideal to become an ally of Justice/Superhero/Hero/Savior/Saving People thing has nothing to do with his actual capacity or ability for Magecraft, if anything is his sheer idiotic stubborness 'i won't retreat' attitude and behavior that makes him exceptional.

and this is taken from Heaven's freaking Feel, the route where many call Shirou Bob, puppet, etc. because it's the route that goes against his Save Everyone attitude that was prominent along the previous parts of the game and instead he becomes Sakura's 'knight', heck even EMIYA and himself aknowledge that it was against what Emiya Shirou was and believed in (at the moment at least), so no Ideals don't play that much of a part in Reality Marbles.

but i agree that his Ideal is what makes Emiya Shirou unique and likeable and more importantly it was what motivated him enough in Fate to go against Gil and Kotomine (and the Imagine something that can also allowed him to perfectly trace Avalon) and Manifest a fully deployed RM in UBW.

and Daniel, did everyone forgot the fact that Shirou activated some kind of Heroic Red Ring of Death Mode to completely destroy the first boss and save Diabel that left him smoking, glowing red and almost dead?

It's better to look at Self-Hypnosis as the tool used to simulate the Faith in magic/mysteries needed to successfully invoke said mysteries.

There have been shown 2 Reality Marble users in Nasu's works: Emiya Shirou and Nero Chaos. Emiya is obsessed with heroism to the point of martirdoom and Nero is turning into a mindless monster and is completely ok with it, even Roa (which held his own Reality Marble even if it was never used) was completely ok with abandoning his soul and merely rewriting people as a way to immortality. If we go with these examples one could arge that rejection of your own concept of "self" is necessary for a Reality Marble to manifest.

I don't think Shirou needs to fuck with the source of his Triggering ability to Trigger better.

There are two answers for that: First, HF!Shiro didn't abandon his Ideals, he merely twisted them to be "save Sakura" rather than "save Everyone"; Second, I will believe that HF!Shirou has a Reality Marble born of his own soul and not Archer's when I see it.

Shirou does has a concept of self. I can name a few points that he does feel fear (which also shows a sense of self preservation) in the game itself while I do believe Archer has show anger in UWB. Throwing away one's sense of self would basically mean that he would literally throw all emotions out the window.

You can say what you want about RMs, but it doesn't change the fact that we know so little about them it's ridiculous. We know what it does, that it's both rare and it takes Dead Apostles decades if not centuries to created/discover their own. Those we have seen so far are literally so different that each tends to throw out what we know. The only thing that we do know is it's been described as the alien common sense of demons, the only way I can describe how the hell Iskander ended up gaining Ionioi Hetairoi without using the excuse of his status as a servant.

Besides all that? Nothing. It cannot be gained through research and research is forbidden by the Association for some reason that I yet to hear from an official source.

I'm sorry if this came out of a rant, but I seriously don't think Shirou's Reality Marble is strong evidence beyond having a skewed common sense.

This sentence reminds me of something I heard, I think from Elf over on the Beast's Lair Type-Moon fan-forum. "Drown in your ideals and die" was a mistranslation, and Archer's words actually compare Shirou's ideals to chains and weights rather than a body of water. He's not "drowning" IN them, but rather he's letting them drag him down unto death because he won't let go of them.


I am amazed and thrilled by your insight into Shirou and your plans for him.


It HAS been refreshing to see a story where Emiya Shirou is "taken back to basics", rather than taking Unlimited Blade Works and running with it.


I definitely see Kirito's influence there.

But given the parallels I mentioned between Shirou/Rin and Argo/Kirito, I wonder if Argo might influence Shirou to some degree.

As far as I can tell, Self Hypnosis is the means used by Magi to manipulate their Magic Circuit(s). It's kind of like how I'd imagine flying in ALO to be - Magic Circuits are 'false nerves', so Self Hypnosis is how Magi get their brains to send signals to them.

The self-hypnosis is all about subverting your own Human Common Sense. In order to throw a fireball, Magi first need to convince themselves that it is actually POSSIBLE to do so. In that way, Dan's interpretation is correct, you can't perform magecraft if you don't utterly believe in it and that kind of mind-screwing tend to leave traces in the psyche that separate you from "normal" humans.

No, loirit is spot on. Self-hypnosis is used in magecraft to be able to use your Circuits in a determinate way to access your Thaumaturgical Fundation were the "interpreter" for your spell, the "program", is.

The actual operation of Magecraft is done in the level of your Magic Circuits, Arias and such only make it easier (absudly so). You don't "convice yourself" of anything, you entrer a "trance" in which you are able to access your Magic Circuits so you can use a Thaumaturgical Fundation.

Magecratf is not self-hypnosis. Self-hypnosis is the most convenient tool for using magecraft. There is a huge difference.

From my perspective, I said "Magecraft is self-hypnosis" to support the point "Emiya Shirou is unconsciously limiting myself"; I wasn't saying it as "Magecraft is self-hypnosis (and self-hypnosis ONLY)", but rather, "Magecraft (as Shirou uses it) is (among other things possibly) self-hypnosis". So I feel like this whole argument is mistaking the finger for the moon, in that context.

If his "Ideals" matter to his Marble, it's as a motive to train like crazy to achieve it, not as a prerequisite for it in-and-of-itself.

Well, that's a distinction without a difference, because it's not something I intend to point the camera at. RM are rare and have difficult pre-reqs, so Kayaba's not going to bother with them because they're outside the scope of what he can accomplish with the game. Shirou has his Marble, but it's not like this is a story about distinguishing what exactly he did or didn't need to achieve it.



But somebody said something I can't ignore.

This is really me just unloading my feelings about the Heaven Feel Route, so it doesn't have much to do with anything, especially since this fanfic is built from the Fate Route.

No, Emiya Shirou betrayed himself and his ideals so hard his Alternate Future Self turned to the camera and directly said, "Listen. Maybe the Mind of Steel is labeled a Bad End and those other two aren't; but that is a lie. For Emiya Shirou, they are the Worst Ends."


Then Ilya asks if he's really going to sacrifice Sakura to save a bunch of people he doesn't even know, except that "people he doesn't even know" is actually, all his school friends and their families and his neighbors and his coworkers from Copenhagen and their families. But Ilya doesn't know them so clearly they're not actually important, not actually people.

And then Kotomine Kirei starts doing his best to sincerely help Shirou, and if that doesn't convince you that things have gone desperately, terribly wrong, then just, I don't even know what to say after that.