Nasuverse A Different Path

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#26
on the issue of tracing Katana, we've established that any historical blade would be boosted simply because it was done in Japan.

But what would happen if Shiro traced a noble phantasm that's still in existance? You know, the Kusanagi? The Japanese government would like for us to believe they still have this historic blade and not some remake either.... so, what would happen? Or better yet, could he get it?
 

Lord of Bones

Well-Known Member
#27
The Eromancer said:
on the issue of tracing Katana, we've established that any historical blade would be boosted simply because it was done in Japan.

But what would happen if Shiro traced a noble phantasm that's still in existance? You know, the Kusanagi? The Japanese government would like for us to believe they still have this historic blade and not some remake either.... so, what would happen? Or better yet, could he get it?
Isn't the Kusanagi the sword of Susano-o? If that's the case, it's a divine mythical weapon.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#28
As I recall, it's also from before the katana was invented - which makes it not a katana. I don't see a Shinsengumi wanting to bust out Hirazuki with a Tsurugi, to be quite honest.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#29
Then have Shiro go UP to the emperor and tell him whats been going on. The man may be nothing more than a mere figure head these days just like jolly ol' England but he DOES command more respect.

Besides, how many fic out there do we see with the Emperor getting involved, eh?
Isn't the Kusanagi the sword of Susano-o? If that's the case, it's a divine mythical weapon.
Heh, I didn't know that. Very cool, why isn't this being done???
As I recall, it's also from before the katana was invented - which makes it not a katana. I don't see a Shinsengumi wanting to bust out Hirazuki with a Tsurugi, to be quite honest.
I do not believe that the Kusanagi no Ken would be somthing of a mere Chinese strait sword, in fact that's kind of an insult isn't it? Besides, who says Shino will HAVE to use Hirazuki? There are other styles you know.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#30
The Eromancer said:
Then have Shiro go UP to the emperor and tell him whats been going on. The man may be nothing more than a mere figure head these days just like jolly ol' England but he DOES command more respect.

Besides, how many fic out there do we see with the Emperor getting involved, eh?
That's because the Emperor doesn't make personal appearances 99% of the time. Simply put, one does not simply walk into the Emperor's presence without first being invited.

Isn't the Kusanagi the sword of Susano-o? If that's the case, it's a divine mythical weapon.
Heh, I didn't know that. Very cool, why isn't this being done???
Dunno, but it wasn't Susano-o's sword for long. He gave it to Amaterasu, and she in turn gave it to the first Japanese Emperor.

However, it being of "divine mythical weapon" status does raise a question. Thing is, UBW can't replicate weaponry unless the materials needed for its forging exist in the world (or did at the latest point in his history, in the case of Archer and his bow made of futuristic materials). If one of the key materials in the making of the weapon was something that no longer exists (reference Gilgamesh's Ea), he can't copy it.

The Kusanagi no Tsurugi (for the record, also known as "Ama no Murakumo no Ken") might be such a case - after all, where are there any giant eight-headed god-snakes left in the world?

As I recall, it's also from before the katana was invented - which makes it not a katana. I don't see a Shinsengumi wanting to bust out Hirazuki with a Tsurugi, to be quite honest.
I do not believe that the Kusanagi no Ken would be somthing of a mere Chinese strait sword, in fact that's kind of an insult isn't it?
Not at all - in fact, that happens to be the case with Kusanagi. It's a double-edged straight sword in all proper depictions within Japanese legends. The characteristic katana shape hadn't yet been invented at the time the Izumo legend began to circulate.

Besides, who says Shino will HAVE to use Hirazuki?? There are other styles you know.
Yeah, but the Hirazuki techniques are extremely iconic of the Shinsengumi. They were included as part of the official Shinsengumi training program.
Reasonable to expect that he'd use them.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#31
toraneko said:
Dunno, but it wasn't Susano-o's sword for long. He gave it to Amaterasu, and she in turn gave it to the first Japanese Emperor.

However, it being of "divine mythical weapon" status does raise a question. Thing is, UBW can't replicate weaponry unless the materials needed for its forging exist in the world (or did at the latest point in his history, in the case of Archer and his bow made of futuristic materials). If one of the key materials in the making of the weapon was something that no longer exists (reference Gilgamesh's Ea), he can't copy it.

The Kusanagi no Tsurugi (for the record, also known as "Ama no Murakumo no Ken") might be such a case - after all, where are there any giant eight-headed god-snakes left in the world?
Correction: it's not that '...materials needed for its forging exist in the world', he couldn't trace it because 'the materials in the creation of Ea have no earthly origin'. In other words, the materials that were used to make Ea never were from earth in the first place.

And anyway, that's not really sound logic. Dozens upon dozens of other mythical weapons that Shirou has already traced have similar origins. (e.g., Excalibur was created by the fairies. Gae Bolg was made from the bones of a sea monster.), I don't see any reason why the Kusanagi would be different.

trevelyan1983 said:
Japanese swords would get a boost from the home ground advantage and the various myths that surround them. Put that together with Hirazuki or Gatotsu, and you're cooking with gas.
...I don't think that means what you think it means.

You can't apply a fame boost just because of something like that... It's like, 'hey, let's use this katana in Japan and suddenly I'm all badass!'

Exaggerated a bit, but it's still the same thing. Even if he HAD a legendary sword, it wouldn't do anything. A fame boost is attached to a HERO, and unless Shirou were the hero attached to the Noble Phantasm, nothing would happen on that matter.

Lord of Bones said:
Prince Charon said:
We are raping canon here, so there's no reason why we can't give Shirou a Reality Marble and a plausible backstory on how he activated it.
Agreed.
"Oh, wow! Hey, you've got a Reality Marble too!"

"Meh... Well, my Reality Marble is cooler than either of yours!"

"Nuh UH! MY Reality Marble is better than ANYONE'S!"



Everyone was so shocked about Shirou's Reality Marble for a reason, people. They're only ONE STEP away from Magic. They're not that simple to create, and really, if you just say 'well, fuck it, it's cool so I'll use it', it just seems to cheapen the factor of it. Let's all whip out our penises and compare, yeah? Give him a Marble Phantasm for good measure.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#32
Fatuous One said:
trevelyan1983 said:
Japanese swords would get a boost from the home ground advantage and the various myths that surround them. Put that together with Hirazuki or Gatotsu, and you're cooking with gas.
...I don't think that means what you think it means.

You can't apply a fame boost just because of something like that... It's like, 'hey, let's use this katana in Japan and suddenly I'm all badass!'

Exaggerated a bit, but it's still the same thing. Even if he HAD a legendary sword, it wouldn't do anything. A fame boost is attached to a HERO, and unless Shirou were the hero attached to the Noble Phantasm, nothing would happen on that matter.

Everyone was so shocked about Shirou's Reality Marble for a reason, people. They're only ONE STEP away from Magic. They're not that simple to create, and really, if you just say 'well, fuck it, it's cool so I'll use it', it just seems to cheapen the factor of it.
Uhm. So the fame boost only applies to the hero? There goes that equalizer, then. It doesn't really matter which sword he traces, then - as long as it's a Shinsengumi Captain's blade, and thus capable of giving him Hirazuki.

As for the Reality Marble thing? It's what I think of as Super-Saiyan syndrome. As soon as everyone starts pulling it out of their asses, it stops being cool or interesting. In this context, a Shirou who is a master of tracing and reinforcing katanas, boosting his own physical abillities and using duelling tactics, would be the most interesting paradigm for fight scenes.

Given that he's narrowing his focus way down to those specifics, he could be a lot better in a fight than canon!Shirou. I could even see him getting as good as Archer in those two areas, if he ignored everything else. Watsuki's Saitou already had True Eye of the Mind, as well as high physical abilities and a narrow skill set. This is almost a transplant of those into F/SN.

EDIT: On the Hirazuki or no Hirazuki debate. If Shirou is meant to take after Saitou, he'll use Hirazuki. If he's meant to be Watsuki's Saitou, he'll use Gatotsu. If you want to use some other sword style, several of the Shinsengumi who were students of Tennen Rishin - Kondo and Okita come to mind.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#33
Still think having him somehow acquire the Kusanagi would be badass. :( If that isn't fesable then, oh well.

But back to sword-styles. Having him switching mid-combat between styles can completely thrown opponents off guard, so why not have him use all of them?
 

Shaderic

Well-Known Member
#34
...
this one knows VERY little about sword styles, but, if you've mastered a style to the point that another person can recognize it, you generaly don't have the energy/time to devote to learning another style, and figuring out how to switch really fast.
it's like... switching from a yoga pose to a Tai Chi movement. Poor description, but this one hopes the point gets across.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#35
You do know that when Shirou traces a weapon especially one that has history that he also gains knowledge on how to USE that weapon, right? For instance, he he traced a kaktana used by a swordmaster every time he called traced that particular katana he'd know the style of the sword master who used it.

Unless I'm wrong, in which case I can't be blamed, I got bad intel.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#36
True, but more specifically, that only applies when tracing Noble Phantasms... I think. I don't know for sure, as I don't recall there being a time when he traced something that wasn't a NP.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#37
toraneko said:
True, but more specifically, that only applies when tracing Noble Phantasms... I think. I don't know for sure, as I don't recall there being a time when he traced something that wasn't a NP.
Soooo theortically he could.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#38
Shirou doesn't gain the knowledge of how to use a weapon when he traces it.

The matter of tracing Noble Phantasms is the fact that Shirou traces the NP's memories and history into its image as well as all the other elements. In other words, he traces all the battles and such its been through.

From that, he is able to basically use a weapon from its own memory, think of it like muscle memory. He has no consciousness of that knowledge, but he instinctively knows how to use it because of the placed memories.

Something like would normally be impossible for a human to imagine, since they WOULD literally have to have all those memories in their conscious mind, but Shirou has a shortcut: Unlimited Blade Works. His Reality Marble stores all that information from just having Shirou observe the weapon.

In other words, no. If he traced Excalibur, and then traced Durandel, he doesn't suddenly have the ability to switch between the two styles of those blades on any old sword (disregarding that Excalibur is more like a broad sword, and Durandel is something of a long sword).

And on a side note, him copying the styles doesn't mean that he's some mirror image of their wielders. His image will never match up perfectly, and that's not even taking in various stats, so it's not like he can fight against them with it, or even get tipped off onto their combat styles.

Moreover, this Shirou wouldn't even have UBW, so it's all moot.

trevelyan1983 said:
Uhm. So the fame boost only applies to the hero? There goes that equalizer, then. It doesn't really matter which sword he traces, then - as long as it's a Shinsengumi Captain's blade, and thus capable of giving him Hirazuki.
It's less 'only applies to Heroes', and more 'this is part of what being a Hero means.' All known Eirei get fame boosts, as it's part of the package, it's just that it would be greater if they were in territory that recognizes them more vividly.

What I mean is, it's not so much that it doesn't necessarily apply to a weapon, but that it needs to be attached to the weapon that's attached to the hero. Fame. You know? Just like how the crystallized mystery of a Noble Phantasm won't do as much out of the hands the of hero that wields it, fame doesn't just 'attach' itself to some smuck that picks up a legendary blade. You can't have one without the other.

There are exceptions, of course (one right there being Shirou and Archer with their Tracing) but I don't really see how something like that would apply in this case.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#39
So then what would happen if Shirou got his hands on hmmm, lets say a rather OLD strait boken from Taiga's house, never mind it just so happens to be a family heirloom and was once supposed to be a boat ore?

Yes that's right, I can honestly see Taiga JUST happen to have Musashi Minamoto's Legendary boat-ore Boken. It makes so much sense. :ph43r:
 
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