Well here's a rock-solid reason for why it's not going to happen: genre conventions. Specifically that one about the heroes being the only ones with any chance of stopping the bad guys, because otherwise why would they bother to be heroes at all? "Let the police handle this shit, I got stuff to do!"
Bishoujo Maou Tsukino Usagi!
- Thread starter Comartemis
- Start date
GenocideHeart said:
Inaba said:
I dunno, if I had to pick between semi-benevolent dictatorship and what amounts to anarchy with a different label, I'd take the dictatorship any day, any time.
SMT is a textbook case of how the road to disaster is paved with good intentions. I'd say Hell, but even Hell thinks God has jumped right off the moral event horizon.
Reimu said:
GenocideHeart said:
Inaba said:
I dunno, if I had to pick between semi-benevolent dictatorship and what amounts to anarchy with a different label, I'd take the dictatorship any day, any time.
SMT is a textbook case of how the road to disaster is paved with good intentions. I'd say Hell, but even Hell thinks God has jumped right off the moral event horizon.
GenocideHeart said:
Enjoy your Kingdom of Heaven in SMT, where you have no say in any matter because God decides for you. And it's very benevolent - he even does all the THINKING for you. For your own good, after all.
SMT is a textbook case of how the road to disaster is paved with good intentions. I'd say Hell, but even Hell thinks God has jumped right off the moral event horizon.
SMT is a textbook case of how the road to disaster is paved with good intentions. I'd say Hell, but even Hell thinks God has jumped right off the moral event horizon.
But in general, if I had to choose between a dictatorship or complete chaos, I'd take the dictatorship. Sure, there's some leeway depending on the exact circumstances and this is entirely up to personal preference, but I see it as steering between Scylla and Charbydis.
Sure, both options suck but Scylla's better than Charbydis. She has a good chance of eating you and your buddies, but it's still much less than the whole hundred percent chance of the whirlpool taking the entire ship.
But this is digressing . . . so when can we expect Ophanim to show up in fanfiction?
Nothing's cooler than burning wheels with eyes.
Devil Survivor God isn't as bad(relatively), as he actually gives humanity more of a chance and more time with the lockdown.
But in other games he is much worse, like in SMT 1 even the devil is like back up big g, going too far man. God also just enforces his will regardless of the voices of humanity and with little/no warning .
But in other games he is much worse, like in SMT 1 even the devil is like back up big g, going too far man. God also just enforces his will regardless of the voices of humanity and with little/no warning .
Reimu said:
Devil Survivor God isn't as bad(relatively), as he actually gives humanity more of a chance and more time with the lockdown.
But in other games he is much worse, like in SMT 1 even the devil is like back up big g, going too far man.? God also just enforces his will regardless of the voices of humanity and with little/no warning .
But in other games he is much worse, like in SMT 1 even the devil is like back up big g, going too far man.? God also just enforces his will regardless of the voices of humanity and with little/no warning .
That's all you need to know. Chaos tends to be a much more humanity-friendly outcome in SMT than Law. Sure you'll have to struggle, but demons respect power - any human who manages to win that respect will be A-OK in their eyes.
God, on the other hand? If even so much as a dozen people refuse to worship him, he nukes the whole town to 'set an example'. It's what he does to Valhalla in SMT2 just to nail TWO people. A whole town - at least 10,000 inhabitants - swallowed by Maou Abaddon just to get rid (or rather mostly fail to, as you are OK) of a couple people.
Demon's may repect power, but most humans are never going to be perticularly powerful. A dictator ship may suck. It may really really suck. But chaos is going to end with 90% of humanity dead, 9& of it enslaved in horrible conditions, .99% of it fighting to ilk out a sustance level existance, and .01% of it actually having some kind of freedom or luxury.
You're still having a anarchy version tyrrany debate - and that still leaves Queen Serenity looking quite white in compairison. While I would advise against it, if you want to make the two options equally bad your going to either need to find some way to make Serenity a whole lot worse, or Beryl a whole lot nicer. Probably both, human can (and repeatedly have) found happiness in aweful circumstances, but you don'g even get to be happy again when you're dead.
lask said:
You're still having a anarchy version tyrrany debate - and that still leaves Queen Serenity looking quite white in compairison.
Anarchy pretty much instantly degenerates into about the worst cresspool imaginable, and we're all so dependent on the Infrastructure of society to servive that almost all of us would die within a couple of months, except those of us who managed to achive the high honor of being of the the new warlords slaves (and if Beryl is serious about the whole anarchy thing she's going to be periodically stomping those out... <a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlelewwvnvy?from=Main.MortonsFork' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>so yeah...</a>), which would generally such so much that you would gleefully jump at the chance to be brainwashed happy. At least your happy, your basic needs are met, and you don't have to worry about being raped to death from all eleven basic orifices (Eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth, nipples, anus, urethra), plus the new ones that add as you're raped to death.
There really isn't a compairison.
There really isn't a compairison.
lask said:
Anarchy pretty much instantly degenerates into about the worst cresspool imaginable, and we're all so dependent on the Infrastructure of society to servive that almost all of us would die within a couple of months, except those of us who managed to achive the high honor of being of the the new warlords slaves (and if Beryl is serious about the whole anarchy thing she's going to be periodically stomping those out... <a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ptitlelewwvnvy?from=Main.MortonsFork' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>so yeah...</a>), which would generally such so much that you would gleefully jump at the chance to be brainwashed happy. At least your happy, your basic needs are met, and you don't have to worry about being raped to death from all eleven basic orifices (Eyes, nostrils, ears, mouth, nipples, anus, urethra), plus the new ones that add as you're raped to death.
There really isn't a compairison.
There really isn't a compairison.
And quite apart from questions of human capacity for good and evil, we're social creatures, even if the government up and vanished we'd still band together into communities for mutual protection, it wouldn't instantly devolve into every man for himself.
Actually, when you look at the forms of 'anarchy' in both Disgaea and SMT, you will find out that demons are pretty damn laid back. Chaos demons in SMT just want to party hard until they drop, but they also have enough common sense to keep infrastructures working, because it's no fun if the roof caves in on the party. And while they mostly view humans as wimps, if a sufficiently powerful human lays down the law, they'll leave the puny ones alone too.
It's all a matter of the strongest one calling the shots. And ironically, in SMT the strongest one always ends up being a HUMAN.
It does help that several powerful demons, including Lucifer, find humans amusing and actively try to keep them around because it'd be boring without them. And some demons get those massive obsessions with humans of their choosing - Belial and Nebiros going gaga over Alice comes to mind.
And of course there's also Strange Journey's Chaos ending, where Mem Aleph specifically says she will make sure humanity is cared for - provided they are willing to shed their mortal shells and abandon technology, returning to their original selves, since she's sick and tired of the human race polluting her (Mem Aleph is an incarnation of Mother Earth, and, well, can you blame her for being pissy at humans?).
About the only time in SMT where the Law path isn't a BAD END in disguise is in Devil Survivor, where at least God lets the main character (as the Messiah) and Remiel (who's the only angel who gives a shit about humans instead of viewing them as pests that need culling) call the shots over how to handle mankind. And even then it's only thanks to Remiel, who pestered him until he gave humans a second chance.
As for Disgaea... Disgaea demons PRETEND to be bad, but most of them are actually pretty cool guys, if on the amoral side. For one, if a Demon Lord gives you his word, most of the time it's as good as a written contract - unless you're Maderas, but there's a reason why Maderas is held in complete and open contempt by other demon lords. In fact, most Overlords who act as tyrannically as YHVH does in SMT are either called out on it or attacked and promptly destroyed by other Overlords who think it's not cool at all to do that.
The only abuse they allow regardless of reason is towards Prinnies, in general, and given how Prinnies are the souls of criminals being punished, I'm not sure they don't deserve it...
It's all a matter of the strongest one calling the shots. And ironically, in SMT the strongest one always ends up being a HUMAN.
It does help that several powerful demons, including Lucifer, find humans amusing and actively try to keep them around because it'd be boring without them. And some demons get those massive obsessions with humans of their choosing - Belial and Nebiros going gaga over Alice comes to mind.
And of course there's also Strange Journey's Chaos ending, where Mem Aleph specifically says she will make sure humanity is cared for - provided they are willing to shed their mortal shells and abandon technology, returning to their original selves, since she's sick and tired of the human race polluting her (Mem Aleph is an incarnation of Mother Earth, and, well, can you blame her for being pissy at humans?).
About the only time in SMT where the Law path isn't a BAD END in disguise is in Devil Survivor, where at least God lets the main character (as the Messiah) and Remiel (who's the only angel who gives a shit about humans instead of viewing them as pests that need culling) call the shots over how to handle mankind. And even then it's only thanks to Remiel, who pestered him until he gave humans a second chance.
As for Disgaea... Disgaea demons PRETEND to be bad, but most of them are actually pretty cool guys, if on the amoral side. For one, if a Demon Lord gives you his word, most of the time it's as good as a written contract - unless you're Maderas, but there's a reason why Maderas is held in complete and open contempt by other demon lords. In fact, most Overlords who act as tyrannically as YHVH does in SMT are either called out on it or attacked and promptly destroyed by other Overlords who think it's not cool at all to do that.
The only abuse they allow regardless of reason is towards Prinnies, in general, and given how Prinnies are the souls of criminals being punished, I'm not sure they don't deserve it...
Comartemis said:
Your analysis depends on most humans being such immensely evil bastards that only society and fear of punishment holds us back from raping and killing each other all the time. Call me crazy, but I think your analysis is completely full of shit. Also, this scenario takes place in a Sailor Moon fic that conforms to the original flavor, which means the universe is tilted in the direction of the idealists, the pessimists are wrong by default, and Love Conquers All is practically one of the laws of physics.
And quite apart from questions of human capacity for good and evil, we're social creatures, even if the government up and vanished we'd still band together into communities for mutual protection, it wouldn't instantly devolve into every man for himself.
And quite apart from questions of human capacity for good and evil, we're social creatures, even if the government up and vanished we'd still band together into communities for mutual protection, it wouldn't instantly devolve into every man for himself.
Humanity has capacity for terrible evil, directly equal to it's capacity for good. If it tilts either way here, we're boned.
Even with Love Conquers All acting as a fundamental law of physics in this world, evil still won't go away. And even if you're going with a much lighter aim here, you have BRAINWASHING on a large scale happening. That's gonna throw your mood abit.
And I still have yet to hear a reason to root for your Sailor Squad. They're composed of people from both factions, but I haven't heard whether their goal is equally deserving of my disapproval. I hope you have a good Third Option planned.
But, before I go away, just to drag this point out. Humanity is a smart bunch. Since you're setting this in modern day, we're going to notice what's going on inside of three months, unless multiple governments coordinate on a deep and wide level to cover this up. At which point, it's a borderline open secret anyway.
This is the part where you shoot magical BS about memory erasure at me. Lot's of people passing out, camera phones, regular security cameras, mass loss of memory, and property damage aren't covered there. Somebody's gonna notice.
... Which, now that I think of it, could actually make a pretty epic fic. The investigation of the mysteries and urban legends surrounding Tokyo. Searching for truth, one only finds more questions. Does the Rabbit Hole ever end?
... Go look up 'Blood Diamonds' sometime.
Humanity has capacity for terrible evil, directly equal to it's capacity for good. If it tilts either way here, we're boned.
Even with Love Conquers All acting as a fundamental law of physics in this world, evil still won't go away. And even if you're going with a much lighter aim here, you have BRAINWASHING on a large scale happening. That's gonna throw your mood abit.
Humanity has capacity for terrible evil, directly equal to it's capacity for good. If it tilts either way here, we're boned.
Even with Love Conquers All acting as a fundamental law of physics in this world, evil still won't go away. And even if you're going with a much lighter aim here, you have BRAINWASHING on a large scale happening. That's gonna throw your mood abit.
The real problem isn't Beryl or the Senshi, it's the daimons invading from the next dimension over and who just want to destroy everything and rule over what's left when P90 shows up.
And I still have yet to hear a reason to root for your Sailor Squad. They're composed of people from both factions, but I haven't heard whether their goal is equally deserving of my disapproval. I hope you have a good Third Option planned.
But, before I go away, just to drag this point out. Humanity is a smart bunch. Since you're setting this in modern day, we're going to notice what's going on inside of three months, unless multiple governments coordinate on a deep and wide level to cover this up. At which point, it's a borderline open secret anyway.
Comartemis said:
Your analysis depends on most humans being such immensely evil bastards that only society and fear of punishment holds us back from raping and killing each other all the time. Call me crazy, but I think your analysis is completely full of shit. Also, this scenario takes place in a Sailor Moon fic that conforms to the original flavor, which means the universe is tilted in the direction of the idealists, the pessimists are wrong by default, and Love Conquers All is practically one of the laws of physics.
And quite apart from questions of human capacity for good and evil, we're social creatures, even if the government up and vanished we'd still band together into communities for mutual protection, it wouldn't instantly devolve into every man for himself.
And quite apart from questions of human capacity for good and evil, we're social creatures, even if the government up and vanished we'd still band together into communities for mutual protection, it wouldn't instantly devolve into every man for himself.
And even if it doesn't, well, anarchy isn't sustainable. Sooner or later, communities will become large enough and settled enough to start up civilization all over again. What then?
Inaba said:
Comartemis said:
Your analysis depends on most humans being such immensely evil bastards that only society and fear of punishment holds us back from raping and killing each other all the time. Call me crazy, but I think your analysis is completely full of shit. Also, this scenario takes place in a Sailor Moon fic that conforms to the original flavor, which means the universe is tilted in the direction of the idealists, the pessimists are wrong by default, and Love Conquers All is practically one of the laws of physics.
And quite apart from questions of human capacity for good and evil, we're social creatures, even if the government up and vanished we'd still band together into communities for mutual protection, it wouldn't instantly devolve into every man for himself.
And quite apart from questions of human capacity for good and evil, we're social creatures, even if the government up and vanished we'd still band together into communities for mutual protection, it wouldn't instantly devolve into every man for himself.
And even if it doesn't, well, anarchy isn't sustainable. Sooner or later, communities will become large enough and settled enough to start up civilization all over again. What then?
And the situation with the Blood Diamonds is such a minor evil compaired to much of what happens in such disrupted nations such as what would be created here that it's basicly noise. We care about it because it's the first world actively exploiting the shit and misery of these nations (the very same ones we toppled, then abandoned - basicly what Comartemis is discribing happening to EVERY NATION, only worse because there won't be even the petend inferstucture left behind, and all the trade routes will be cut). Really, just look at the major 'AIDS cure,' you know, rape a virgin, and think about the mindset behind it.
These places are hell.
lask said:
Eh, without warlords conquering everything they can grab, it will be a long time before populations start to conentrate enough for that to be a major issue. Remember, one of the big things modren inferstucture does is move resources from where they are needed to where they'll do the most good, and coordinate peoples effort to maximise production.á Not only will we not be able to produce a hundredth as much food as we can now, but no one will be shiping it anywhere. One person in a hundred living to join these small self-sufficient is optimistic to say the least.
Then you aren't trying to make Serenity and Beryl equal evils, you're making Serenity evil and having Beryl be a good guy... somehow. We're not sure how, exactly, but Beryl's FreedomSpartaAmerica will work!
Except, you know, bad things can and do happen in Sailor Moon, we just have heroes who step in and stop that. Really, you aren't making a good case here.
Except, you know, bad things can and do happen in Sailor Moon, we just have heroes who step in and stop that. Really, you aren't making a good case here.
An alternate proposal - both Serenity and Beryl wants the Earth, but differ on what they want to do with the Earth.
Serenity wants to create her vision of utopia and is perfectly willing to do what it takes to unite it underneath her. She's willing to negotiate terms, play diplomatic games lasting centuries and so on to accomplish her goals, but in the end, she wants the Earth united under her as one government.
Beryl on the other hand, could care less what conditions the people are living under. She wants Earth solidly beneath her, but is willing to let the existent nations rule themselves so long as they're willing to offer her tribute.
Balancing the two in this scenario can be done by changing what Serenity is willing to allow the people under her direct rule and what Beryl demands as tribute.
Serenity wants to create her vision of utopia and is perfectly willing to do what it takes to unite it underneath her. She's willing to negotiate terms, play diplomatic games lasting centuries and so on to accomplish her goals, but in the end, she wants the Earth united under her as one government.
Beryl on the other hand, could care less what conditions the people are living under. She wants Earth solidly beneath her, but is willing to let the existent nations rule themselves so long as they're willing to offer her tribute.
Balancing the two in this scenario can be done by changing what Serenity is willing to allow the people under her direct rule and what Beryl demands as tribute.
If you want an example of how order and law can lead to great evil, just look at modern medicine.
Fun fact: a lot of modern medicine's breakthroughs were made... in Nazi camps. By horribly experimenting on Jewish prisoners. That's the kind of shit a dictatorship can lead to - once you stop thinking of one side as 'people', things fall apart real fast.
Hell, vivisection and experimenting meds on animals are also incredibly cruel and coldhearted practices. I don't care if it saves human lives, all life should be sacred. Viewing some life as more sacred than some other is just the beginning of the slippery slope.
Fun fact: a lot of modern medicine's breakthroughs were made... in Nazi camps. By horribly experimenting on Jewish prisoners. That's the kind of shit a dictatorship can lead to - once you stop thinking of one side as 'people', things fall apart real fast.
Hell, vivisection and experimenting meds on animals are also incredibly cruel and coldhearted practices. I don't care if it saves human lives, all life should be sacred. Viewing some life as more sacred than some other is just the beginning of the slippery slope.
lask said:
Then you aren't trying to make Serenity and Beryl equal evils, you're making Serenity evil and having Beryl be a good guy... somehow. We're not sure how, exactly, but Beryl's FreedomSpartaAmerica will work!
Except, you know, bad things can and do happen in Sailor Moon, we just have heroes who step in and stop that. Really, you aren't making a good case here.
Except, you know, bad things can and do happen in Sailor Moon, we just have heroes who step in and stop that. Really, you aren't making a good case here.
Serenity isn't just some brainwashing nutcase on a power trip, she honestly believes that what she's doing is for the benefit of mankind. The problem is that she's been alive so long that she's basically forgotten what it's like to be human. She needs to be reminded that the human condition is composed of both good and bad, and eliminating suffering in the name of utopia kills part of what makes us human. If Usagi reminds her of this, she's going to wind up having a "My God What Have I Done" moment. She is a good person who is misguided and making bad decisions because of it.
Beryl, likewise, wants to spread chaos by enforcing the spread of chaos, and doesn't understand that some humans like law and order and don't want the breakdown of modern values (and various other moral stuff that I don't believe in but which others do) that would come with absolute freedom. By enforcing the spread of chaos, she is undermining her own values of the freedom of choice by removing our ability to choose law over chaos. Beryl won't have the same breakdown over this that Serenity would over her choice, but if she is confronted and made to see the hypocrisy of her actions she'll back down and call off her troops. Beryl is not necessarily a good person, but she's a reasonable one, which is more than a lot of humans can say.
These two forces clash with each other over conflicts in values and misunderstandings and humans wind up getting caught in the crossfire. Usagi and the crew are among those caught in the middle, and their presence confuses matters worse than ever particularly because the Senshi and the Generals recognize people who were their allies in a past life fighting alongside demons and/or Senshi who were their enemies in the past.
The true villains of the series are the daimons led by Mistress Nine and Germatoid, who are manipulating the conflict from the shadows to drive both sides further against each other in order to ensure that nobody is left to stop them when they make their bid for the talismans. The daimons are exempt from the "no villains" clause because in comparison to the demons and the Senshi (who are both local powers from this universe) they're Lovecraftian Abominations From Dimension X, and their goals involve wiping out all life on Earth, human and demon alike.
Shaderic said:
Comartemis said:
Your analysis depends on most humans being such immensely evil bastards that only society and fear of punishment holds us back from raping and killing each other all the time. Call me crazy, but I think your analysis is completely full of shit. Also, this scenario takes place in a Sailor Moon fic that conforms to the original flavor, which means the universe is tilted in the direction of the idealists, the pessimists are wrong by default, and Love Conquers All is practically one of the laws of physics.
And quite apart from questions of human capacity for good and evil, we're social creatures, even if the government up and vanished we'd still band together into communities for mutual protection, it wouldn't instantly devolve into every man for himself.
And quite apart from questions of human capacity for good and evil, we're social creatures, even if the government up and vanished we'd still band together into communities for mutual protection, it wouldn't instantly devolve into every man for himself.
Humanity has capacity for terrible evil, directly equal to it's capacity for good. If it tilts either way here, we're boned.
Even with Love Conquers All acting as a fundamental law of physics in this world, evil still won't go away. And even if you're going with a much lighter aim here, you have BRAINWASHING on a large scale happening. That's gonna throw your mood abit.
And I still have yet to hear a reason to root for your Sailor Squad. They're composed of people from both factions, but I haven't heard whether their goal is equally deserving of my disapproval. I hope you have a good Third Option planned.
But, before I go away, just to drag this point out. Humanity is a smart bunch. Since you're setting this in modern day, we're going to notice what's going on inside of three months, unless multiple governments coordinate on a deep and wide level to cover this up. At which point, it's a borderline open secret anyway.
This is the part where you shoot magical BS about memory erasure at me. Lot's of people passing out, camera phones, regular security cameras, mass loss of memory, and property damage aren't covered there. Somebody's gonna notice.
... Which, now that I think of it, could actually make a pretty epic fic. The investigation of the mysteries and urban legends surrounding Tokyo. Searching for truth, one only finds more questions. Does the Rabbit Hole ever end?