Nasuverse Another random idea...

[GenocideHeart]

It's one that has actually been needling me for a very long time.

We all know that Kiritsugu saved Shirou and all, and he acquired Avalon that way, right?

Well, my idea - what if Shirou actually was saved by someone else - a certain silent blonde kid accompanied by an old woman dressed in black with a veil over her head?

Yeah, it's a Shin Megami Tensei cross. The basic idea is that SMT's Lucifer has grown bored (maybe Hitoshura has killed God and blown up the universe in his home dimension? Or nothing new is happening? Hell, I doubt the old man needs an excuse to go mess around elsewhere), and decided to go and screw around with other realities. He ends up crossing over to the Nasuverse happens upon the Fuyuki city disaster and his interest is piqued, so he leaves Shirou with a Magatama as a 'present', since he senses that he'll make a difference in the future.

The catch? Magatsuhi is akin to prana, so in order to use his magatama he needs a lot of prana. So he finds himself in the unusual position of having to act as a 'Living Servant' to do anything at all - and incidentally, his Master ends up being Rin.

Even though neither he nor Rin are really involved in the current Grail War in this scenario, Shirou still desires to do something about it, so he sets out to do what he can using his own, alien power, acting as a disruption in the entire conflict.

Whether Rin still summons EMIYA is up to you, but he'd definitely be different, since Shirou, if anything, would gain a place in the Throne of Heroes due to his magatama, and thus Archer would have something mimicking them.

As for why the Nasuverse's own God doesn't interfere with Lucifer? What he's doing is akin to a harmless prank in his eyes, and he doesn't give enough of a damn to stop him. After all, it's just Lucy playing with some humans...

It's a skeleton of an idea, but I admit to being severely tempted by it. Howeer, I no longer have Fate/Stay Night on my PC; so I'll have to refresh my memory on the overall plot to see how and why it'd change.

So... discuss. :snigger:

 

[JiigarGhen]

No Saber then, in that case? :blue:

 

[GenocideHeart]

No Saber then, in that case? :blue:

Not for Shirou, obviously. Never said anything about her not showing up at all.

 

[JiigarGhen]

No Saber then, in that case?? :blue:

Not for Shirou, obviously. Never said anything about her not showing up at all.

That's good. Saber and Rin are my favorites, so I'd have to protest any FSN idea without them. ^_^

 

[shout27]

No Saber then, in that case?á :blue:

Not for Shirou, obviously. Never said anything about her not showing up at all.

That's good. Saber and Rin are my favorites, so I'd have to protest any FSN idea without them. ^_^

Humph, nonsense, everyone knows that the series isn't the same without Medea+Medusa goodness. . . as for SMT, I unfortunately have never played it, or if I have, I don't remember playing it. I can't make any comments on it either way.

 

[JiigarGhen]

No Saber then, in that case?? :blue:

Not for Shirou, obviously. Never said anything about her not showing up at all.

That's good. Saber and Rin are my favorites, so I'd have to protest any FSN idea without them. ^_^

Humph, nonsense, everyone knows that the series isn't the same without Medea+Medusa goodness. . . as for SMT, I unfortunately have never played it, or if I have, I don't remember playing it. I can't make any comments on it either way.

Well, I haven't played through Heaven's Feel yet, so I haven't gotten to know Rider yet. Except a rather creepy Bad End where she apparently gets off on tearing Shirou into small bits....

 

[Muramasa]

Shiro with a magatama? Isn't that just asking for interference by the church or the mages association?

 

[GenocideHeart]

Shiro with a magatama? Isn't that just asking for interference by the church or the mages association?

That assumes they find out. Which isn't guaranteed at all. :snigger:

 

[GenocideHeart]

Okay, I think I have a rough outline in mind.

First, Lucifer is indeed an extraplanar being in this one. There may be a resident version of Lucifer, but if there is, it's nowhere to be found.

SMT Lucy accessed the Nasuverse through the Amalla network, which is, after all, called 'the space between dimensions'. That means that yes, if you know where to look, you can technically travel to any other dimension. However, travel to and from the Nasuverse is extra difficult because it seems to be a fairly closed-up dimension, ie, it doesn'tb like being invaded or having things leave from it.

Secondly, Magatsuhi and prana are pretty much the same thing. This is why Shirou can get away with using his Magatama even though he's not in a Magatama-rich Vortex World - since he's still partially human, he produces Magatsuhi on his own, and while it runs out very fast, it does regenerate over time.

Thirdly, Shirou CAN use his Magatama for extended periods if he has someone with lots of prana as backup. He essentially acts as if he was a living Servant for that purpose - except of course that things affecting Servants specifically, like command seals, don't work on him.

Fourth, Shirou is actually not a demifiend. While he survived the ingestion of his forst Magatama and can use them like Hitoshura does, changing Magatama causes him significant pain, and they are overall less effective than Hitoshura's. This is because his potential is much lower. He can still become very strong, just not Hitoshura-strong.

More miscellaneous 'facts':

-Shirou was saved from the fire by his Magatama - Lucifer gave him Shiranui, not Marogareh. Due to the Null fire effect, he was thus mostly unharmed by the fire, even if still badly beaten up from the wounds.

-I'm undecided on whether Kiritsugu will still adopt him or not, but this Shirou will definitely have connections with Zelretch - he occasionally works as a monster hunter for the wizard after he figures out the deal with his Magatama.

-He still gets involved in the Grail War, because he is the one who finds Caster. Caster acts as a foil to Shirou, since he tends to be careless and she keeps those tendencies in check by acting as the brains.

-I'm also still undecided on who will get to summon Archer and Saber. Since Shirou doesn't have Avalon, not to mention he can't afford a Servant given how he needs his prana for himself, he obviously can't summon Arturia. And Rin, as mentioned, has her hands full with providing Shirou with prana for his Magatama, not to mention chipping in with Caster's own upkeep.

That's all I have for now. Anyone chipping in with help would be appreciated.

 

[Christopher Robin]

Hold on, since Shriou isn't really a Servant, doesn't he have to gain prana by transferring it from Rin by having sex?

 

[GenocideHeart]

Hold on, since Shriou isn't really a Servant, doesn't he have to gain prana by transferring it from Rin by having sex?

He's the one RECEIVING prana in this case. He had to have sex with Saber because he wasn't good enough to give it to her through more conventional means. Rin has no such problem.

Although, you can always make up an excuse for that, if you like. And caster might need that regardless, since Shirou is still rather inept at the whole thing. :snigger:

 

[Christopher Robin]

Yeah I know why Shirou had to have sex with Saber. I meant I thought nonsexual transfer had to do with being a Servant, like through the command seals or something.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Yeah I know why Shirou had to have sex with Saber. I meant I thought nonsexual transfer had to do with being a Servant, like through the command seals or something.

That's a good point. Although with Shirou having a Magatama inside him (which is essentially a minidemon), he might be more receptive to prana, since demons get stronger by eating Magatsuhi, and prana is essentially the same thing.

 

[Fatuous One]

... :/

GH, a lot of your thoughts are really disconnected.

The catch? Magatsuhi is akin to prana, so in order to use his magatama he needs a lot of prana. So he finds himself in the unusual position of having to act as a 'Living Servant' to do anything at all - and incidentally, his Master ends up being Rin.

Waitùwhat? What's this jump from 'he gets his magatama, so he's like a living Servant' to 'Rin becomes his Master'? Talk about skipping ahead.

Why is Rin suddenly his Master? For that matter, it should be noted that (like Robin says) it isn't exactly possible just for them to 'connect' like that. A connection between the two needs to exist first, and that can happen in one of two ways depending. One being via transfer of bodily fluids (i.e., sex), and the other being the Realta Nua way of having him consume one of her circuits (which isn't so good as it only lasts a few months and she's permanantly lost one of her circuits). Even if you make the analogy, him being like a living Servant doesn't exactly make it for a Servant/Master relationship. If you want to give it a technical term, it's more like he's her familiar. You can't be a Servant unless you're an Eirei.

How do Rin and Shirou meet? Rather, how do the two become aware of each other's more extraordinary pasts?

Even though neither he nor Rin are really involved in the current Grail War in this scenario, Shirou still desires to do something about it, so he sets out to do what he can using his own, alien power, acting as a disruption in the entire conflict.

Hah? Why wouldn't Rin be involved with the grail war? She's a Tohsaka, that automatically makes her a participant, practically (more specifically, there's always going to be a seat open for one of the three families in the grail war). Hell, as a Tohsaka, she'd want to get involved to win it. Family pride and all that.

Whether Rin still summons EMIYA is up to you, but he'd definitely be different, since Shirou, if anything, would gain a place in the Throne of Heroes due to his magatama, and thus Archer would have something mimicking them.

Not really. EMIYA is EMIYA. It's just a matter of how close Shirou might be to becoming EMIYA, than to EMIYA becoming him.

In other words, no matter what any Shirou is like, EMIYA will be the same.

As for why the Nasuverse's own God doesn't interfere with Lucifer? What he's doing is akin to a harmless prank in his eyes, and he doesn't give enough of a damn to stop him. After all, it's just Lucy playing with some humans...

The Nasuverse God wouldn't give a shit no matter what Lucifer did with the universe, even destroying the universe.

-He still gets involved in the Grail War, because he is the one who finds Caster. Caster acts as a foil to Shirou, since he tends to be careless and she keeps those tendencies in check by acting as the brains.

Unless he happens to live at the Ryuudouji temple, that's kind of impossible.

When Kuzuki found Caster, him bringing her to the temple was the only thing that allowed her to live, being that it's on top of a huge leyline, allowing her not to disappear from lack of prana. Unless Shirou happens to have the habit of having sex unconscious girls to feed them prana...


A lot of these are merely questions, but honestly, I have a hard time following some of your thoughts.

 

[JiigarGhen]

Um, yeah, I kinda agree with F1. Right now, the idea's interesting, but it's kinda...scattered.


Let's see...basically, Shiro is rescued by Lucifer instead of Kiritsugu. And he gets a Magatama instead of Avalon. All right, that makes sense. But where does he go from there? Who takes him in? From what I could tell from the Fate scenario, if Kiritsugu hadn't taken him in, he would have ended up in Kotomine's hands and been fodder for Gilgamesh.

Here's a way to fix that, though, and have him possibly be the one to rescue Caster.

We know next to nothing about Issei's family apart from that they're monks at the Temple, right? Well, let's just say his father decides to adopt Shirou. Perhaps Issei's father came across Shirou right after Lucifer gave him the Magatama. In fact, Lucifer may have led him there. I don't know much about Shin Megami Tensei, because I haven't played many of the games yet, but I really doubt it would be out of Lucifer's way to secure a safe place for Shirou. And the Temple would be a pretty safe place, I think.


On EMIYA, I say it's not absolutely necessary to change him. I just finished Unlimited Blade Works today, and reading in between what he says, I think he mentions possibly having met a Shirou in some of his previous summonings. Not sure if that's really what he meant, but I think it could be seen that way. Since the Throne of Heroes is separate from normal reality and time, this EMIYA doesn't have to match up with Shirou.

Hmm. As for how Rin and Shirou might meet...I'll have to think about that one more. Obviously school, but as for how they figure out each other's...unique abilities...I'm drawing a blank right now. I'll try and come up with something.

 

[GenocideHeart]

Okay, I'm a little less scatterbrained now (too much Pepsi yesterday), so let me try to make this more clear.

Waitùwhat? What's this jump from 'he gets his magatama, so he's like a living Servant' to 'Rin becomes his Master'? Talk about skipping ahead.

Why is Rin suddenly his Master? For that matter, it should be noted that (like Robin says) it isn't exactly possible just for them to 'connect' like that. A connection between the two needs to exist first, and that can happen in one of two ways depending. One being via transfer of bodily fluids (i.e., sex), and the other being the Realta Nua way of having him consume one of her circuits (which isn't so good as it only lasts a few months and she's permanantly lost one of her circuits). Even if you make the analogy, him being like a living Servant doesn't exactly make it for a Servant/Master relationship. If you want to give it a technical term, it's more like he's her familiar. You can't be a Servant unless you're an Eirei.

How do Rin and Shirou meet? Rather, how do the two become aware of each other's more extraordinary pasts?

Okay, her being a Master was more an analogy, and you are right, it's more like an on-and-off familiar. Let me clarify.

First off, Shirou has some key differences from the Hitoshura. For one, his body isn't fully compatible with magatama - it's compatible enough to not die when one is ingested, and it's compatible enough to let him USE the magatama, but it also causes him significant pain to activate or change the active magatama, and his overall power and skills are significantly weaker than the Hitoshura's.

Due to this incompatibility, activating a magatama also causes a drain of prana in Shirou's system for as long as it's active (something which, again, the original demifiend had no trouble with). Since he's more human than demon, he has more magatsuhi/prana available within his body than he should as a demon (remember, humans naturally produce magatsuhi in large quantities compared to any other living being and most supernatural ones), and it still regenerates like in any other human (unlike what happens with the Hitoshura), but in battle, his magatama will eat that prana up like nothing.

Because of this, he needs to find a way to get prana in the middle of a fight. That is where Rin comes into play - as a Tohsaka, she has a very large amount of prana (enough to summon and sustain Archer, which translates into enough to sustain Shirou's magatama - they are that draining in prana terms), and thus it makes the most sense to have her help him out.

As for how they meet, depending on whether Kiritsugu still adopts him, he may also develop a number of the connections he has in canon. He would, however, lack Avalon. Also, it's doubtful whether he'd have enough prana to summon a Servant at all, let alone Saber. And with his magatama eating his own prana up, there's no way he can ALSO sustain Saber, so he'd be better off without a Servant.

Regarding how Rin could transfer prana to him, you have to keep in mind one key factor - the magatama are not from the Nasuverse, and obey different rules. There may be other ways to transfer prana to Shirou, in other words, since the entities inside him have some really screwed up 'rules', compared to the Nasuverse's estabilished ones.

Hah? Why wouldn't Rin be involved with the grail war? She's a Tohsaka, that automatically makes her a participant, practically (more specifically, there's always going to be a seat open for one of the three families in the grail war). Hell, as a Tohsaka, she'd want to get involved to win it. Family pride and all that.

Good point on this one. The question then becomes whether Rin has enough prana to both maintain Archer and help Shirou use his magatama. He simply doesn't have enough prana on his own to use even the weakest magatama for more than a few minutes tops. They are horribly draining. The only positive thing is that they will not kill him. If his prana drops to a dangerous level, the magatama will simply shut down to keep their host alive. Of course, that could be sorta fatal...

Unless he happens to live at the Ryuudouji temple, that's kind of impossible.

When Kuzuki found Caster, him bringing her to the temple was the only thing that allowed her to live, being that it's on top of a huge leyline, allowing her not to disappear from lack of prana. Unless Shirou happens to have the habit of having sex unconscious girls to feed them prana...

I had forgotten that point. Right, never mind.

Let's see...basically, Shiro is rescued by Lucifer instead of Kiritsugu. And he gets a Magatama instead of Avalon. All right, that makes sense. But where does he go from there? Who takes him in? From what I could tell from the Fate scenario, if Kiritsugu hadn't taken him in, he would have ended up in Kotomine's hands and been fodder for Gilgamesh.

You are correct on the first part. As to who takes him in, it's either Kiritsugu as in canon (remember, he took him in later, not just as soon as he was saved), or the disturbance caused by Lucifer is noticed by Zelretch himself, and he has his own plans for Shirou. I mean, seriously - IT'S LUCIFER. There's no way that he will be unnoticed by EVERYONE, and he's not really trying to hide either.

The magatama alone are reason enough for Zelretch to take Shirou in, since he'd want to figure them and their effect on Shirou out. And his connection with the Grail War's three main families gives a handy way to set something up on that angle. The Wizard Marshall isn't above a bit of manipulation if he feels the results are worth it in the long run, and his speech in his cameo in Fate implies that he has been watching the progresses of all participants.

Here's a way to fix that, though, and have him possibly be the one to rescue Caster.

We know next to nothing about Issei's family apart from that they're monks at the Temple, right? Well, let's just say his father decides to adopt Shirou. Perhaps Issei's father came across Shirou right after Lucifer gave him the Magatama. In fact, Lucifer may have led him there. I don't know much about Shin Megami Tensei, because I haven't played many of the games yet, but I really doubt it would be out of Lucifer's way to secure a safe place for Shirou. And the Temple would be a pretty safe place, I think.

A good idea. Hadn't considered that. And yes, SMT's Lucifer is exactly the kind of manipulative jackass to do that. The way he tricked Dante into working for him and attacking the Hitoshura comes to mind... he set it all up just to make him stronger.