Nasuverse Another Idea from the Sessha.

TheEcchiSessha

Well-Known Member
#1
I was thinking...(I know... that's a little dangerous for me) In Fate/Stay Night, Saber's wish is to redo the selection of the King right? What if she got her wish and Shirou was the one who replaced her. I want to hear someone elses thoughts on this before I say anything more.

Feel free to flame me for lameness.

~The Ecchi Sessha
 

EagleCeres

Well-Known Member
#2
TheEcchiSessha said:
I was thinking...(I know... that's a little dangerous for me) In Fate/Stay Night, Saber's wish is to redo the selection of the King right? What if she got her wish and Shirou was the one who replaced her.
interesting premise
with this wish Saber turns Shirou into King Arthur in her stead...
would Saber be there to support him (Guinevere?)?
would anyone of the F/SN cast be there in some shape/way/form?
i find it interesting, a possible alternative to Shirou future (becoming an alternate archer or other heroic spirit?)
 

TheEcchiSessha

Well-Known Member
#3
EagleCeres said:
TheEcchiSessha said:
I was thinking...(I know... that's a little dangerous for me) In Fate/Stay Night, Saber's wish is to redo the selection of the King right? What if she got her wish and Shirou was the one who replaced her.
interesting premise
with this wish Saber turns Shirou into King Arthur in her stead...
would Saber be there to support him (Guinevere?)?
would anyone of the F/SN cast be there in some shape/way/form?
i find it interesting, a possible alternative to Shirou future (becoming an alternate archer or other heroic spirit?)
My take would be Shirou takes up the burden willing, at first, as he is the type to take upon himself others burdens. I was thinking more along the lines of him being forced to marry Guinevere to assage the people of his country, rather than him marry some girl (Saber) of unknown origin. Saber still only thinking of England as her country convinces Shirou to do so. Shirou and Saber have an affair and Saber becomes pregant and runs away in fear for the childs life(without telling Shirou, or anyone, of course ) As an illegitimate child could cause problems with succession, she fears someone (supporting Guinevere) may try to kill the child. She dies during child birth and their son grows up not knowing the truth. Shirou's enemies decide to use this to their advantage. The illegitimate child is brought forth as the "true" successor by Shirou's enemies. The child believing his Father impregnated Saber and then exiled her. Civil war erupts, etc etc. (Same thing happens in the legend just replaceing people) Shirou being heart-broken is unable to hold his country together and things end up the same as with Saber when she was King Arthur. Knowing of the Grail (it did grant Saber's wish after all, which started the entire mess) Shirou decides to fight for his wish. His wish to change his choice of who he married, to take back that horrible mistake. Thus he becomes an Eirei (sp?) and takes up the fight in the war.

Thats the backstory anyway. I was thinking about him replacing Gilgamesh. Oddly, Shirou becomes just like Saber, except far more cynical and bitter (think Dark!Archer). :sweat: He's wishing for another chance at life and he ends up repeating the same mistakes as Saber.

My idea was Saber's wish meerly placed Shirou in her shoes....in an alternate dimension. So the wish didn't acutally take away Saber's burden but instead placed the same burden on Shirou. Shirou begins to understand this after he is summoned the first time....

Shirou is then confronted with Saber in the Holy War. As she has not met him yet, (it will be set in the 4th holy war), She fights all out against the strange Eirei(Shirou) that is trying to convince her that Grail isn't what it seems to be. In the end, Saber and Shirou fight(reluctantly in Shirou case), the tragedy (the big ass explosion that took out Shirou's neighborhood) happens anyway when Kotomine uses the Grail. Shirou decides to wait the ten years until the next holy war. Now knowing his wish is truly impossible to be granted(since Fate is a bitch/whore like that) Shirou steels himself to save everyone he can in the next war, he does what ever it takes to last to the next war. He would become a sort of Dark hero, one willing to commit evil or become smeared with mud to save those precious to him(an almost complete 180 from his previous attitude). This all would be sort of a prologue to the "Main" story.

annnnndd....that where my muse kinda left me.... and since I can't write. I'm placing this out here if someone wants to pick up the ball and run with it.

Feel free to Flame for plot holes or lack of knowledge/explaination.
(and praying you guys don't start thinking of me in the same catagory as 007 :unsure: )

I would like to thank EagleCeres for his comments and hope I answered all his questions.

~The Ecchi Sessha
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#4
The idea doesn't sound bad, basicly a Shirou with Emiya Kirei attitude in the fourth war?

Although it would be interesting if Gilgamesh would still be around. :p

Heh opens the gate for every gal to get her Shirou after all there are three of them. :p

*I'm still sleeping at this moment so my posts aren't quite right*
 

TheEcchiSessha

Well-Known Member
#5
Moshulel said:
The idea doesn't sound bad, basicly a Shirou with Emiya Kirei attitude in the fourth war?

Although it would be interesting if Gilgamesh would still be around. :p

Heh opens the gate for every gal to get her Shirou after all there are three of them. :p
The premise I was trying for was an odd Magi(the computer from NGE) type of relationship between the 3 Shirou's. We have a Shirou from the Past(king), Present(man) and Future(hero). Then each one is trying for a different goal. One is trying to create a new future(Past!Shirou), one is protecting the present(normal shirou) and one is trying to destroy the past(Archer). Of course, all 3 are trying to achieve their goals in 3 different ways with 3 different attitudes.

Don't forget both Past!Shirou and Saber are basically different Eirei with a legend that is almost exactly the same. So we have to whole "Who is the 'true' King" dynamic like with Gilgamesh.

A Shirou with a Emiya/Kirei attitude. Basically, he's still Shirou but yeah he's gonna much darker like Kotomine. Both had a similar tragedy (both lost a woman they loved/tried to love) so we cover how Kirei summons him.

As for the pairing a Shirou for each girl? I hadn't thought about that strangely enough(since I often think about pairings first :sweat: ). A very good suggestion Mosh.

As for Gilgamesh, I like him too but he might be troublesome to the story. I really don't see him playing anything but a bad guy if he was included(and he's suppose to be Choatic Good too :sweat: ). If anyone could think of way to include him, I would love to hear it. Only way I feel I can improve my ideas are with feedback.

I would like to thank Mosh for his comments/feedback. I'll give you some feedback on your ideas (assuming I know anything about the series <_< ).
As always if anyone likes the idea, background or anything about this story. Please feel free to pick up the ball and run with it.

Also if my explaintion was lacking or confusing, please point it out and i'll try to explain more clearly/fill in plot holes.
~The Ecchi Sessha
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#6
The main issue here is that the Past Shirou is most likely going to be a Saber class eirei since he is going to have pretty much the same legend as Saber. Offcourse seeing as there are more then one Holy Grail wars replicating Gilgamesh case wouldn't be so far fetched although a few alterations here and here would have to be made.

This way we have him as a saber class keeping in touch with the legend and Gilgamesh will be around as well. (You have the cake and eat it too :p)
 

TheEcchiSessha

Well-Known Member
#7
Moshulel said:
The main issue here is that the Past Shirou is most likely going to be a Saber class eirei since he is going to have pretty much the same legend as Saber. Offcourse seeing as there are more then one Holy Grail wars replicating Gilgamesh case wouldn't be so far fetched although a few alterations here and here would have to be made.

This way we have him as a saber class keeping in touch with the legend and Gilgamesh will be around as well. (You have the cake and eat it too :p)
So we could do something like... Past!Shirou is summoned during the 4th Holy War as a saber and fights Gilgamesh. This would mean that Shirou is summoned by his adopted father Kiritsugu. They would have similiar attitudes. Both would supress their emotions to save people. Also Kiritsugu has Avalon to make up for any thing else. Past!Shirou wouldn't have any knowledge of the 4th War so he really wouldn't have any advantage through fore-knowledge. We have Past!Shirou survive the 4th war by some means(drinking from the grail, stealing peoples energy with or without killing them, etc, etc). Now we still Shirou and Gilgamesh around. They would maybe call a truce until the next war (wouldn't really much point to fight without some sorta prize right?) All this would shift things away the life Shirou lived. So now alot of his foreknowledge is useless. Would need Present!Shirou to survive the disaster. Then 10 years later we have the next holy war. Where this time around it's Saber's first summon. So Shirou would need to teach her about things(not that you pervs, like using chopsticks and manners like taking your shoes off at the door) This could strengthen the bond/friendship between Shirou and Saber. Also on a side note, could have Past!Shirou decide to train Present!Shirou in swordsmenship. As the Past!Shirou would want to increase his chances of changing the future right? anyway.... thats all I got time to put down...

Tell me what ya think. Point out any plot holes I missed or anything OOC.

~The Ecchi Sessha
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#8
The main points againt this theory:

Saber's attitude would be a lot different. A lot different if you get what i mean.

Shirou Saber needs to have the Avalon or a different S class noble phantasm or Gilgamesh would just pound him into the ground.

Wouldn't it be easier for Saber Shirou to just kill Kirei?

Anyway it's workable...
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#9
Moshulel said:
The main points againt this theory:

Saber's attitude would be a lot different. A lot different if you get what i mean.

Shirou Saber needs to have the Avalon or a different S class noble phantasm or Gilgamesh would just pound him into the ground.

Wouldn't it be easier for Saber Shirou to just kill Kirei?

Anyway it's workable...
Meh, you can always create a custom Noble Phantasm. Like, say, the legendary magical sword Invictus, which is said to literally make it so that its wielder cannot lose. :snigger:
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#10
GenocideHeart said:
Meh, you can always create a custom Noble Phantasm. Like, say, the legendary magical sword Invictus, which is said to literally make it so that its wielder cannot lose. :snigger:
Yes but Saber Shirou here has to keep to the legend...
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#11
Moshulel said:
GenocideHeart said:
Meh, you can always create a custom Noble Phantasm. Like, say, the legendary magical sword Invictus, which is said to literally make it so that its wielder cannot lose.? :snigger:
Yes but Saber Shirou here has to keep to the legend...
Not necessarily. Saber's wish would be to be replaced, not to have Shirou BE her. Since Shirou doesn't have a legend of his own, he might well need something entirely made up.

And just for the record, King Arthur's sword, Excalibur, was said to have the same effect of Invictus - that is, whoever wielded it could not be defeated in battle. I believe Avalon tried to mimic this effect...

Just a thought or two.
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#12
GenocideHeart said:
Moshulel said:
GenocideHeart said:
Meh, you can always create a custom Noble Phantasm. Like, say, the legendary magical sword Invictus, which is said to literally make it so that its wielder cannot lose.? :snigger:
Yes but Saber Shirou here has to keep to the legend...
Not necessarily. Saber's wish would be to be replaced, not to have Shirou BE her. Since Shirou doesn't have a legend of his own, he might well need something entirely made up.

And just for the record, King Arthur's sword, Excalibur, was said to have the same effect of Invictus - that is, whoever wielded it could not be defeated in battle. I believe Avalon tried to mimic this effect...

Just a thought or two.
Actually by replacing her he becomes king Arthur. Otherwise continuity issues, time paradox and the likes.
 
#13
Moshulel said:
GenocideHeart said:
Moshulel said:
GenocideHeart said:
Meh, you can always create a custom Noble Phantasm. Like, say, the legendary magical sword Invictus, which is said to literally make it so that its wielder cannot lose.á :snigger:
Yes but Saber Shirou here has to keep to the legend...
Not necessarily. Saber's wish would be to be replaced, not to have Shirou BE her. Since Shirou doesn't have a legend of his own, he might well need something entirely made up.

And just for the record, King Arthur's sword, Excalibur, was said to have the same effect of Invictus - that is, whoever wielded it could not be defeated in battle. I believe Avalon tried to mimic this effect...

Just a thought or two.
Actually by replacing her he becomes king Arthur. Otherwise continuity issues, time paradox and the likes.
As for Saber Shirou's Noble Phantasm. If you notice there are 2 swords of legend. Excalibur and Caliburn. Caliburn was the first sword wielded by Arthur and Excalibur was the reforged version(i think anyway) Watch the series again if you think I'm smoking something. Caliburn is created by Shirou in Episode 15 and Excalibur is revealed in Episode 12 when Saber is fighting Rider. You could go that route for Saber Shirou's Noble Phantasm or not. Also don't forget, Saber Shirou would still have his tracing/imageing ability. So he could have come up with something similar to UBW. It wouldn't be UBW because he's a king, not a hero. Also, I wasn't planning on Saber Shirou being the same as Saber. I planned on him being more like a tank. A bit slow but uber-hard to damage, kinda like an immovable object to Gilgamesh's unstoppable force.

Also the thing about Invictus... It makes it where you can't be defeated in battle, never said anything about being invincible. However, Avalon does make it's user invinicible or to say make them unable to bleed to death/not bleed at all. Excalibur's power was being able to cut through anything(maybe making them unbeatable in battle depends on which legend you go by) . (yeah i'm a wikipedia-manic) However, going by F/SN, Avalon makes the user unaffected by outside forces(meaning nothing could hurt you while using it, magic or otherwise). Hope i'm not stepping on anyone's toes here. :unsure:

As I said, Saber Shirou and Saber have legends that are near identical. So maybe with Shirou, he wouldn't have Caliburn broken or something. Then the sword wouldn't have been reforged into Excalibur. Remember Shirou made a copy of Caliburn, a copy that wasn't nearly as strong as the real thing, and it killed Beserker 7(not sure?) times in one blow. We could kinda mess around with Shirou's legend a bit. :rolleyes:

Why kill off Kirei? Still need a villian, unless you wanna go the Dark Sakura route. :p~ Gilgamesh is great and all, but he really doesn't strike me as the "ultimate" villian if you know what i mean. He's mainly evil later from the "taint" of the grail. He's mostly just a selfish bastard. He also really wouldn't be after Saber this time around because he would meet her in the 5th war not the 4th. He probably would hold a grudge against Saber Shirou though. But then again... I dispise Kirei and would probably kill him off just for the hell of it. Going that route it's plausible to have Saber Shirou as normal Shirou's gaurdian... along with Taiga of course. :p As I said, it's plausible. Didn't say it could be worked out story-wise.

BTW, if i come as a smartass or something, sorry. Just trying to point out what I thought. Also would like to apologize for the sub-par nature of my previous post. Thought up the idea in 4-5 mins then wrote it down in like 8-9 mins. Work owns my soul..... :help:

I would like to thank both GenocideHeart and Moshulel for your ideas and comments. It really helps alot when I get other people's views on my ideas.

As always, feel free to bash me for lack of explanation or holes in knowledge.

~The Ecchi Sessha
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#15
Fatuous One said:
Interesting idea but, and correct me if I'm wrong, I do believe that the current Holy Grail can't grant wishes. Or to be more specific, it only grants tainted wishes. I'm not sure on the specfics of that part of F/SN, but having Saber wish on the tainted grail doesn't seem to me like it would grant her wish correctly.


Question, would Saber!Shirou be similar to Saber, that is, not quite an Eirei, or did he actually die and become a Heroic Spirit?
I guess we can go with the alternate universe option, as in a universe where the Holy Grail did granted wishes...

Anyway about Saber!Shirou, yes i think he will become a heroic spirit and die like any other Eirei. He replaces Saber no?

Yes... <_< I am very tempted to adopt this idea too... -_-
 
#16
TheEcchiSessha said:
My idea was Saber's wish meerly placed Shirou in her shoes....in an alternate dimension. So the wish didn't acutally take away Saber's burden but instead placed the same burden on Shirou.
If that wasn't a "tainted" wish, I don't know what is. Basically, Shirou gets boned and Saber still has to fight in the Wars. My understanding about the "Throne of Heros" is it's kinda like "The End of Time" in Chrono Trigger. So it exists in every dimension and yet outside their influence. Saber's wish was suppose to be "Change it so someone else would take my place and save everyone." She was wanting the past itself changed. She instead got "Make someone else go through the same thing I did." So Shirou instead is forced into the role and gets boned by fate as well. The "tainted" Grail kinda is like an evil genie.

Question, would Saber!Shirou be similar to Saber, that is, not quite an Eirei, or did he actually die and become a Heroic Spirit?
Hmm.. not quite certain.. I was planning for Saber!Shirou to be a tragic character, so I was leaning more towards "he dies and becomes a Heroic Spirit". But I have been know to change my mind.

Nope, Saber would already know that stuff. When summoned, Eirei sort of get an 'information download' that gives them the rundown of the situation. Normally, this is their instructions on what do to in the situation (who to kill, what to destory... etc.) but I believe this is how Saber first learned such stuff. What, what do you think Rider/Caster/Lancer did before hand? You need to remember that none of them are Japanese, and they're all summoned pretty close to the War's start. That's no way near enough time to learn Japanese and any other needed skills.
Good point. This is why I like feedback. Smacks me in the face and sets me straight. :snigger:

In F/SN, Caliburn is a separate sword. It was the "King Selection" sword, and while powerful, it later got lost/destroyed (not sure which) and Arthur got Excalibur from the Lady of the Lady.
In some legends, Caliburn is the "Sword in the Stone" and its destroyed during one of Arthur's fights. It is then reforged by the Lady of the Lake into Excalibur. Other legends say its a different sword all together but its destroyed and Arthur recieves his new Sword, Excalibur, from the Lady of the Lake.

I was gonna go with the second set of legends. My version is Saber!Shirou never breaks Caliburn and therefore never needs to receive Excalibur. Of course, this could all change at the drop of a hat. :sweat:

BTW, I get most of my info from Wikipedia.org. :sisi:


Kirei's actually a pretty interesting villain. The anime really didn't do him justice.
The entire series is smoothed over in the anime. Lots of important facts and events are left out to make it fit into the length they needed. Not to mention they combined all three scenarios together. :huh!: But yeah Kirei is a good villain. But he's a villain that feels human. :( You can almost feel sorry for him at times. Then he shows he's a true bastard and makes you hate him all over again. :headbanger:

Shirou Saber needs to have the Avalon or a different S class noble phantasm or Gilgamesh would just pound him into the ground.
In regard to this, (should have addressed it earlier :sweat: ) I was think about using Shirou's tracing abilities to counter Gilgamesh. He could trace Avalon like he does in both the game and anime. Only thing is he wouldn't get it's auto-regen ability and he could only use it for a short while. So it wouldn't save him from a fatal blow he has already recieved. However, it would be able to reflect Gilgamesh's attacks. If this seems kinda over-powered, i'm up for suggestions.

Feel free to refute anything I've said. I could be completely wrong. -_- Been wrong before, likey wrong this time too. Again, if I come off as rude or something, Sorry not really good at speaking with others. :unsure:

Looking for more suggestions and looking for a writer. Of course most everyone on the boards are busy with their own ideas so :huh.: .

Work owns my soul... :help:

~The Ecchi Sessha
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#17
TheEcchiSessha said:
Looking for more suggestions and looking for a writer. Of course most everyone on the boards are busy with their own ideas so :huh.: .
^
^
^
^
*Points to his post above*
 
#18
Oh sorry bout that Mosh... you snuck in a post while I was typing up my last one there. :sweat: If you want to adopt the story, go ahead. It's the main reason I placed it out here. I was hoping it was a good enough idea for some one to adopt.
Besides, quite a bit of the story itself has come into being thanks to your comments. :D

~The Ecchi Sessha
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#19
Oh why not?! I already like the series a lot, writing fanfiction is the next logical step no?

Offcourse it will have to wait a bit... :unsure!:
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#21
Well we could go with a Saber!Shirou that hasn't lost the Avalon... arghhh paradoxes with the douzen. I'll be thinking of a workable theory....
 
#22
Fatuous One said:
Hmm... Did this Shirou have Avalon placed in him as a child? 'cause, you should know, normally tracing a NP of Avalon's power would usually kill anyone who did it. The reason why Shirou's an exception is that he's had it IN him for most of his life, there isn't any NP that he knows better.

Even so, tracing Avalon takes a CRAP load of mana. If Shirou has some sort of handicap with his magi powers, I can see him not wanting to use his tracing ability too much.
Basically, yeah he had it in while he was human. It is how Kiritsugu saves him at the end of 4th holy war. And don't forget the time he was "King Arthur". Only problem with him still having Avalon with him as Saber!Shirou is.... how did he die then? Could have something to do with Throne of Hero's being outside time and space. Some odd paradox maybe? :blink:

True, tracing something like Avalon would use a crap load of mana... but then again he has a strong link to it and he does have a reality marble..... with no penelities....whatever that means... :sweat:. But he really wouldn't need to whip out Avalon every single fight either. Just maybe like once to block an uber-attack then he can get up close and stop them from using it again.

Yes, the legends differ, but remember that the Type-Moon universe actually has a set legend. That Shirou has Caliburn is fine, but remember that it IS an inferior NP to Excalibur.
Yes, Caliburn would be inferior to Excalibur which is ranked as A++, but I believe Caliburn would at least be ranked as A if not A+. So still a good sword... just not as good as Excalibur and Ea. It was able to damage Beserker after all which can only be damaged by B and above(thanks to his NP,God's Hand). Of course, that was a COPY which means it was a rank lower than the real thing.

So thanks again Fatuous One for help with the details, Mosh for the feedback and EagleCeres and GenocideHeart for their input.

~The Ecchi Sessha
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#24
Hmm... a question. Would a legendary weapon with no specific master be usable by Saber!Shirou?

I'm specifically thinking of Argetlahm, the god-sword that was said to have been used by the champions of the Silver Wheel, Arianrhod, goddess of the Moon. It didn't have a single wielder... the sword chose its own master.

A sentient Noble Phantasm would be interesting, to say the least - unless I'm forgetting something, Noble Phantasms don't have a will of their own. One with a will of its own would probably be a EX level NP.

Or, if you want to somehow make things more interesting, make this a crossover, and have it so that by making that 'wish', Saber created a paradox which caused the normal rules the Grail operates under to not be valid anymore... perhaps by mixing legends.

Just a few thoughts.

To share a few more ideas:

-Riviera has a similar 'power scale' for its Divine Instruments. Ein's Einherjar and Ledah's weapon (can't recall its name) were both EXL Instruments, EXL being in this case, Execution Level - weapons so powerful they could conceivably kill a God, and who shattered the Overdrive bar when used to their fullest.

-Another possibility is to have the Grail warp Saber's wish - not sure how, but I'm sure it's doable.

-Third possibility, that Saber finds something even MORE powerful than the Grail (as unlikely as it sounds, you must remember that the Grail is not even close to being the most powerful artifact out there in legends, and there might well be artifacts even more powerful), and THAT grants her wish. Say, the Philosopher's Stone, or if you want to be very sadistic, the Necronomicon.

I'm just throwing out ideas to make this more interesting, of course.
 

Moshulel

Well-Known Member
#25
Noble Phantasms without a Master? That seems plausible... however they would have to be close to the Arthurian legend since Shirou IS Arthur here... Oh well keeping Avalon could be the easiest solution.

BTW Gilgamesh owns almost ALL Noble Phantasms in his Vault.
 
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