Bleach Alternate Zanpakutos
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I've always been a fan of changing Ichigo's zanpakuto to represent his status as a hand to hand fighter at heart. Namely make the shikai gauntlets, grieves, or forms of arm and leg protection that work with his natural fighting style.
Besides, who here can't appreciate a konso that's a boot to the head or a massive bitchslap?
Besides, who here can't appreciate a konso that's a boot to the head or a massive bitchslap?
DrTempo said:
Canis said:
True enough, but like I said, I'd not given much thought to an Ichigo dies scenario - and just because he dies doesn't mean he can't become a Shinigami.
After all, aren't Shinigami dead already?
After all, aren't Shinigami dead already?
Just because the Hollow kills Ichigo's human body and wounds his spiritual one doesn't mean that Ichigo's going to become a hollow (I tend to follow off the manga for canon and I cannot recall anywhere in the manga where being eaten by a hollow makes you a hollow) or even becoming hollow food (Vol. 1, Chap. 4). It's fully possible that Ichigo's body could take mortal wounds, followed by Rukia killing the hollow then healing Ichigo's spiritual body before performing Konso.
It's a bit of a lame-o subversion of canon of course, but it's entirely plausible given that we do have evidence within the manga to support such a chain of events.
Anyway, this is starting to get old so how about somebody follow up on DhampyrX2's latest post. It looks interesting.
Canis said:
DrTempo said:
Canis said:
True enough, but like I said, I'd not given much thought to an Ichigo dies scenario - and just because he dies doesn't mean he can't become a Shinigami.
After all, aren't Shinigami dead already?
After all, aren't Shinigami dead already?
Just because the Hollow kills Ichigo's human body and wounds his spiritual one doesn't mean that Ichigo's going to become a hollow (I tend to follow off the manga for canon and I cannot recall anywhere in the manga where being eaten by a hollow makes you a hollow) or even becoming hollow food (Vol. 1, Chap. 4). It's fully possible that Ichigo's body could take mortal wounds, followed by Rukia killing the hollow then healing Ichigo's spiritual body before performing Konso.
It's a bit of a lame-o subversion of canon of course, but it's entirely plausible given that we do have evidence within the manga to support such a chain of events.
Anyway, this is starting to get old so how about somebody follow up on DhampyrX2's latest post. It looks interesting.
Edit: or was at least attacked by them.
I'd disagree with you on that. Rukia is, at best, seated officer material. We also have it from several sources that only Captain level Shinigami and their equivalent Hollow counterparts actually matter for shit in big fights, and that anyone who isn't of that level or above is completely expendable.
Rukia isn't surrounded by freaks. Freaks implies that they are individuals outside the norm. This isn't like Naruto, where half the named characters are geniuses, hidden geniuses, or uberprodigies that lie so far outside the acceptable parameters of deviation that it's a shock the Powers That Be haven't run experiments on them to find out why the hell all the people in the same peer group are goddamn monsters. We're dealing with a world where people can live for upwards of a thousand years, and possibly more. Captain level beings occur naturally, albeit rarely. Thus, they aren't deviations to the power scale, because you're naturally going to acquire a few dozen of them simply by matter of odds, if nothing else.
Rukia is Seated Officer material. Unfortunately, that basically qualifies her for Mook status, because Seated Officer level is essentially the Redshirt of the Bleachverse power scale. At best, she's an Elite Mook. Certainly not Protagonist material, though.
Raw power matters in Bleach. A lot. A whole whole lot. You can have all the skills, shiny powers, technical prowess, and Zanpakuto mastery in the world. But if your opponent has more power than you, you're almost certainly going to lose, and if they have enough, you won't even be able to scratch them even if they stood there and took your blows to the face. Pretty much every trick in the book, be it Shinigami or Hollow, runs off of the assumption that the user has a lot of raw power. Zanjutsu is pointless without raw power. Kido is pointless without raw power. Shunpo is pointless without raw power. Cero is pointless without raw power.
All the techniques and abilities are about using the power you have more effectively and efficiently. But if you don't have much power to begin with, learning all the tricks won't do you much good.
If he wasn't a freak of nature, he wouldn't be on the menu to eat. It's precisely because he has as much latent spiritual power as he does that he acts like a beacon for Hollows. If he didn't have his freakish power, he'd be in essencially zero danger, or as close to it as you can get in the Bleachverse.
They come after him because of his power. If you take away the power, yeah, he'd probably be food. But I'd like to ask why they would come after him in the first place if he didn't have the power.
That was anime only. He became a Hollow in the manga because he didn't pass on, and resented the fact that Orihime had moved on after his death.
Rukia isn't surrounded by freaks. Freaks implies that they are individuals outside the norm. This isn't like Naruto, where half the named characters are geniuses, hidden geniuses, or uberprodigies that lie so far outside the acceptable parameters of deviation that it's a shock the Powers That Be haven't run experiments on them to find out why the hell all the people in the same peer group are goddamn monsters. We're dealing with a world where people can live for upwards of a thousand years, and possibly more. Captain level beings occur naturally, albeit rarely. Thus, they aren't deviations to the power scale, because you're naturally going to acquire a few dozen of them simply by matter of odds, if nothing else.
Rukia is Seated Officer material. Unfortunately, that basically qualifies her for Mook status, because Seated Officer level is essentially the Redshirt of the Bleachverse power scale. At best, she's an Elite Mook. Certainly not Protagonist material, though.
Raw power matters in Bleach. A lot. A whole whole lot. You can have all the skills, shiny powers, technical prowess, and Zanpakuto mastery in the world. But if your opponent has more power than you, you're almost certainly going to lose, and if they have enough, you won't even be able to scratch them even if they stood there and took your blows to the face. Pretty much every trick in the book, be it Shinigami or Hollow, runs off of the assumption that the user has a lot of raw power. Zanjutsu is pointless without raw power. Kido is pointless without raw power. Shunpo is pointless without raw power. Cero is pointless without raw power.
All the techniques and abilities are about using the power you have more effectively and efficiently. But if you don't have much power to begin with, learning all the tricks won't do you much good.
If he wasn't a freak of nature, he wouldn't be on the menu to eat. It's precisely because he has as much latent spiritual power as he does that he acts like a beacon for Hollows. If he didn't have his freakish power, he'd be in essencially zero danger, or as close to it as you can get in the Bleachverse.
They come after him because of his power. If you take away the power, yeah, he'd probably be food. But I'd like to ask why they would come after him in the first place if he didn't have the power.
That was anime only. He became a Hollow in the manga because he didn't pass on, and resented the fact that Orihime had moved on after his death.
Rukia's on par with your non-bankai wielding vice-captains, as far as I can tell. Her Kido is incredible, her zanjutsu is unremarkable, her hakuda non-existent, and I don't recall her displaying Shunpo.
Her ability to use her Shikai is way above lower seats - recall, Urahara points out that lieutenants are set apart the most by their superior Shikai use. I don't have any illusions that she's on par with the Captains or Espada, but she's hardly a mook.
Her ability to use her Shikai is way above lower seats - recall, Urahara points out that lieutenants are set apart the most by their superior Shikai use. I don't have any illusions that she's on par with the Captains or Espada, but she's hardly a mook.
That's why I said Elite Mook, as opposed to straight-out Mook. Also, I'm pretty sure it was implied that being able to release Shikai at all was considered most of the qualification for being a Seated Officer. I'm tempted to say it's a flat-out prerequisite, but I can't remember if that's actually a fact, or if it's the Bankai necessary for Captaincy thing bleeding over into Shikai and seated officers in my memory.
Either way, I'd agree and disagree. Just being able to release Shikai puts her a whole level above about 90% of Soul Society, as even that isn't something everyone can do (remember: it's not just Bankai that only few people ever achieve. Most never even manage Shikai. Bankai means you're exceptional amongst the exceptional, the upper percentile of the upper percentile. The top 1-2%). However, that's just the difference between being a total Redshirt like 90% of Soul Society, and being an Elite Mook and up.
Rukia is powerful enough to be left to her own devices without having to worry too much about her safety, and she's strong enough to handle extensive patrol duty in the World of the Living, provided the RNG doesn't screw her over and throw a Menos or a serial Shinigami-killer like Grand Fisher her way. However, even with that, she's still not that amazing. She's probably amazing from the perspective of your average Shinigami grunt, who are basically more or less normal humans (or perhaps slightly better) + swords in terms of fighting power, but in the grand scheme of things, she's pretty low on the totem pole.
I'll give you that she has Shikai, and that she's extremely skillful and accomplished with it. She deserves that, along with recognition for her skill in kido. However, I still must point out that the only people who would look up to her in terms of strength are the absolute lowest rung on the Shinigami power scale; the expendables amongst the expendables.
Also, as a parting note, I'd like to point out that Rukia is strong enough to be a Seated Officer, not a Lieutenant. The Lieutenants are the 2nd Seat, and the Captain is the 1st. However, there are a total of twenty officer positions in each division. Rukia is strong enough to be a Seated Officer, but we're never told which one.
This is incredibly important, because by all accounts, she is not Lieutenant level. She's strong enough to be a Seated Officer. That doesn't means she's strong enough to be a Lieutenant, just that she's strong enough to be considered one of the top 20 Shinigami in 13th Division. You're implying with your words that Rukia is the equivalent of a Lieutenant. This is not the case. She's the equivalent of a Seated Officer, which is the limbo between total Mook and Actually Somewhat Valuable.
If she was capable of being a Lieutenant, that's what we would have been told. So at the very absolute best, she's the equivalent of a 3rd Seat. And even that's being insanely optimistic. I'd probably rank her in the general ballpark of Seats 7-10.
Either way, I'd agree and disagree. Just being able to release Shikai puts her a whole level above about 90% of Soul Society, as even that isn't something everyone can do (remember: it's not just Bankai that only few people ever achieve. Most never even manage Shikai. Bankai means you're exceptional amongst the exceptional, the upper percentile of the upper percentile. The top 1-2%). However, that's just the difference between being a total Redshirt like 90% of Soul Society, and being an Elite Mook and up.
Rukia is powerful enough to be left to her own devices without having to worry too much about her safety, and she's strong enough to handle extensive patrol duty in the World of the Living, provided the RNG doesn't screw her over and throw a Menos or a serial Shinigami-killer like Grand Fisher her way. However, even with that, she's still not that amazing. She's probably amazing from the perspective of your average Shinigami grunt, who are basically more or less normal humans (or perhaps slightly better) + swords in terms of fighting power, but in the grand scheme of things, she's pretty low on the totem pole.
I'll give you that she has Shikai, and that she's extremely skillful and accomplished with it. She deserves that, along with recognition for her skill in kido. However, I still must point out that the only people who would look up to her in terms of strength are the absolute lowest rung on the Shinigami power scale; the expendables amongst the expendables.
Also, as a parting note, I'd like to point out that Rukia is strong enough to be a Seated Officer, not a Lieutenant. The Lieutenants are the 2nd Seat, and the Captain is the 1st. However, there are a total of twenty officer positions in each division. Rukia is strong enough to be a Seated Officer, but we're never told which one.
This is incredibly important, because by all accounts, she is not Lieutenant level. She's strong enough to be a Seated Officer. That doesn't means she's strong enough to be a Lieutenant, just that she's strong enough to be considered one of the top 20 Shinigami in 13th Division. You're implying with your words that Rukia is the equivalent of a Lieutenant. This is not the case. She's the equivalent of a Seated Officer, which is the limbo between total Mook and Actually Somewhat Valuable.
If she was capable of being a Lieutenant, that's what we would have been told. So at the very absolute best, she's the equivalent of a 3rd Seat. And even that's being insanely optimistic. I'd probably rank her in the general ballpark of Seats 7-10.
I disagree with you on that Raine.
Don't ignore the fact that she oneshotted an arrancar. Granted that it was a weaker one and not necessarily amazing but it shows she is definately high officer capability.
But she also defeated one of the Espada. Which if you go by their ranking should be more powerful than the fraccion of other Espada, which several of the Litenaunts had difficulties with. Granted it was a lower level Esapada but this demonstrates that she has capabilities that are at least arguably Litenaunt level or within 5th seat or higher.
Which means nothing is definite because there just hasn't been enough action with Rukia to really compare her level and capabilities. In the least, by being able to kill an Espada that should put her in the running for Litenaunt Capabilities, the low range of them but still Litenaunt.
Don't ignore the fact that she oneshotted an arrancar. Granted that it was a weaker one and not necessarily amazing but it shows she is definately high officer capability.
But she also defeated one of the Espada. Which if you go by their ranking should be more powerful than the fraccion of other Espada, which several of the Litenaunts had difficulties with. Granted it was a lower level Esapada but this demonstrates that she has capabilities that are at least arguably Litenaunt level or within 5th seat or higher.
Which means nothing is definite because there just hasn't been enough action with Rukia to really compare her level and capabilities. In the least, by being able to kill an Espada that should put her in the running for Litenaunt Capabilities, the low range of them but still Litenaunt.
Being an Arrancar doesn't automatically make you a badass. Most of the Fraccon we've seen are either at or slightly above the level of your lowest-rung Shinigami mook. D-Roy was crap, we've always known that. Not only did he suck even as a Hollow, but Grimmjaw permanently cripplenerfshanked him by biting a honking huge chunk of his mask off when they first met. So he was an already weak Hollow made even weaker via events. And he wasn't even that hot of an Arrancar, seeing how the only reason he got to come along was because he begged (they flat-out told him he was too weak to be of any use). And he was stupid, which is something of a death-warrant in and of itself.
Plus, he never even got to release or fight with his real power, at least according to him (he never released, and stated that he was an 'aerial' type that only fights best in the sky). He was about to, but Rukia oneshotted him with a Shikai move before he could finish speaking. And that is a move, I'd like to remind you, that is flat-out stated to be lethal should it connect, though I won't press the subject, seeing how we had a monster argument about it a few months ago.
If anyone was going to get oneshotted by anything, it was D-Roy. Killing him is nothing to brag about. And he got killed by someone who not only isn't a moron who runs their mouth in life-or-death situations, but who also has a Fatality technique in their Shikai moveset.
D-Roy got completely and utterly boned from start to finish. He's not a very good example at all.
Except that Aa didn't go by ranking. He was the exception to the Espada rule, not only because he lacked the raw power, but also because he wasn't evolved enough (The Rule? is supposedly only Adjuchas can become Espada, and he was a Gillian).
They only made him an Espada because he had stupidly useful and insanely broken special powers out the ass. In terms of strength, he was by far the weakest of all of the Espada, bar none. Given his relative strength compared to Rukia's, and her strength compared to other known Shinigami, he was at best the level of one of the higher level Fraccon (the badass ones, not the dime a dozen ones). He got the position not because of his power, but because of his abilities. They were just that damn useful. Hell, the blanket telepathy alone was probably worth the promotion, to say nothing about the ability to eat Shinigami and Hollows and assimilate their powers.
Yes. That's why she's ranked as a 13th Division mook, and not a 13th Division Seated Officer.
I flat-out reject this. If they had meant Lieutenant, they would have said Lieutenant. They didn't. They said "Seated Officer."
The most optimistic you can possibly be is to call her 3rd Seat material, and I would fight that tooth and nail. She's mid-range Officer material, not upper Officer material.
Plus, he never even got to release or fight with his real power, at least according to him (he never released, and stated that he was an 'aerial' type that only fights best in the sky). He was about to, but Rukia oneshotted him with a Shikai move before he could finish speaking. And that is a move, I'd like to remind you, that is flat-out stated to be lethal should it connect, though I won't press the subject, seeing how we had a monster argument about it a few months ago.
If anyone was going to get oneshotted by anything, it was D-Roy. Killing him is nothing to brag about. And he got killed by someone who not only isn't a moron who runs their mouth in life-or-death situations, but who also has a Fatality technique in their Shikai moveset.
D-Roy got completely and utterly boned from start to finish. He's not a very good example at all.
Except that Aa didn't go by ranking. He was the exception to the Espada rule, not only because he lacked the raw power, but also because he wasn't evolved enough (The Rule? is supposedly only Adjuchas can become Espada, and he was a Gillian).
They only made him an Espada because he had stupidly useful and insanely broken special powers out the ass. In terms of strength, he was by far the weakest of all of the Espada, bar none. Given his relative strength compared to Rukia's, and her strength compared to other known Shinigami, he was at best the level of one of the higher level Fraccon (the badass ones, not the dime a dozen ones). He got the position not because of his power, but because of his abilities. They were just that damn useful. Hell, the blanket telepathy alone was probably worth the promotion, to say nothing about the ability to eat Shinigami and Hollows and assimilate their powers.
Yes. That's why she's ranked as a 13th Division mook, and not a 13th Division Seated Officer.
I flat-out reject this. If they had meant Lieutenant, they would have said Lieutenant. They didn't. They said "Seated Officer."
The most optimistic you can possibly be is to call her 3rd Seat material, and I would fight that tooth and nail. She's mid-range Officer material, not upper Officer material.
I'd place Rukia near Kiyone, and she's a third seat, Lord Raine. Give the midget at least that much. Granted we need to see a little more of Sode no Shirayuki to judge but she has potential. After all in the movies at least is looks like a slightly less powered cross between Senbonzakura and Hyorinmaru. (I know they're not canon to manga OR anime but they are at least canon unto themselves. Nobody start THAT argument again.)
From that perspective all Rukia would need is the right push and a moment of truth to save someone like Ichigo or Byakuya to reach the upper echelons. Get her an emergency "we're all screwed if she doesn't man up" scene and she might puch Lieutenant level. I'd argue that she seems slotted to take Kaien's place once she gets that push from the way the situation in the 13th has been shown. It's just a matter of waiting to get her there.
From that perspective all Rukia would need is the right push and a moment of truth to save someone like Ichigo or Byakuya to reach the upper echelons. Get her an emergency "we're all screwed if she doesn't man up" scene and she might puch Lieutenant level. I'd argue that she seems slotted to take Kaien's place once she gets that push from the way the situation in the 13th has been shown. It's just a matter of waiting to get her there.
I dunno, considering we saw Ichigo own several Lieutenants with his BARE HANDS and I he wouldn't be able to do the same to one of the Espada. I think you're getting confused because you keep seeing Lieutenants like Renji who is more Captain level anyways. I didn't say she was HIGH Lieutenant level, just capable of being comparible to a Lieutenant which you vehemently deny.
The whole officer thing took place awhile ago. So to your credit she most likely would not be Lieutenant level when they first met, though it's kind of hard to tell with all this flashback shit they've been doing.
The whole officer thing took place awhile ago. So to your credit she most likely would not be Lieutenant level when they first met, though it's kind of hard to tell with all this flashback shit they've been doing.
That's a bad example, seeing how he never fought Aa. Didn't I just tl;dr about how Aa was drastically weaker than all of the other Espada, and he was only made a member because of his Godhax special powers? How does Ichigo not instantly owning some other Espada with his bare hands have anything to do with Rukia's ability to defeat Aa?
While I don't have page number references for it, Byakuya states in the Soul Society arc that simply achieving bankai is an incredibly rare event - something in the neighborhood of one person every hundred years if my memory's not too far off. That makes those who have bankai freaks - whether they're called such or not. Those who can fight on captain class are likewise freaks because even among Shinigami such power is not normal.
Rukia's level of power, however, is at the edge of the normal ranges. She's strong - clearly Lieutenant class. Which makes her a powerful character - even if compared to the rest of the regular cast she's fairly weak (with the exception of Orihime who effectively has no offensive abilities).
Rukia's level of power, however, is at the edge of the normal ranges. She's strong - clearly Lieutenant class. Which makes her a powerful character - even if compared to the rest of the regular cast she's fairly weak (with the exception of Orihime who effectively has no offensive abilities).
Because it's a comparison.
Rukia was capable of taking down someone, that Ichigo would not have been able to defeat bare handed.
Ichigo took down three Lieutenants within seconds of each other with his bare hands, and this was even pre-vizard stage.
Using reasoning, Rukia should be at least capable of Lieutenant level ability.
And the fact remains that she took down a high level Arrancar, an Espada even, which the other Lieutenants had trouble doing the same. She of course had trouble to but considering the Lieutenants did as well that puts them about the same level.
Rukia was capable of taking down someone, that Ichigo would not have been able to defeat bare handed.
Ichigo took down three Lieutenants within seconds of each other with his bare hands, and this was even pre-vizard stage.
Using reasoning, Rukia should be at least capable of Lieutenant level ability.
And the fact remains that she took down a high level Arrancar, an Espada even, which the other Lieutenants had trouble doing the same. She of course had trouble to but considering the Lieutenants did as well that puts them about the same level.
Right now? In terms of combat ability I would put her high seated officer maybe, and this is a bit of a maybe, pushing Lieutenant IN SOME SELECT FIELD. As we saw in Ikkaku's fight during the Soul Society arc it was mentioned that 'All rounders are more liable to be promoted' and while I'm taking this wildly out of focus, I'm going to assume that as you move up you need to hit several benchmarks across the board. Rukia is GOOD at Kido, and passable with her zanpaktou but I wouldnt really believe her movement or hand to hand skills are very high.
I'd say that in pure power she is maybe close to getting into the lower level lieutenants, though she needs some work on her confidence in herself and round out her skills. However I would hesitate to say that she is flat out on that level if only because of her lobspided skills.
(in the 'all rounders are more liable to be promoted please note that this is just a guestimation, and Zaraki and Yachiru and a couple others should not be used as perfect examples)
I'd say that in pure power she is maybe close to getting into the lower level lieutenants, though she needs some work on her confidence in herself and round out her skills. However I would hesitate to say that she is flat out on that level if only because of her lobspided skills.
(in the 'all rounders are more liable to be promoted please note that this is just a guestimation, and Zaraki and Yachiru and a couple others should not be used as perfect examples)
Given hand to hand is never used save for specialists, I'm pretty sure that aspect really doesn't matter in the long run. Particularly since most if not all shinigami would be more dangerous with a freaking blade in the short run at the very least, probably extending well into the long run if their ability isn't complete garbage. Granted Movement techs and Swordplay are practically core skills though, with Kido showing up every once and a while, but I'd hardly think you'd have to be a standard for hand to hand when it shows up even less often than Kido does.
Hand-to-hand is listed as being one of the core arts. Also, I can think of a number of reasons it would be a really good idea to have. Think about it in terms of your average mook, as opposed to the monsters like the Captains. All you have is your sword. There's a 99% chance you don't even have Shikai. Wouldn't you like some martial arts to back it up?
Plus, the stronger a person is, the stronger their Zanpakuto is. That means that while he average mook's Zanpakuto would be pretty tough, it would still be prone to breaking, especially against an unusually powerful Hollow.
Hand-to-hand is the fallback. It's the thing you hope you'll never have to use, but you master it anyway, because you know that if you ever do have to use it, you want to be good at it, because you've obviously run out of options by that point.
Plus, as Ichigo handily demonstrated, hand-to-hand is not necessarily inferior to swordsmanship. In fact, by all appearances, hand-to-hand appears to be something that can be used while also using Zanjutsu, provided you're using your Zanpakuto one-handed.
Plus, the stronger a person is, the stronger their Zanpakuto is. That means that while he average mook's Zanpakuto would be pretty tough, it would still be prone to breaking, especially against an unusually powerful Hollow.
Hand-to-hand is the fallback. It's the thing you hope you'll never have to use, but you master it anyway, because you know that if you ever do have to use it, you want to be good at it, because you've obviously run out of options by that point.
Plus, as Ichigo handily demonstrated, hand-to-hand is not necessarily inferior to swordsmanship. In fact, by all appearances, hand-to-hand appears to be something that can be used while also using Zanjutsu, provided you're using your Zanpakuto one-handed.
In all fairness, Isane is a medic and has never been shown as anything else, Olmeada is quite literally a nose picking buffoon there half for comic relief that is implied to have the job simply because he's a noble, and Ichigo is at least mid-captain class at that point. I wouldn't expect most Lieutenants to be able to handle his hand to hand attacks when he can trade blows with Zaraki. The better ones like Nemu and Rangiku possibly could deal withe initial salvo. Renji and Ikkaku definitely could ( I know he's a 3rd, but that's only by his own choice). Still that just proves there is a LOT of room from top to bottom when it comes to being second in command of a squad.