Dragon Age: Origins

[Meinos Kaen]

I guess this game deserved a topic per se like Mass Effect, having one epic story but also an incredible re-telling capacity with all the different choices and consequences in-game. Even the smallest actions can have damn big repercussions. I had to go through the Landsmeet three times before I had the ending I wanted, on my first playthrough.

Apart reccomending any good fics, I suppose this is a place like any to discuss just what is the game's Canon or what it should be. Browsing through the forums and the fics, there's an idea that stuck to me. As in, the Warden being the Wardens. In my opinion, three of them, since there's four situations in the game that can be given relevance and/or can end up being resolved for the best in the end just if your main character goes through a particular Origins Story.

(From this point on, of course, there are spoilers.) The trio as I see it is this:

Cousland, Human Noble: Being probably the 'canon' protagonist from the story, it's also instrumental because of his ties to Arl Howe and consequently to Loghain and the rest of the nobles. His influence can also be important for strenghtening his companions' positions. There's also the fact that he can also choose to be married to Anora and become the next king.

Surana, Elf Mage: To tie up two important points, I think in an ideal story, the elf mage should also have its origins in the Alienage, since that would make the character sensible both to the Circle's situation and the City Elves' situation, allowing to intervene on both choices, and thus choosing freedom for both the mages AND the alienage elves.

Aeducan, Dwarven Noble: Again, this is pivotal because Orzamarr's situation is the most grey situation of the whole story. No matter who you end up choosing, it seems that it doesn't end well for the dwarves. While the 'legitimate' heir is a crazy fucker, Harrowmont isolates the dwarves even further and dies soon, letting the fight for the throne begin again. If the Dwarven Noble origins is played and Harrowmont is chosen, the latter can choose the warden as his successor.

So... Thoughts?

 

[GenocideHeart]

If you explore carefully, you do find out what happened to the other candidates for Wardens in the other characters' origins. In the Circle Tower, it mentions that recently a young mage had been imprisoned for aiding a Bloodmage, in Dust Town Leske mentions his friend let himself die of starvation, in Orzammar it mentions the third Aeducan scion disappeared in the tunnels, in the Dalish tribe it mentions two young elves were lost, in the Alienage it mentions a tragedy during a recent marriage, and in the Cousland case, it mentions the whole family being exterminated.

In short, Duncan only had time to make a single round.

Add to this the massively low survival rate for the Joining, and frankly pretending that three Warden hopefuls would all survive when you only managed a 1 in 3 and Alistair himself mentions when he was made Warden, the other candidate died horribly... not to mention telling you often all candidates die messily...

Three Wardens is pushing it, sorry. If anything, make NPCs that normally vanish recruitable. Like the Aeducan scion's second (G-something?), or Jowan...

 

[Meinos Kaen]

If you explore carefully, you do find out what happened to the other candidates for Wardens in the other characters' origins. In the Circle Tower, it mentions that recently a young mage had been imprisoned for aiding a Bloodmage, in Dust Town Leske mentions his friend let himself die of starvation, in Orzammar it mentions the third Aeducan scion disappeared in the tunnels, in the Dalish tribe it mentions two young elves were lost, in the Alienage it mentions a tragedy during a recent marriage, and in the Cousland case, it mentions the whole family being exterminated.

In short, Duncan only had time to make a single round.

Add to this the massively low survival rate for the Joining, and frankly pretending that three Warden hopefuls would all survive when you only managed a 1 in 3 and Alistair himself mentions when he was made Warden, the other candidate died horribly... not to mention telling you often all candidates die messily...

Three Wardens is pushing it, sorry. If anything, make NPCs that normally vanish recruitable. Like the Aeducan scion's second (G-something?), or Jowan...

It is maybe pushing it, since Alistair said that in his joining just one person died, not that he was the only survivor. Also, I do not think that the Grey Wardens have that low of a survival rate (Jory was killed for chickening out. We don't know if he would have survived), otherwise they just wouldn't have the numbers to fight the darkspawn, with which the biggest problem is that just injuring them and spraying yourself with their blood kills you in the short or long run, along with their numbers.

The main problem like you said, is how the hell did they meet all at Ostagar if Duncan only had time to make a single round? Hmm...

The one recruited by Duncan should be the mage, since it's only his intervention that saved him from prisony.

The Cousland noble could sneak in and follow his brother at the battlefield, and since Duncan came to the Cousland manor precisely to recruit him in the origins story, it's not a longshot for him to seize the opportunity and ask him to join.

The dwarven noble... That, I have to think about. Gotta re-do the dwaren noble origins story.

 

[SotF]

Actually, he went to the Couslands to recruit the other knight from the origin story (you find that knight dead and tortured in Howes torture chamber, though no comment is made about it even though the human noble should make one)

 

[kelenas]

If your goal is to "solve" the various problems you don't need so many characters, provided you make Alistair or yourself King, or take on a position as Advisor or Prince/ss consort; dealing with the treaties forces you to take note of (and deal with) the various faction's problems and plights one way or another and with one of the aforementioned endings you (or Alistair) are in a position to do something about them.

The problem is that many of the situations aren't clear-cut black and white. The only one where that is the case is the one with the Dalish Elves and the werewolves, where it is pretty clear that releasing the curse is the best for both.

With the mages, you can let them work unchecked and risk blood mages and other maleficar running free, or you can support the Templar's and strangle their personal freedom at the chance of them lashing out.

With the Dwarves, you have the choice between a ruthless dictator who'd drag them into a better future even if they're kicking and screaming, and a benevolent king who'd keep them locked in their conservative caste-system and social isolation.

- Kelenas

 

[SotF]

If your goal is to "solve" the various problems you don't need so many characters, provided you make Alistair or yourself King, or take on a position as Advisor or Prince/ss consort; dealing with the treaties forces you to take note of (and deal with) the various faction's problems and plights one way or another and with one of the aforementioned endings you (or Alistair) are in a position to do something about them.

The problem is that many of the situations aren't clear-cut black and white. The only one where that is the case is the one with the Dalish Elves and the werewolves, where it is pretty clear that releasing the curse is the best for both.

With the mages, you can let them work unchecked and risk blood mages and other maleficar running free, or you can support the Templar's and strangle their personal freedom at the chance of them lashing out.

With the Dwarves, you have the choice between a ruthless dictator who'd drag them into a better future even if they're kicking and screaming, and a benevolent king who'd keep them locked in their conservative caste-system and social isolation.

- Kelenas

There's also the Ashes one which has a definite good option.

Here's the hint, it's not siding with the cult of lunatics...

 

[kelenas]

Yeah, but that one is so overwhelmingly obvious that I don't really count it. Even the situation with the Dalish and the Werewolves is more complicated than that.

- Kelenas

 

[SotF]

Yeah, but that one is so overwhelmingly obvious that I don't really count it. Even the situation with the Dalish and the Werewolves is more complicated than that.

- Kelenas

The only complication is if you want to unlock Reaver...same with Blood Mage

 

[Raven]

If you explore carefully, you do find out what happened to the other candidates for Wardens in the other characters' origins. In the Circle Tower, it mentions that recently a young mage had been imprisoned for aiding a Bloodmage, in Dust Town Leske mentions his friend let himself die of starvation, in Orzammar it mentions the third Aeducan scion disappeared in the tunnels, in the Dalish tribe it mentions two young elves were lost, in the Alienage it mentions a tragedy during a recent marriage, and in the Cousland case, it mentions the whole family being exterminated.

In short, Duncan only had time to make a single round.

Add to this the massively low survival rate for the Joining, and frankly pretending that three Warden hopefuls would all survive when you only managed a 1 in 3 and Alistair himself mentions when he was made Warden, the other candidate died horribly... not to mention telling you often all candidates die messily...

Three Wardens is pushing it, sorry. If anything, make NPCs that normally vanish recruitable. Like the Aeducan scion's second (G-something?), or Jowan...

It isn't a mathematical formula, in that if person survives, the other two have to die. It is more like being poisoned. Whether you survive or not depends more on your constitution and physical state than anything else. If you play through the game, then it is shown that, assuming they get to the Joining, all the possible character choices would survive to become Grey Wardens.

@Meinos- The problem with Cousland is that he/she wouldn't be there for the Joining, he/she would be with his/her brother, where he/she would presumably remain for a while. I suppose you could have the Grey Wardens stumble upon them before or after the battle, but why would Cousland decide to become a Warden? He/she was coerced by Duncan into becoming one in-game, but unless Duncan decides to be an even bigger ass and conscript him/her, there is no reason why it would even come up. More likely, Cousland would just be another party member, like the NPCs.

Then again, that might be better. It seems that there is a bit of awkwardness in letting a Grey Warden become King. Besides the fact that they are supposed to stay clear of politics (which is pretty much ignored in various in-game examples), there is the fact that they only survive for a few decades.

Then again, as far as both Aeducan and Cousland, who says that Duncan is the only Grey Warden making the rounds? For Aeducan, at least, Duncan was there with at least two other guys. What if they went without him, or with someone else?

 

[sith2886]

I was kind of upset that you could save prior to a definitive decision and get both achievements. my ass hat(is that one word or two?) did this and I felt it ruined the desire to play a second or even third time.

then again he's a completest so I shouldn't really be surprised

 

[kelenas]

Yeah, but that one is so overwhelmingly obvious that I don't really count it. Even the situation with the Dalish and the Werewolves is more complicated than that.

- Kelenas

The only complication is if you want to unlock Reaver...same with Blood Mage

As sith said, the possibility to exploit the system with save-unlock-reload undermines that a bit.

As for the story, I think one of the better outcomes for both Ferelden and the Dwarves would be Bhelen on the throne.
He's a ruthless schemer, yes, but so are most Dwarven nobles in general, and under his rule the Dwarves would at least move forward, rather than stagnate.
Allowing the Casteless to fight and improving their standing would strengthen Orzammar as a whole (larger manpower reserves, no more children being abandoned in the Deep Roads), and increased trade with the surface should help both Orzammar and Ferelden.
Throw in some military aid from Ferelden (which Harrowmont would probably be disinclined to request/accept), and Orzammar could actually make some significant and lasting gains against the Darkspawn, rather than just facing them to a standstill.

The problem is that an Aeduncan PC likely wouldn't be too inclined to help the guy who got him exiled, so a Dwarven Commoner might be a better choice, since he'd have larger personal stakes in helping Bhelen.

- Kelenas

 

[SotF]

Yeah, but that one is so overwhelmingly obvious that I don't really count it. Even the situation with the Dalish and the Werewolves is more complicated than that.

- Kelenas

The only complication is if you want to unlock Reaver...same with Blood Mage

As sith said, the possibility to exploit the system with save-unlock-reload undermines that a bit.

As for the story, I think one of the better outcomes for both Ferelden and the Dwarves would be Bhelen on the throne.
He's a ruthless schemer, yes, but so are most Dwarven nobles in general, and under his rule the Dwarves would at least move forward, rather than stagnate.
Allowing the Casteless to fight and improving their standing would strengthen Orzammar as a whole (larger manpower reserves, no more children being abandoned in the Deep Roads), and increased trade with the surface should help both Orzammar and Ferelden.
Throw in some military aid from Ferelden (which Harrowmont would probably be disinclined to request/accept), and Orzammar could actually make some significant and lasting gains against the Darkspawn, rather than just facing them to a standstill.

The problem is that an Aeduncan PC likely wouldn't be too inclined to help the guy who got him exiled, so a Dwarven Commoner might be a better choice, since he'd have larger personal stakes in helping Bhelen.

- Kelenas

Perhaps have both.

Use the female Dwarf Commoner origin and the male noble one.

After all, they don't really need to return to Orzamar in the end, and after everything else involved in that chain, he might not care which side wins.

I mean, Harrowmont is responsible for poisoning people and the entire thing is essentially a half step away from all out war between Bhelen and Harrowmont.

Having him essentially washing his hands of both sides could easily work. Hell, we don't know how the other Dwarven city works at all, only that they really don't like Orzamar due to being abandoned.

Hell, for an ending, how about him forming a new Dwarven city with the Legion of the Dead's survivors (The Legion is almost wiped out according to the Awakening trailer and one of the new characters is one of those survivors who went looking for help).

Imagine the reaction in Orzamar to someone drawing in a lot of the casteless and surface dwarves.

For the save/reload unlocks, yes it works, but it is one with a direct option. Also, siding with the lunatics makes the area easier until you might end up in a brawl with members of your own party.

 

[Ordo]

Well in the æAwakeningÆ expansion you can choose to play as the Orlesian Grey Warden. We can use that by saying more than one Warden was recruiting. We can claim that Duncan picked up the Cousland while the Orlesian picked up the Aeducan. The Surana Elf was picked up by the Orlesian after his/her imprisonment, so the Elf sweats for a little bit but the result is the same.

All right, with four surviving Grey Wardens itÆs time to start considering whose in charge and how they are going to tackle the various missions.

IÆm just going to throw the following ideas for classes out and party make up. The Cousland becomes a Duelist , while the Aeducan becomes a Champion and finally the Surana becomes a Battlemage (awakenings). Now they eventually divide the available party members amongst the three of them and each set off to accomplish missions that seem to suit their talents, background, personality or interest. After which they meet up and compare notes and discuss strategy and long term planning. In a few cases everyone would set off to solve a problem (Landsmeet) but IÆll leave that to the authors discretion.

How I see the teams being divided

Cousland û Duelist
Mabari Warhound
Alister
Morrigan

Surana û Battlemage
Sten
Oghren
Zervran

Aeducan û Champion
Wynn
Shale
Leliana

These are just my thoughts

Edit:

With the Dwarves, you have the choice between a ruthless dictator who'd drag them into a better future even if they're kicking and screaming, and a benevolent king who'd keep them locked in their conservative caste-system and social isolation.

If only that dictator was more like Wrex, then I'd actually feel good about having him drag the Dwarves kicking and screaming into a better future. Ah well, that's what I get for stepping into a 'Dark Fantasy' universe.

 

[ZeroForever]

As noted though the Aeduncan PC can become the king if he choose Harrowmot... so there's no reason not to choose Harrowmot.
The PC Commoner obviously leans with Bhelen cause he's banging your sister and wants marry her.

On the Duncun issue, it's more along the lines of if Duncun didn't choose to make his recruiting rounds in that area the game indicates the PC would have failed as in all of them Duncan 'saves' them.

 

[SotF]

The Orlesian Grey Warden only came to Ferelden after the Blight (I believe that the storyline would be that the "Warden" sacrificed him/herself to end the blight and Alistair asked for the Orlesian Wardens to send someone as he ends up busy as King.

You could have the other Wardens that met up in Orzamar to split up from there on the way back. You at least have Gregoir (The warden who was always drinking according to Alastair be one of those recruiting).

The city elf one would need to be recruited by Duncan, I believe Duncan wasn't really planning on recruiting from there as he was essentially planning to stop for the night and to grab supplies, he went to the Alienage because one of his friends lived there.

 

[Meinos Kaen]

Well in the æAwakeningÆ expansion you can choose to play as the Orlesian Grey Warden. We can use that by saying more than one Warden was recruiting. We can claim that Duncan picked up the Cousland while the Orlesian picked up the Aeducan. The Surana Elf was picked up by the Orlesian after his/her imprisonment, so the Elf sweats for a little bit but the result is the same.

All right, with four surviving Grey Wardens itÆs time to start considering whose in charge and how they are going to tackle the various missions.

IÆm just going to throw the following ideas for classes out and party make up. The Cousland becomes a Duelist , while the Aeducan becomes a Champion and finally the Surana becomes a Battlemage (awakenings). Now they eventually divide the available party members amongst the three of them and each set off to accomplish missions that seem to suit their talents, background, personality or interest. After which they meet up and compare notes and discuss strategy and long term planning. In a few cases everyone would set off to solve a problem (Landsmeet) but IÆll leave that to the authors discretion.

How I see the teams being divided

Cousland û Duelist
Mabari Warhound
Alister
Morrigan

Surana û Battlemage
Sten
Oghren
Zervran

Aeducan û Champion
Wynn
Shale
Leliana

These are just my thoughts

Edit:

With the Dwarves, you have the choice between a ruthless dictator who'd drag them into a better future even if they're kicking and screaming, and a benevolent king who'd keep them locked in their conservative caste-system and social isolation.

If only that dictator was more like Wrex, then I'd actually feel good about having him drag the Dwarves kicking and screaming into a better future. Ah well, that's what I get for stepping into a 'Dark Fantasy' universe.

This is another idea. Also, it could be done like this.

The main character stays the cousland noble. Then, along the way, he picks up the other two as he goes on his missions for the treaties. The reasons for the two to still be there to be found are simple.

For the mage, it's simple. They had to move him/her to the mage prison mentioned in the origin, but before they could do so, while they were holding him in the tower, the whole Uldred affair happens, leaving the templars unable to transfer him. Thus, when they come to the tower, the noble proposes to free him so that he can help.

For the dwarven, I need to research since I mostly skipped the intros. they were for achievements, you know. lol

 

[kelenas]

If only that dictator was more like Wrex, then I'd actually feel good about having him drag the Dwarves kicking and screaming into a better future. Ah well, that's what I get for stepping into a 'Dark Fantasy' universe.

Bhelen might be no Wrex, but Dwarves aren't exactly Krogans, either - too few head-butts, for one.

And without a dictator, I don't see any rapid changes in their society, which is what they need, in my opinion; otherwise, there's a good chance that they'll have a good amount of civil unrest - if not outright war - on their hands some time down the line, which could leave them as easy pray for the Darkspawn.

I don't think an Aeduncan PC would change that; either he rules more or less like his brother Bhelen, or he risks that his reforms get blocked or undermined by conservative Nobles, Warriors and Craftsmen.

Siphoning off the Casteless and Topsider-Dwarves into a new city is far easier said than done; in the best case I could see the Dwarven PC recruiting them for an outpost of the Grey Wardens in the Deep Roads (though not as Wardens themselves), or maybe founding an order/mercenary group not unlike the Legions of the Dead, where everyone can serve to battle Darkspawn regardless of caste.

Speaking of the PCs; which ones, do you figure, have actually a decent chance to survive by themselves without Duncan's help?

- The Mage has a chance to get away with (comparatively) minor punishment (if not entirely scott-free), provided you assume that s/he worked with Jowan on Irvine's orders.

- The Human Noble was already at the escape-tunnel when Duncan showed up, and with some help from his Mabari could have a good chance to escape from Howe's men, especially with Lady Cousland holding them back.

The others, though, seem to depend on Duncan quite heavily; the Dalish would have succumbed to the Taint if Duncan hadn't brought him back to camp, the City Elf and Dwarven Commoner would've ended up executed or in a Dungeon without Duncan's conscription, and the Dwarven Noble would probably die in the Deep Roads.

The City Elf and/or Dwarven Commoner might be viable without Duncan if they either escape, or are recruited, out of Prison.
The Dwarf Noble might have a chance if he stumbles over the group of Wardens that were apparently in the tunnels (Duncan had, IIRC, two or three people with him when you found him in that Origin story).
The Dalish seems to have the least chances without Duncan's presence; no one from his tribe knows about the cave, and probably wouldn't be able to diagnose the Darkspawn taint in him even if they found him.

- Kelenas

 

[SotF]

If only that dictator was more like Wrex, then I'd actually feel good about having him drag the Dwarves kicking and screaming into a better future. Ah well, that's what I get for stepping into a 'Dark Fantasy' universe.

Bhelen might be no Wrex, but Dwarves aren't exactly Krogans, either - too few head-butts, for one.

Considering the note you can find, there is a dwarven analogue of Shepard who hates elevators...

 

[GenocideHeart]

Also, I do not think that the Grey Wardens have that low of a survival rate (Jory was killed for chickening out. We don't know if he would have survived), otherwise they just wouldn't have the numbers to fight the darkspawn, with which the biggest problem is that just injuring them and spraying yourself with their blood kills you in the short or long run, along with their numbers.

Uh. Duncan HIMSELF tells you that he had to ask Cailan for help because the Grey Warden's numbers are too low. So yes, their mortality rate is that damn high, in no small part because once you do the Joining, your lifespan is MASSIVELY CUT (you'll rarely live past 30/35). Another nice side effect that Duncan conveniently forgot to mention.

And Jory didn't chicken out. He was OK with risking his life fighting the Darkspawn, just not with dying meaninglessly, especially since he would leave a pregnant wife behind.

He even spells it out for you at least twice - first he says he was feeling antsy because he'd never found an enemy he couldn't at least fight with his blade, and then during the Joining he specifically mentions 'not like this...'.

Which frankly I can understand - the whole goddamn camp is littered with examples of people dying horribly from poisoned Darkspawn blood. What did Duncan expect from a brave, but simple man like Jory? If he wanted self sacrifice he should've recruited more Templars. They are the 'We will die in the name of the Maker' meatheads.

With the mages, you can let them work unchecked and risk blood mages and other maleficar running free, or you can support the Templar's and strangle their personal freedom at the chance of them lashing out.

The interesting thing is that most demons don't really want to HURT humans, they just want to experience life the way humans feel it. It's entirely possible to be possessed by a 'demon' and be fine, as Wynne pointedly proves - she's technically an abomination, but she and the demon within get along just fine.

The Desire Demons are another category who'd get along with humans just fine if allowed to. While they can be pretty mean, for the most part they just want to experience the pleasures of the flesh, and it's the frustration coming with being unable to do so that makes them hostile.

Sloth demons for the most part hate conflict, as the one in the Fade points out. If they feel it worth the hassle, they will fight, otherwise they'll back off and mind their own business.

Pride demons and rage demons are really the only ones who hurt people purely for fun.

Also, blood magic isn't necessarily evil per se. It's how you use it that counts, like all power. It has potential to be abused, but so does conventional magic.

There's also the Ashes one which has a definite good option.

Here's the hint, it's not siding with the cult of lunatics...

I wouldn't be so sure. The cult of lunatics at least thinks with their own heads instead of being sheep brainwashed by the damn Chantry with their Maker mumbo-jumbo. I tend to be automatically hostile to any religion whose clergy forcefully shoves their beliefs down your throat. And the Chantry definitely applies, so I don't see how making them mad by showing them exactly what you think of their hogwash they keep forcefeeding you would count as evil. Vengeful, maybe, but evil? When they lobotomize mages based on the CHANCE they could go bad?

Also, regarding the Orlesian Warden... there's at least one more Warden around in Ferelden if you play DA: Journeys. But she's pretty much stuck in Orzammar (she's at the end of her tainted lifespan), so she'd be of limited use, especially since she usually hangs around the mid- and low-quarters, and can't even get an audience with the King, meaning she has zero influence.

Having that many surviving Wardens (especially given how Loghain can become one too) just feels awkward. It defeats the purpose of the whole 'last of the Wardens must rally the world' adventure DA set up.

 

[SotF]

Also, I do not think that the Grey Wardens have that low of a survival rate (Jory was killed for chickening out. We don't know if he would have survived), otherwise they just wouldn't have the numbers to fight the darkspawn, with which the biggest problem is that just injuring them and spraying yourself with their blood kills you in the short or long run, along with their numbers.

Uh. Duncan HIMSELF tells you that he had to ask Cailan for help because the Grey Warden's numbers are too low. So yes, their mortality rate is that damn high, in no small part because once you do the Joining, your lifespan is MASSIVELY CUT (you'll rarely live past 30/35). Another nice side effect that Duncan conveniently forgot to mention.

And Jory didn't chicken out. He was OK with risking his life fighting the Darkspawn, just not with dying meaninglessly, especially since he would leave a pregnant wife behind.

He even spells it out for you at least twice - first he says he was feeling antsy because he'd never found an enemy he couldn't at least fight with his blade, and then during the Joining he specifically mentions 'not like this...'.

Which frankly I can understand - the whole goddamn camp is littered with examples of people dying horribly from poisoned Darkspawn blood. What did Duncan expect from a brave, but simple man like Jory? If he wanted self sacrifice he should've recruited more Templars. They are the 'We will die in the name of the Maker' meatheads.

With the mages, you can let them work unchecked and risk blood mages and other maleficar running free, or you can support the Templar's and strangle their personal freedom at the chance of them lashing out.

The interesting thing is that most demons don't really want to HURT humans, they just want to experience life the way humans feel it. It's entirely possible to be possessed by a 'demon' and be fine, as Wynne pointedly proves - she's technically an abomination, but she and the demon within get along just fine.

The Desire Demons are another category who'd get along with humans just fine if allowed to. While they can be pretty mean, for the most part they just want to experience the pleasures of the flesh, and it's the frustration coming with being unable to do so that makes them hostile.

Sloth demons for the most part hate conflict, as the one in the Fade points out. If they feel it worth the hassle, they will fight, otherwise they'll back off and mind their own business.

Pride demons and rage demons are really the only ones who hurt people purely for fun.

Also, blood magic isn't necessarily evil per se. It's how you use it that counts, like all power. It has potential to be abused, but so does conventional magic.

There's also the Ashes one which has a definite good option.

Here's the hint, it's not siding with the cult of lunatics...

I wouldn't be so sure. The cult of lunatics at least thinks with their own heads instead of being sheep brainwashed by the damn Chantry with their Maker mumbo-jumbo. I tend to be automatically hostile to any religion whose clergy forcefully shoves their beliefs down your throat. And the Chantry definitely applies, so I don't see how making them mad by showing them exactly what you think of their hogwash they keep forcefeeding you would count as evil. Vengeful, maybe, but evil? When they lobotomize mages based on the CHANCE they could go bad?

Also, regarding the Orlesian Warden... there's at least one more Warden around in Ferelden if you play DA: Journeys. But she's pretty much stuck in Orzammar (she's at the end of her tainted lifespan), so she'd be of limited use, especially since she usually hangs around the mid- and low-quarters, and can't even get an audience with the King, meaning she has zero influence.

Having that many surviving Wardens (especially given how Loghain can become one too) just feels awkward. It defeats the purpose of the whole 'last of the Wardens must rally the world' adventure DA set up.

Journeys isn't set at the same time as Origins, it's a while earlier in the timeline. Martine was at that point where she was trying to get herself killed in the deep roads as well, that kind of implies she's dead soon unless we can get more on that point

 

[Meinos Kaen]

Also, I do not think that the Grey Wardens have that low of a survival rate (Jory was killed for chickening out. We don't know if he would have survived), otherwise they just wouldn't have the numbers to fight the darkspawn, with which the biggest problem is that just injuring them and spraying yourself with their blood kills you in the short or long run, along with their numbers.

Uh. Duncan HIMSELF tells you that he had to ask Cailan for help because the Grey Warden's numbers are too low. So yes, their mortality rate is that damn high, in no small part because once you do the Joining, your lifespan is MASSIVELY CUT (you'll rarely live past 30/35). Another nice side effect that Duncan conveniently forgot to mention.

And Jory didn't chicken out. He was OK with risking his life fighting the Darkspawn, just not with dying meaninglessly, especially since he would leave a pregnant wife behind.

He even spells it out for you at least twice - first he says he was feeling antsy because he'd never found an enemy he couldn't at least fight with his blade, and then during the Joining he specifically mentions 'not like this...'.

Which frankly I can understand - the whole goddamn camp is littered with examples of people dying horribly from poisoned Darkspawn blood. What did Duncan expect from a brave, but simple man like Jory? If he wanted self sacrifice he should've recruited more Templars. They are the 'We will die in the name of the Maker' meatheads.

With the mages, you can let them work unchecked and risk blood mages and other maleficar running free, or you can support the Templar's and strangle their personal freedom at the chance of them lashing out.

The interesting thing is that most demons don't really want to HURT humans, they just want to experience life the way humans feel it. It's entirely possible to be possessed by a 'demon' and be fine, as Wynne pointedly proves - she's technically an abomination, but she and the demon within get along just fine.

The Desire Demons are another category who'd get along with humans just fine if allowed to. While they can be pretty mean, for the most part they just want to experience the pleasures of the flesh, and it's the frustration coming with being unable to do so that makes them hostile.

Sloth demons for the most part hate conflict, as the one in the Fade points out. If they feel it worth the hassle, they will fight, otherwise they'll back off and mind their own business.

Pride demons and rage demons are really the only ones who hurt people purely for fun.

Also, blood magic isn't necessarily evil per se. It's how you use it that counts, like all power. It has potential to be abused, but so does conventional magic.

There's also the Ashes one which has a definite good option.

Here's the hint, it's not siding with the cult of lunatics...

I wouldn't be so sure. The cult of lunatics at least thinks with their own heads instead of being sheep brainwashed by the damn Chantry with their Maker mumbo-jumbo. I tend to be automatically hostile to any religion whose clergy forcefully shoves their beliefs down your throat. And the Chantry definitely applies, so I don't see how making them mad by showing them exactly what you think of their hogwash they keep forcefeeding you would count as evil. Vengeful, maybe, but evil? When they lobotomize mages based on the CHANCE they could go bad?

Also, regarding the Orlesian Warden... there's at least one more Warden around in Ferelden if you play DA: Journeys. But she's pretty much stuck in Orzammar (she's at the end of her tainted lifespan), so she'd be of limited use, especially since she usually hangs around the mid- and low-quarters, and can't even get an audience with the King, meaning she has zero influence.

Having that many surviving Wardens (especially given how Loghain can become one too) just feels awkward. It defeats the purpose of the whole 'last of the Wardens must rally the world' adventure DA set up.

Their numbers are low in Ferelden because they had been exiled for 200 years and just recently got allowed return in the reign from King Maric. Another proof that the mortality isn't that high to make them an elite is the fact that the first blight has been stopped basically by ONLY Grey Wardens. Duncan himself states that 'the world was on the verge of exstintion.' Then they thinned down, yes, which prooves the necessity of the treaties, but because of the shortened lifespan, which is another matter altogether. I'm talking of the mortality rate of the joining. Also, I'm not saying is not unusual, but I'm saying that it's not IMPOSSIBLE to have three grey wardens coming out of the same joining.

 

[kelenas]

Uh. Duncan HIMSELF tells you that he had to ask Cailan for help because the Grey Warden's numbers are too low. So yes, their mortality rate is that damn high, in no small part because once you do the Joining, your lifespan is MASSIVELY CUT (you'll rarely live past 30/35). Another nice side effect that Duncan conveniently forgot to mention.

The number of Grey Wardens in Ferelden is low because they had been exiled from the country for plotting against the King at one point in the past, and only recently has this exile been rescinded - the Warden's Keep DLC goes a bit more into detail about this.

From what is mentioned or shown in the game, the mortality rate for the joining seems about 50%; in your joining, one from two survives, and from Alistairs, we know of one (unnamed) dead and one survivor - the exact number of recruits at Alistairs' isn't mentioned, IIRC.

If you count in Loghaine, this figure would rise over 50% (three survivors vs. two dead), although cases like Ser Jory might distort that number, depending on how you count them (he died during the joining, but not because he drank the Darkspawn blood).

The interesting thing is that most demons don't really want to HURT humans, they just want to experience life the way humans feel it. It's entirely possible to be possessed by a 'demon' and be fine, as Wynne pointedly proves - she's technically an abomination, but she and the demon within get along just fine.

The Desire Demons are another category who'd get along with humans just fine if allowed to. While they can be pretty mean, for the most part they just want to experience the pleasures of the flesh, and it's the frustration coming with being unable to do so that makes them hostile.

Sloth demons for the most part hate conflict, as the one in the Fade points out. If they feel it worth the hassle, they will fight, otherwise they'll back off and mind their own business.

Pride demons and rage demons are really the only ones who hurt people purely for fun.

Also, blood magic isn't necessarily evil per se. It's how you use it that counts, like all power. It has potential to be abused, but so does conventional magic.

The spirit that empowers Wynne is apparently a very rare example of a benevolent Fade-entity; IIRC she even points this out to you when you talk about this with her.

Desire and Sloth Demons might not be automatically as hostile as Rage or Hunger Demons, but I think the game makes it pretty clear that they are far from benevolent; at best, they seem to have a complete disregard for human life or free will.
If they can get someone to cooperate with them, that's fine (and they aren't above lying to get that cooperation, or breaking their word once they have what they want, as the Demon in Honnleath shows), otherwise they're just as willing to take it by force.
Co-existence might not be infeasible, but I doubt it would be possible beyond a (very careful) case-by-case basis.

Regarding Blood Magic, though, I agree; it's not evil, per se, and the Chantry might not even mind it much, if it wasn't for two factors;
1) Blood Magic allows mind control. So a Templar might report that "Everything is as it should be." because it's the truth, or because the Blood Mage controlling him ordered him to make such a report.
2) The boost in power is apparently huge; Jowan, a mere apprentice, managed to knock out an entire room full of Templars and Mages, including the First Enchanter and the Templar's Commander, with a single spell. Even if he was drained afterwards, that's still pretty impressive, especially since he only "dabbled a bit" in Blood Magic.

So, while it isn't necessarily evil, it is definitely very dangerous, and I think it's actually quite understandable that it's forbidden; a normal Mage who abuses his power is dangerous already - a Blood Mage who does so is several magnitudes worse.

- Kelenas

 

[GenocideHeart]

It is specifically mentioned in the game that Grey Warden numbers worldwide are low. Ferelden just has it decidedly worse than other regions because:

1) Grey Wardens are still eyed suspiciously due to that whole exile thing, even though King Maric allowed them back in and Cailan is obviously fond of him - the general attitude of the soldiers in the King's camp seems to be one of 'we tolerate your kind, but stay out of our way'.

2) Grey Wardens also, as Jory proves, are unhealthily obsessed with keeping secrecy over their whole trade, which not only increases distrust (more than a few people in the game comment how Grey Wardens are elusive and sort of creepy) and further decreases potential recruits outside of conscription, which can't be abused at the moment, but also cuts down the potential recruits who may back off at the last minute, as Duncan so brightly proved - never mind he was ranting not a few minutes earlier about how the Grey Warden were understaffed period, so even someone not a GW would have been useful as an extra sword, and Jory proved his competence in battle with you...

However you look at it, mortality is high and numbers are low. The fact Grey Wardens actively hunt down Darkspawn, which further reduces their life expectancy as you can imagine, does NOT help. Dwarves, who have been dealing with Darkspawn their whole existence, barely can contain them and take massive casualties, despite being also naturally immune to Emissaries' magic which gives them an advantage over surface dwellers - do Wardens seriously expect to be much better off? Especially since the only real advantages Darkspawn blood gives are immunity to Taint and ability to feel their presence, which means squat if they outnumber you 10 to 1 as they normally do?

In the end, Morrigan does more to stop the Archdemon and keep you all alive than the Warden does. It has a price, but it gets you ALL out in one piece, which is more than what I can say when you refuse her help. So yeah...

 

[Meinos Kaen]

It is specifically mentioned in the game that Grey Warden numbers worldwide are low. Ferelden just has it decidedly worse than other regions because:

1) Grey Wardens are still eyed suspiciously due to that whole exile thing, even though King Maric allowed them back in and Cailan is obviously fond of him - the general attitude of the soldiers in the King's camp seems to be one of 'we tolerate your kind, but stay out of our way'.

2) Grey Wardens also, as Jory proves, are unhealthily obsessed with keeping secrecy over their whole trade, which not only increases distrust (more than a few people in the game comment how Grey Wardens are elusive and sort of creepy) and further decreases potential recruits outside of conscription, which can't be abused at the moment, but also cuts down the potential recruits who may back off at the last minute, as Duncan so brightly proved - never mind he was ranting not a few minutes earlier about how the Grey Warden were understaffed period, so even someone not a GW would have been useful as an extra sword, and Jory proved his competence in battle with you...

However you look at it, mortality is high and numbers are low. The fact Grey Wardens actively hunt down Darkspawn, which further reduces their life expectancy as you can imagine, does NOT help. Dwarves, who have been dealing with Darkspawn their whole existence, barely can contain them and take massive casualties, despite being also naturally immune to Emissaries' magic which gives them an advantage over surface dwellers - do Wardens seriously expect to be much better off? Especially since the only real advantages Darkspawn blood gives are immunity to Taint and ability to feel their presence, which means squat if they outnumber you 10 to 1 as they normally do?

In the end, Morrigan does more to stop the Archdemon and keep you all alive than the Warden does. It has a price, but it gets you ALL out in one piece, which is more than what I can say when you refuse her help. So yeah...

So, basically plothole. :huh: I was quite off with drinking darkspawn blood at the beginning... But in the end, it's not like they can do anything without Grey Wardens, hn? I mean, if it's not a Grey Warden dealing the killing blow to the archdemon, it never ends. Big fucking sacrifice, but I guess that if they opened up their secrets, they would have even less recruits.

Edit: Oh, well. I'll see if I can make work the fact of having most origins characters all together.

 

[kelenas]

While you're right that the Grey Wardens (or rather, their secrecy) is viewed viewed with some distrust, you seem to forget that they are also viewed with a great deal of awe and held in high esteem; more than one NPC (including Jory) comments that it is quite a high honour to even meet a Warden, not to mention being recruited into their order; this is most pronounced with the Dwarves, who even hold a Proving in Duncan's honour, but even the Dalish, who aren't exactly on the best terms with humans, receive Duncan as a guest and treat him politely. Generally, Duncan seems to know a boatload of important people - the First Enchanter, two Kings, elvish community leaders, various nobles - and all of them receive him with quite a bit of respect. A bit too many to write all of them off as personal friendships.

From the impression I got in-game, the reason for the Grey Warden's numbers lies with their recruitment strategy. The Grey Wardens are looking for extraordinary recruits with the potential to slay Archdemons, not for meaningless cannon-fodder to throw at the horde; that makes more sense to me than your idea of a "massively low survival rate for the Joining".

In fact, Grey Warden's chances to survive their joining (>50%) are possibly better than those of common soldiers chances to survive Darkspawn taint by a good margin.

So, to come back to the original question; three out of five recruits surviving the Joining isn't really pushing it, but actually matches the survival rate shown/mentioned in-game quite well.

And if he wants to play up the lethality of the Joining, Meinos can always throw in one or two more characters who take part in the Ritual and sucumb to the Darkspawn blood.

- Kelenas