Building a New D&D Setting
- Thread starter Lord Raine
- Start date
I don't think this is a necro, so here we go.
You've introduced the 'good' and 'evil' sides in this world but my question is thus. Is there grey and if there is where is it. I personally like the idea of grey and grey morality where the heroes end up causing pain and suffering upon innocent people in their quest to destroy the antagonists, even if they don't mean to. I like reading and writing about the moral conflicts of characters.
You've introduced the 'good' and 'evil' sides in this world but my question is thus. Is there grey and if there is where is it. I personally like the idea of grey and grey morality where the heroes end up causing pain and suffering upon innocent people in their quest to destroy the antagonists, even if they don't mean to. I like reading and writing about the moral conflicts of characters.
To be perfectly honest, I didn't care for it. I want to stress though that this is my personal take on the idea, rather than an indictment of the idea as a whole.
Those who know me know that I prefer fairly bleak settings and story lines - such darkness makes heroes shine all the brighter. The fiction you wrote, however, basically inverts the entire concept of intrinsic evil (which D&D has, as the game has always contained alignment - albeit in various forms - as an objective measurement of ethical/moral issues), to its detriment.
In my perspective, creatures formed from the Outer Planes (that is, those Outsiders with an alignment subtype) exemplify the alignment traits of their native realm - no fiend is ever "born" against the alignment of its type. Fiends are evil (of a particular brand, depending on their plane) incarnate - now, some Outsiders can learn to go against their type, but notwithstanding truly apocalyptic events (such as one-third of angels embracing evil), such cases are vanishingly rare.
What you have here is essentially a fiend being "born" not only good, but as a matchless paragon for it. So the realms of pure evil would somehow create, as their most powerful being, a creature that was inherently opposed to them. It just doesn't make sense to me.
That's leaving aside the fact that I don't particularly care for stories where a sacrifice is rewarded by having that which was sacrificed then returned (and, is so often frustratingly the case, returned and then some). That defeats the whole purpose of making the sacrifice in the first place - yes, the person had to make the initial sacrifice and didn't know that they'd be rewarded for doing so, but it still undercuts the purpose of giving something up to begin with, from a narrative standpoint (not to mention in the eyes of other characters who saw that, and so would likely begin to think that they could similarly sacrifice without any actual loss).
My rule is that heroes should be punished for their heroism; these are the people who give up what they want for the good of others, so their only reward should be the sense of satisfaction that they gain from being heroes. Having a heroic sacrifice be rewarded with some sort of pay-off undercuts selflessness that such actions display, at least to me.
So yeah, it wasn't my cup of tea.
Those who know me know that I prefer fairly bleak settings and story lines - such darkness makes heroes shine all the brighter. The fiction you wrote, however, basically inverts the entire concept of intrinsic evil (which D&D has, as the game has always contained alignment - albeit in various forms - as an objective measurement of ethical/moral issues), to its detriment.
In my perspective, creatures formed from the Outer Planes (that is, those Outsiders with an alignment subtype) exemplify the alignment traits of their native realm - no fiend is ever "born" against the alignment of its type. Fiends are evil (of a particular brand, depending on their plane) incarnate - now, some Outsiders can learn to go against their type, but notwithstanding truly apocalyptic events (such as one-third of angels embracing evil), such cases are vanishingly rare.
What you have here is essentially a fiend being "born" not only good, but as a matchless paragon for it. So the realms of pure evil would somehow create, as their most powerful being, a creature that was inherently opposed to them. It just doesn't make sense to me.
That's leaving aside the fact that I don't particularly care for stories where a sacrifice is rewarded by having that which was sacrificed then returned (and, is so often frustratingly the case, returned and then some). That defeats the whole purpose of making the sacrifice in the first place - yes, the person had to make the initial sacrifice and didn't know that they'd be rewarded for doing so, but it still undercuts the purpose of giving something up to begin with, from a narrative standpoint (not to mention in the eyes of other characters who saw that, and so would likely begin to think that they could similarly sacrifice without any actual loss).
My rule is that heroes should be punished for their heroism; these are the people who give up what they want for the good of others, so their only reward should be the sense of satisfaction that they gain from being heroes. Having a heroic sacrifice be rewarded with some sort of pay-off undercuts selflessness that such actions display, at least to me.
So yeah, it wasn't my cup of tea.
It's not fiction. The individual is, but not the circumstances. It is explicitly noted in Tyrants of the Nine Hells that devils who possess non-Lawful Evil alignments do happen, once in a blue moon. It's also noted that they are destroyed ruthlessly by the militaristic systems that exist in Hell.
All my scenario presumes is a blue moon within a blue moon, i.e. a rouge Devil that also happened to have been born/created with enough power (maximum hit dice, a Paragon of his kind, or however you want to roll it up) to evade the system and escape.
I understand that that is your opinion, and I certainly respect that, but it rather offends me that you say I have affected the very alignment system and concept of intrinsic evil in a detrimental way by changing something when I am, in fact, quoting from the books themselves. The only assumption this scenario makes is the same kind of assumption that gets frequently made in the game for the PCs themselves. Namely, that an insane coincidence within an insane coincidence has occurred.
Would you like me to quote the passages in Tyrants to you that refute that? Not only is it clearly noted that they can in fact be 'born' against type, but it also clearly outlines how Angels can fall (and how, on extreme rare occasion, Devils can rise).
Did you forget that Devils are all fallen Angels? The very existence of Devils proves that Outsiders can be born or choose against type.
I'll make a note to never play Dungeons & Dragons when you're the DM, then. PCs should be rewarded for being willing to give up things for the sake of role-playing. Otherwise, you're just encouraging everyone at the table to be as Neutral as possible, because going out of their way to attack evil or help good isn't going to be rewarded beyond whatever personal satisfaction they get from it.
Even the mechanics of the game itself point against doing this. The entire concept of Voluntary Poverty is that you give up everything except the clothes on your back because that's what your character believes in, and in exchange, you get enough innate scaling bonuses that you make up for it and then some (especially if you're a Monk, and already designed to fight without a weapon anyway).
Hell, there are Feats, both in Exalted and elsewhere, that exist only to reward those PCs heroic enough to earn them. And Prestige Classes. There are Prestige Classes that literally cannot be accessed unless you do things ranging from taking more restrictive moral and personal oaths, to literally sacrificing your life for a greater cause (Living Martyr, which draws it's inspiration from Gandalf the White and Jesus post-resurrection).
Only if the PC roleplays their character as having made the sacrifice only for the selfish reason of expecting a payoff. It's unreasonable to demand that a player not be allowed to take a heroic or noble prestige class that requires genuine sacrifice because that's what they were planning on doing all along (i.e. I want to play a Living Martyr, so at some point, I'm going to sacrifice my life for us to escape or succeed), but letting that bleed over into the character itself is a bad, bad idea.
If you actually put your style into effect and enforced it, then no PC would have any reason to be anything other than Neutral or Evil, because when they play Good, they end up getting screwed out of the equivalent things they could have gotten if they had been uncaring or a selfish bastard.
Dungeons & Dragons is a game about earning rewards through adventure. Denying those rewards on the basis that good should be it's own reward is asinine in the extreme. This isn't good we're talking about, here. It's Good?. An energy, a force of the cosmos itself. Oppose it, and it will destroy you. Serve it, and it will reward you. That's kind of the entire point. If Good was it's own reward in D&D, then Evil would have won a long, long time ago.
And maybe you like that idea. Maybe you want to play in a world where Evil won eons ago, Heaven is a blasted ruin, and good is as fleeting and pointless in this hope-devoid world as defying our Fiendish masters.
But that's not this universe. This universe is about the dawning of the greatest age of exploration and adventure in history. A civilization of magic and a civilization of technology meet on their first tentative steps out beyond the confines of their own planets, and together they step boldly forth into the stars themselves. This is taking the traditional backdrop to Dungeons & Dragons and stepping forward. This is a world of gunpowder and airships, sword and sorcery. It's the dawn of the Age of Exploration, where anyone with a little bit of luck and skill can join a guild or form a private company and go forth to explore the universe, with all of it's planets and magics and wonders. This is a universe were dragons fly through space on cosmic winds, and enchanted ships fly across the gulfs between worlds to find new planets to explore. The ruins of dozens of intergalactic civilizations of magic and high technology are scattered across untold worlds, their wealth and secrets free for the taking.
Perhaps you are a cartographer, charting the interstellar byways. Perhaps you are a warrior, lending your strength and skill to the cause. Maybe you are a cleric or paladin, protecting your friends and carrying the light of your faith into the far corners of the stars. But, at the end of the day, you are all explorers. Freelancers or guildworkers, selfish or noble, for a higher cause, for your king or state, for the pursuit of knowledge, or even just for the enriching of your pocketbook, you are an adventurer.
There are entire worlds out there that no one has ever seen before, that no man or elf or dwarf has ever set foot upon. Riches beyond the wildest imagining, and archeological finds that will revolutionize the way magic and technology are seen and worked. There are fortunes to be made, and glory to be had. The mysteries of the very underpinnings of the universe are out there to be had.
Are you and your comrades up to the task?
This is High Magic and Victorian Steampunk, Sword & Sorcerery & Gun. This is not Ravenloft or World of Darkness. This isn't about despair or destruction or fighting against impossible odds. It's about being the champions of the age of discovery, about going where no one has ever gone before, and finding things that had once been lost and forgotten.
All my scenario presumes is a blue moon within a blue moon, i.e. a rouge Devil that also happened to have been born/created with enough power (maximum hit dice, a Paragon of his kind, or however you want to roll it up) to evade the system and escape.
I understand that that is your opinion, and I certainly respect that, but it rather offends me that you say I have affected the very alignment system and concept of intrinsic evil in a detrimental way by changing something when I am, in fact, quoting from the books themselves. The only assumption this scenario makes is the same kind of assumption that gets frequently made in the game for the PCs themselves. Namely, that an insane coincidence within an insane coincidence has occurred.
Would you like me to quote the passages in Tyrants to you that refute that? Not only is it clearly noted that they can in fact be 'born' against type, but it also clearly outlines how Angels can fall (and how, on extreme rare occasion, Devils can rise).
Did you forget that Devils are all fallen Angels? The very existence of Devils proves that Outsiders can be born or choose against type.
I'll make a note to never play Dungeons & Dragons when you're the DM, then. PCs should be rewarded for being willing to give up things for the sake of role-playing. Otherwise, you're just encouraging everyone at the table to be as Neutral as possible, because going out of their way to attack evil or help good isn't going to be rewarded beyond whatever personal satisfaction they get from it.
Even the mechanics of the game itself point against doing this. The entire concept of Voluntary Poverty is that you give up everything except the clothes on your back because that's what your character believes in, and in exchange, you get enough innate scaling bonuses that you make up for it and then some (especially if you're a Monk, and already designed to fight without a weapon anyway).
Hell, there are Feats, both in Exalted and elsewhere, that exist only to reward those PCs heroic enough to earn them. And Prestige Classes. There are Prestige Classes that literally cannot be accessed unless you do things ranging from taking more restrictive moral and personal oaths, to literally sacrificing your life for a greater cause (Living Martyr, which draws it's inspiration from Gandalf the White and Jesus post-resurrection).
Only if the PC roleplays their character as having made the sacrifice only for the selfish reason of expecting a payoff. It's unreasonable to demand that a player not be allowed to take a heroic or noble prestige class that requires genuine sacrifice because that's what they were planning on doing all along (i.e. I want to play a Living Martyr, so at some point, I'm going to sacrifice my life for us to escape or succeed), but letting that bleed over into the character itself is a bad, bad idea.
If you actually put your style into effect and enforced it, then no PC would have any reason to be anything other than Neutral or Evil, because when they play Good, they end up getting screwed out of the equivalent things they could have gotten if they had been uncaring or a selfish bastard.
Dungeons & Dragons is a game about earning rewards through adventure. Denying those rewards on the basis that good should be it's own reward is asinine in the extreme. This isn't good we're talking about, here. It's Good?. An energy, a force of the cosmos itself. Oppose it, and it will destroy you. Serve it, and it will reward you. That's kind of the entire point. If Good was it's own reward in D&D, then Evil would have won a long, long time ago.
And maybe you like that idea. Maybe you want to play in a world where Evil won eons ago, Heaven is a blasted ruin, and good is as fleeting and pointless in this hope-devoid world as defying our Fiendish masters.
But that's not this universe. This universe is about the dawning of the greatest age of exploration and adventure in history. A civilization of magic and a civilization of technology meet on their first tentative steps out beyond the confines of their own planets, and together they step boldly forth into the stars themselves. This is taking the traditional backdrop to Dungeons & Dragons and stepping forward. This is a world of gunpowder and airships, sword and sorcery. It's the dawn of the Age of Exploration, where anyone with a little bit of luck and skill can join a guild or form a private company and go forth to explore the universe, with all of it's planets and magics and wonders. This is a universe were dragons fly through space on cosmic winds, and enchanted ships fly across the gulfs between worlds to find new planets to explore. The ruins of dozens of intergalactic civilizations of magic and high technology are scattered across untold worlds, their wealth and secrets free for the taking.
Perhaps you are a cartographer, charting the interstellar byways. Perhaps you are a warrior, lending your strength and skill to the cause. Maybe you are a cleric or paladin, protecting your friends and carrying the light of your faith into the far corners of the stars. But, at the end of the day, you are all explorers. Freelancers or guildworkers, selfish or noble, for a higher cause, for your king or state, for the pursuit of knowledge, or even just for the enriching of your pocketbook, you are an adventurer.
There are entire worlds out there that no one has ever seen before, that no man or elf or dwarf has ever set foot upon. Riches beyond the wildest imagining, and archeological finds that will revolutionize the way magic and technology are seen and worked. There are fortunes to be made, and glory to be had. The mysteries of the very underpinnings of the universe are out there to be had.
Are you and your comrades up to the task?
This is High Magic and Victorian Steampunk, Sword & Sorcerery & Gun. This is not Ravenloft or World of Darkness. This isn't about despair or destruction or fighting against impossible odds. It's about being the champions of the age of discovery, about going where no one has ever gone before, and finding things that had once been lost and forgotten.
First, I want to emphasize that when I said "fiction" I wasn't making any sort of snide remark. You wrote an original story about characters that aren't real - that is, by definition, fiction. That's all I meant. It wasn't intended to be any sort of put-down.
Secondly, I understand that you're referencing Fiendish Codex II because it's the 3.5 supplement on devils, and the latest supplement at that (in 3.5), and therefore the "canon" one.
The thing is...I honestly don't like FC2, simply because it flies in the face of what are, in my opinion, much better products on this topic from earlier editions of the game. The idea laid down in FC2 that Asmodeus and all devils were once servants of the gods is...rather petty. Certainly it seems that way compared to the history laid down in 2E's Guide to Hell, wherein he's one of two primal entities that predate all the gods and helped give shape to the Outer Planes before falling into Hell, and setting up multiple deceptions to mask his ultimate goal of arising and re-shaping the entire structure of the planes.
FC2 is, in terms of what it presents, rather unimaginative compared to a lot of the planar material from earlier editions of the game, and, as such, I don't give it much regard at all.
I said it was just my opinion.
I'm not saying it's not possible, just that it seems to go against what I view as the structure of the alignment-based nature of the Outer Planes.
I actually would like you to quote the passages from FC2, and, if you please, cite a page number. I say that not because I don't believe you (I do), but simply because I'd like to double-check one of 3.5's larger breaks with past continuity.
Likewise, I'm not sure why you mention that fiends can choose to go against type, since I explicitly referenced the mass-falling of angels in my previous post. I know that fiends can eventually become other alignments - I just break with the idea that an evil Outsider can be born in an evil plane with a Good alignment.
It's replies like this one that undercut the nature of the rational conversation you say to want to have. Stop taking things personally.
I feel like I need to offer a point of clarification here. My previous talking about what heroes need to face as a response to their heroism is from a strictly narrative point - it's how I'd write a story, and the stories I'd prefer to read. It's not necessarily how I'd run a game.
The reason I was talking about the narrative structure I care for is because I was treating your writing as a self-contained piece of writing; not a game scenario. Simply put, you're making a game-based response to my writing-based opinion. (Forgive me if I don't respond to most of the rest of your post, but I think that answers the vast majority of what you wrote.)
I do admit that sounds like a very attractive game world to play in. It's like the world of the Midnight campaign setting (from Fantasy Flight Games). It's also similar to (though subtly different from) Geoffrey McKinney's Carcosa.
Secondly, I understand that you're referencing Fiendish Codex II because it's the 3.5 supplement on devils, and the latest supplement at that (in 3.5), and therefore the "canon" one.
The thing is...I honestly don't like FC2, simply because it flies in the face of what are, in my opinion, much better products on this topic from earlier editions of the game. The idea laid down in FC2 that Asmodeus and all devils were once servants of the gods is...rather petty. Certainly it seems that way compared to the history laid down in 2E's Guide to Hell, wherein he's one of two primal entities that predate all the gods and helped give shape to the Outer Planes before falling into Hell, and setting up multiple deceptions to mask his ultimate goal of arising and re-shaping the entire structure of the planes.
FC2 is, in terms of what it presents, rather unimaginative compared to a lot of the planar material from earlier editions of the game, and, as such, I don't give it much regard at all.
I said it was just my opinion.
I'm not saying it's not possible, just that it seems to go against what I view as the structure of the alignment-based nature of the Outer Planes.
I actually would like you to quote the passages from FC2, and, if you please, cite a page number. I say that not because I don't believe you (I do), but simply because I'd like to double-check one of 3.5's larger breaks with past continuity.
Likewise, I'm not sure why you mention that fiends can choose to go against type, since I explicitly referenced the mass-falling of angels in my previous post. I know that fiends can eventually become other alignments - I just break with the idea that an evil Outsider can be born in an evil plane with a Good alignment.
It's replies like this one that undercut the nature of the rational conversation you say to want to have. Stop taking things personally.
I feel like I need to offer a point of clarification here. My previous talking about what heroes need to face as a response to their heroism is from a strictly narrative point - it's how I'd write a story, and the stories I'd prefer to read. It's not necessarily how I'd run a game.
The reason I was talking about the narrative structure I care for is because I was treating your writing as a self-contained piece of writing; not a game scenario. Simply put, you're making a game-based response to my writing-based opinion. (Forgive me if I don't respond to most of the rest of your post, but I think that answers the vast majority of what you wrote.)
I do admit that sounds like a very attractive game world to play in. It's like the world of the Midnight campaign setting (from Fantasy Flight Games). It's also similar to (though subtly different from) Geoffrey McKinney's Carcosa.
Since some of you seem to be a lot less interested in fluff, and a lot more interested in numbers, here's an idea that deals more with game mechanics itself.
I'm creating a new class. The focus of this class is: generalist style combination of magic and martial abilities. The hook for the class are the magical weapons that the class specializes in creating. These weapons are a manifestation of magic that takes the form of a weapon made of glowing light and color. These weapons can be created and dismissed at-will, can take the form of any weapon the character is proficient in, and have various special abilities associated with them that become available as the class progresses. The general idea is that the character is learning 'runes' that they can then suspend inside a created weapon, which can change the properties of the weapon itself.
If you need a visual reference for this, I'm basically combining Bound Weapons from the Elder Scrolls with Necrid's void fragment weapon from Soul Calibur 2.
My problems with this are severalfold.
I'm not sure whether I should make this a Prestige Class or a regular class. If it's a Prestige Class, it opens the way for some more powerful and focus abilities, which is nice. But if it's a regular class, then that leaves more room for versatility, which is important seeing how this is meant to be a generalist class.
I've never actually created a class from scratch before, so all I'm really working off of for the moment is the concept that it can't be weaker than or a more bland alternative to something that already exists, because otherwise nobody will want to play it. But it also can't be too powerful, or else it becomes an unbalancing force in the game.
So, to put it down in raw terms:
If a Prestige Class, then it's focused on allowing arcane classes to dabble in martial skills while still remaining powerful at what they do, as well as doing the same for fighters, barbarians, and rouges, who want to play with a little magic but still be good at what they do. So as a Prestige Class, it should allow characters to come in from both sides of the spectrum and reap benefits while still allowing them to progress in their own core class (this would likely constitute every other level being a +1 level to existing class, resulting in a 10th level prestige class that has five 'empty' levels and five levels where you reap the benefits of the Prestige Class itself proper).
The possible abilities and/or powers associated with this that I've thought of o far are:
~ The weapon can be created and dismissed an infinite number of times per day as a standard/swift/free action, i.e. no standard limits on creation. You can make them all day if you want to. However, the catch is that, if it ever leaves your hand, it immediately vanishes. This prevents players from abusing the power and making a hundred energy swords out of nowhere because why not. This also means being disarmed causes your weapon to vanish, forcing you to make a new one. You need at least one free hand to make an energy weapon, so you can't do it if your hands are tied.
~ You can only have one created energy weapon at a time. A possible ability that can be chosen later might allow the creation of two weapons at once, to allow dual-wielding builds.
~ The weapon can be infused with certain traits that can be chosen from a list of possible traits. These choices might either be permanent (like the Paladin's Mercies in Pathfinder), or they might be something that can be changed out and arranged, likely with a daily limit to prevent abuse (i.e. select ahead of time for that day what abilities your weapon will have, like a wizard chooses spells).
Some possible examples of traits might include
Split: You can make two copies of the weapon to dual-wield.
Bright: Your weapon sheds like like a torch.
Dim: Your weapon is dim and especially ethereal, and is thus more easily used in stealth.
~ The class gains a large number of weapon-focused bonus feats as part of the class, but with the catch that said bonus feats only function for a created energy weapon. I.e. your character can use Cleave with their created weapon, but not with a normal sword.
~ The weapons are vulnerable to Antimagic, and either cannot exist at all inside such fields, or can, but lack any of their traits, associated bonus feats, and other such benefits.
~ The weapons scale and become more powerful and with greater + enhancements as the levels increase. This allows the class to remain relevant and compete with other classes that can pick up newer and more powerful weapons every adventure. This may be tweaked down slightly to balance out against the bonus feats, i.e. the weapons don't ever quite match the power curve compared to everything else, but make up for it with those extra feats.
~ Upon taking the class, the character chooses one of four stats: Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, or Charisma. That stat is the stat used to determine damage dealt with the weapon. This allows it to be a tool that can help a fighter or a wizard equally by deriving it's strength from their main stat of choice.
~ Like a wizard's prepared spells, the weapon can be prepared ahead of time so that it will have X properties for that day (i.e. Vorpal, Shocking Burst, Flaming, ect). These properties can be selected from the full list of properties, or possibly from a limited pool of properties defined by the class. Either way, the properties you can put on it are limited by the enhancement of the weapon itself, just like if you were making a magic sword from scratch using crafting. A character with a +2 created weapon can't make it a Vorpal weapon, because they can't 'afford' the Vorpal effect with just a +2.
Basically, the general idea boiled massively down is a class that can create an amorphous magic weapon with special properties. Depending on whether it's a Prestige Class or a regular class, some of the ideas I noted above become more or less valid. If it's a Prestige Class, then it is something that wizards and fighters can come at from either side and draw benefits from. If it's a normal class, then it needs a stronger ability to stand on it's own, because you are in essence giving up any weapons you find in your adventures in exchange for being proficient with a shapeshifting weapon that grows more powerful as you do, and the class abilities need to reflect that.
If anyone has any ideas or advice on which way to take the concept, I would be very appreciative.
I'm creating a new class. The focus of this class is: generalist style combination of magic and martial abilities. The hook for the class are the magical weapons that the class specializes in creating. These weapons are a manifestation of magic that takes the form of a weapon made of glowing light and color. These weapons can be created and dismissed at-will, can take the form of any weapon the character is proficient in, and have various special abilities associated with them that become available as the class progresses. The general idea is that the character is learning 'runes' that they can then suspend inside a created weapon, which can change the properties of the weapon itself.
If you need a visual reference for this, I'm basically combining Bound Weapons from the Elder Scrolls with Necrid's void fragment weapon from Soul Calibur 2.
My problems with this are severalfold.
I'm not sure whether I should make this a Prestige Class or a regular class. If it's a Prestige Class, it opens the way for some more powerful and focus abilities, which is nice. But if it's a regular class, then that leaves more room for versatility, which is important seeing how this is meant to be a generalist class.
I've never actually created a class from scratch before, so all I'm really working off of for the moment is the concept that it can't be weaker than or a more bland alternative to something that already exists, because otherwise nobody will want to play it. But it also can't be too powerful, or else it becomes an unbalancing force in the game.
So, to put it down in raw terms:
If a Prestige Class, then it's focused on allowing arcane classes to dabble in martial skills while still remaining powerful at what they do, as well as doing the same for fighters, barbarians, and rouges, who want to play with a little magic but still be good at what they do. So as a Prestige Class, it should allow characters to come in from both sides of the spectrum and reap benefits while still allowing them to progress in their own core class (this would likely constitute every other level being a +1 level to existing class, resulting in a 10th level prestige class that has five 'empty' levels and five levels where you reap the benefits of the Prestige Class itself proper).
The possible abilities and/or powers associated with this that I've thought of o far are:
~ The weapon can be created and dismissed an infinite number of times per day as a standard/swift/free action, i.e. no standard limits on creation. You can make them all day if you want to. However, the catch is that, if it ever leaves your hand, it immediately vanishes. This prevents players from abusing the power and making a hundred energy swords out of nowhere because why not. This also means being disarmed causes your weapon to vanish, forcing you to make a new one. You need at least one free hand to make an energy weapon, so you can't do it if your hands are tied.
~ You can only have one created energy weapon at a time. A possible ability that can be chosen later might allow the creation of two weapons at once, to allow dual-wielding builds.
~ The weapon can be infused with certain traits that can be chosen from a list of possible traits. These choices might either be permanent (like the Paladin's Mercies in Pathfinder), or they might be something that can be changed out and arranged, likely with a daily limit to prevent abuse (i.e. select ahead of time for that day what abilities your weapon will have, like a wizard chooses spells).
Some possible examples of traits might include
Split: You can make two copies of the weapon to dual-wield.
Bright: Your weapon sheds like like a torch.
Dim: Your weapon is dim and especially ethereal, and is thus more easily used in stealth.
~ The class gains a large number of weapon-focused bonus feats as part of the class, but with the catch that said bonus feats only function for a created energy weapon. I.e. your character can use Cleave with their created weapon, but not with a normal sword.
~ The weapons are vulnerable to Antimagic, and either cannot exist at all inside such fields, or can, but lack any of their traits, associated bonus feats, and other such benefits.
~ The weapons scale and become more powerful and with greater + enhancements as the levels increase. This allows the class to remain relevant and compete with other classes that can pick up newer and more powerful weapons every adventure. This may be tweaked down slightly to balance out against the bonus feats, i.e. the weapons don't ever quite match the power curve compared to everything else, but make up for it with those extra feats.
~ Upon taking the class, the character chooses one of four stats: Strength, Dexterity, Intelligence, or Charisma. That stat is the stat used to determine damage dealt with the weapon. This allows it to be a tool that can help a fighter or a wizard equally by deriving it's strength from their main stat of choice.
~ Like a wizard's prepared spells, the weapon can be prepared ahead of time so that it will have X properties for that day (i.e. Vorpal, Shocking Burst, Flaming, ect). These properties can be selected from the full list of properties, or possibly from a limited pool of properties defined by the class. Either way, the properties you can put on it are limited by the enhancement of the weapon itself, just like if you were making a magic sword from scratch using crafting. A character with a +2 created weapon can't make it a Vorpal weapon, because they can't 'afford' the Vorpal effect with just a +2.
Basically, the general idea boiled massively down is a class that can create an amorphous magic weapon with special properties. Depending on whether it's a Prestige Class or a regular class, some of the ideas I noted above become more or less valid. If it's a Prestige Class, then it is something that wizards and fighters can come at from either side and draw benefits from. If it's a normal class, then it needs a stronger ability to stand on it's own, because you are in essence giving up any weapons you find in your adventures in exchange for being proficient with a shapeshifting weapon that grows more powerful as you do, and the class abilities need to reflect that.
If anyone has any ideas or advice on which way to take the concept, I would be very appreciative.
That's very true, but I was trying to make a unique class that would make my setting stand out.
Damn. Back to the drawing board.
Ah, actually, wait. Part of the setting is steampunk, and magic exists to. Alzrius, is there any class in 3.5 or Pathfinder that replicates the properties and effects of being a Madboy from Girl Genius? Or, perhaps more in tune with TRPGs, is there a class that replicates Geniuses from Genius: The Transgression? Because I'm thinking it would be interesting to have a skill-based magic class that can grab random things from around them and improvise weapons and traps on the fly. Like McGuyver, if he was a wizard and a mad scientist.
Also, can anyone refer me to any 3.5 or Pathfinder rulebooks that contain comprehensive rules for firearms? Because they do exist in this setting, and I've been looking for something to base stuff off of.
Damn. Back to the drawing board.
Ah, actually, wait. Part of the setting is steampunk, and magic exists to. Alzrius, is there any class in 3.5 or Pathfinder that replicates the properties and effects of being a Madboy from Girl Genius? Or, perhaps more in tune with TRPGs, is there a class that replicates Geniuses from Genius: The Transgression? Because I'm thinking it would be interesting to have a skill-based magic class that can grab random things from around them and improvise weapons and traps on the fly. Like McGuyver, if he was a wizard and a mad scientist.
Also, can anyone refer me to any 3.5 or Pathfinder rulebooks that contain comprehensive rules for firearms? Because they do exist in this setting, and I've been looking for something to base stuff off of.
I've never read Girl Genius (when I read Phil Foglio's work, I either stick to Phil & Dixie or go straight for <a href='http://d20npcs.wikia.com/wiki/Sooja,_Human_Wizard_12' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>XXXenophile</a>), so I'm not sure what either of those entail.
There are plenty of sourcebooks and supplements (albeit mostly for 3.5 so far) that deal with steampunk, and more than one that use a skill-based magic system, but again, I'm not sure of exactly what you're looking for, so I'm hesitant to suggest anything.
Again, there are plenty of books that give stats for firearms. In this case, though, I can point you to Pathfinder's <a href='http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>official firearms rules</a>.
There are plenty of sourcebooks and supplements (albeit mostly for 3.5 so far) that deal with steampunk, and more than one that use a skill-based magic system, but again, I'm not sure of exactly what you're looking for, so I'm hesitant to suggest anything.
Again, there are plenty of books that give stats for firearms. In this case, though, I can point you to Pathfinder's <a href='http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/firearms' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>official firearms rules</a>.
The information I linked to in my previous post is from Paizo's book <a href='http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/v5748btpy8mcz' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Ultimate Combat</a>.
Having said that, I'm not sure what you mean by "a comprehensive collection" of firearm rules. There are so many different 3.5/Pathfinder/d20 Modern books out there with firearm rules (often covering the same ground), that nothing's truly "comprehensive" simply because of how much material has been made.
The rules from Ultimate Combat that I linked to before are probably going to be sufficient if you're looking to add guns to a fantasy-medieval (e.g. a typical Pathfinder) game. Note that other sections of the book (which are also legally online) deal with things like cannons, feats that modify how well you can use guns, and the gunslinger base class.
Having said that, I'm not sure what you mean by "a comprehensive collection" of firearm rules. There are so many different 3.5/Pathfinder/d20 Modern books out there with firearm rules (often covering the same ground), that nothing's truly "comprehensive" simply because of how much material has been made.
The rules from Ultimate Combat that I linked to before are probably going to be sufficient if you're looking to add guns to a fantasy-medieval (e.g. a typical Pathfinder) game. Note that other sections of the book (which are also legally online) deal with things like cannons, feats that modify how well you can use guns, and the gunslinger base class.
To be fair, GtH isn't the only source about the Lords of the Nine. Dragon #96 contained information about the Lords, and Asmodeus was relegated to the mysterious Dark Lord of Nessus, ruler of Baator and an archfiend so eldritch that the scholar who dared delve into the lore of Baator was imploded in broad daylight.
There's also another mark against FC2's origin story: It mentions St Cuthbert as a god before Asmodeus fell, which conflicts with the fact that Cuthbert is an ascended mortal, thus making the Lords of the Nine a comparitively young organization. The other origin story makes more sense: that the baatezu were the larvae infected by the taint of law from the Heart of Darkness. FC2 makes no mention of the Ancient Baatorians or the baatezu connection with the yugoloths, and having Asmodeus and crew as fallen angels makes even less sense in light of Mephistopheles and Dispater's reasons for despising Belial and Baalzebul; namely that the latter two are fallen celestials and not true baatezu.
EDIT: Does FC2 even mention that the yugoloths are the schemers behind the Blood War? None of the Abyssal Princes or the Lords of the Nine (bar Bel) seem to care about it, with at least one tanar'ri lord actually divorcing himself from the War.
Another point to note is that FC2 brutally retconned the entire Dark Eight. Originally, the Eight were the pit fiend generals who betrayed their Lords during the Reckoning of Baator at the command of the Dark Lord, when the factions clashed before the gates of Malsheem itself. The end result was the humbling of the rebellious Lords, Geryon's banishment and the Eight becoming Baator's effective Ministry. Even Bel himself deferred to Dagos on military matters. FC2 dramatically altered this, with the Eight becoming Bel's lackeys and living in Avernus instead of Nessus.
Then it makes you wonder about the Rebellion of the Inferiors...
There's also another mark against FC2's origin story: It mentions St Cuthbert as a god before Asmodeus fell, which conflicts with the fact that Cuthbert is an ascended mortal, thus making the Lords of the Nine a comparitively young organization. The other origin story makes more sense: that the baatezu were the larvae infected by the taint of law from the Heart of Darkness. FC2 makes no mention of the Ancient Baatorians or the baatezu connection with the yugoloths, and having Asmodeus and crew as fallen angels makes even less sense in light of Mephistopheles and Dispater's reasons for despising Belial and Baalzebul; namely that the latter two are fallen celestials and not true baatezu.
EDIT: Does FC2 even mention that the yugoloths are the schemers behind the Blood War? None of the Abyssal Princes or the Lords of the Nine (bar Bel) seem to care about it, with at least one tanar'ri lord actually divorcing himself from the War.
Another point to note is that FC2 brutally retconned the entire Dark Eight. Originally, the Eight were the pit fiend generals who betrayed their Lords during the Reckoning of Baator at the command of the Dark Lord, when the factions clashed before the gates of Malsheem itself. The end result was the humbling of the rebellious Lords, Geryon's banishment and the Eight becoming Baator's effective Ministry. Even Bel himself deferred to Dagos on military matters. FC2 dramatically altered this, with the Eight becoming Bel's lackeys and living in Avernus instead of Nessus.
Then it makes you wonder about the Rebellion of the Inferiors...
Oh, I know. I just personally think it's the best (regarding Asmodeus, at least).
Asmodeus was mentioned far earlier than that...
Dragon #28 (which had a disclaimer that it wasn't official for AD&D) had Asmodeus as taking over after Satan challenged God. After the fall, Satan ruled with an iron fist, and the other fallen angels realized they'd exchanged one "tyrant" for another. Satan was driven out, and Beelzebub took over. But he was a weak and ineffective ruler, as he tried to rule without the heavy-handed policies that had resulted in Satan's exile from Hell. Asmodeus eventually took over with a very effective system of favors owed to him and blackmail material that he'd collected on others, and has maintained his power base this way ever since.
"The Nine Hells" was a two-part article from Dragon #75 and #76 (by Ed Greenwood), which laid a lot of the details for the Nine Hells (of Baator) in later editions, and while it had no back-story for Asmodeus and the devils per se, it added a very rich amount of details.
Finally, I think you're referring to Dragon #91, in which Ed Greenwood writes another two articles about the Nine Hells that build off of his previous ones (those being "Nine Hells Revisited" and "Eight Devilish Questions."
That's all just the tip of the iceberg, though, as 1E and 2E had a lot more material regarding Asmodeus and the Nine Hells (I particularly enjoyed the 2E adventure "A Paladin in Hell").
FC2 seems to break from the entire history of the Outer Planes laid down in previous products, which is ironic since FC1 has nods towards that same history (e.g. page 147, Bechard's Landing).
Things like this make me wonder if the book was a nod in the direction of the (at the time) forthcoming Fourth Edition. I'm probably being overly paranoid, though.
Asmodeus was mentioned far earlier than that...
Dragon #28 (which had a disclaimer that it wasn't official for AD&D) had Asmodeus as taking over after Satan challenged God. After the fall, Satan ruled with an iron fist, and the other fallen angels realized they'd exchanged one "tyrant" for another. Satan was driven out, and Beelzebub took over. But he was a weak and ineffective ruler, as he tried to rule without the heavy-handed policies that had resulted in Satan's exile from Hell. Asmodeus eventually took over with a very effective system of favors owed to him and blackmail material that he'd collected on others, and has maintained his power base this way ever since.
"The Nine Hells" was a two-part article from Dragon #75 and #76 (by Ed Greenwood), which laid a lot of the details for the Nine Hells (of Baator) in later editions, and while it had no back-story for Asmodeus and the devils per se, it added a very rich amount of details.
Finally, I think you're referring to Dragon #91, in which Ed Greenwood writes another two articles about the Nine Hells that build off of his previous ones (those being "Nine Hells Revisited" and "Eight Devilish Questions."
That's all just the tip of the iceberg, though, as 1E and 2E had a lot more material regarding Asmodeus and the Nine Hells (I particularly enjoyed the 2E adventure "A Paladin in Hell").
FC2 seems to break from the entire history of the Outer Planes laid down in previous products, which is ironic since FC1 has nods towards that same history (e.g. page 147, Bechard's Landing).
Things like this make me wonder if the book was a nod in the direction of the (at the time) forthcoming Fourth Edition. I'm probably being overly paranoid, though.
I've heard of Spelljammer, yes. I don't know anything about it, though. I know it was an attempt to insert science fiction stuff into D&D, and I know it, for the most part, tanked utterly. I'm not even sure if it's something worth owning, which is why I haven't searched all that hard for a copy of it.
Is it in any way decent? Because Ultimate Combat has some stats for airships that are pretty solid, but I'll grant you that they won't work too well as they are. Even if space is atmosphere and essentially every world is habitable, it would take freaking forever to travel to another planet in one of them, even at maximum speed. The Pathfinder Airships might be acceptable for travel between the binary planets that represent the 'center' of the setting, but I'd need something else to go between worlds.
Does Spelljammer have anything like that?
Is it in any way decent? Because Ultimate Combat has some stats for airships that are pretty solid, but I'll grant you that they won't work too well as they are. Even if space is atmosphere and essentially every world is habitable, it would take freaking forever to travel to another planet in one of them, even at maximum speed. The Pathfinder Airships might be acceptable for travel between the binary planets that represent the 'center' of the setting, but I'd need something else to go between worlds.
Does Spelljammer have anything like that?
I have pretty much every Spelljammer product (and a lot of the supporting articles and such), and I personally liked the setting, but I can see why it didn't do so well.
Spelljammer, in broad terms, assumed that the universe of the Material Plane functioned based on Aristotelian physics for the heavens; in other words, each solar system was encased in a gigantic black crystal sphere. These crystal spheres were indestructible, but could have small portals opened by a specific magic item. Outside of the crystal spheres was the Phlogiston - a rainbow colored, flammable, unbreathable material that composed the rest of the universe (Phlogiston could never enter a crystal sphere, no matter how long a portal was opened). Phlogiston also blocked all planar travel.
Spelljammers were flying ships typically powered by a "helm," a chair that, when sat in by a spellcaster, drained their spells and converted it into energy that kept the ship aloft, and surrounded it with an "envelope" of air and a gravity plane. Spelljammers traveled one hundred million miles a day at "spelljamming speed," their top speed. When near the gravity of other objects, however, they automatically slowed down to "tactical speed," where things like battles were conducted.
Various products identified the crystal spheres around Krynn (Dragonlance), Oerth (Greyhawk), and Toril (Forgotten Realms), and other worlds and crystal spheres were detailed as well.
The setting was notable for creatures that many players considered to be difficult to take seriously, such as giff (hippo-men), dowhar (penguin-people), tinker gnomes (from Dragonlance; they'd proliferated in space), giant space hamsters (yes, seriously) and more. The setting's history also based itself loosely off of World War II, in that the Second Unhuman War (between the Imperial Elven Navy and a collection of humanoids, led by the scro - who were disciplined, intelligent orcs ("scro" is "orcs" spelled backwards)) had recently concluded in the elves' favor, leaving them as the preeminent power in space.
There's also a ship called the Spelljammer, with a capital "S," after which all other such ships are named. It's little more than a legend to most, but it does exist, and has its own powers and properties.
That should give you a pretty good overview.
Spelljammer, in broad terms, assumed that the universe of the Material Plane functioned based on Aristotelian physics for the heavens; in other words, each solar system was encased in a gigantic black crystal sphere. These crystal spheres were indestructible, but could have small portals opened by a specific magic item. Outside of the crystal spheres was the Phlogiston - a rainbow colored, flammable, unbreathable material that composed the rest of the universe (Phlogiston could never enter a crystal sphere, no matter how long a portal was opened). Phlogiston also blocked all planar travel.
Spelljammers were flying ships typically powered by a "helm," a chair that, when sat in by a spellcaster, drained their spells and converted it into energy that kept the ship aloft, and surrounded it with an "envelope" of air and a gravity plane. Spelljammers traveled one hundred million miles a day at "spelljamming speed," their top speed. When near the gravity of other objects, however, they automatically slowed down to "tactical speed," where things like battles were conducted.
Various products identified the crystal spheres around Krynn (Dragonlance), Oerth (Greyhawk), and Toril (Forgotten Realms), and other worlds and crystal spheres were detailed as well.
The setting was notable for creatures that many players considered to be difficult to take seriously, such as giff (hippo-men), dowhar (penguin-people), tinker gnomes (from Dragonlance; they'd proliferated in space), giant space hamsters (yes, seriously) and more. The setting's history also based itself loosely off of World War II, in that the Second Unhuman War (between the Imperial Elven Navy and a collection of humanoids, led by the scro - who were disciplined, intelligent orcs ("scro" is "orcs" spelled backwards)) had recently concluded in the elves' favor, leaving them as the preeminent power in space.
There's also a ship called the Spelljammer, with a capital "S," after which all other such ships are named. It's little more than a legend to most, but it does exist, and has its own powers and properties.
That should give you a pretty good overview.
Well said Alzrius.
You have pretty much everything there as the man said. Spelljammer was an interesting experiment, and while it might not solve your immediate problems, it could help provide ideas. On the other hand, if you need ship design, do ask. I've... dabbled in it for a while.
Legality aside, I would suggest acquiring a digital copy of the books to see if they're any good to you before even considering going through the bother of acquiring hard copies. If at all.
You have pretty much everything there as the man said. Spelljammer was an interesting experiment, and while it might not solve your immediate problems, it could help provide ideas. On the other hand, if you need ship design, do ask. I've... dabbled in it for a while.
Legality aside, I would suggest acquiring a digital copy of the books to see if they're any good to you before even considering going through the bother of acquiring hard copies. If at all.