Complaints about the TSAB

[Nanya]

Okay, the Misc. Nanoha Ideas thread was getting cluttered with complaints about the TSAB, so I thought I'd make this thread here.

Basically, you can post your complaints about the TSAB here, things that bug you, things you think should have been done differently in canon, and things that shouldn't be the way they are.

So, I'll start off...

The Bureau recruiting children (though, I do understand that they were built from the remains of Ancient Belka, and children age 9 were considered adults back then...), and how Graham basically got off too lightly.

So, okay, feel free to complain or respond to others you think are going too far with their complaints, but, don't start flaming each other.

 

[Mega1987]

*hides in a nearby bunker, waiting for the the catastrophe to happens.*

What? there's someone who's gonna drop a big-ass argument sooner or later.

 

[Nanya]

As Durandal's magic would've put the Book of Darkness and its host in stasis, Hayate would thus still be alive, and therefore such actions would not count as murder or assassination.

Assigning her to supposed eternal stasis I would not exactly call being *alive* in the truest sense of the word if not aware... And if she would have been aware, it would have been torture.

I dunno, being forced to resign as part of the coverup is a rather Earthlike tradition too. And don't forget that Graham was British to begin with.

Coverup... not given a real trial with real punishment such as prison time, or any true justice dished out, or any vindication of his acts against the Bureau personnel that were hospitalized because he did not speak up on his knowledge...

Basically, they protect their own, based on seniority.

He for all intents got a free pass... This is especially galling considering how in comparison they've served justice to non-members.

What would YOU do, without any sort of way of knowing how to stop an unstoppable, REGENERATING, killing machine?

Hello.. he could have gone and told the higher ups what had happened, how he had tracked it to an individual... They could have more closely examined the individual, the book, and everything else. Just because *he* could not see an out to separating the girl and the magic, does not mean no mage whatsoever could not find one given the potential time to research and resources at their disposal.

Additionally, any plan that *was* settled on would have then had the right of having gone through proper channels...

He had seemingly years to do this, considering comments by Hayate and others given how long he was 'helping' her...

Not that you really give a damn. Keep on parroting the same bullshit, PCHeintz, I'm sure someone will give you a cracker sooner or later.

Does not make it any less true.

Okay, PC, the problem is, the Bureau didn't have any idea what to do against the Book either.

I mean, the plan became "blast it with space-warping magic nuke" at the end.

The only reason that Reinforce was stopped was because Hayate was able to take control of the thing and split the Eternal Darkness from the Yami no Sho so they could do something about it.

Hell, Chrono flat out said that it was better to just destroy the book and deal with it in the future when it popped up again.

 

[Hoki]

The recruitment itself isn't that bad I think. After all the Children being recruited were given a choice. Nanoha chose to join because she was looking for a purpose in life, and apparently found it as a TSAB mage. Fate joined out of a sense of duty to prevent cases like hers to happen, Erio and Caro joined on their own free will. It's not like the TSAB was forcefully recruiting children who are or have the potential to become combat mages. If they were, then the setting in Vivid wouldn't happen.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Okay, PC, the problem is, the Bureau didn't have any idea what to do against the Book either.

I mean, the plan became "blast it with space-warping magic nuke" at the end.

The only reason that Reinforce was stopped was because Hayate was able to take control of the thing and split the Eternal Darkness from the Yami no Sho so they could do something about it.

Hell, Chrono flat out said that it was better to just destroy the book and deal with it in the future when it popped up again.

But you've missed the point... they had no idea what to do in the show because they did not have long to figure it out. Chrono, Nanha, and the rest had practically no time to do so.

Heck, he, or really his helpers under his orders, deliberately brought about it beginning to go berserk...

They could have potentially had years of close up examination of the book with Hayate's cooperation had he simply revealed everything.

It would have been before the knights appeared, and before the book was being fed power...

Containment should have been possible.

 

[Rising Dragon]

So I missed the thread's creation.

As Durandal's magic would've put the Book of Darkness and its host in stasis, Hayate would thus still be alive, and therefore such actions would not count as murder or assassination.

Assigning her to supposed eternal stasis I would not exactly call being *alive* in the truest sense of the word if not aware... And if she would have been aware, it would have been torture.

I understand your point, but ultimately she's still alive and therefore it really can't count as murder or assassination. It doesn't kill her.

Hello.. he could have gone and told the higher ups what had happened, how he had tracked it to an individual... They could have more closely examined the individual, the book, and everything else. Just because *he* could not see an out to separating the girl and the magic, does not mean no mage whatsoever could not find one given the potential time to research and resources at their disposal.

Additionally, any plan that *was* settled on would have then had the right of having gone through proper channels...

Okay, let me put it clear for you: telling the higher-ups he found it would've meant fuck-all in the end. They couldn't stop the Book of Darkness before. They tried, and it ended up taking over a battlecruiser and forcing Graham to kill a good friend via Arc-en-Ciel superweapon just to stop it, and they all knew that it only delayed the inevitable.

Examining the Book's host means fuck-all because it was slowly killing the host as she wasn't using her magic or filling the pages. They have a limited timeframe, and if the host dies, the Book moves on to another host, and they're back to square one.

The ONLY reason they managed to stop it at ALL was because the Master managed to awaken and retake control of the Book long enough to separate the Automatic Defense Program from it so they could blast it and not the Book itself, and that they had someone strong enough on hand to take advantage of Hayate's doing so. AND EVEN THEN it wasn't permanent, the Defense Program was going to regenerate ANYWAY, and was only fully stopped by the Administration program allowing her own deletion to destroy the Book for good.

Graham's measures were a stop-gap. Your proposed measures are also a stop-gap, and judging from things, his has a higher chance of working because it actually immobilizes the Book from doing anything!

 

[Nanya]

Possible, PC, maybe.

But then again, how many times has the Bureau come across the Book in the past?

But, again, I can see your point, if they had plenty of time to study it, maybe...

But then again, who knows? Maybe trying to study it would have forcibly activated it to protect itself and the master?

 

[Mega1987]

Okay, PC, the problem is, the Bureau didn't have any idea what to do against the Book either.

I mean, the plan became "blast it with space-warping magic nuke" at the end.

The only reason that Reinforce was stopped was because Hayate was able to take control of the thing and split the Eternal Darkness from the Yami no Sho so they could do something about it.

Hell, Chrono flat out said that it was better to just destroy the book and deal with it in the future when it popped up again.

But you've missed the point... they had no idea what to do in the show because they did not have long to figure it out. Chrono, Nanha, and the rest had practically no time to do so.

Heck, he, or really his helpers under his orders, deliberately brought about it beginning to go berserk...

They could have potentially had years of close up examination of the book with Hayate's cooperation had he simply revealed everything.

It would have been before the knights appeared, and before the book was being fed power...

Containment should have been possible.

OR got experimented immorally by some immoral scientist.

Take note that Jail got some backing from the higher echelons of TSAB before screwing the plans of the Brain Jars and Ragius for his OWN plans.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Studying the Book in the meantime has merit, but doing so results in the unpleasant situation of condemning Hayate to a slow death. The Book was killing her, thus putting a time limit on the study, and the only ways around that were A) freezing it like Graham attempted, or B) filling the pages and letting Hayate utilize the magic, which severely limits the study time as it would bring the Book closer to activation.

And at that point you'll have endangered Mid-childa or whatever planet said study was occurring on.

 

[Nanya]

Plus, wasn't it said that they had no idea how to fix the problem anyway? That the Protection Program was too complex or something? I mean, they had data on it...

 

[Hoki]

Okay, PC, the problem is, the Bureau didn't have any idea what to do against the Book either.

I mean, the plan became "blast it with space-warping magic nuke" at the end.

The only reason that Reinforce was stopped was because Hayate was able to take control of the thing and split the Eternal Darkness from the Yami no Sho so they could do something about it.

Hell, Chrono flat out said that it was better to just destroy the book and deal with it in the future when it popped up again.

But you've missed the point... they had no idea what to do in the show because they did not have long to figure it out. Chrono, Nanha, and the rest had practically no time to do so.

Heck, he, or really his helpers under his orders, deliberately brought about it beginning to go berserk...

They could have potentially had years of close up examination of the book with Hayate's cooperation had he simply revealed everything.

It would have been before the knights appeared, and before the book was being fed power...

Containment should have been possible.

Lets see... If I remember correctly, during the time Graham first captured the Book, it was incomplete. They tried sealing it through conventional methods but the Book forcefully unsealed itself and took over the ship it was on (Clyde's ship, Hestia), thus forcing Graham to nuke the ship. So obviously they tried to contain the book, but failed to do so. And since the TSAB's solution to Lost Logia is containment, they were at a loss on what to do with something that cannot be contained. Graham's "freeze completed B.o.D in a limbo dimension" is basically a containment measure as well, until Chrono pointed out that somebody will find it if they wanted to and forcefully unseal it.

And as pointed out earlier, the automated defense program will reconstruct itself as long as the main administrative system of the Tome of the Night Sky (Reinforce) is active, so she chose to be deleted as it was the only sure fire solution to permanently get rid of the berserk program.

 

[PCHeintz72]

But... you guys are assuming knowledge is static and nothing new and no new approach could be tried...

We do not know exactly what all the approaches that were tried the prior time, only as has been stated on screen.

I admit giving the TSAB access to something that powerful to study when I view them the way I do in regards tot heir overall morals and motivation is scary.

However, knowledge is not static, they know now what approaches in the past did not work, so they know not to attempt them again.

Heck... Yuuno or others would have had plenty of time to go through old records on it, to research possibilities in the main Library...

In regards to Hayates condition, yes, she was dying, but we know for a fact she survived years under it due to events on screen, we also know had he done so as soon as found it, he would have had years to let the TSAB study it, years they did not have before.

Could she have died from the attempts to separate them, certainly, I did not say it was a guarantee to her survival and no blowup...

Preparations could have been made to minimize any such blowup... a facility in a remote location for example. Not putting any populated planet in jeopardy...

I still emphatically believe this approach has the moral high ground... on multiple levels, considering all that occurred in canon.

Heck I would have praised them had they even failed, as at least the attempt would have been made. And the potential knowledge gained even from yet another failed blow up would have been useful for future encounters...

 

[Rising Dragon]

Yeah, and she lived those years paralyzed and unable to utilize her legs, while also going through episodes of pain that healing magic can do nothing for. The evidence that we have thus far is that tampering with the Book generally puts it into a "kill everything" mode. Knowledge not being static matters little in this regard. It is hard to further knowledge when doing so risks the planet you're on.

As for the moral high ground? Well, let me put it this way: stand among the ashes of the dead and ask them if they care that you had the moral high ground when it resulted in their deaths. I get what you're saying, but what you propose was dangerous and even less likely to help than what Graham's plan was. And you're mainly taking this "moral high ground" just because you see the Bureau as something it isn't.

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

Does not make it any less true.

I'm not exactly sure how something can be less true than not being true in the first place.

 

[Kuroi Hadou]

My favorite part about all of this is how everyone seems to just accept the TSAB as being responsible for a rogue madwoman and an unaffiliated scholar trying to collect and activate the jewel seeds.

 

[PCHeintz72]

Yeah, and she lived those years paralyzed and unable to utilize her legs, while also going through episodes of pain that healing magic can do nothing for. The evidence that we have thus far is that tampering with the Book generally puts it into a "kill everything" mode. Knowledge not being static matters little in this regard. It is hard to further knowledge when doing so risks the planet you're on.

I never once claimed Graham responsible for her medical condition except possibly due to inaction by not involving everyone and having her examined (by full TSAB researchers and medicine and scanners, not Earth science or one Belkin mage/knight)...

But if they could have examined her in those years, it could have gone better for her than it did...

My favorite part about all of this is how everyone seems to just accept the TSAB as being responsible for a rogue madwoman and an unaffiliated scholar trying to collect and activate the jewel seeds.

Blinks... I've never heard that view myself...

I always thought while Yuuno should have been punished for his involvement in the events overall (more than what ended up happening at any rate), I never thought he should have been punished for that specifically since he was not technically attempting to activate them but capture them (for hording by TSAB, but that is a different issue).

Precia I never once assumed was associated with the TSAB nor them responsible for her, they were in fact hunting her for her past actions...

In point of fact, I felt they were wrong to blame Fate as they did by association with Precia, instead of laying it more at her feet... Fate was merely following her parent as ordered... That she was incarcerated and confined as she was I felt unjust and assumed they were merely looking for a scapegoat since Precia was not at hand...

 

[zeebee1]

What it comes down to is that any time they tried a new approach and failed they would lose lives and they might lose entire planets. Freezing the Book while they attempted to find a more permanent solution would have saved entire civilizations. Just studying the book was too dangerous.

 

[ragnarok1337]

Yeah, and she lived those years paralyzed and unable to utilize her legs, while also going through episodes of pain that healing magic can do nothing for. The evidence that we have thus far is that tampering with the Book generally puts it into a "kill everything" mode. Knowledge not being static matters little in this regard. It is hard to further knowledge when doing so risks the planet you're on.

I never once claimed Graham responsible for her medical condition except possibly due to inaction by not involving everyone and having her examined (by full TSAB researchers and medicine and scanners, not Earth science or one Belkin mage/knight)...

But if they could have examined her in those years, it could have gone better for her than it did...

My favorite part about all of this is how everyone seems to just accept the TSAB as being responsible for a rogue madwoman and an unaffiliated scholar trying to collect and activate the jewel seeds.

Blinks... I've never heard that view myself...

I always thought while Yuuno should have been punished for his involvement in the events overall (more than what ended up happening at any rate), I never thought he should have been punished for that specifically since he was not technically attempting to activate them but capture them (for hording by TSAB, but that is a different issue).

Precia I never once assumed was associated with the TSAB nor them responsible for her, they were in fact hunting her for her past actions...

In point of fact, I felt they were wrong to blame Fate as they did by association with Precia, instead of laying it more at her feet... Fate was merely following her parent as ordered... That she was incarcerated and confined as she was I felt unjust and assumed they were merely looking for a scapegoat since Precia was not at hand...

Remind me, how exactly was Fate punished? As I remember it, there was no punishment, and she got off scot-free, and was adopted by a kind family to boot. Yeah. Some "punishment."

 

[PCHeintz72]

Remind me, how exactly was Fate punished? As I remember it, there was no punishment, and she got off scot-free, and was adopted by a kind family to boot. Yeah. Some "punishment."

IIRC 6 months incarcerations, and unable to see her one friend...

Considering everything, they really had no right. Of course, I guess Nanoha could have pressed charges, but she did not...

 

[zeebee1]

Just why would they have had no right. What government did Precia's family come from and what would have happened if the Japanese government tried to take the law into her own hands. She's a clone with potentially non-human parentage. There are no laws in regards to clones so any court on Earth would treat her as a non-human. She was a pet. And when an animal is trained to attack someone they are either taught to behave or are put down.

If that isn't the case then chances are she's a citizen of the TSAB and therefore there laws are applicable. So you have no reason to question their rights.

 

[Hoki]

Yeah, and she lived those years paralyzed and unable to utilize her legs, while also going through episodes of pain that healing magic can do nothing for. The evidence that we have thus far is that tampering with the Book generally puts it into a "kill everything" mode. Knowledge not being static matters little in this regard. It is hard to further knowledge when doing so risks the planet you're on.

I never once claimed Graham responsible for her medical condition except possibly due to inaction by not involving everyone and having her examined (by full TSAB researchers and medicine and scanners, not Earth science or one Belkin mage/knight)...

But if they could have examined her in those years, it could have gone better for her than it did...

So you are proposing that the TSAB experiment with a young kid, for years if I might add, to find out possible ways the logia she's associated with could be sealed? What makes you any better than the guy who opted to freeze her together with the book out of pity because she was alone and nobody would mourn for her? If anything, I'd say your proposal would be worse than Graham's

 

[PCHeintz72]

Just why would they have had no right. What government did Precia's family come from and what would have happened if the Japanese government tried to take the law into her own hands. She's a clone with potentially non-human parentage. There are no laws in regards to clones so any court on Earth would treat her as a non-human. She was a pet. And when an animal is trained to attack someone they are either taught to behave or are put down.

If that isn't the case then chances are she's a citizen of the TSAB and therefore there laws are applicable. So you have no reason to question their rights.

Consider,

She was not really a Midchildean citizen (she was a clone). Even if the argument that a clone has rights as a citizen there (we know they do due to StrikerS and the sisters), she would probably not be one as she was isolated from that government and not even raised in it. The only records they would have would be for Alicia, not Fate.

Her 'crimes' were not in Midchildean space,

The seeds were not technically Midchildean or TSAB creations or property.

Her fighting was mostly against Nanoha.

It could be argued the TSAB has no legal authority on Earth thus her actions against Chrono or Yuuno would be self defense.

So, while Nanoha would have a case, we know she would not have pressed charges...

Are you actually arguing they should have 'put her down'?

 

[Rising Dragon]

I never once claimed Graham responsible for her medical condition except possibly due to inaction by not involving everyone and having her examined (by full TSAB researchers and medicine and scanners, not Earth science or one Belkin mage/knight)...

But if they could have examined her in those years, it could have gone better for her than it did...

I didn't accuse you of such, either, but it doesn't change the fact that this "more free" life still has her slowly dying and such, and she'd probably be a lot less happy with her life being poked and prodded and examined and such, and possibly considered dangerous for being the Master of the Book of Darkness. There'd be much less of a chance for her and the Wolkenritter to develop as a family--remember, Hayate is the reason the Wolkenritter stopped being weapons and started being people, and in Bureau-controlled space, they are considered dangerous criminals with massive records, responsible for the destruction of entire planets. It's not likely they'll be allowed to move freely, given their ability to summon the Book and harvest Linker Cores for its completion.

I always thought while Yuuno should have been punished for his involvement in the events overall (more than what ended up happening at any rate), I never thought he should have been punished for that specifically since he was not technically attempting to activate them but capture them (for hording by TSAB, but that is a different issue).

Yuuno is an archaelogist. It is his job to unearth these relics and take them in for study and safekeeping, and exploring the past and such. Yes, there is a danger with dealing with Lost Logia, but it is not always such--not every Lost Logia is an artifact of doom. The auction in StrikerS that he attended? Those were for safe Lost Logia.

Lost Logia need to be studied to ensure their effects are not harmful, and if so, learn how to deal with said effects. Do not fault the boy for doing his job. Everything was going fine until Precia blasted the ship carrying them, and he responsibly went to retrieve them and stop them from wreaking havoc.

Remind me, how exactly was Fate punished? As I remember it, there was no punishment, and she got off scot-free, and was adopted by a kind family to boot. Yeah. Some "punishment."

IIRC 6 months incarcerations, and unable to see her one friend...

Considering everything, they really had no right. Of course, I guess Nanoha could have pressed charges, but she did not...

Wasn't much of one. Was still able to communicate with others, including her "one friend", and move about freely.

 

[ragnarok1337]

Remind me, how exactly was Fate punished? As I remember it, there was no punishment, and she got off scot-free, and was adopted by a kind family to boot. Yeah. Some "punishment."

IIRC 6 months incarcerations, and unable to see her one friend...

Considering everything, they really had no right. Of course, I guess Nanoha could have pressed charges, but she did not...

IIRC Fate and Nanoha regularly exchanged video letters. How exactly could Nanoha have pressed charges, anyway?

 

[PCHeintz72]

So you are proposing that the TSAB experiment with a young kid, for years if I might add, to find out possible ways the logia she's associated with could be sealed? What makes you any better than the guy who opted to freeze her together with the book out of pity because she was alone and nobody would mourn for her? If anything, I'd say your proposal would be worse than Graham's

*Experiment*... no... *Cure*... yes...