A generic rant.

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#1
Has anyone noticed how, in a good amount of anime and manga, the male main is usually paired with an incredibly abusive main female?

It makes me wonder about whether the authors are closet sadists who LIKE to see their creations suffer. Just look at the various anime out there...

Keitaro/Naru? Check.

Ranma/Akane? Check.

Ryo/Kaori? Check, although Ryo asks for it most of the time, being a complete and open pervert who has boners in public...

Naruto/Sakura? Check, and Kishimoto is stupid for that. :sweat: :headbanger:

Shinji/Asuka? Check. Argh. The world ends, and of all women, HER.

Negi/Asuna? Check, although Asuna isn't nearly as bad as others in this thread.

I could probably gop on, but am too tired to keep it up.

Anyway... why do you think there is this tendency? Discuss, it should be interesting.
 

Lord Raa

Exporter of Juice Tins
#2
You raise a good point.

Perhaps the authors are into S&M?

Maybe it's a requirement for shonen manga/anime?
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#3
Also notice how the mangas written by female authors have more agressive female main characters?

Ryo/Kaori? Check, although Ryo asks for it most of the time, being a complete and open pervert who has boners in public...
I think that not even Belldandy would stay calm with Ryo aroun, and Kaori is just human. Come on the guy banged over 30 women in two weeks.., Unlike the other pervs he is a perv that actually takes action.
 

Israfel

Well-Known Member
#4
Meh, we've talked about this before, I'm pretty sure we just came to the conclusion that because Japanese women have always been supposed to be subserviant housewive types for hundreds of generations the Japanese male secretly desires the strong dominant, even so far as to be abusive, type of female.
 

runestar

Well-Known Member
#5
Perhaps that's how the authors milk the concept for all it's worth?

2 equally submissive and quiet main characters would be quite boring(though it could make for a fairly romanctic theme), 2 ultra-violent characters would be, I dunno, might work...

I guess it is the old give and take concept. After all, if it is an old concept, it would be old for one undeniable reason - it works. :lol: It's probably some winning formula that never fails, hence the reason why it is used so often. :sisi:
 

Lord Raa

Exporter of Juice Tins
#6
Perhaps it could be interesting to have that agression channelled in different way?

For example, Urd is not violent, but she is somewhat more agressive than Keiichi.

Perhaps that is why people like the idea of Keiichi/Urd ?
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#7
There are good manga's with lots of fans that don't involve the usual main agressive female. Also i don't think it's any man dream to have his head removed. :sweat:

On the other way the Urd type of agression needs more presence in manga. :p
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
#8
One thing that's interesting to consider is that a lot of manga often have character fan polls as an extra (and even if they don't, it's not usually too hard to find out who the most popular girl in a series is), and a lot of the time the favorite girl of the fans is the one most traditionally like the stereotypical Japanese housewife.

I recall reading, for example, that Shinobu was the favorite of Love Hina, and that Nodoka and Yue were among the favorites for Negima, etc.
 

runestar

Well-Known Member
#9
It seems most of them have a thing for quiet, shy and submissive girls... :sweat: Can't say I blame them...the alternative seems so much worse... :lol:
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#10
I'd also like to chip in my two cents.

1) It's funny that Asuna tends to take lots of crap, despite filliing the role of Generic Abusive Female Lead, a role that would normally mean she'd be exempt from most all kinds of trouble.

2) Suzumiya Haruhi, of Suzumiya Haruhi no Yuutsu, probably belongs on the list. She doesn't physically or (intentionally) emotionally harm the male lead, but her abrasive personality squashes all in her path equally.
Either way, I love the show. Love the Mikuru!
 

Legacy|iB

Well-Known Member
#11
I can't account for most of the aforementioned pairings, but for Keitaro/Naru, I think it works out. I'm more in favour of their relationship because they go good together - while in real life, two foils would never go well, in manga and fanfiction, what the heck? It's more interesting, and seeing how Love Hina is mostly nonsense, it all works. And besides, seeing how Keitaro is pretty much invincible, there doesn't seem to be much of a problem there.

And also, I think a Keitaro/Naru pairing is actually quite rare. I've never actually seen more than a half dozen of them, compared to the near infinate number of Keitaro/Motoko stories.
 

SimmyC

Well-Known Member
#12
Why do you think I usually dispise the canon pairing in most Japanese series? The violent girl type always wins, and I always hate them! :angry: I mean, yeah, probably does show that Japanese men are a bunch of masochist. But, given that a number of them are writen by females (Inuyasha, Ranma, etc.) could also be a female raging against the horrid, in their view, mysoginistic society. :p

Hence why one of the few couples I like, involves the girl in my signature, and Keiichi. ^_^ Yes, I do like the alternatives (I usually do. Even in Ranma, if Ranma chose Kasumi instead of Akane, I would still like to see alternatives just cause), but I don't hate the coupling either.
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#13
I always like the pairings in:
Aishteruzu Baby.
Ai Yori Aoshi.

The first has a bumpy relationship bbetween the two but centered more around the facts of real life. Also no violence there!

The second looks a bit (more) like Love Hina but again no violence from the female lead..


Belldandy/Keiichi is also a favorite for me. ^_^


So it is possible to have a good manga without violence. -_-
 

Trunkyboy

Well-Known Member
#14
Don't get me started on the unfairness of having abuse girl leads get the guy in anime... Thank God for fanfiction ^^
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#15
Trunkyboy said:
Don't get me started on the unfairness of having abuse girl leads get the guy in anime... Thank God for fanfiction ^^
Well, ranting about it is the exact reason why I posted this topic. The only reason why it isn't in my rant section is because this is relevant to anime fanfiction.
 

Israfel

Well-Known Member
#16
There are good manga's with lots of fans that don't involve the usual main agressive female. Also i don't think it's any man dream to have his head removed.?
Obviously, but you can't deny that there is somewhat of a trend towards it. Also, it's obviously no man's dream to 'have his head cut off' but that's in the anime, and anime is always somewhat exagerrated from real life so obviously it's not what they would want to happen but it is a reflection (and somewhat of a a hyperbole) of what they want.
 

Alzrius

Well-Known Member
#17
Israfel said:
Obviously, but you can't deny that there is somewhat of a trend towards it. Also, it's obviously no man's dream to 'have his head cut off' but that's in the anime, and anime is always somewhat exagerrated from real life so obviously it's not what they would want to happen but it is a reflection (and somewhat of a a hyperbole) of what they want.
Yes, but then the question becomes, what is it that anime is saying (in a ridiculously over-exaggerated way) that guys want? A girl who can, and will, beat the crap out of them?

Personally, I think it's a dominance thing. Men tend to reinforce their self-image externally, and what woman (or women) they have has always been one of the primary ways to do that. Anyone could, in theory, "tame" a weak, submissive girl (like Love Hina's Shinobu), for example. But to take a violent, male-hating bitch and have her happily hanging on your arm (a la Naru) is a much larger accomplishment, one that much more loudly signals your manliness - after all, you must be a force to be reckoned with to have made such a shrew into your woman.

This all goes back to my Unified Theory of Manliness: that how much of a man you are is directly proportional to your ability to render other people unconscious; specifically by using your fists on other men, and a different body part on women. ;)
 

Israfel

Well-Known Member
#18
Personally, I think it's a dominance thing. Men tend to reinforce their self-image externally, and what woman (or women) they have has always been one of the primary ways to do that. Anyone could, in theory, "tame" a weak, submissive girl (like Love Hina's Shinobu), for example. But to take a violent, male-hating bitch and have her happily hanging on your arm (a la Naru) is a much larger accomplishment, one that much more loudly signals your manliness - after all, you must be a force to be reckoned with to have made such a shrew into your woman.
Hmm, that fits pretty well too, but I always thought it was just a 'grass is always greener on the other side' kind of thing, that because they've always had the typical weak submissive type they want to see what the other side is like.

This all goes back to my Unified Theory of Manliness: that how much of a man you are is directly proportional to your ability to render other people unconscious; specifically by using your fists on other men, and a different body part on women.á
Hehe, nice, that actually fits very well, sadly enough.
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#19
Alzrius said:
Personally, I think it's a dominance thing. Men tend to reinforce their self-image externally, and what woman (or women) they have has always been one of the primary ways to do that. Anyone could, in theory, "tame" a weak, submissive girl (like Love Hina's Shinobu), for example. But to take a violent, male-hating bitch and have her happily hanging on your arm (a la Naru) is a much larger accomplishment, one that much more loudly signals your manliness - after all, you must be a force to be reckoned with to have made such a shrew into your woman.
The problem with your theory is that in the majority of cases there's no taming - even after a steady relationshiop begins, the man always ends up being whipped buy the woman.

If you ask me, it's the exact opposite of what you suggest - it's a desire to BE dominated and put in their place. :sweat: Otherwise, there'd be an inversion in tendence along with the whole 'making her your woman' thing.

Anyone can get a bitch to hang off their arm - just cave in and do whatever she wants. It's not necessarily a sign of manliness, and in fact, it's often the number one sign that the male is not the one wearing pants in the relationship.

Whipped male syndrome. They pick the one girl who will dominate the household and end up being ordered around whether they want to or not, even when there's choices that would fit their personality much better than who they actually end up with.

The only borderline exception to this rule seems to be Keitaro, but it's a very, very, VERY unhealthy relationship - basically, they're together only because he's a masochist and she's a sadist (they flat out ADMIT it in Volume 14), but this kind of matchup never lasts, and can often have dire consequences. So I can't approve of it at all.
 

Terdwilicker

Well-Known Member
#20
Japanese Women

Part of their use is of contrast. Part is archetypes which are proven popular for readers. The origin for the archetype is in the Ainu, the original settlers of the isles of Japan 8k+ years ago. For millenia, they lived in dual manor houses in enclosed villages, basically thatch roofed cottages. The males in one building, the females and their children in the other. Women controlled the food, men hunted for it. Women were given control of most of the decisions by controlling who ate what and how much. There were no marriages, due to living in separate buildings. The tradition of calling an old man grandfather and an old woman grandmother began with the Ainu people, since in that system only a child's mother is known. The father could be anyone. These social norms were retained, at least linguistically and within the home so that a woman is meant to rule the home, to treat the man of the house like a child. Bathing him, tending to his needs, babying him. I expect there's plenty of disagreement of this depending on who you talk to, but its a cultural thing which continues today.

This also has a lot to do with the falling marriage rates and birth rates. Japanese women want to be free, not domestic slaves. They want to act like Western women, american women in particular. They want lives of their own. In that respect, Naru is more accurate than you'd think. So is Kitsune, as a free spirit (so she claims), refusing to be tied down and turned into a slave. The only two who actually want to be tied down at Hinata are Shinobu and Mutsumi, though that's because they've found the man of their dreams (Keitaro). You can apply similar logic to other anime. Dual Paralell Trouble Adventure, where two domestically inclined fraternal twins (from separate dimensions), via for the usually passive male. One is Naru aggressive though clearly enamored with the hero, the other is mostly subservient and just as attracted to him. Most polls place the subservient girl as the preferred choice for the guy. Maybe the continuing use of the archetype is a less subtle form of cultural propaganda warning women that overly independent and aggressive actions will lose them potential mates to nicer girls?

In the meantime, Japan's population continues to fall. I wonder just how long it will be before they're really hurting from raising snotty hentai boys and overly independent women thanks to their oppressive sexist culture?
 

Israfel

Well-Known Member
#21
In the meantime, Japan's population continues to fall. I wonder just how long it will be before they're really hurting from raising snotty hentai boys and overly independent women thanks to their oppressive sexist culture?
Yah, in the old days there was a lot of pressure for a women to marry young and get pregnant, if a woman wasn't married by the time she turned 26 she was called a 'Christmas cake' because Christmas cakes are only good up until the 25th of December, after that, nobody buys them, it was considered much the same thing for woman. Now many woman are saying that they're not interested in getting married much less having before they turn thirty at least. Also, as the birth rate declines and less and less new people enter the work force more and more of the aging generation retires and is dependant on state funds for support, thus putting even more stress on their all ready crumbling economy, not to mention that because of all of this prices are skyrocketing making for even more homeless people and more people depending on the state for support. Within five years the ratio between people over 50 to those under twenty will be three to one and there are all ready schools that literally have only one student attending, and no new kids filling in the grades beneath them, thus the problem is further emphasized. So unless Japan does something very drastic very soon their entire economy, government, and country could come crashing down around them.
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#22
I'm surprised nobody brought Sailor Moon into the disscussion.

Granted the main char isn't agressive, but look at the ideals they have, a society dominated by womans (woman-male ratio 10-1 :sweat: ) where women take all the decisions and have all the power (Endimyon is more of a decoration as i see it.)

The only males with power that we see in CT are the enemy. :sweat:

This all goes back to my Unified Theory of Manliness: that how much of a man you are is directly proportional to your ability to render other people unconscious; specifically by using your fists on other men, and a different body part on women. wink.gif
*Einstein Pose* Yes... this theory has many facts supporting it. But not specifieing what type of woman is a mistake in the ecuation...
 

SimmyC

Well-Known Member
#23
The falling birth rates is true for all Western nations. The only reason why the United States is growing in popuation, is due to immigration from our 'friendly' neighbor to the south. <_< Europe is in a similar situation with falling birthrates for their native popuation, while they import TONS of people from their former colonies. Of course, economically speaking, Europe really shouldn't be doing this since their economy isn't as strong as it should be. I mean, France has an unemployment rate of around 10%? And they want to import more? At least with the United States, we have plenty of jobs to go around. Even to the illegals.

Of course, Japan's situation is a little different in that, they are NOT encouraging immigration. Hence, why their population is falling in real numbers so to speak while the United States and Europe have a growing immigration population. Same is true for Russia (though at least Russia could blame their economy, which, while growing, still FAR from where Japan is).

And IMO, again, I blame this on culture. It isn't that I don't believe that women should be 'free' or have a decision on their own, it's just, well, the 'independent' women who doesn't want kids and so forth (because they have been told how bad it is. And why they should only care about themselves), is, like in Japan, setting up their own nation for ruin. Now, they could go the US route and immigrate everyone, but that isn't solving the population/economic problem, that's just shifting it to another group (a group that isn't as well educated as the ones that are refusing to have children generally speaking). And if they don't pay taxes (like illegals here), than they are not contributing majorly to the well being of the nation either (sure, they keep prices low. But who is going to pay for their healthcare?).

The irony here is the fact that, if the only people having babies are conservative religious people... guess who takes over when everyone else starts dying off? :sisi:
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#24
The irony here is the fact that, if the only people having babies are conservative religious people... guess who takes over when everyone else starts dying off? sisi.gif
The irony of it all...

No more babies from the rest >>> religious people take over, how many groups there have women as equall? :sweat:

There are countryes with a rate of birth over the charts, main problem? They don't have WHAT to do with the babies, so they have a high mortality rate for infants, thiefs and so on.

One fine example? India, they just keep breeding like rabbits there. <_<
 

SimmyC

Well-Known Member
#25
True. However, enough of those babies survive, and so they have a net gain in population (and India's economy is growing, and in turn, better healthcare follows).

India is after all, on its way to surpassing China as the number 1 population in the nation (remember, China has the 1 child policy).
 
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