Dragon Age: Origins

Meinos Kaen

Well-Known Member
#26
Well, leaving the becoming Grey Wardens alone, the main point is: who has the chance of going through their origins' story without Duncan's help?

Human Noble: He was at the secret passage when Duncan showed up, along with his own personal mabari hound. I trust that he could have gotten away from there without many problems. As to why he would head to Ostagar? That's where his brother and most importantly the king is. His whole family has just been murdered, he would demand justice.

Human/Elven Circle Mage: If acting along with Irving's plans, the mage can get away relatively with a light sentence, even to Gregoir's insisting. He can still be imprisoned for a time, but I'd say in the tower, not in the mages' prison of the templars.

City Elf: Without Duncan, the elf would die or be kept in the Bann's dungeon prisoner, like Soris if the warden is not a city elf who took the blame on himself.

Dalish Elf: Dead, dead, dead. Without Duncan, death is all that awaits the Dalish Elf origins character. Becoming a grey warden is his only chance to survive, as ironic as that can be.

Dwarven Noble: His sentence has been exile in the deeproads, that is a 99% damnation to either insanity or death... 99% because we've seen in-game people who have survived in them long enough. Would be a shocker ending for that quest. Bhelen and Harrowmont fight and fight, and: ta'da. The Warden comes back with the dwarven noble in tow.

Dwarven Commoner: His sentence was between death at the ends of his boss's colleague or exile from Orzammar's laws. If I were him, I would gladly choose exile. Gorim is seen in-game married and a merchant in Denerim after the exile, after all. That spells survival for me.


Now, follow me here. We see in the dwarven noble origin that Ducan has not travelled to Orzammar alone, but he has travelled there with the other grey wardens. That probably means that he reputes that visit most important. So, I think it can go like this.

Duncan goes to Orzammar, and like in the Dwarven Noble Origins, he saves him, or he can be found during the deep roads quest, while the dwarven commoner gets exiled, to be found again later on in the game, somewhere else, or he can be removed entirely.

Now, both the Circle Tower and the Brecilian forests are on the way back to Ostagar from Orzammar. If he was trying to recruit allies, it would make sense for Duncan to stop at the tower on the way back. There he can also use the rite of conscription to save the circle mage (personally, I didn't tell Irvin shit about the plan. So, that means that maximum penance was in order).

Also to tie the mage character with the Denerim situation, makes sense making him an elven from the alienage, maybe Shianni's and Soris' cousin, having received notice before his Harrowing of Soris' wedding (or are circle mages prohibited from doing that? Keeping in touch with their families). The chantry has no control over the dalish, so it makes sense for an elven mage to come from the alienage.

About the dalish, Duncan seemed to have made a detour just to warn them to leave the southern part of the woods, since they could be soon overrun with darkspawn. Again, it's on the way. That makes him able to collect the tainted dalish elf to join.


So, the idea sounds better like this. Duncan goes to the Circle Tower and comes back with an elven mage from the alienage. On the way there, he also picks up the dalish. In the meanwhile, the human noble has survived and has arrived to the camp, requesting justice from king Cailan. There, they meet. Regarding the human noble, Duncan is choosing their guard captain more like a second choice to the Cousland, so he may or may not ask him to go through the joining as well. He would have no reason to do so, though... Well, that can be worked in, actually. With the quest of the keneel master.

Let's say that on the way there, the dog got tainted with darkspawn blood. Being his last friend at the moment, the noble asks to follow the warden's candidates to find the flowers to cure him. They say yes, they say no, he goes in, and he gets tainted as well, cue him being in the same boat as the dalish, and as such, having to go through the joining to survive.

How does it sound so far?
 

blackkyuubi

Well-Known Member
#27
Kind of off topic but Im pissed right now, I finally buy Dragon Age for the Xbox, one because I got one, two so I can get the armor in Mass effect 2. I put it in, put in the code, get the prompt to download........ and get a 800700e8 error..... for three hours straight....................................


*I am a yankees fan I just couldn't find something right now. <_<
 

kelenas

Well-Known Member
#28
Actually, traveling from Orzammar to the Circle Tower, and from there to the Brecilian Forest is quite a detour; almost through the entire Kingdom, and Duncan might not have the time for that.
The fastest route would be from Orzammar to Redcliff using the road on the western lakeshore, then Lotheringen, then Ostagar.
IIRC, though, the Dalish Elfs tribe isn't the same as the one in the Brecilian Forest, so Duncan could've met the someplace else, where he doesn't have to make such a large detour.

Now, as for the characters;
Regarding their chances of survival sans Duncan I wrote a post earlier, with pretty much the same conclusions as you.

The Dwarven Noble is completely irrelevant in the struggle for the dwarven throne; he's been exiled, not lost, and if he returns (without being a GW), chances are he'll get either executed or exiled (again). Harrowmont might be willing to rescind the sentence, but given how conservative the guy is, I very much doubt that, even if you have any evidence.

Mages are usually taken from their families at a very young age, so there's a good chance they don't remember much (if anything) from their former home. I honestly don't know if they're forbidden from contact with their families, but I definitely wouldn't put it past the Chantry/Circle.

The idea to get the Human Noble into the GW seems a tad over-complicated to me. I think it would be more straight-forward if Duncan ran into the Cousland either in the camp at Ostagar (possibly when they meet the King), or on the way there, and, upon hearing the HN's story, decides that he'd make a welcome addition to the Warden recruits.

One thing you should definitely avoid is turning the entire Origins-cast into goody-two-shoes; most of the origin-stories encourage a rather harsh and self-serving outlook on life. While I usually like that most of your stories (at least the Naruto-centric ones I read) tend to be rather lighthearted and humorous, in this case it would clash rather severely withe gritty setting.

- Kelenas
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#29
kelenas said:
So, to come back to the original question; three out of five recruits surviving the Joining isn't really pushing it, but actually matches the survival rate shown/mentioned in-game quite well.
Three out of SIX. I'm, unwilling to discount Jory, because frankly, if the answer of a Warden to a potential getting cold feet is to gut them, then things are decidedly not looking good.

Even the bravest person gets cold feet when faced with the kind of death Darkspawn blood poisoning gives, it's only a natural instinct. I highly doubt that people in previous Joinings never got cold feet, so between those who don't make it and those who simply get killed to 'defend the secret', I'm willing to bet the actual survival rate of a hopeful is more in the 50% or worse neighborhood than over 50%. Mortality rate during the Joining isn't just from the blood killing you, which is something all of you seem to forget. And Duncan was implied to be one of the nicer Wardens... if that's what a Warden willing to talk things over is like, I don't want to see what the ruthless ones do.

And if he wants to play up the lethality of the Joining, Meinos can always throw in one or two more characters who take part in the Ritual and sucumb to the Darkspawn blood.
Aside from the fact that throwing in extra characters just for the sake of plot is a bad idea, I really don't see why you can't simply keep it at a single Warden from the origins and the rest being non-Warden party members.

For one thing, Wardens are explicitly required to leave behind their past life, so I really fail to see where they get to do anything for their former home besides possibly revenge for what happened to them - even the Dwarf Noble would only survive for a couple decades at best after Harrowmont dies, so that'd be too short a reign to get a damn thing done, thank you shortened lifespan. So to tie up things in Orzammar efficiently, you HAVE to either let Bhelen be an enlightened tyrant or NOT have the Dwarf Noble be a Warden (as that'd kill any chances of him making a difference by making him die way too soon).

Secondly, you already have at least a couple potential party members who can tie up loose ends nicely - Oghren is the (admittedly estranged) husband of a Paragon, and that would, if only he stopped being a drunk bastard for five minutes, give him a LOT of influence in Orzammar, because for all that Branka is an evil whore, she's still a Paragon, and thus held in the utmost regard in Dwarven society.

I mean, if just being the sponsor of a casteless girl who spawns a noble's brat can give a thug like Beraht high status, I'm pretty sure being the husband of a fucking national hero is going to allow him some considerable weight... that is, so long as he's trained to not bite. :p

And of course, Wynne can help with the Elves, as despite not being an elf, she expresses deep sympathy for their plight and wishes she could do something about it. Just make her act on those impulses.

Also, you'll probably want to leave a few of the default party members out. Even just six characters would be hard to handle, let alone 12+. You'll lose your mind keeping track of everyone's actions, trust me.
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#30
One more thing.

Dwarven Commoner: His sentence was between death at the ends of his boss's colleague or exile from Orzammar's laws. If I were him, I would gladly choose exile. Gorim is seen in-game married and a merchant in Denerim after the exile, after all. That spells survival for me.
His sentence would have been death regardless. When he gets caught outside Beraht's place, the Proving Grounds master explicitly states that defiling the Proving Grounds is a crime punished by execution. That's overlooking everything ELSE the Dwarf casteless did (remember, casteless - sentences against them are always extra harsh, especially if they incurred the wrath of higher classes, and the commoner made fools of the whole Warrior class).
 

kelenas

Well-Known Member
#31
The problem with Jory's is that it is the only such situation we encounter in-game, which makes any assumption about Warden policy in such cases guesswork at best.

If killing reluctant recruits is standard policy, then those deaths have to be counted, yes. Or maybe the standard policy is to force recruits to drink the Darkspawn blood whether they want or not, and Duncan's act was one of kindness; giving Jory a relatively quick and clean death, rather than forcing the man to do something that obviously terrified him.

The point is that we can't say for sure, since we only have that single example. That is the reason I don't take Jory into consideration.

As for the number of characters, I personally agree that using so many will be complicated, but it seems like Meinos wants several of the Origin characters in the story.

Can't say I blame him, in all honesty; most of the Origin stories lay some interesting groundwork, and some could actually be used as a game plot by themselves; the Human Noble avenging the murder of his family, or the Dwarven Noble clearing his name and reclaiming the throne, for example.

- Kelenas
 
#32
A few points:

1) The Dalish Origin occurs in the Brecilian Forests, it's explicitly cited in the introdution. Frankly, the Brecilian is far larger than the part explored during the Nature of the Beast Quest, and it probably has a lot more Dalish tribes moving around there.

2) If Duncan recruits at Orzammer (and considered the experience of Dwarves fighting the Darkspawns, it makes a lot of sense), it makes little sense outside narrative reasons for the Casteless Dwarf not been recruited by Duncan, who was impressed by him. Both the Dwarven Casteless and Noble Origins fit in the same timetable, and Duncan could easy recruit boths (or only the Casteless, if the exiled Aeduncan is unluck and miss them at the Deep Road).

Looking at the map, the best rote from Orzammer to Ostagar would be either:
Orzammer => Redcliffe => Ostagar;
Orzammer => Circle Tower (by boat) => Lake Calenhad Docks => Ostagar (down the North Road, then taking the West Road and south through The Imperial Way); or
Orzammer => Circle Tower (by ship) => Redcliffe Village => Ostagar (through The Imperial Way)

So it's quite logical and likely to have the Castless, Noble Dwarf and the Mage as recruits - and quite possible to have one of them die at the Joining, if one thinks it too many Wardens, as well as for dramatic reasons.

3) Going from Delerim to Ostagar through the West Road (which is the best way, at least by the map), some points of the way are not far from the Brecilian Forests, so it's not unlikely that Duncan would make a quick detour to warn Keeper Marethari about the Blight, and end up with both a City Elf and a Dalish Elf recruits.

4) From Castle Cousland at Highever to Ostagar, the best way it also east through the North Road until the West Road, passing Lake Calenhad Docks on the way. This results in both Noble Human and Mage Wardens, and one of the easiest to explain, as the time lost with the detour to the Circle Tower is easily compensed by taking a ship to Redcliffe Village and continuing through the Imperial Way.

A slightly longer travel would be going west the North Road until Delerim (and recruiting the City Elf Warden) and then taking the West Road down to the Imperial Way, possible recruiting the Dalish Warden in the way. This can result in a Human Noble, the City Elf and the Dalish Elf Warden, but considering the urgency of both the Blight and the Cousland's Revenge, it's extremelly unlikely.

5) Even if you have a lot of Wardens survive the Joining, many could easily die later. I find it unlikely that either King or Duncan would simply send a small contigent of Wardens to such a simply task of lighting a beacon...
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#33
The problem with Jory's is that it is the only such situation we encounter in-game, which makes any assumption about Warden policy in such cases guesswork at best.
Alistair explicitly says that Wardens do WHATEVER IT TAKES to stop Blights. Even things that would be unpleasant or outright immoral to normal people.

So, uh, my assumption is based on pretty good groundwork, since the game beats you in the face with 'MUST STOP BLIGHT RAR EVEN IF IT MEANS CAUSING INNOCENT DEATHS' at every turn. Hell, most of the choices you must make to recruit help are grey at best, with some literally being 'pick your poison' bad, like for instance the Orzammar one where no matter who you side with, both have some massive bad points about them (Bhelen, because, well, it's Bhelen, and Harrowmont because his spinelessness makes things worse).

The Anvil of the Void also has some questionable choices. Branka is undeniably the most evil of the two, but the alternative isn't much better...

Also, Duncan didn't quite kill Jory out of goodness. If you interrogate him about it later, he all but states he did it because he can't afford anyone knowing about the secrets of the Wardens without being one, implying that, apparently, forcefully cramming said blood down one's throat isn't the standard procedure. That, and the fact he wasn't phased in the slightest by having to do it and acted as if he'd done it before. He even comments he took no pleasure in slaying him, but it "had to be done". So Yeah.
 

Meinos Kaen

Well-Known Member
#34
GenocideHeart said:
The problem with Jory's is that it is the only such situation we encounter in-game, which makes any assumption about Warden policy in such cases guesswork at best.
Alistair explicitly says that Wardens do WHATEVER IT TAKES to stop Blights. Even things that would be unpleasant or outright immoral to normal people.

So, uh, my assumption is based on pretty good groundwork, since the game beats you in the face with 'MUST STOP BLIGHT RAR EVEN IF IT MEANS CAUSING INNOCENT DEATHS' at every turn. Hell, most of the choices you must make to recruit help are grey at best, with some literally being 'pick your poison' bad, like for instance the Orzammar one where no matter who you side with, both have some massive bad points about them (Bhelen, because, well, it's Bhelen, and Harrowmont because his spinelessness makes things worse).

The Anvil of the Void also has some questionable choices. Branka is undeniably the most evil of the two, but the alternative isn't much better...

Also, Duncan didn't quite kill Jory out of goodness. If you interrogate him about it later, he all but states he did it because he can't afford anyone knowing about the secrets of the Wardens without being one, implying that, apparently, forcefully cramming said blood down one's throat isn't the standard procedure. That, and the fact he wasn't phased in the slightest by having to do it and acted as if he'd done it before. He even comments he took no pleasure in slaying him, but it "had to be done". So Yeah.
All for the greater good... Makes you wonder if the king who exiled the wardens knew what he was doing.
 

kelenas

Well-Known Member
#35
Doing "WHATEVER IT TAKES" is a very vague guideline that could be interpreted in numerous ways.
Killing an unwilling recruit, or forcefully inducing him; both choices are ruthless, and both have reasonable arguments for and against them. A dead recruit can't spread secrets, but he can't fight against the Darkspawn, either. A living recruit might remain resentful, or he might overcome it with sufficient indoctrination. A living recruit can still be killed at a later date if he proves utterly uncooperative and troublesome, while a dead one can't be brought back, no matter how much you might need him.

The entire issue is made even more complicated because Jory was the first one to draw a weapon and to strike a blow (~8:00), which means we could expand this discussion with the question whether Jory's action escalated the situation, or if Duncan would have killed him regardless.

Perhaps you are correct with your arguments, or maybe I am, or perhaps neither of us is. We can certainly discuss it, but with only one example to go by, I doubt we'll reach a consensus.

Awakening might help in that regard when it comes out and provide an additional example (or even more), but I'm not sure I want to hold my breath om that.

- Kelenas
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#36
According to Duncan, he wouldn't have killed Jory if Jory hadn't drawn his weapon.
 

Meinos Kaen

Well-Known Member
#37
Forcing him to drink the blood wouldn't have worked, hn? Oh, well...

Off-Topic a bit, in spoilerish fashion: If I romance Leliana but I choose to make a baby with Morrigano to save my ass, does she leave me in the end? Also, even as a male warden, can I persuade Alistair to have sex with her instead of me?
 

kelenas

Well-Known Member
#38
Your actions with Morrigan don't have an effect on your chosen romance, as far as I know. Morrigan will leave one way or another, whether you romanced her or not, Leilana and Zevran will stay, and Alistair depends on your choices during his personal quest and at the Landsmeet.

- Kelenas
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#39
Meinos Kaen said:
Forcing him to drink the blood wouldn't have worked, hn? Oh, well...
Don't know what would have happened there, forcing him to drink it might have worked or something else could happen, not sure what though. He could have survived the joining if he hadn't gone for a weapon.
 

Meinos Kaen

Well-Known Member
#40
SotF said:
Meinos Kaen said:
Forcing him to drink the blood wouldn't have worked, hn? Oh, well...
Don't know what would have happened there, forcing him to drink it might have worked or something else could happen, not sure what though. He could have survived the joining if he hadn't gone for a weapon.
Yeah... Also, I wonder why the mages aren't researching to make the thing less lethal or at least remove the age-shortening side effects.

I mean, from what Ducan said, asking the mages to prepare the ritual, it's clear that the blood doesn't affect the grey wardens not because it's drank instead of splattered on, but because there's magic involved.

Were I a mage grey warden, that would be the first thing I'd do after the battle's over. Focus on researching a way to not make the joining lethal or at least remove the age-cut. That way, the numbers would grow because they would not need replacements every thirty years or such. -_-''
 

kelenas

Well-Known Member
#41
My guess is that they already did as much as they could within reasonable boundaries. The Mage at Soldier's Peak proves that there can be done more with additional research, but had to use his fellow Wardens as subjects for his experiments and studies.

You need to keep in mind that, by itself, the Taint seems guaranteed to either kill you or turn you into a ghoul within a few weeks or months, and the best even a reasonably competent Mage can do is to delay this for a few days, going by the Dalish Origin story.
The fact that he Wardens apparently developed a procedure that allows the effects of the Taint to be delayed for thirty years is pretty impressive.

- Kelenas
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#42
kelenas said:
My guess is that they already did as much as they could within reasonable boundaries. The Mage at Soldier's Peak proves that there can be done more with additional research, but had to use his fellow Wardens as subjects for his experiments and studies.

You need to keep in mind that, by itself, the Taint seems guaranteed to either kill you or turn you into a ghoul within a few weeks or months, and the best even a reasonably competent Mage can do is to delay this for a few days, going by the Dalish Origin story.
The fact that he Wardens apparently developed a procedure that allows the effects of the Taint to be delayed for thirty years is pretty impressive.

- Kelenas
Makes you wonder if the nut at Wardens Peak will make it even safer still if he's allowed to live.
 

Ryuujinn

Well-Known Member
#43
About the possibility of recruiting multiple Wardens from the origins, well (and it's been a little while since I've played the game, so please correct me if I'm wrong), if I recall correctly, some NPCs in the main quest areas will remark that it has been some time since the player's origin. Like, when you return to Orzammar, I think that a dwarf or two will remark that a year had passed since the Provings the Dwarf Noble and Dwarf Commoner participated in. So it could be possible that Duncan had time to recruit more than one "Warden", though the Human Noble and Dalish Elf would be under a more serious time constraint, the Dalish more than the Human.
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#44
Doubtful, mainly because you massively underestimate how much TIME it takes to walk across a land as big as Ferelden on foot with hostile wildlife every five steps.

Duncan doesn't have a Greywardenmobile to bring him to Ostagar in timely fashion, see...

You need to keep in mind that, by itself, the Taint seems guaranteed to either kill you or turn you into a ghoul within a few weeks or months, and the best even a reasonably competent Mage can do is to delay this for a few days, going by the Dalish Origin story.
The Mabari Hound was completely healed from it with the concoction the kennel master fed it. You'd think they'd make research on how to use that stuff on humans...
 

Meinos Kaen

Well-Known Member
#45
GenocideHeart said:
Doubtful, mainly because you massively underestimate how much TIME it takes to walk across a land as big as Ferelden on foot with hostile wildlife every five steps.

Duncan doesn't have a Greywardenmobile to bring him to Ostagar in timely fashion, see...

You need to keep in mind that, by itself, the Taint seems guaranteed to either kill you or turn you into a ghoul within a few weeks or months, and the best even a reasonably competent Mage can do is to delay this for a few days, going by the Dalish Origin story.
The Mabari Hound was completely healed from it with the concoction the kennel master fed it. You'd think they'd make research on how to use that stuff on humans...
... All hail GenocideHeart, discoverer of plot-holes! XD
 

kelenas

Well-Known Member
#46
I think I remember some vague explanation that Mabari weren't affected by the Taint so much as the simple toxicity of the Darkspawn blood, and that they grew immune if they survived... but would probably still need to be put down at a later date, since they'd slowly grow more and more aggressive over time, until they'd attack anything in their sight or somesuch.

It wasn't from a very reliable source, though, IIRC, so I tend to agree with GH on that issue.

Even more of a plothole/inconsistency is the fact that you'll see several soldiers in Ostagar who are sick due to contact with Darkspawn blood, yet the problem is never mentioned much beyond that; none of your companions (who aren't already immune, like Shale or Alistair) ever suffer any ill-effects from battling Darkspawn (even though they're often drenched in Darkspawn blood), and the Dwarves of Ostagar never mention anything of the sort, either.

The obvious reason is gameplay; it would suck pretty hard if you spent most of your game propping up Sten, for example, only to lose him permanently because he did was he was supposed to do; cutting enemies to pieces.
In-game, though, no explanation is given.

- Kelenas
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#47
kelenas said:
I think I remember some vague explanation that Mabari weren't affected by the Taint so much as the simple toxicity of the Darkspawn blood, and that they grew immune if they survived... but would probably still need to be put down at a later date, since they'd slowly grow more and more aggressive over time, until they'd attack anything in their sight or somesuch.

It wasn't from a very reliable source, though, IIRC, so I tend to agree with GH on that issue.

Even more of a plothole/inconsistency is the fact that you'll see several soldiers in Ostagar who are sick due to contact with Darkspawn blood, yet the problem is never mentioned much beyond that; none of your companions (who aren't already immune, like Shale or Alistair) ever suffer any ill-effects from battling Darkspawn (even though they're often drenched in Darkspawn blood), and the Dwarves of Ostagar never mention anything of the sort, either.

The obvious reason is gameplay; it would suck pretty hard if you spent most of your game propping up Sten, for example, only to lose him permanently because he did was he was supposed to do; cutting enemies to pieces.
In-game, though, no explanation is given.

- Kelenas
So essentially, the flower is the same thing that the Dalish Elf was given then, it makes sense there.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#48
Well if you want more of the starting PCs to live its possible but they might as well still be dead. The Dwarven Noble for instance COULD survive the deep roads if he ran across the Legion of the Dead and joined them I don't know how long he'd be able to live for but his chances are better there than anywhere else down there and with most of the darkspawn moving towards the south its possible for him to make it there.

The Dwarven Castless though? He needs Duncan to get out of the crap he got himself into to live.

In total agreement for dalish elf, dead, dead, dead, and DEAD.

City elf, executed. Or if he/she escapes becomes a serial killer lurking in the shadows only killing humans. ...Okay that last part might be a stretch.

Mage, might be able to survive. I'd think he'd pick up bloodmagic to fight BACK against the blood mages that were screwing with his home, fight fire with fire ya know?

(Oh did anyone else get the feeling those Phylacteries were basically a form a Bloodmagic too?)

Human Nobal, could survive as he was able to get through to the cellar with the secret passage almost on his own.
 

Meinos Kaen

Well-Known Member
#49
The Eromancer said:
Human Nobal, could survive as he was able to get through to the cellar with the secret passage almost on his own.
And let's not forget he's got a Mabari hound of his own. :snigger: Have you seen the conversations happening between the dog and Sten? O.O
 

SotF

Well-Known Member
#50
Meinos Kaen said:
The Eromancer said:
Human Nobal, could survive as he was able to get through to the cellar with the secret passage almost on his own.
And let's not forget he's got a Mabari hound of his own. :snigger: Have you seen the conversations happening between the dog and Sten? O.O
The Human Noble and his mother made it to the entrance of that passage, Duncan convinced him not to keep killing and run for it.
 
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