Bleach A New World

[zerohour]

Calling bullshit on the third point. Soukyoku was never said to be equal to a million Bankai's. It was also never said to be equal to a million shikai's. It's likely equal to a million seal zanpakuto.

Failed right there, because you're calling me out for making an assumption, but then making an assumption.

The wording specifically states that it has the unleashed force of a million Zanpakuto. That's canon. A sealed blade is not "unleashed", no way, no how, not a chance.

The term unleashed force would logically be referring to the output of a Zanpakuto at full power. And the full power of a Zanpakuto would be Bankai. Thus, it follows that the Soukyoku has the force of a million Bankai's.


Also, the very fact that the Soukyoku is only used to execute those of titanic spiritual pressure and power is proof that the force it brings to bare is well beyond what any single Shinigami would be capable of unleashing. It is directly stated in the descriptions and dialogue that the Soukyoku exists to destroy individuals for whom other methods of execution would not work, simply because of the titanic scale of the individual's power. That by itself, if nothing else, affirms the concept that the Soukyoku possesses power beyond what any single individual should possess, barring truly extraordinary circumstances (like whatever-the-hell Ichigo is).

It's still debatable that Zangetsu is an potent doomsday weapon, since we don't know that the Death Chicken was at full power.

It obviously has some form of sentience, because it is canon that Zanpaktos are sentient, and even discarding that, it it were simply a mindless device, it would not have backed up to make a second attack, it would have just kept going towards the target in a straight line.

Given that it is sentient, we can also assume that it can sense the relative power levels of people/things in its vicinity, which is something that has been demonstrated in canon.

With these two points, we can infer that the Death CHicken wasn't using its full force.

Kenpachi Zaraki doesn't go all out unless he knows it's necessary. The same can be said for most captains/Vice Captains/shinigami/hollows/Arrancers/Tentaclemonsters.

Now, if you had the power of a million Bankai, would you bother to manifest all of that power and use it? Especially if the target of yoru unholy wrath had teh spiritual power on par with a mouse?

No. You'd use a tiny fraction of that power, since wasting all that force on a puny ant is stupid.

No, when a powerful spiritual entity imposes himself between you and the target of your wrath, you would proceed to unoeash more/all of your power, since the insignificant gnat thinks it can stand up against your full power, and you would most likely obliterate him, and a significant portion of the surrounding area, except you got hit by the plot device, and destroyed.

Don't cite me on it, but I think they actually say something about this in the manga. I'll see if I can find it after class.

 

[Ryuugi]

Calling bullshit on the third point. Soukyoku was never said to be equal to a million Bankai's. It was also never said to be equal to a million shikai's. It's likely equal to a million seal zanpakuto.

Failed right there, because you're calling me out for making an assumption, but then making an assumption.

The wording specifically states that it has the unleashed force of a million Zanpakuto. That's canon. A sealed blade is not "unleashed", no way, no how, not a chance.

The term unleashed force would logically be referring to the output of a Zanpakuto at full power. And the full power of a Zanpakuto would be Bankai. Thus, it follows that the Soukyoku has the force of a million Bankai's.


Also, the very fact that the Soukyoku is only used to execute those of titanic spiritual pressure and power is proof that the force it brings to bare is well beyond what any single Shinigami would be capable of unleashing. It is directly stated in the descriptions and dialogue that the Soukyoku exists to destroy individuals for whom other methods of execution would not work, simply because of the titanic scale of the individual's power. That by itself, if nothing else, affirms the concept that the Soukyoku possesses power beyond what any single individual should possess, barring truly extraordinary circumstances (like whatever-the-hell Ichigo is).

Also, isn't Konso what's used on normal souls? I'm pretty sure you have to use a Soul Cutter's edge to purify Hollows.

I'd imagine it has a lot to do with the fact that most Hollows are trying to eat your face. It's kind of stupid to leave yourself wide open and try and wack them with the pommel of your sword when you can get the same effect from stabbing them or cutting them.

Also, while I can't remember where, I distinctly remember a Plus being passed on from being cut with the edge of a Zanpakuto. That points to the methods being interchangeable, in that hitting them with the pommel or cutting them with the blade both do more or less the same thing.

In fact, Konso doesn't seem to be an actual technique so much as it is something that just happens automatically whenever you wack a spirit with a Zanpakuto. It's possible that the pommel-tap only exists so it doesn't traumatize Pluses.

Also, on the second possibility, Deathlords are made of more then one soul. They are the souls of Former God-Kings plus the soul of a 'dead' Third Circle Demon, enhanced by the Power of Cthulhu's brother, sister, wife, daughter, and or son.

Which means that, assuming we go with Konso being mostly absolute but only working on one thing, it's still a viable option. Meinos Grande have hundreds or even thousands of souls in them, which would logically make Konso'ing them impratical.

How many souls does a Deathlord have? Three? Maybe four? Five tops.

I like the odds of a technique that puts down a Deathlord for good in, at the very very outside, five hits.

Even if it didn't actually destroy them or get rid of them in any perminant manner, they're still getting large chunks of their essence and power blasted off of them. That can't be good for them.

Wasn't it refering to unleashed as "when Soukyoku was unleashed'? And it in no way had the power of a million Bankai. If it did, Ichigo would have died instantly.

Further more, we've seen people a lot stronger the Ichigo.

If memory serves, the blade of a soul cutter is specifically said to wash away the sins of a Hollow. Also, we've seen hollows cut a number of times, but they actually had to be killed to be purified.

I don't remember a plus passing on from being cut, but I'll look around.

Even the hollows with only one soul had to be killed to pass on. See: Orihime's Brother.

Also, Third Circle Souls are technically made of seven Second Circle Souls. So, eight actually.

As I said, five hits or a million, it won't matter.

It doesn't work that way, but even if it did, it wouldn't be good for them, but it wouldn't be bad either.

Raine's second post: Only if the blade kills them, which, as this is a Deathlord, it won't.

 

[Lord Raine]

Several of you are still trying to run under the assumption that a powerful single soul could shrug off a Konso simply because it was powerful. Don't, because there's no evidence at all that it works like that. You could be right, or you could be totally, totally wrong. It's up to the author on how he wants that to translate, because there's nothing to measure it against in canon.

And it in no way had the power of a million Bankai.

Yes it did. Canon fact. Which is why I'm surprised there aren't more people speculating about what Ichigo is going to pull out of nowhere, now that we seem to be nearing the end of the manga (at the very absolute least, I'd say we're half-way. Probably more).

You don't have to like it, but its still fact.

Also, nice try, but you can't argue the unleashed angle either. The Soukyoku was operating at full capacity simply by virtue of the fact that it was a "giant flaming bird".

When a normal Zanpakuto is sealed, it's small, and looks like a sword. When it goes Bankai, it becomes much, much larger and usually changes form completely.

When the Soukyoku was sealed, it looked like a massive spear. When it was "awakened", it became much, much larger and took the form of a colossal phoenix.

That's a Bankai transition if I've seen one.

If it did, Ichigo would have died instantly.

And now you finally understand why they're using it to execute people who are too powerful to get rid of any other way.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Yeah dude, neither instance says 'a million soul cutters unleashed'. Both times the destructive power is mentioned, once before the Gin vs. Hitsugaya fight and again by Soifon, all they say is a million soul cutters combined. It does say something about the power swelling at that time, but beyond that unleashed is never used. It's never defined beyond that simple statement.

Even arguing the form change, considering we've seen some weird crap for sealed blades (Granted only for Arrancar, but still weird crap is weird crap), that doesn't define much. Particularly since we've seen a shikai that pulls off the same base change. Unohana's to be specific, though I suppose one could argue Hitsugaya's, though that was more Ice control than anything, and there's heavy evidence he can choose the form of the ice itself.

Though rereading that chapter, Ichigo was awesome in that with raw power alone. Man that next arc screwed things up...

 

[Lord Raine]

Except that it's not based solely on that single statement. The very explaination of what it's used for affirms it. It's a mechanism that's used to execute individuals that are too powerful to be destroyed any other way. That means that, at the very least, it possesses power above and beyond that of any singluar entity that we've seen thus far (with the exception of Ichigo, for some unfathomable reason).

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Note however how said executions take place. The soul in question is held against the beam left prone for said attack. I have heavy doubts that a shinigami regardless of their power can handle a force containing a freaking million sealed blades rammed through their entire body at once particularly since they are unable to put up any defenses for said attack, let alone attempt to avoid it. That's not proof that all million blades are activated as bankai of all things, let alone shikai. Once we get into those kinds of numbers, that's plain overkill for a prone target who has no means of avoiding the blow.

Not even going into the fact that it was heavily implied that Ichigo wouldn't have been able to do it the second time when it recognized him as a target.

 

[Ryuugi]

Note however how said executions take place. The soul in question is held against the beam left prone for said attack. I have heavy doubts that a shinigami regardless of their power can handle a force containing a freaking million sealed blades rammed through their entire body at once particularly since they are unable to put up any defenses for said attack, let alone attempt to avoid it. That's not proof that all million blades are activated as bankai of all things, let alone shikai. Once we get into those kinds of numbers, that's plain overkill for a prone target who has no means of avoiding the blow.

Not even going into the fact that it was heavily implied that Ichigo wouldn't have been able to do it the second time when it recognized him as a target.

This.

 

[Lord Raine]

particularly since they are unable to put up any defenses for said attack, let alone attempt to avoid it.

Except for the fact that Shinigami don't have to put up a defense. A sufficently powerful individual can just stand there while you break your blade against their bare skin.

Sorry, but no. Shinigami defense works automatically. The more spiritual pressure they have, the harder it is to do anything to them. That's the sole reason Kenpachi is as badass as he is. His pressure is so enormous that even seated officers and other Captains have trouble hurting him in any significant manner.

1.) They're prone because they're freaking prone. No one in their right mind is going to stand there and let themselves be executed. Being restrained is a given.

2.) The fact that they're prone makes them no more or less vulnerable than they would otherwise be, because of how spiritual pressure works for Shinigami.


Nice try, but no dice.

 

[ttestagr]

If it has the force of a million zanpakutou, it has the force of a million released zanpakutou because the damn thing changed when it was used. It's that simple.

The bankai part is pure assumption.

 

[Lord Raine]

If it has the force of a million zanpakutou, it has the force of a million released zanpakutou because the damn thing changed when it was used. It's that simple.

The bankai part is pure assumption.

I believe I admitted as much myself, though I would like to point out that, given the nature of the transformation itself, it has more in common with Bankai than Shikai. We have yet to see a Shikai that turns the blade into an animal or other free-standing entity, but we have seen a lot of Bankai that do this.

 

[~NGD OMEGA~]

Unohana.

Secondly the defense bit is about the power of the blade being used (Zaraki mentioned the 'sharpening of reiatsu' bit, but all things considered that thing produces it's own energy as it needs a seal of the same power to hold it back). When you have a freaking million blades condensed into one, that's pretty much all the power you need. Note you can cut particularly powerful people if the blade is sealed. Ikkaku showed that much. Multiply that by a freaking million...

 

[zerohour]

As a counter to the Shinigami defense argument, the traditional punishment requires 30 days in the Tower of Penitence (or whatever it's called), and it's a canon fact that you can't regenerate spiritual power while in the tower (Rukia). It's somewhat likely that the stone can either actively drain spiritual power, or that spiritual power is simply emitted, assuming the person has at least some of it.

This would imply that the time spent in the tower serves two purposes.

1- Give the convict time to reflect on their misdeeds.

2- Weaken the convict so they can't escape/have a more difficult time escaping on the way to the execution ground.

It makes sense, because it would be difficult enough to stop a rampaging captain, let alone subdue them and tie them up to be executed without at least some method of weakening them.


Edit: Not trying to stop the argument, but I think this is appropriate.

 

[Ryuugi]

They also had something around Rukia's neck, which they attached tubes to, but I don't remember what those did.

 

[dunedrake]

Author's will trumps all

^_^

 

[ecs05norway]

My take on it:

Exalted is all about Heroes Kicking Ass.

Bleach is all about Heroes Kicking Ass.

Standard Shonen Manga/Anime Series Plot Device #1: The young prodigy asspulls the ability to defeat something OMGWTFPWN! far more powerful than him, simply because he's the Hero and he's That Cool.

Ichigo is supposed to be That Cool.

Konso'ing a Deathlord's ass and doing the impossible, just to start, with no clue what he's doing or that it's not supposed to be possible, is a Standard Trope. You guys should all know this.

Using this event as a trigger for the series, without Ichigo being able to repeat it (perhaps there is a simple defense, but this particular foe didn't expect that kind of attack so didn't use it), establishes him immediately as a Hero and cuts him loose to start shaking things up.

Which is what Exalted and Bleach are both all about.

 

[Cornuthaum]

The problem is that the Deathlords (Every. Single. One. Of. Them.) are the Gin, Tousen and Aizen put together, with a dollop of Espada on the side for good measure.

Their power level isn't just over 9000, the deathlords that are statted out completely like Mask of Winters in 2e Abyssals and ESPECIALLY the First and Forsaken Lion have so many broken abilities (most of them coming down to "No U" and then eviscerating the opposition) that fighting them without, oh, a few months of preparation and three-ish full circles of Essence 5 Celestial Exalts (that is 15 to 1 with ample preparation) is suicide, and even then you're looking at horribad terrifying losses.

When you fight a deathlord, you live until your perfect defenses run out, at which point they hack your body into pieces, rip out your soul, use it as armor, raise your body as a zombie and use your hungry ghost to fuel their war machine.

And while I love the Bleach cast, they just aren't Exalted. They don't have the total "No." PDs the Exalted have. But they can do the smart thing and OUTRUN the deathlords. Shunpo is awesome that way.

 

[biigoh]

I think it comes down to the fact that you're pitting -Bleach- cast against a Deathlord that you're going to run into people saying... that the Shinigami (do remember that they're the equivilant of heroic ghosts with artifacts, arcanoi, charms and spells vs a frikkin deathlord) are going to get raeped, the humans are going to get killed and than raeped.

Because I would give good odds against just about any other type of entity for the Bleach-cast.

 

[jbcarpen]

I'd say that a captain or better might have a decent shot at a newly exalted lunar. Anything solar class or better (or an experienced lunar) is going to roflpwn anyone from bleach hard.

Oh, and your comment about outrunning them with shunpo? Sorry, no, there are several charms that celestials can get that say "I don't care how fast you can run, I'm faster."

EDIT: Actually, a starting lunar can get ahold of the ability to say "I don't have time to die right now, so I wont." They can out ironman Kenpachi to a ridiculous degree.