Nasuverse A Certain Magical Blade Works?

[Avider]

Operative word since you seem to be an imbecile.

How.

Imaging/Tracing is all done mentally, that's not the goddamn issue.

The issue is you seem to think any magus can do what Shirou does if only they were taught differently, when the whole goddamn game points out to you that what Shirou does is different precisely because of UBW, that the side materials gave you the fucking definition of the RAP trio and UBW, and yet you still seem to have the misconception that Shirou's tracing ability is independent of UBW.

W.T.H.

 

[shioran toushin]

well if Shirou was taugth correctly either he would be a monster in his use or a nobody since gradation air is a practically useless skill for normal magi.

Edit: i meant it as taugth magecraft correctly, he would have his circuits working properly, but depending on the teachings he could be taught that GA is useless... nvm the moment his element and origin are 'discovered' GA is going to become awesom for him.

 

[Avider]

???

He is using Gradation Air correctly. It's just his image is a hell lot better than anybody's else because of UBW.

He got screwed up with his circuits, not the spell Gradation Air.

 

[Cherry_lover]

What are you talking about? It has everything to do with discarding his ideal. Shirou's world and Archer's world are the same, it's called Unlimited Blade Works. There's a few cosmetic changes because their personality is different because of their life experience, but it's still the same world.

HF shirou is a completely different matter and the route beats you over the face with that fact.

That is not how Reality Marbles work. Once you have one, it does not just go away. Plus, Shirou is stated to be able to use one in the HF True epilogue.

I mean, Archer himself has given up on the ideal, so if anything he'd be closer to HF Shirou than to UBW Shirou.

I mean, did you zap all those arguments and soul searching Shirou goes through the night where he has to decide whether to kill Sakura or not? Archer says it plainly.

No, I didn't. But, given that his ideal is "save everyone", killing Sakura when she has (to his knowledge) done nothing wrong and is not an immediate danger clearly goes against that.

That's what it is about, to stop trying to save everyone and to decides to save a single person. He spends a long time agonizing over that dilemma until Illya tells him simply that "she'll always be on Shirou's side because she loves him" and that sets him free. He discards his old resolve in favor of a new one, and not something as light as "I'll save that poor, poor innocent girl" but "I'll save Matou Sakura, the girl I love, no matter what!" Morals and righteousness has nothing to do with it, he just loves Sakura and decide to stand by her side.

Whilst that is true, given what he knew at that point in time the correct way to follow his ideal was still to try to save Sakura. Plus, at that point he makes the decision that, if she goes mad, he'll ensure that he kills her before she kills anyone else. So, he clearly still cared about saving everyone.

Later on, he becomes more firmly in favour of saving Sakura regardless (particularly when he makes the second decision), but even then he still wants to save the rest of the world as well. So, whilst he claims to have discarded his ideal, honestly he hasn't really. He's just shifted the emphasis towards saving Sakura over others. He still wants to save as many people as he can.

But, anyway, this is irrelevant, because none of what you've said proves any kind of connection between discarding his ideals and not being able to use Archer's UBW.

Nope, UBW is born of Shirou's single-minded devotion to his ideal.

Reality Marbles do not work that way.

We see its birth during the Shirou vs Gilgamesh fight, when Shirou comes to term with how hollow and impossible his ideal is and decides to follow it to the bitter end anyway.

No, we don't. Shirou already had his Reality Marble, he just didn't know how to use it.

Fate Shirou traces by imagining the weapons in his mind. Before his fight with Gilgamesh, UBW Shirou did it the same way or copied the weapons his opponents used.

Which is an application of UBW. The reason Shirou can copy swords that he has seen is because they're stored in UBW.

The only Shirous who use UBW for tracing are the ones... who have access to UBW.

So, all of them, then?

Seriously, Rin states in the HF True epilogue that Shirou could use his Reality Marble if he trained himself. You can't get much clearer than that....

Perhaps I should say that I feel the Heaven's Feel Shirou wasn't able to realize UBW as effectively as UBW route Shirou was because his ideals changed his UBW and the fact he had Archer's arm trying to impose its own UBW caused a conflict which limited its ability.

But UBW does not work that way. For one thing, Archer himself has long discarded that ideal.

A: By reproducing stuff that are right in front of him or were contained in his body for a decade.

And, how does he do that in a way which normal magi could not?

A: Not doing the same way as everyone else because his incomplete training left it to focus only on that.

Incomplete training doesn't usually cause you to do something 20 times better than someone who knows what they're doing....

Don't particularly care, as I'm only concerned with the single bolded sentence that isn't based on anything in the VN.

No, it's based on the Side Material books, which are canon.

 

[shioran toushin]

actually there are Shirous that don't posess the UBW because something else happened during the fire and his subsecuent rebirth as a blade, he wasn't in the fire or the fire didn't happen.

but then almost certainly we would not be talking about Emiya Shiro at all.

 

[Cherry_lover]

actually there are Shirous that don't posess the UBW because something else happened during the fire and his subsecuent rebirth as a blade, he wasn't in the fire or the fire didn't happen.

but then almost certainly we would not be talking about Emiya Shiro at all.

Even that isn't entirely clear, although you're right that it seems likely that, without Avalon, his Reality Marble would at very least be somewhat different (due to the change in his origin).

 

[Amodelsino]

CM3 outright says he can only use the Reality Marble UBW because Avalon changed his alignment to sword.

Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[daniel_gudman]

About that. What does Shirou having an alignment of "sword" even mean? I thought it might be a bit of a joke: because Shirou is the player character, he's the sword of the player, so to speak, so that's his alignment. But that's probably more metagame than Nasu gets, so I'm not sure.

What about his origin? Because I was under the impression that his origin was sword from birth; I mean, I suppose it could have been changed during the fire, but really, it seems a little... random. I mean...

Okay, example. Kiritsugu has a dual origin: Severing and Binding. This fits; he became obsessed with justice, and not just any justice but a specific, bizarre kind, where some are sacrificed--Severing--to save a greater remainder--Binding. So it's not so much "justice", really, as a kind of ruthless utilitarianism. He'd be willing to use somebody as vampire bait so he could kill the vampire. Not really justice, but it is for the "greater good" (Now I'm thinking about Dumbledore and Kiritsugu, like, hanging out or something. Anyway). So when it's said, "when a magus becomes awakened to their origin, it defines their existence", I really felt Kiritsugu embodied that.

But I didn't really feel that with Shirou. Like, his whole conflict is that he really wants to believe in Kiritsugu's "justice", but it doesn't really work for him. Like, in the HF route, he's willing to totally reject this whole justice thing and just protect one person--in short, become a sword for Sakura. And EMIYA, who held to that idea of "justice" strongly for his whole life, but also reached that pinnacle of self-awareness, the thaumaturgy of "Reality Marble", was so conflicted and unhappy he literally tried to erase himself from existence.

So I'm seeing the struggle between "justice" and "sword" in Shirou, but I'm not seeing where "sword" came from the fire. I mean... as far as he knew, swords had jack-all to do with it. Like his origin might become "retribution" or "justice" after that, but "swords" is a little... it's a concrete object. Yeah there's the whole "forged in fire" thing but that really feels like a coincidence. I guess you might be able to swing the whole "survivor's guilt" thing (especially since Kiritsugu was so chock full of guilt he probably made Shirou's worse), but in that case wouldn't his origin simply be "guilt" or "atonement"?

Does anyone know the rationale for Shirou's origin?

 

[Amodelsino]

Because swords are fundamentally a weapon of protection? You don't use a sword to assassinate someone (well you could, but that's not what they're made for), you use it to protect your own life (even if you instigated the conflict that results in you needing to).

Basically Shirou needs to have something to protect. He's a human with the 'mind' of a sword. "Justice" and "Retribution" don't fit Shirou at all, since they wouldn't cause the whole "All lives are more important than my own" thing. I suppose shield would work too, but it doesn't fit with his suicidal need to throw himself at the enemy.

 

[wingthesword]

Can anybody get me a link to a download of FSN?

 

[Amodelsino]

<a href='http://www.google.com' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Here.</a>

 

[Garlak]

<a href='http://www.google.com' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Here.</a>

... :sweat:

That is spectacularly unhelpful.



If you want to go through Fate/Stay Night, the first thing that came to mind was a guy's youtube account: <a href='http://www.youtube.com/user/XerBlade' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>this guy has the routes recorded and translated</a>. Just search out the Fate/Stay Night: prologue folder in the playlists, and then start moving on to the other routes.

Though, it would take a long time to watch through all of them.

 

[wingthesword]

I wanted to play not watch someone else play it.

Also Ekidou would not work on Touma real or traced because God is the person closest to the person above God in the To Aru verse. Touma is beyond Holy or Divine, you actually need a new word for him.

Imagine Breaker negates magic, esp, luck and casualty.

If Touma touched Gae Bolg after it pierced him then the spear is dissolved for being a legend/supernatural undoing it's ability which is the reversal of casualty so Touma was never pierced.

Espers project their internal reality onto the world so they can use esper powers. Touma negates them anyway. UBW is negated by Imagine Breaker.

Imagine Breaker punched an object in the 11th dimension, fuck Gae Bolg.

 

[Amodelsino]

<a href='http://www.google.com' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Here.</a>

... :sweat:

That is spectacularly unhelpful.

That's the point.

The only way to fail at finding a torrent for this game is to be incredibly lazy.

 

[Garlak]

<a href='http://www.google.com' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Here.</a>

... :sweat:

That is spectacularly unhelpful.

That's the point.

The only way to fail at finding a torrent for this game is to be incredibly lazy.

... I've heard it's a bear to find one that's translated though?

 

[Amodelsino]

It's not. Also: <a href='http://mirrormoon.org/projects/fate_stay_night' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>mirrormoon.</a>

 

[Belgarion213]

I wanted to play not watch someone else play it.

Also Ekidou would not work on Touma real or traced because God is the person closest to the person above God in the To Aru verse. Touma is beyond Holy or Divine, you actually need a new word for him.

Imagine Breaker negates magic, esp, luck and casualty.

If Touma touched Gae Bolg after it pierced him then the spear is dissolved for being a legend/supernatural undoing it's ability which is the reversal of casualty so Touma was never pierced.

Espers project their internal reality onto the world so they can use esper powers. Touma negates them anyway. UBW is negated by Imagine Breaker.

Imagine Breaker punched an object in the 11th dimension, fuck Gae Bolg.

How does that work? The spears ability is that effect and cause are reversed so the effect is the thrust of the spear through his heart but the cause is his heart is pieced. That makes sense.

If Touma TOUCHED the spear on its WAY to his chest i could buy it, though since that's something else entirely im not sure how he would do it unless the spear decided the easiest way to his heart is to go through his right hand, for some godforsaken reason.

However if you mean 'after its pieced'...how exactly does that STOP the effect? Sure the spear is negated now...but Touma has just had a big spear stabbed in his heart. Suddenly the spear is non magical or might be destroyed, i don't know...but he still has a big hole in his chest. I don't think the negation of its power is going to suddenly heal him.

 

[Master of Squirrel-Fu]

I wanted to play not watch someone else play it.

Also Ekidou would not work on Touma real or traced because God is the person closest to the person above God in the To Aru verse. Touma is beyond Holy or Divine, you actually need a new word for him.

Imagine Breaker negates magic, esp, luck and casualty.

If Touma touched Gae Bolg after it pierced him then the spear is dissolved for being a legend/supernatural undoing it's ability which is the reversal of casualty so Touma was never pierced.

Espers project their internal reality onto the world so they can use esper powers. Touma negates them anyway. UBW is negated by Imagine Breaker.

Imagine Breaker punched an object in the 11th dimension, fuck Gae Bolg.

How does that work? The spears ability is that effect and cause are reversed so the effect is the thrust of the spear through his heart but the cause is his heart is pieced. That makes sense.

If Touma TOUCHED the spear on its WAY to his chest i could buy it, though since that's something else entirely im not sure how he would do it unless the spear decided the easiest way to his heart is to go through his right hand, for some godforsaken reason.

However if you mean 'after its pieced'...how exactly does that STOP the effect? Sure the spear is negated now...but Touma has just had a big spear stabbed in his heart. Suddenly the spear is non magical or might be destroyed, i don't know...but he still has a big hole in his chest. I don't think the negation of its power is going to suddenly heal him.

Touma is unhurt because...

...While Gae Bolg has the effect set you still need the cause and if the cause is somehow stoped than there can be no effect, it just paradoxs itself into not hapening

...Plot Armor

...Because Magic!




Pick one.

 

[trevelyan1983]

If Touma TOUCHED the spear on its WAY to his chest i could buy it, though since that's something else entirely im not sure how he would do it unless the spear decided the easiest way to his heart is to go through his right hand, for some godforsaken reason.

Even if Touma touched the spear as it's moving towards him, his heart has already been stabbed.

<a href='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0CzD8BjYN8' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Here's a visualisation of Gae Bolg going around something from F/UC.</a>

 

[Garlak]

I wanted to play not watch someone else play it.

Also Ekidou would not work on Touma real or traced because God is the person closest to the person above God in the To Aru verse. Touma is beyond Holy or Divine, you actually need a new word for him.

Imagine Breaker negates magic, esp, luck and casualty.

If Touma touched Gae Bolg after it pierced him then the spear is dissolved for being a legend/supernatural undoing it's ability which is the reversal of casualty so Touma was never pierced.

Espers project their internal reality onto the world so they can use esper powers. Touma negates them anyway. UBW is negated by Imagine Breaker.

Imagine Breaker punched an object in the 11th dimension, fuck Gae Bolg.

How does that work? The spears ability is that effect and cause are reversed so the effect is the thrust of the spear through his heart but the cause is his heart is pieced. That makes sense.

If Touma TOUCHED the spear on its WAY to his chest i could buy it, though since that's something else entirely im not sure how he would do it unless the spear decided the easiest way to his heart is to go through his right hand, for some godforsaken reason.

However if you mean 'after its pieced'...how exactly does that STOP the effect? Sure the spear is negated now...but Touma has just had a big spear stabbed in his heart. Suddenly the spear is non magical or might be destroyed, i don't know...but he still has a big hole in his chest. I don't think the negation of its power is going to suddenly heal him.

Touma is unhurt because...

...While Gae Bolg has the effect set you still need the cause and if the cause is somehow stoped than there can be no effect, it just paradoxs itself into not hapening

...Plot Armor

...Because Magic!




Pick one.

I would like to remind you that Fragarach, the Answerer, That Which Comes Later Cuts First, works by retroactively punching your opponent in the face... like a boss!

And it STILL does not stop Gae Bolg.

So even if the Cause is stopped, the Effect still happens.

Paradox is not enough to stop Gae Bolg.



You need LUCK in the Nasuverse definition of the term which is basically "your alignment with a higher power's goals." Berserker, who gets offed in every route like Worf, has a high LUCK stat of B. Lancer himself has a LUCK of E; probably because of the way he was dicked around by multiple Geass in his life. Nasuverse LUCK stat is a very technical term, same as Nasuverse word "mystery"...


... actually...

Holy crap.

Touma might actually survive Gae Bolg after all!

While his personal luck sucks, as the bearer of Imagine Breaker, he might be said to have a high LUCK stat.


Huh. For once Touma is (probably) going to survive something due to fortune.

 

[ringlhach]

And is then immediately killed by blood loss. /trollface

 

[nairit]

Only to come back from the dead 2 days later, as he breaks the illusion of hell.

Or something.

Its all quantum./

 

[Amodelsino]

And is then immediately killed by blood loss. /trollface

Yeah, high LCK just stops it from stabbing you in the heart. You've still got a big ass hole in your chest.

 

[Avider]

I would like to remind you that Fragarach, the Answerer, That Which Comes Later Cuts First, works by retroactively punching your opponent in the face... like a boss!

And it STILL does not stop Gae Bolg.

So even if the Cause is stopped, the Effect still happens.

Paradox is not enough to stop Gae Bolg.

Not quite. Fragarach works by relying on the World to erase the attack, it relies on time to erase the cause.

There's still a cause, it just gets overwritten because it should be impossible, since Lancer's already dead so how could he...?

That kind of secondary removal's not gonna be enough to stop Gae Bolg.

 

[Avider]

About that. What does Shirou having an alignment of "sword" even mean? I thought it might be a bit of a joke: because Shirou is the player character, he's the sword of the player, so to speak, so that's his alignment. But that's probably more metagame than Nasu gets, so I'm not sure.

What about his origin? Because I was under the impression that his origin was sword from birth; I mean, I suppose it could have been changed during the fire, but really, it seems a little... random. I mean...

Okay, example. Kiritsugu has a dual origin: Severing and Binding. This fits; he became obsessed with justice, and not just any justice but a specific, bizarre kind, where some are sacrificed--Severing--to save a greater remainder--Binding. So it's not so much "justice", really, as a kind of ruthless utilitarianism. He'd be willing to use somebody as vampire bait so he could kill the vampire. Not really justice, but it is for the "greater good" (Now I'm thinking about Dumbledore and Kiritsugu, like, hanging out or something. Anyway). So when it's said, "when a magus becomes awakened to their origin, it defines their existence", I really felt Kiritsugu embodied that.

But I didn't really feel that with Shirou. Like, his whole conflict is that he really wants to believe in Kiritsugu's "justice", but it doesn't really work for him. Like, in the HF route, he's willing to totally reject this whole justice thing and just protect one person--in short, become a sword for Sakura. And EMIYA, who held to that idea of "justice" strongly for his whole life, but also reached that pinnacle of self-awareness, the thaumaturgy of "Reality Marble", was so conflicted and unhappy he literally tried to erase himself from existence.

So I'm seeing the struggle between "justice" and "sword" in Shirou, but I'm not seeing where "sword" came from the fire. I mean... as far as he knew, swords had jack-all to do with it. Like his origin might become "retribution" or "justice" after that, but "swords" is a little... it's a concrete object. Yeah there's the whole "forged in fire" thing but that really feels like a coincidence. I guess you might be able to swing the whole "survivor's guilt" thing (especially since Kiritsugu was so chock full of guilt he probably made Shirou's worse), but in that case wouldn't his origin simply be "guilt" or "atonement"?

Does anyone know the rationale for Shirou's origin?

I quoted CM3 like, last page.

Alignment = Sword, Origin = Sword, both because of Avalon.

Now, what does Sword actually mean?

D:

Probably more to do with Shirou's self-sacrificial tendencies than guilt or wutever.