Nasuverse Darker Than FATE

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
Ragnarock said:
MoB, I'm sorry, I tried, I really did, but talking to mike is turning out to be a total waste of time since he's desperate to trash your fic just because Sakura dies. I wish you the best of luck and I look forward to you finishing this.
Pointing out the blatent flaws in his idea is not "trashing the fic", or at least not unjustifiably so. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with Sakura dying, it's just the way that he seems to want to pretend that MoS Shirou is something he's not.

Isn't MoS Shirou the Shirou that becomes Archer?
No, Archer comes from a more Fate-like timeline. He cared far too much for the people in his life (Ilya especially) to be MoS Shirou.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Ragnarock said:
Fuck it, I give up.

MoB, I'm sorry, I tried, I really did, but talking to mike is turning out to be a total waste of time since he's desperate to trash your fic just because Sakura dies. I wish you the best of luck and I look forward to you finishing this.
So in other words, I'm on my own. Great...

Since I'm banned from Beast's Lair I can't continue to get Irun's help, and Mike seems absolutly determined to make it impossible for me to write Fate/Stay Night fanfiction, I give up...

Congrats Mike, you've proven yourself to be the biggest asshole in all of TFF, I hope your happy. How anybody can stand to be near you shall remain the greatest mystery in all the world...
 

Elf

Well-Known Member
Ragnarock said:
Isn't MoS Shirou the Shirou that becomes Archer?
Nope.

We don't know what reality Archer's from, but it's been hinted at that it's close to the Fate route. However it sort of seems like Archer didn't fall for Saber and seemed to be rather close to Rin. Like he knew exactly how to push her buttons not to mention how he's dere dere to her while Tsun tsun to everyone else.

Honestly, I'd LOVE to get a light novel with Archer's back story.
 

Ragnarock

Well-Known Member
No, bad fanfic makes the characters OOC to fit the story. Good fanfic simply changes the situation so that they act differently and follows on from that (which doesn't mean you can't take some liberties, but not to the point of outright OOCness).
Bad fanfic = Bad grammar + bad plot + boring characters + unbelievable scenes.
Good fanfic = Good grammar + good plot + interesting characters + believable scenes.

OCC is not part of the equation.

And did you miss the part where I asked why the fuck Kotomine would act in a way which massively reduces his potential for trolling to benefit a guy who is the son of his arch-enemy and following very much in said enemy's footsteps?
Must there be a reason? This isn't Gilgamesh, Rider or whatnot, this is Kotomine fucking Kirei. He does everthing he does for enjoyment.

Why are you so fucking meticulous anyway? This fiction is past the War yet you are pressing about bullshit that happens during the war...why?

Pointing out the blatent flaws in his idea is not "trashing the fic", or at least not unjustifiably so. And it has nothing whatsoever to do with Sakura dying, it's just the way that he seems to want to pretend that MoS Shirou is something he's not.
In a numbered system, please list all of these "blatent flaws" so that I can reply to them easily.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
Ragnarock said:
Bad fanfic = Bad grammar + bad plot + boring characters + unbelievable scenes.
Good fanfic = Good grammar + good plot + interesting characters + believable scenes.

OCC is not part of the equation.
Not when you're talking about a fanfic.

An OOC fanfic cannot be classed as a good fanfic, even if it would be a perfectly good fic in its own right, because the whole point of a fanfic is to take the characters and/or setting from a known story and use them to tell a new story.

A fanfic which uses OCs that just happen to be named after the characters from the original story does not belong in the fanfic section at all, and if it is placed there it will (hopefully) be justifably shot down due to OOCness, regardless of the quality of the story itself.


Must there be a reason? This isn't Gilgamesh, Rider or whatnot, this is Kotomine fucking Kirei. He does everthing he does for enjoyment.
Yes, and how the hell does he get "enjoyment" from that?

He would have a lot more fun freeing her and watching her try to kill Shirou, or fake-wiping her mind and waiting for her to plot her revenge.

Why are you so fucking meticulous anyway? This fiction is past the War yet you are pressing about bullshit that happens during the war...why?
Because it's relevant?

In a numbered system, please list all of these "blatent flaws" so that I can reply to them easily.
I've spent the last several pages doing so, and honestly I can't be bothered to go through the whole fic or all of my posts on the topic to re-list them for your convinience.
 

Algnar

Well-Known Member
Cherry_lover said:
Well, then, what path do you like? The one where Sakura gets worm-raped for the rest of her life and then dies under Zouken's torture?
Ironicly I love the Fate / Stay Night path. Shirou wasn't mature enough prior to the grail war to be what Sakura needed to heal her from the wounds she has endured. After learning about love and loss through his relationship with Saber I think post FSN Shirou is a much better canidate for a relationship partner for Sakura. in my own personal Fate universe, Rin leaves for the clocktower and Shirou and Sakura hook up for domestic bliss :p And Shirou and Rin working together can take care of the worm issue by getting rid of them :p

Yes, but not willingly.
Look she was less mind controlled and more driven bug fuck psycho in the end. Yeah at first she's under thrall, but then after shinj's blackmail attempt she breaks and gives in.

How the fuck can you call killing Sakura justice. She never chose to kill anyone, and she was not in any way in control of the shadow. Zouken is the one responsible, and Zouken got punished accordingly. Sakura's own hyperactive conscience and the eleven years of horrific torture she went through provide provide far more of a punishment than she deserves for an act which she had no control over and made every effort to resist.
Okay I phrased that wrong because it does imply Sakura deserved to be put to death post events of the grail war. which is wrong cause looking at it from an actual legal ethical standpoint you right she was clearly not mentally competent or in control during those events and she needs a mental hospital not a death sentence or even a prison sentence.

Look the preemptive killing of sakura without for knowledge of what she did in MoS WAS wrong due to motivation and intent but not necessarily in action.

Do you have any military/police/security training? I ask Because in real life police who face people who are having psychotic episodes or other severe mental illness issues have to make a similar choice.

Usually those undergoing such things are harmless.. but once in a while they start presenting a serious danger to those around them. In theory it would be nice to restrain them, but often times trying to do that is damn dangerous itself either to those they are threatening or you trying to restrain them. In those cases police, security, even bystanders have to pick one of several very unpleasant options.

You might be facing a person who with the right medication and therapy would be a upstanding member of society, loved by family and community.. but right there at the point of decision they are a serious danger to peoples lives, or even in the process of killing someone or potentially killing you, so the least worst option open to you is to use lethal force to stop them. It's tragic, but it sometimes what has to happen to avert worse tragedies.


tl;dr version: I carry a gun, I have to accept that fact the possibility exists I might have to shoot a poor crazy person, who might be a nice person while medicated in order save an innocent life. It sucks, but shit happens.

Shirou and Rin needed to hammer Sakura hard once they realized what was going on. And Rin's deciding at the last moment to rely on the power of love was only a good choice in fiction (which we are talking about so I guess its a moot point) In real life, it just leads to more bad shit and if you survive such stupidity usually results in a life time of therapy and alcoholism, versus a decade of therapy for making the hard choice :p


And seriously you come off as a worse ass then MoB.
 

marthf1

Well-Known Member
If you are abhorrent to what the concept of a story is, say your piece than leave. It is like how I hate what is going on with Gabriel Blessing's stories, but I don't go in there & rage until the thread dies. I tried to clearly explain why it is not my cup of tea, then just observed. You are causing provocation because you want the thread to change or die for making Sakura 'OoC', among a couple other minor things. I don't think you should be going on a crusade against all threads for doing that because you would die under the vastness of the Internet. You can't be a so-call sanity check for every F/S-N author on the planet, nor should you.
 
Hey GUYS, what's going on in this thread?

*Sees Mike trolling MOB*

Figures.

Well, shall we continue discussion then, hmm?
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
Algnar said:
Ironicly I love the Fate / Stay Night path.? Shirou wasn't mature enough prior to the grail war to be what Sakura needed to heal her from the wounds she has endured. After learning about love and loss through his relationship with Saber I think post FSN Shirou is a much better canidate for a relationship partner for Sakura. in my own personal Fate universe, Rin leaves for the clocktower and Shirou and Sakura hook up for domestic bliss :p And Shirou and Rin working together can take care of the worm issue by getting rid of them :p
I assume you mean the Fate path.

But I guess that that's a possibility, although I would imagine Saber fans would be less than happy with the idea....

Look she was less mind controlled and more driven bug fuck psycho in the end. Yeah at first she's under thrall, but then after shinj's blackmail attempt she breaks and gives in.
Well, 1) she's not sane at that point and 2) she doesn't actually kill anyone in that form (Zouken, Shinji and Kotomine excepted, and they all deserve to die).

Okay I phrased that wrong because it does imply Sakura deserved to be put to death post events of the grail war. which is wrong cause looking at it from an actual legal ethical standpoint you right she was clearly not mentally competent or in control during those events and she needs a mental hospital not a death sentence or even a prison sentence.
Actually, she doesn't even need a mental hospital, because sh's not responsible

Look the preemptive killing of sakura without for knowledge of what she did in MoS WAS wrong due to motivation and intent but not necessarily in action.
With hindsight, you could perhaps argue that (although I'm not convinced, because I don't think Shirou would win the war in MoS anyway, and IMO with hindsight there were probably ways to save Sakura and the people who were eaten by the shadow), but given what Shirou knew at the time it was not the right decision.

Do you have any military/police/security training? I aská Because in real life police who face people who are having psychotic episodes or other severe mental illness issues have to make a similar choice.

Usually those undergoing such things are harmless.. but once in a while they start presenting a serious danger to those around them. In theory it would be nice to restrain them, but often times trying to do that is damn dangerous itself either to those they are threatening or you trying to restrain them. In those cases police, security, even bystanders have to pick one of several very unpleasant options.

You might be facing a person who with the right medication and therapy would be a upstanding member of society, loved by family and community.. but right there at the point of decision they are a serious danger to peoples lives, or even in the process of killing someone or potentially killing you, so the least worst option open to you is to use lethal force to stop them. It's tragic, but it sometimes what has to happen to avert worse tragedies.
Of course, but that does not apply to Sakura because, at that exact moment, she is not a danger. What you're saying here is like saying that the police should murder all insane people in the sleep in case they forget to take their medication one day and go nuts.

tl;dr version: I carry a gun, I have to accept that fact the possibility exists I might have to shoot a poor crazy person, who might be a nice person while medicated in order save an innocent life. It sucks, but shit happens.
Perhaps, but doing so should be the absolute last resort, which you only take if there is no other possible alternative and the threat is imminent. That was simply not true in HF, because at no point did Shirou ever come across Sakura when she was in the process of eating people. Even the second time around there were alternatives, like watching over her to prevent her killing again (or, indeed, just going and dealing with Zouken there and then, which would at least give her a chance of survival).

Shirou and Rin needed to hammer Sakura hard once they realized what was going on.
Or, alternately, they could give her a chance and actually save her life.

And Rin's deciding at the last moment to rely on the power of love was only a good choice in fiction (which we are talking about so I guess its a moot point)
Given the situation, it was the only real option. I mean, Sakura ripped Zouken's worm out of her own heart without even flinching. Do you honestly think that a tiny little knife could kill her?

In real life, it just leads to more bad shit and if you survive such stupidity usuallyá results in a life time of therapy and alcoholism, versus a decade of therapy for making the hard choice :p
I disagree with this statement. There are many cases where not going trigger-happy is definitely the best choice, and HF was one of them.
 

Ragnarock

Well-Known Member
Not when you're talking about a fanfic.

An OOC fanfic cannot be classed as a good fanfic, even if it would be a perfectly good fic in its own right, because the whole point of a fanfic is to take the characters and/or setting from a known story and use them to tell a new story.

A fanfic which uses OCs that just happen to be named after the characters from the original story does not belong in the fanfic section at all, and if it is placed there it will (hopefully) be justifably shot down due to OOCness, regardless of the quality of the story itself.
1) Are you saying a story with OCC elements cannot be called a "fanfiction" because it is not true to the source material?

2) Would you rather read an "OCC" story with an incredibly fascinating plot or a completely predictable and boring story that sticks to canon? (Let's assume both writers are good with grammar)

I've spent the last several pages doing so, and honestly I can't be bothered to go through the whole fic or all of my posts on the topic to re-list them for your convinience.
Fair enough.

But seriously, instead of just jabbing every little thing how about you provide an alternative to the situations/scenarios you find implausible? That would save everyone time and allow us to remain on topic.
 
ItsaRandomUsername said:
Hey GUYS, what's going on in this thread?
IRUN, you magnificent bastard. I read your post!
 
Oh gwarsh.


ANYWAY, back on subject~

Let's forget about the "past" for now and get to work. The more important details are the here and now - or rather the current setting for Darker Than FATE.

We need to establish who the enemies will eventually become, and why the "heroes" get into a conflict with them.

I recall MOB saying he'd try for the Magic Association, but what we need to figure out is what and why antagonism happens. After all Shirou/Faker does freelance work and is currently in a contract(?) at the moment with them. (Is this right? He'd be doing work for the Association at the moment, right?)

Work gets done, we get some unrelated "missions" as mini-arcs written just like in the original Darker Than BLACK (Assassination :lonegunman: , mostly, but work would also involve anything regarding "hero work"), but perhaps all of the missions end up having some sort of connections with each other.

IIRC, Kotomine working with Shirou and sparing Rin is a problem? Well as much as CL will attest otherwise, Kotomine will at this point have viewed Shirou as Kiritsugu Version 2. (And besides, the story is based off of "Faker", and Shirou and Kotomine tag-teamed just fine there until Shirou put a cap in the priest's ass.) Honestly, IMO, Kotomine would be just fine with Rin's suffering. He's the Troll Priest, after all, and removing Rin's arm (which bears the Tohsaka Crest) would be deliciously humilating. After all, Rin became a "true Magus". It's a REAL low-blow to lose that, and not to mention pretty crippling magic-wise. Rin without the Crest/possibly seals (what arm were the seals on again? I forget) that is also being locked up is no longer a threat.

Faker would be better off killing her, but at this point she wouldn't be able to recover from this until the end of the war. There would also be that little bit of Shirou in the back of his mind that would not want her truly dead.

Anyway, back to normal Darker Than FATE:
Rin as the Misaki would serve best for character interactions and conflict. She'd work as the Huang too (with regards to despising the one she works with), so in the end it's your choice.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
ItsaRandomUsername said:
Let's forget about the "past" for now and get to work.? The more important details are the here and now - or rather the current setting for Darker Than FATE.

We need to establish who the enemies will eventually become, and why the "heroes" get into a conflict with them.

I recall MOB saying he'd try for the Magic Association, but what we need to figure out is what and why antagonism happens. After all Shirou/Faker does freelance work and is currently in a contract(?) at the moment with them. (Is this right? He'd be doing work for the Association at the moment, right?)
Heroes - Fake/Emiya Shirou, Illyasviel von inzbern, White Len and the Liason for the Association.

Villians - Assossiation, FBI and MI6

Yeah, the reason the the Assossiation betrys him, is because as Shirou's humanity begins to return, he stops being as effective at assassination as he was before.

The FBI and MI6 are after him simply because he wors for the assossation, and is believed to be the person killing people with bladed weaponry that leave no trace.

ItsaRandomUsername said:
Work gets done, we get some unrelated "missions" as mini-arcs written just like in the original Darker Than BLACK (Assassination? :lonegunman: , mostly, but work would also involve anything regarding "hero work"), but perhaps all of the missions end up having some sort of connections with each other.
The missions could have tie in's with each other, but would it be better for them to be subtle, so people are suprised when they figure it out?
 
He also has a Reality Marble, so he's someone the Association would love to "seal" if they caught wind of that.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
True...
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
ItsaRandomUsername said:
IIRC, Kotomine working with Shirou and sparing Rin is a problem?? Well as much as CL will attest otherwise, Kotomine will at this point have viewed Shirou as Kiritsugu Version 2.? (And besides, the story is based off of "Faker", and Shirou and Kotomine tag-teamed just fine there until Shirou put a cap in the priest's ass.)
Yes, and Kotomine hates Kiritsugu. Shirou and Kotomine might be able to work together for a while here, but Kotomine is not going to do anything that isn't in his own interests.

Honestly, IMO, Kotomine would be just fine with Rin's suffering.á He's the Troll Priest, after all, and removing Rin's arm (which bears the Tohsaka Crest) would be deliciously humilating.á After all, Rin became a "true Magus". It's a REAL low-blow to lose that, and not to mention pretty crippling magic-wise.
Well, this may perhaps be true, but that still gives him no reason to lock her up rather than stand by and watch her pathetic attempts to kill Shirou and him.

Rin without the Crest/possibly seals (what arm were the seals on again? I forget) that is also being locked up is no longer a threat.
That wouldn't make her work with Shirou, though.

Faker would be better off killing her, but at this point she wouldn't be able to recover from this until the end of the war.
Then why wouldn't he just kill her?

There would also be that little bit of Shirou in the back of his mind that would not want her truly dead.
The same bit that didn't want to kill Sakura, you mean?

That Shirou is gone, remember. That's the entire premise of MoS.
 
Well, it seems as if Rin is no longer gonna be working alongside Shirou, so this is now a pretty moot point. I have no idea what Masta wants Rin's fate to be now. :p

Whoever said Kotomine wouldn't try to further his own goals via doing this? Honestly, if you even took the time to read to read Faker you would know that Shirou kills Kotomine at some point in time during their "alliance". BADDABAM! So I guess Kiritsugu won out in the end, huh? ANYWAY...

So, any suggestions for possible missions? I'm sure Masta has a couple in mind.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
ItsaRandomUsername said:
Well, it seems as if Rin is no longer gonna be working alongside Shirou, so this is now a pretty moot point. I have no idea what Masta wants Rin's fate to be now. :p

Whoever said Kotomine wouldn't try to further his own goals via doing this? Honestly, if you even took the time to read to read Faker you would know that Shirou kills Kotomine at some point in time during their "alliance". BADDABAM! So I guess Kiritsugu won out in the end, huh? ANYWAY...

So, any suggestions for possible missions? I'm sure Masta has a couple in mind.
I need to know more about what's possible with Fate magic before I go into planning the missions, and I'm still on the fence about what to do with Rin, on one hand Mike has a point, on the other hand it's Mike so I'm tempted to just do it anyway.

Still, I think at this point it might be better to focus on antagonists and targets, before going back to the heroes.

If it comes to it, I can just set it up so he has diffrent teammates depending on the mission type.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
I need to know more about what's possible with Fate magic before I go into planning the missions, and I'm still on the fence about what to do with Rin, on one hand Mike has a point, on the other hand it's Mike so I'm tempted to just do it anyway.
If you want to put Rin with Shirou just to spite me, please go ahead. I'm not going to like this fic either way (even if it was the best-written fic in the world, written by someone I like, I would still not enjoy it due to the setting), and when you do, I'll just quote this post, laugh and say that you're altering your fic to be more OOC just to annoy me....
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Cherry_lover said:
MastaofBitches said:
I need to know more about what's possible with Fate magic before I go into planning the missions, and I'm still on the fence about what to do with Rin, on one hand Mike has a point, on the other hand it's Mike so I'm tempted to just do it anyway.
If you want to put Rin with Shirou just to spite me, please go ahead. I'm not going to like this fic either way (even if it was the best-written fic in the world, written by someone I like, I would still not enjoy it due to the setting), and when you do, I'll just quote this post, laugh and say that you're altering your fic to be more OOC just to annoy me....
So it doesn't matter either way? Great! ^_^
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
Cherry_lover said:
MastaofBitches said:
I need to know more about what's possible with Fate magic before I go into planning the missions, and I'm still on the fence about what to do with Rin, on one hand Mike has a point, on the other hand it's Mike so I'm tempted to just do it anyway.
If you want to put Rin with Shirou just to spite me, please go ahead. I'm not going to like this fic either way (even if it was the best-written fic in the world, written by someone I like, I would still not enjoy it due to the setting), and when you do, I'll just quote this post, laugh and say that you're altering your fic to be more OOC just to annoy me....
So it doesn't matter either way? Great! ^_^
Well, it depends entirely on whether you're more interested in writing a good story that actually makes canon sense or trying (and failing) to wind me up....
 
Different teammates for each mission seems like a given, although obviously there would be the regulars as well (which would at least include Illya).

As for missions...obviously one would involve a magus who went batshit nutso and is like doing experiments. The issue here is that he's been caught by the Association, because they have a pretty lax set of morals regarding magus-doctrine. "Don't get caught. Otherwise you can do whatever shit you like."

It can't just be a small-potatoes kind of magus-infraction. Something that would require the use of Faker. Big enough for a job requiring Faker's talents.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
ItsaRandomUsername said:
Different teammates for each mission seems like a given, although obviously there would be the regulars as well (which would at least include Illya).

As for missions...obviously one would involve a magus who went batshit nutso and is like doing experiments. The issue here is that he's been caught by the Association, because they have a pretty lax set of morals regarding magus-doctrine. "Don't get caught. Otherwise you can do whatever shit you like."

It can't just be a small-potatoes kind of magus-infraction. Something that would require the use of Faker. Big enough for a job requiring Faker's talents.
Hmm, Well, what if he's taken a few of the Higher up's kids to use as test subjects?
 
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