Batman Beyond: Return of the Bat

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#1
Ok first off this will be set after the future in JLU's Epilogue with an even more elderly Bruce taking care of Terry, just to give you a time frame. The basic premise takes Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker to the next level and plays with the classic dynamic that the Joker and Bruce are two sides of the same coin.

One thing that always got me thinking during RotJoker was if the technology existed to implant the Joker's entire consciousness into an unwilling Tim Drake, what would happen with someone that either wanted to join with the Joker, or was too weak minded to fight back against him? Heck, what would happen if the technology behind the chip was improved upon with the decades of advances between the first death of the Joker and his return?

Then I got to thinking and wondered where the no-name leader of the Jokerz was during the movie? You know the one the dressed in the actual purple suit and said "Don't you know who we are? We're the Jokerz!" before Bruce kicked his ass in the pilot episode?

And finally, I got to thinking that for as insane as he is the Joker is not beyond having a back-up plan. In fact his plans in BB were somewhat linear in a way that seemed too easy to follow looking back, and the Joker's mad schemes really are only supposed to make sense to him, and possibly Batman.




"You know Bats, the kid was close, but he never really got it that day did he? Why we go round and round like we do, I mean. You see it wasn't that I could never get a laugh out of you. Oh no, that's just not your way. No the reason we go round and round is because you get it. You get the Joke. You see these people for what they really are because you've felt the world as it really is, just like me.

Bruce Wayne became nothing more than a mask, something to blend in a little better with them, but even in your head I bet you think of yourself as Batman because that's who you are. Just like me.

All I am is the Joker, no past no future, just the present. When you think about my past all I can say is that it's multiple choice, and that suits me just fine. And deep down it suits you too because you GET it.

Now there are differences of course. The dark and mysterious protector and the jovial and lighthearted villain. I know I certainly won the battle of fashion sense if nothing else, not that it matters. We approach the world in different ways but we both see it for what it is. We both evolved because of one Bad Day. One. Bad. Day.

We both saw the world on out Bad Day. We both saw the holiest of holies. We both saw the Joke.

The only difference was you didn't think it was funny I couldn't stop laughing. That's what your little boy bat missed. He thinks I want to explain the Joke to you and make you laugh. That I need to give you a nice big smile. But you already got the Joke. You just have no sense of humor to appreciate it.

And so we go round and round, the only two really sane people in a mad world trying to see things that aren't there," the Joker said in the most even tones he had ever used. He was dressed in a nurses uniform as he looked over the prone form of Bruce Wayne as the man clung to life on a respirator after a severe heart attack.

"But you see there is something else we sane people understand in our madness. I'll freely admit you're the only one that is my equal, Bats. That's what made our little philosophical debate so much fun. And that's why I know you're in here because you want to be. I know you well enough to know you have at least half a dozen toys and tricks to escape the Reaper just like you can always escape me. The wrinkled old disguise of yours is outliving it's usefulness and you thought you could stop with it, but it isn't that simple, oh no.

You see if you go I'm all alone in a mad world and I can't have that. I'll just have to watch it burn like it always should. Kill the Batbrat, maybe finish what the bullet did in Babsy-boo's spine before the surgery got her back up on her feet. So you have to ask yourself, Batman, can you really leave me to myself. You've got however much time to decide as it takes me to get bored," the Joker leered with a smile before breaking off into his trademark cackles and exiting the hospital, leaving more than a dozen dead in the wake of his conversation.
 

shiki

Well-Known Member
#2
Seems pretty solid. One thing tho'. In this timeline Babs didn't get shot.

Edit: Whoops, thats what I get for skimming.
 

Ina_meishou

Well-Known Member
#3
Hmm, Mildly confusing, which fits the Joker I suppose.

So your saying that he Joker is still kicking, and he wants Batman, the real old bats, to keep on with him till the end of days?

Interesting.
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#4
shiki said:
Seems pretty solid. One thing tho'. In this timeline Babs didn't get shot.
I'm kind of blending some comic elements to make things a little darker. I'm thinking in a world where people like Cyborg were still up and mobile she could have an Oracle period and still recover. I'm also trying to channel a little of the Dark Knight!Joker into the animated Batman one.

The theme is pretty simple, the Joker knows Bruce well enough to know he could come up with a way to fight back if pushed, so the Joker will push him to use it. And the bodies will keep piling up until the only other person to get the Joke is back in the game. People like Terry will be in for a rude awakening and if he's not careful Terry might get to see how he reacts to his own Bad Day.

Bruce became a protector.

The Joker became a monster.

Jason became something in between as Red Hood.

Tim became a pawn that just wanted out.
 
#5
Nice so far. I do like how you're drawing on numerous elements of Batman for this story. Though I must admit, I think you're making DCAU Bruce too much like the comic Batman. A little too calculating, at least from the Joker's POV. Still, I look forward to more.
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#6
Andrew Joshua Talon said:
Nice so far. I do like how you're drawing on numerous elements of Batman for this story. Though I must admit, I think you're making DCAU Bruce too much like the comic Batman. A little too calculating, at least from the Joker's POV. Still, I look forward to more.
Well keep in mind that he's lying in the hospital on a respirator in that scene AJT. The Joker pretty much defines batshit crazy. If he could come up with a way to cheat death and old age, Batman must have several.

The scary thing is he's not too far off. Can anyone here say Lazarus pit? It's more a matter of how far you need to push Bruce to get to that point. If Ra's could do it playing Talia the Joker can do it killing and maiming people.
 

parker

Well-Known Member
#7
DhampyrX2 said:
I'm also trying to channel a little of the Dark Knight!Joker into the animated Batman one.
What? Why?

The Joker from the Cartoon was a trickster, a killer, he wasn't some sociopath trying to change the world like some idiot goth who just picked up a copy of Nietzsche, he's a man who doesn't give a shit except where Bats is.

The Dar knight's Joker was good, but he aint got shit on the Joker from the comics or cartoon.
 

TerraBull

Well-Known Member
#8
A question about BatMan's Villans? How many of them do have the option of extended life? The Pit for one, Mr. Freeze's version, Clayface being a unsatble mass of ?, Maybe Poison Ivy if she went on that bent, becomming a self renewing plant creature?
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#9
parker said:
DhampyrX2 said:
I'm also trying to channel a little of the Dark Knight!Joker into the animated Batman one.
What? Why?

The Joker from the Cartoon was a trickster, a killer, he wasn't some sociopath trying to change the world like some idiot goth who just picked up a copy of Nietzsche, he's a man who doesn't give a shit except where Bats is.

The Dark Knight's Joker was good, but he ain't got shit on the Joker from the comics or cartoon.
Mostly the point where the Joker could even recognize the similarities between himself and Batman. No other incarnation, barring strange moments of lucidity in the comic, seemed to care. There won't be much of Nolan's Joker here. For example he will rely more on Smilex than a knife to give someone a smile, but there will be a little more psychology to how I explain (or fail to) how random the Joker is. I just want him dark enough to finish people off on camera, something the nature of the animated format denied.

And yes, Tim shot him dead, no freak "he stumbled into the equipment" retcon to get past the censors here.

Think of this Joker as an amalgam of cartoon, comic, and movies. Rotten to the core and laughing all the way.



? A question about BatMan's Villans? How many of them do have the option of extended life? The Pit for one, Mr. Freeze's version, Clayface being a unstable mass of ?, Maybe Poison Ivy if she went on that bent, becoming a self renewing plant creature?
Ra's escaped. I refuse to think it was that easy. Whether he's still in Talia's body or has moved to another option is up for debate but you don't figure out 500 years of how to cheat death just to buy it in a collapsing hideout. If that could kill him Superman would have finished him off in the episode where he tried to steal the boyscout's powers to flush out the problems that were keeping him from using the Pits again.

Clayface, well there are like half a dozen Clayfaces of various kinds of you go by the comics, and some of them are indeed effectively immortal. But for the sake of continuity I could see Matt Hagen running around.

I could very easily see Poison Ivy still running around and in good shape. It's not hard to see her going from her plant cloning experiments (where she was married shortly to the doctor that would become Swamp Thing believe it or not) to splicing herself and becoming a living plant. If she was keeping an eye out for Harley or her granddaughters I could even see her aware the the Joker's return and getting ready to mobilize some efforts to counter him.

Harley is obviously too old at this point to be a threat. Well unless Mistah J or her favorite redhead cooks something up and she gets caught in the middle.

Solomon Grundy, while not exclusively Batman's problem, is alive so to speak in so much as a corpse animated repeatedly by the same forces that made Swamp Thing into a nature elemental keeps waking him back up.


On the other end of things, We know Superman, Wonder Woman, Martian Manhunter, and Big Barda at least are all still alive and in good shape.



Now onto the part where I ask for suggestions to start fleshing things out. I have a horrible mental image of Dana, Terry Mom, and Matt meeting a nasty Joker-fueled end while Terry and Babs are trussed up and forced to watch. I might even add in Barbara's DA husband to the mix for flavor. A situation like that could push Bruce to act no matter how ready he is to lay down and die.
 

TerraBull

Well-Known Member
#10
In Batman beyond, in reffrence to Harley, I think it mentioned Harley being a Grandma with 2 Granddaughters who were part of the Jokerz?

If she were brought back/ youthened, I do not think she would have the same attitude as when younger.

On a :eek:t: subject, what happened to the Old Area where Batman used to Patrol? In the future it is mentioned as abbandoned and being prevented from being bulldozed/ demolished by Wayne personally, especially the area where Wayne's parents were shot, how big is that area exactly?

Not sure how much the area itself would be worth, but for a city that has changed and space is at a premium, it must be Mega Bucks.

Thanks for the replies.

On pushing Batman to act, it may take a few more folks added, with a Broadcast Live! so everyone could see, as well as a public challenge, what else you can say, he loves attention and entertainment. If the Joker had enough influence, he may arrange something so other Hero's could not interfear (Like Superman)
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#11
Harley is indeed the DD twins grandmother. That's why I say she's too old to be in the game unless Joker or Ivy pull something screwy, mist likely against her will. I's almost see something akin to the Harley's Holiday episode where she ends up in circumstances beyond her control before saying "screw it" and going just a little bit crazy again.

I have to admit the public forum with Terry trapped, at least one hostage dead, and several others on the way is how I see Joker calling Batman out. It's just not in the Joker's nature to do anything other than a grand gesture that will catch as much attention as possible.

As for your :eek:t: , Crime Alley was indeed bulldozed by the BB era in Bruce's dime. Think of it an area somewhere between Park Avenue and Harlem in size, as it's used as a kind of amalgam of before and after of those areas in the comics. I could see it being a high class area again, as it was when Bruce was little, when it was called Park Row. Even without a huge crime problem I could still bee Batman patrolling there, although it won't need it as much as it did before.
 

railhazard

Well-Known Member
#12
An idea to bring back the old bat to tip top shape to smack around the Joker?

A golden apple from the garden of Hesperid gifted by Wonder Woman as a last ditch effort to snare Bruce.

Those Apple were fabled to grant those who would eat them Youth and Immortality.

So sue me, I like the Diana/Bruce pairing.
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#14
Ina_meishou said:
railhazard said:
I like the Diana/Bruce pairing.
Nothing wrong with that.
I don't mind it at all, particularly in the animated universe.

But let's fact it, this is still Batman and you can't make things too perfect for him. Also, keep in mind that Diana wasn't working as part of the JLU as presented in those episodes of Batman Beyond (granted only because the family that owns the rights to Wonder Woman refused to sign off on using her thus making them use Big Barda instead). I could see her returning to Paradise Island after Bruce did something to strain things between them, but still leaving the apple with him.

I could see the apple, a refined Lazarus Pit formula encoded after studying how he reacted to the pits the first time, a variation of the technology the Joker used, and two or three other options that could put him back into the game all sitting in the Batcave right now in a hidden secure vault.

Actually, I could see the apple being given to Bruce by Hippolyta in an effort to help Diana snare him more than Diana giving him the apple. Diana would respect Bruce's decision to remain a regular human among metas and respect his desire to remain emotionally distant from her because he will eventually grow old and die. Hippolyta would be more concerned with her daughter's happiness than his issues.
 
#15
Well, I thought this was good. I loved the Timm-verse; BTAS is one of my favorite t.v. shows period, animated or not. Batman Beyond, or the few episodes of it I managed to see, was really good too.

This gets my approval.
 
#16
DhampyrX2 said:
People like Terry will be in for a rude awakening and if he's not careful Terry might get to see how he reacts to his own Bad Day.
So the death of Terry's dad WASN'T a Bad Day, even though it's why he became Batman?
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#17
Christopher Robin said:
DhampyrX2 said:
People like Terry will be in for a rude awakening and if he's not careful Terry might get to see how he reacts to his own Bad Day.
So the death of Terry's dad WASN'T a Bad Day, even though it's why he became Batman?
Not by Cadmus' standards anyway. They were going to use Phantasm to kill both of his parents at the proper age but she backed out. Terry still had people to cling to after his Dad died with his mother and Matt there.

Besides, would the Joker even care about what happened before? He's a here an now kind of guy.
 
#18
Hey what about Scott Free and Orion? Can't you reasonably believe they might still be around as well.

Some interesting ideas, but you know . . . I think Terry's proven himself and he isn't a slouch. It might not have been THE Joker, but Terry at least knew how to get under the Joker's skin.

Also, Terry/Dana = w1n, so you shouldn't mess that up.

Also, what about Dick? Older than dirty at this point, but probably still around.
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#19
TheVileOne said:
Hey what about Scott Free and Orion? Can't you reasonably believe they might still be around as well.

Some interesting ideas, but you know . . . I think Terry's proven himself and he isn't a slouch. It might not have been THE Joker, but Terry at least knew how to get under the Joker's skin.

Also, Terry/Dana = w1n, so you shouldn't mess that up.

Also, what about Dick? Older than dirty at this point, but probably still around.
I never said they wouldn't. It would be a bit cumbersome to list every DC immortal, long lived, and still just plain young enough to still be alive character.

Dick is either still alive or died on the job. I haven't worked that out yet.

And this isn't about Terry not being able to hack it, it's about the Joker and his view of the world. Bruce is Batman and things just aren't fun without Batman to screw with.

And mentioning Dana likes that really makes me want to have him ask her "Why so serious?" A happy Batman just doesn't work right.
 

Deathsheadx

Well-Known Member
#20
you know on some level i see this as a sort of vanity project to get the old batman back

even if you claim otherwise the implication of this short is terry is somehow not good enough to handle the joker, that it has to be the original to truly deal with him. terry got the best of the joker in his teens, he's now an adult who's had further training and therefore more knowledgable and skilled he should be able to handle joker. (heck if bruce understands the joker i'm sure he would of made sure that terry has a better understanding of what made his old foes tick)

i also find the idea of bruce possibly having a cheat death, return to youth scenario that he didnt use earlier kinda poor. bruce is that hardcore on crime if he had a way to continue to fight he would never of hung up the cowl.
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#21
Deathsheadx said:
you know on some level i see this as a sort of vanity project to get the old batman back

even if you claim otherwise the implication of this short is terry is somehow not good enough to handle the joker, that it has to be the original to truly deal with him. terry got the best of the joker in his teens, he's now an adult who's had further training and therefore more knowledgable and skilled he should be able to handle joker. (heck if bruce understands the joker i'm sure he would of made sure that terry has a better understanding of what made his old foes tick)

i also find the idea of bruce possibly having a cheat death, return to youth scenario that he didnt use earlier kinda poor. bruce is that hardcore on crime if he had a way to continue to fight he would never of hung up the cowl.
Well that's your opinion I suppose, although I look at it more as the Joker not settling for anything other than the Batman he knows. I will say this though, Terry got the best of the Joker once, while Tim was apparently in control enough to make the Joker trash the Robin suit in the Batcave to help deal with Tim's issues, not the Joker's. He used Smilex on Bruce, which we know canonically that he can resist, instead of killing him outright. In many ways you could argue that Tim had some kind of dulling effect on the Joker's mania.

Now add a few comic elements to the Joker's personality. Nightwing might be able to stop him from time to time, but he can't handle him. The fact that he nearly crossed the line and thought he had killed him proved that. Jason died thinking he could deal with him. Tim never had a chance in RotJoker.

It's never easy with the Joker.

And frankly Terry's biggest threat here is the fact that he would think exactly the same way you do. It's not that he can't hack it, it's that he won't see the real Clown Price of Crime coming until it's too late.

Honestly, Terry is more like Bruce's helper monkey in Batman Beyond than he is the real Bat. Even Barbara warned him that Bruce probably set it all up and was using him. We never see Terry doing more than rudimentary detective work and he's wired for sound with Bruce the entire time. Just because he's older doesn't mean he developed his bilogical father's obsessive-compulsive need to improve himself and pour over every detail of the mission. Frankly he has too many good things in his life to function as Batman in the same way Bruce did. Dick had the same problem.

As for Bruce having several ways to do something that would seem totally unethical and against his nature like reversing his aging and resuming the mantle, you did see the Lazarus Pit episode didn't you? It took Talia's tight ass, and a little bit of staged mayhem where he couldn't handle a couple of the Jokerz to push Bruce into using the pits there. Frankly it's more in line with his canon personality to keep temptations like that there to torture/test himself against than it is to leave them for athers to abuse. Bruce is a planner. He might not like the plans he makes, he might not want to ever use them, but he'll have them in place regardless.

I agree with you on the hanging up the cowl thing in so much as I always hated that part of the Batman Beyond concept. Frankly the Kingdom Come scenario where he was all but crippled by Two-Face and Bane, who killed Alfred in the process, demonstrated a more Bat-like situation response. His body failed him so what did he do? Built a fleet of Bat-robots that do his patrols for him while he coordinated and controlled them from the Batcave. The idea that Bruce Wayne of all people would give up because of a heart problems and advancing age is just silly. The only thing that would have stopped him was the grave.

In the end though it's not about how we, the readers, from our safe perspective beyond the fourth wall perceive things. It's about the just to the left way the Joker would see them. Batman understood the game. Batman made everything fun. And a world without Batman just isn't worth handling. He already saw Terry as "Batfake." That won't improve without Tim in his head to cause problems as he wrestles for control. In the Joker's mind all Bruce Wayne is was a public face. Batman is Batman, not a hereditary title or a job that needs to be done.
 

Deathsheadx

Well-Known Member
#22
see i disagree. you're allowing your perceptions of B:TAS color the way you view batman beyond. in your mind(going by statements in your last post) you basicly admited that you dont see terry as being good enough to go up against the joker. i see no evidence to support that view especialy since we're talking about AFTER return of the joker. he managed to survive and best the joker, he got into the joker's head. that is impressive by itself, now coming out of that experience you dont think he learned, or bruce helped him get even better? he's bruce's protege, you know, the guy who produced nightwing? bruce would make sure he's up to snuff, heck technically he can fight without the suit.
 

DhampyrX2

Well-Known Member
#23
Deathsheadx said:
see i disagree. you're allowing your perceptions of B:TAS color the way you view batman beyond. in your mind(going by statements in your last post) you basicly admited that you dont see terry as being good enough to go up against the joker. i see no evidence to support that view? especialy since we're talking about AFTER return of the joker. he managed to survive and best the joker, he got into the joker's head. that is impressive by itself, now coming out of that experience you dont think he learned, or bruce helped him get even better? he's bruce's protege, you know, the guy who produced nightwing? bruce would make sure he's up to snuff, heck technically he can fight without the suit.
You're certainly entitled to you opinion. I don't agree with it, but you're entitled to it.


Now that that's settled, anyone have any other suggestions on things they'd like see or think should be included in this idea before I get rolling. It will be a couple of days since I'm beyond swamped with work right now so feel free to chime in.
 

parker

Well-Known Member
#24
I'd kinda like to see a Rejuvenated!Bruce vs. Terry fight.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#25
There is no way Bruce would use the pits. He knows the cause. And hw knows an insane Bruce Wayne would do much worse than the Joker ever could.
 
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