Bleach Arrancar Arc Revised

Knyght

The Collector
I'd say it's despair rather than loneliness given the reason why souls become hollows in the first place, though they're rather similar anyway.

Then again, it might be more accurate that the true nature of a hollow is several things rather than one; despair, loneliness, emptiness, fear etc. All emotions that Ichigo might have experienced around the time of his mother's death given her apparent relevance here.

Whilst I like the idea of doing something other than a typical mind battle, what would be the point? Ichigo's gets restored to normality in the real world of course, but would this epiphany have any significance for Ichigo afterwards?
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
While despair does help cause a spirit to become a hollow, you also have to ask why do they so often despair. And oftentimes it's because they left behind the ones they loved and they slowly forgot about them. Hence why a hollow's first kill is always someone they knew.

Would help though if the wording were a bit better, more than loneliness is solitude that causes it more often than not. :mellow:
 

goldenarms

Well-Known Member
Given the latest bombshell in Ichigo's life, how does the Quincy angle factor in? Or are we going to just ignore that? ^_^
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
I'd ignore it frankly. Not only does it not really mesh with his skillset as is, but building up everything else well enough to justify the addition would be a herculean effort in itself. :mellow:
 

Vexarian

Well-Known Member
Fuck the Quincy, seriously.

But yeah, I do think the Loneliness/Solitude angle would work nicely for Hollows.

Their entire existence begins when they die, but death doesn't mean that they leave behind the living world, it's just the opposite in fact, they are left behind. They can see and hear the living without ever being able to speak with them, or be acknowledged or comforted.

If this goes on long enough, they become a Hollow and are driven to kill and devour their former loved ones. See Orihime's Brother, while he was a proper hollow his entire thing was how much he didn't want Orihime to be without him and to forget about him.

Even past their loved ones, Hollows are still driven to devour others. Essentially aggregating more individuals into themselves.

The strongest Hollow we've ever been aware of has been Stark, who's entire motif is being alone.


I do think this sort of realization and acceptance of his Hollow side could have proper lasting effects for Ichigo. You'll recall how tangential his friends have often felt to the plot, this could be an in-universe justification for that and allow for them to become more prominent there after.
 

Knyght

The Collector
Figured I might as well exercise some creativity before someone beats me to it:

Alternate Story of Zaraki Kenpachi

Hollows that possess a sufficient amount of power will carry over that spiritual power into Soul Society when they are purified by the Shinigami. This is one of the reasons for why souls with spiritual power would appear and wander in Rukongai before becoming a Shinigami. The man who would become known as Zaraki Kenpachi was originally a Vasto Lorde, the highest evolution of the Hollows. For this reason, he entered SS with an a truly rare amount of spiritual powerful and a blood thirst unlike almost anything ever seen before.

He wandered and fought and killed. He took a sword from one of his kills and his immense power soaked into the blade until it was unable to be contained and entered its released state permanently. He fought constantly and despite never learning how to properly wield a sword, his skills developed continually. However he never faced anyone with power or talent that came close to his own and he ultimately crushed everyone underfoot, to the point that he never once felt fear and never experience a ôtrue battleö.

Until he met Kenpachi Yachiru. The very start of the exchange had Zaraki pierce YachiruÆs chest while she cut his face. After growing so incredibly bored with killing, she was shocked to meet a child who could land such a blow on her when none before him had ever managed it. As they fought, Zaraki finally felt that heÆd met someone he can actually consider an opponent and was overjoyed. But for all the power he had and the skill heÆd developed, Yachiru trumped him in every area. Finally, Zaraki was defeated.

By all rights, she should have killed him just like everyone else but she recognised the immense potential she had and knew that he was eventually surpass her. She leaves him alive with the knowledge that they would one day fight again to the death. Knowing that no-one else would compare, she gives up her name and title and becomes Unohana Retsu the healer whilst she waits for him.

Zaraki continues to fight and grow in Rukongai with greater motivation than ever before, until he heads to Seiretei and kills the Tenth Kenpachi to take his place. Unohana recognises him but isnÆt willing to fight. Whilst he had grown power, Zaraki still hadnÆt been able to cross the gulf that separated them and fighting him would only end in his unsatisfying death. Surrounding by captains and at war with hollows, she believes he can still grow stronger and she continues to wait.

His fight against Ichigo was the second time he had ever lost, a result of the boy overcoming him through brute force and connection with his zanpakuto that Zaraki had never achieved. His zanpakuto had always been nothing more than a tool to him and that belief, along with his childishness and single-mindedness, preventing them from ever communicating. He attempts in the aftermath of the fight but whilst the spark had been lit, Zaraki still didnÆt truly understand the idea that his sword was a partner and that they should work together. So his attempts were mostly fruitless.

Still, he wanted to become stronger which was something he hadnÆt felt for a long time. In a way, his skills had stagnated from doing nothing more than slaughtering weak hollows for years so fighting Ichigo brought back his edge, which was fairly apparent in his confrontation with Komamura and Tousen. All of these fights helped push him further than before since he was someone who grew stronger through live combat.

He trained himself in preparation for the Arrancar War though he made no headway in communicating with his zanpakuto. Instead, he decided to alter his fighting style by choosing to wield his sword with both hands. Before that point heÆd never seen any reason to when using one hand was enough and heÆd never bothered to learn real swordsmanship. The result was the discovery that using two hands allowed him to bring his full physical force into each swing and, though he didnÆt really notice it unconsciously, it focused his immense spiritual power to a degree he normally couldnÆt achieve.

This training bore fruit when he fought Nnoitra, a fighter just like himself who was relatively slow, with no fancy tricks and relied entirely a brute force. He used his two-handed swing, one of the most basic moves of kendo, and defeated the arrancar. As always, his close brush with death pushed him further than before.

Fast-forward nearly three years and Zaraki gets utterly wrecked by the Quincy. For all his power and skill, he still hadnÆt tapped into his true potential and sheer brute force wasnÆt enough to take them. ItÆs decided that he would fight Unohana Retsu so that he can finally draw out his full strength.

They fight in the underground prison for days. Unohana literally beats all of her fighting styles into his body, cutting away at him until heÆs forced to grow more skilled just to survive. She pushed him to brink of oblivion again and again before dragging him back with her healing arts every time. He learns her skills through osmosis and in that he becomes a master of kendo on par with herself, demonstrating his remarkable talent for swordsmanship.

But that still isnÆt enough. Unohana releases her bankai and Zaraki realises that he is not strong enough. All the years of constant slaughter and this hellish training still wasnÆt enough for him to truly catch up her and he honestly believed that he would die here without ever defeating her. This epiphany shakes him to his very core. And itÆs at this moment that he remembers his fight with Ichigo again, remembers how that boy spoke of fighting alongside his zanpakuto and defeated him with it.

This time, when he apologises for treating it like a tool and asks it become his partner, he means it.

This time, when Zaraki asks for his zanpakutoÆs name, he receives an answer.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
Had a bit of a thought recently on rewriting the full bring arc, other than my usual musings on the matter. It was touched briefly that having Full Brings was not fun all in all for the users, and because of their hollow nature tended to bring the user a lot of suffering. Granted thanks to Tsukishima's power this is likely bullshit, but I think this is something that could be touched on a bit more in a rewrite to both fix the fact that the majority of fullbringers were douche-bags, other than Jackie admittedly, and also give them more of an actual motivation for stealing powers.

The concept of encroachment is something that hasn't been touched on for a while, basically the decay rate of the chain of fate for a soul that leads to them becoming a hollow. It's a concept that could easily be tied into the nature of full bring. By bonding with and making a pact with any one particular item you also tie it to your own chain of fate.

However when this bond starts to become too strong with any one object, this causes the object to pull on that chain all the harder as the strength of the bond increases. This in turn starts to decay the chain of fate as it's pulled between the user's soul and that of the object, and starts the encroachment process. Essentially the deeper the bond becomes and they more they use their own powers, the less and less human they become, until they become altogether ruled by their own abilities.

Basically similar to the Cursed Beings concept I had in that Create your own Manga concept thread only with a different cause for their turning into monsters.

The effect this could have on the particular user could vary, but largely it would likely be something mental and/or related to the object in question. You could obviously have your users who gain a berserk form on occasion, which could work for pretty much any fullbringer, but this is the obvious and thus boring choice so we want something more general and personalized a little for each user. They all could still have a stage where their powers overtake them of course, but this is a list of stuff that could also be added to their characters on top of that feature:

For Yukio, diving into his games and ignoring reality and his family for so long with his powers could have caused his general detachment from the world and literally erased any semblance of emotion from his soul. Rewriting him to not be a shithead and instead completely emotionless to everything thanks to his own overuse of his full bring could help to considerably fix his character, who initially I found to be the most compelling of the lot before he turned into a dick.

For Tsukishima, his power to slip in and out of the pasts of anything could have erased his moral code since it would be so easy to erase himself from someone's existence. Essentially explaining why he can so easily break peoples minds on a whim, he literally doesn't care about the consequences of his own actions.

For Giriko, the more he relies on making pacts with the god of time, the more he starts to lose in the process, his eye, his senses, other parts of his body, etc... Even his own age could be something added onto himself thanks to his own pacts, and it turns out he's actually much younger than he appears.

For Riruka, the obvious choice is greed, the more stuff she collects and adds to her collection, the greater her need to keep them and the more she treats whatever it is like an object to be collected, no matter what it is and even extending to people, likely leading to her collecting quite the body count over time. Technically a dark extension of what almost happened anyway, but yeah seemed like a logical extension given the general trend. :ph43r:

For someone like say Jackie, incorporating how her boots collect filth but wash it away afterward could be incorporated in it causing misfortune to those around her, like the washed off filth is being cast on those close to her instead, likely causing her own families horrible fates. :blue:

Hell for our old pal Moe, potential for the act of using his fullbring to eat away at his own luck in life (Meaning he more often gets the short end of the stick in life for lulz).

Stuff like that basically.

Now where the stealing powers comes in is that the act of stealing powers from other fullbringers and incorporating it into their own decreases the depth of the bond created between the user and the object by adding another layer to their abilities, reducing the pull on their chain of fate and thus slowing or altogether stopping the encroachment. So basically the more complex they make their fullbrings, the less the negative effects start to take hold, while at the same time making their own abilities more powerful.

Of course any previous damage to the chain of fate is either permanent or takes a long time to recover, but regardless it's still better than the damage progressing until they basically become a living hollow, a fate worse than death. :ph43r:
 

Knyght

The Collector
I like it. That's something I'd be willing to use if I ever wrote something.

But, assuming we're going with the canon explanation of his powers, what about Chad? :eek:
 
Hmm..it's based off his skin and the pride of his grandfather, right?

Why not have it sap away his memories of his grandfather with his right hand, and his left hand forgets his friends? Soon he can't remember what he's protecting or why he's fighting, only just fighting.
 

Vexarian

Well-Known Member
That doesn't seem to mesh with NGD's idea. Admittedly I don't like the idea of Chad as a Fullbring to begin with, I think he should be something more unique. But if he were, and if NGD's idea were canon, it would make more sense if his powers had either an effect on his skin and body, or upon his pride.

If you were going for the tragic, possibly exaggerate his stature and musculature and make him all around more imposing and, potentially monstrous while not affecting his mind or disposition.

If you were going for the funny, maybe something more Lucha Libre flavored? Meh.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
Yeah, Chad in general never really meshed with the fullbring concept from the start. As I've stated before, if Fullbring literally only works on the object most important to them, it would pretty much have to be his Coin no matter how you spin it. MAYBE his arms if we really stretched it, but his skin is something he's literally never mentioned as having great pride in, that was pretty much always the coin. If anyone was going to be based on the Full Bring concept of the cast, the only one who'd make sense was Orihime, since the hairpins were always important to her and they're the entire basis of her ability.

Well regardless, if we do still run with Chad being a Full Bringer (as opposed to adding a Full Bring on top of his powers using the coin like I did with El VÝnculo or knight504 did with Escudo del Padre), and ignore the fact that by bonding his soul to what is essentially his body anyway shouldn't really affect the chain of fate since that's what it's naturally bonded to (In a rather ironic twist), there's a number of options to run with. The fact that it's so heavily related to his already unnatural body and his pride in it would be the logical choice. Mayhaps a power that actively corrupts the living body, slowly converting it into something monstrous, making quite literally a living hollow.

Course if we go with El VÝnculo instead, ignoring that that particular power already adds complexity to his Full Bring by granting him multiple channeling options including his body and Shibata thus likely he'd naturally be immune to encroachment, loss of the semblance of self because he leaves his soul open to everything in the vicinity would be logical. Basically the more he leaves his soul open like that, the less he starts thinking of himself as 'I' as opposed to 'We'.

Escudo del Padre on the flipside, being purely a shield based power would likely lead to him closing off from everyone, your standard wall around the heart type situation, likely not helped by his already quite nature. In turn that would be a logical extension of the effect of his shield arm if we went with that instead too, while the attack arm increases his own violent nature, so not only does he close himself off more, he also becomes more prone to attacking anyone who does try to get close.

Though again, this depends on which option we run with. There's a lot of variants possible since his power is rather outside the norm for a Full Bringer.
 

Vexarian

Well-Known Member
The coin thing was what I was first thinking when Chad was first introduced to this Fullbring bullshit, honestly I still think it had way more potential than the crap we got.

Chad's always been lagging a bit behind the really important people, giving him something new and entirely separate could have finally gotten him on par.
 

Knyght

The Collector
What kind of thing were you thinking? When it comes to Chad, the usual ideas that come to mind are either making his coin a fullbring or extending his armour to cover his whole body, so he becomes similar to an arrancar. They'd allow him to step up to the plate but they don't strike me as unique or special in the way that you mean.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
Chad's general strength curve is a bit weird in general, and mostly it boils down to Kubo's inconsistencies. People often forget that even his original arm was capable of a blast that even Shunsui outright admittedly would have destroyed him had it hit. Admittedly one could argue the validity of that, but fact remains that was his base arm and he's had two upgrades since then and it was a defensive power anyway, so what he has now should be an order of magnitude more nasty than that with his attack arm. Yet he's doing zero damage to Nnoitra and Tesla had some kind of ability that blocked his blow, that when Tesla shouldn't even remotely be in his power range at all.

Barring flash steps which he fixed when fighting Mosqueda, Chad should have not had any issue with any enemy below and arguably at vice captain level in any facet at any point during and past the SS-arc. This is the guy who literally one shot a Third Seat (Arguably vice captain level given recent reveals, though admittedly timeskip might be involved there) in the middle of his attack with barely more than a shrug with his base arm. Granted a joke of a third seat, but a third seat none the less.

Obviously something with flash steps could still dance around his blows anyway, but both attack wise and defense wise nothing below that level should have slowed him down at all. And provided he could land a blow nothing bar the top espada should have been able to shrug it off. That he had the problems he did with D-Roy and Aisslinger, even granting flash step advantages still baffles me. And Tesla, critical wounded as he was or not should have not been able to repel that.

Though granted all those cases rather reeked of plot. Aisslinger in particular as even Ishida had a rather bullshit time during that fight till they switched. I'd even argue Nnoitra's admittedly superior Hierro should not have LOLNO'd that blow quite that easily if again two upgrades ago he was touting strikes that gave Shunsui pause. Granted Bankai Ichigo couldn't get through that Hierro either but that too was rather Shenanigans even if Ichigo was rather shit that entire arc.

Really, seemingly the only disadvantage he has seems to be randomly he lacks the attack or defensive power we know he has already at key points purely to service the plot randomly. I suppose a Heirro equivalent or at least Regen would fix the most major issue of him going down too easily with one blow, but even that kind of ignores the core problem of the inconsistencies surrounding his developments.
 

Knyght

The Collector
I've always thought that Hierro was a rather significant factor in these days; big difference between hitting iron and hitting flesh. And I'd since they have different levels of Hierro, they're probably harder than actual iron in most cases. If the Arrancar didn't have iron skin I think the protags wouldn't have had nearly as much trouble as they did in most cases. Physically, I think the humans and shinigami are a lot more vulnerable to damage even if they can still survive it.

Hence why Ichigo's Getsuga could cut up Urahara and Byakuya just by grazing them but achieves little against the arrancar, not helped by the size of it which I think just makes it too blunt to be effective usually. Same with Chad; taking it at face value, he could potentially kill Shunsui with a direct hit but couldn't do the same with the Arrancar because their skin's too damn hard.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
Even then the scale of attacks that supposedly damages it varies wildly. How is a blow capable of killing Shunsui in one hit LOLNO'd, but say Nel can pull it off in a casual slash or Kenpachi can do it with his patch on? Well granted Kenpachi got rather bullshit recently so scaling him no longer works, but even then I could even deeper still to all the weird cases where Heirro fluctuates like hell.
 

Knyght

The Collector
I'd wager that cutting attacks are far more effective than blunt force attacks, so using a sword works better than using a fist. Like how Yoruichi ended up breaking her arm when she fought Yammy before of his skin's attacks. He's apparently on the extreme end of Hierro but it shows that hand-to-hand combat is probably one of the least effective methods of fighting these guys. Chad's attack is devastating but still a punch so it's less effective than a cutting attack with the same destructive power would be.*

Still, it's pretty shitty that Chad basically gets screwed over fighting these guys when he's meant to be "the strong one".

*Edit: So by all rights Ichigo should be able to manage better, he just doesn't use it the right way imo. Better if he compressed it into as thin a shape as possible rather than letting it blow outwards like usual. The way he held a Getsuga in his sword is probably his best way of attacking the arrancar since his physical strength doesn't seem to match some other characters. Or it could be a better of skill/experience.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
I'd have argued given Ichigo that it would be the other way around. Ichigo's cutting attacks were basically worthless when it came to Hierro, absurdly so in the majority of cases. Meanwhile Yoruichi was basically devastating Yammi with blunt force. Sure she was hurting herself since his skin was hard but by comparison it was actually working.

Though I suppose on the reverse side Ichigo did manage to cut his arm off in the same instance, though it's a feat he really doesn't pull off again. Somehow Base Pat's heirro gave him significant amounts of trouble, while both Nnoitra and Yammi apparently have better heirro's than him.

Something I should ponder more on I suppose. :huh.:
 

Knyght

The Collector
Does Yammy always have the second-strongest Hierro or is that only when he's released? Is it ever clarified?

Vexarian said:
I meant allowing Chad to use Fullbring on his Coin, and manifest another entirely separate power to his arms. Something complimentary perhaps.
On that front, I probably would have changed the way Chad's powers developed back in Hueco Mundo. Instead of an arm of defence and an arm of offence, I'd have both arms developed as a result of the fight and be classified as a single power. Rather than his abuelo's spirit residing in his right arm, it'd be tied with his coin as a fullbring which would transform into a shield. I find the idea of actual shield preferable to that shield arm he has.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
Databook in question that reveals that states so prior to any information about him being the zero espada, so it strictly applies to him in his 10th espada state.

Also I agree the shield arm is weird, mostly due to the shape in relation to his arm. That specifically why I specifically granted it the ability to rotate so he could hold it more naturally. Would likely have been a better idea design wise to either have it be circular, or instead grant Chad the ability to just make an energy sheild from the arm attachments ala Magic shields in Kingdoms of Amalur:



Freaking amazing concept by the by.

Make no mistake, I like the sort of engine vibe the shield has going for it as is, able to shoot energy out the back to propel himself forwards, and the two spikes in the front make for excellent charge attack potential, but to use it like a shield the shape as is is just plain wrong unless it can rotate on its own. The reason shields normally have that center jut on the top is to defend your head, which is straight up impossible for his arm to do as it's shaped, unless it rotates. :mellow:

Actually the ability for his arms to sort of shift shape and twist around at will might be superior to my old obsession with just having multiple forms. Maybe his left generates multiple spikes to channel the black lightning he uses more efficiently while the other generates more fins to repel attacks and expel energy from to propel himself or fire off attacks.

Certainly if the main shield's normal state is more compressed it would still allow for propulsion while being able to extend and rotate only when needed to actually defend instead... :hmm:
 

Knyght

The Collector
@[~NGD OMEGA~]: In regards to the discussion about Chad vs Nnoitra, I was just reminded of Ichigo's ineffective strike against Kenpachi when they first met. Could it be that the reason Chad did so little damage against Nnoitra was because he not only had to contend with Hierro, but there was also a difference between their respective reiatsu?
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
So that's how tagging works. Good thing the notice came up or I would have missed this.

Also that is unlikely, since the specific rule is if your reiatsu is too weak compared to their passive reiatsu, it's you who is hurt instead. At least when it comes to Melee attacks and the only example we have is with swords hence Ichigo's hand getting cut. Presumably a Getsuuga wouldn't do the same thing to him since it's a fired attack and works under different mechanics. Regardless, since Chad wasn't hurt by said blow, it's unlikely that had anything to do with it.
 

~NGD OMEGA~

Well-Known Member
Obviously not, however it's impossible to tell if that entire scene was an illusion or not, so it's not solid either way.
 
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