Endgame spoiler discussion.

Jimbobob5536

Well-Known Member
#1
'cause from what I've seen we don't have this thread yet, and we should.

Sad about Nat and Tony, happy for Steve.

The final fight was glorious.
 

DaJuggernaut

Well-Known Member
#2
Dual wielding Thor, Hammer and shield Cap, Iron Pepper?

Yyyyyeeeeeeeeesssssssss.
 

Karnath

Well-Known Member
#3
I admittedly had tears in my eyes when Tony died.
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#4
Just got back from this.

It's a lot to unpack...



First off, it didn't really surprise me. A lot of what I expected to happen happened, most of it actually. The only slight surprise was Natasha being killed off due to lots of longstanding rumors about a solo film for her, and I saw that coming a mile away in the actual film.

Sending Clint and Natasha after the Soul Stone alone was about as clear as it could be, one of them wasn't coming back, and I'm pretty sure Jeremy Renner is cheaper. Plus, that opening scene had to have an onscreen resolution that wasn't a funeral. I knew we were going to have that for Tony or Steve and it needed a happier reunion to balance that.

It's probably the least funny Marvel film since The Incredible Hulk. There is humor, but it plays a lot of the film straight. It is not the usual "action-comedy" kind of movie they tend to make.

It isn't just that there were fewer jokes, but also that a lot of the ones there didn't land.

Also, Thor and Rocket, particularly Thor, almost seemed like they were in a different movie. Weirdly, it kind of worked. I also love that they didn't muscle Thor up for the final part of the movie and explain it away as an Asguardian thing.

It's still one of the best Marvel films. I don't know if I liked it more than Infinity War more or not yet. I think I need to see it at least once more before I can make that call. It is an excellent and satisfying ending if nothing else.

You can predict who will die in this movie by whose contracts are the most expensive. It also pretty much rules out a solo Black Widow movie being a thing. Yeah, they could do the "prequel" thing, but I don't think they will. Cap technically dies for all intents and purposes. In fact, I kind of expect the next Avengers movie to open with his funeral.

Banner isn't an idiot, yet he didn't seem to react when the Ancient One explained to him that his reality was fucked to his face. As I said, the Infinity Stones are necessary because they regulate fundamental forces in the Universe. Without them things go wrong.

Thanos destroyed the ones in the MCU timeline. By the rules of time travel in the movie, they aren't remade because younger Thanos was killed and didn't collect them. It just saves that alternate timeline the headache of having to deal with him.

On the other hand, they may have been remade by Bruce when he undid what Thanos had done. Like I've said before, he's not an idiot and that might have been part of his snap.

I thought Iron Man might end up with the retirement plan ending rather than Steve, but the comics made me doubt that since Tony is indeed one of the people who wielded the Gauntlet there. Plus, the amount of flags for him in this movie were astounding.

We now not only have a "new" Gamora, but we probably have another Loki running around.

No, Steve did not break the time travel rules. He was obviously living in an alternate timeline and just used the time travel device to return to his original one.

It's weird how easily Peter Parker gives up his identity in the MCU. It's extremely out of character for him. His level of paranoia about his identity is one of his core character traits. They really need to stop doing this.

I think a lot of people are going to be annoyed about what they did with Thor here. I'm not one of them. I like the idea of him being part of the cast in the next Guardians movie.

Love that the fears of many idiots weren't founded involving Captain Marvel. She's not in much of the movie, doesn't just show up and job Thanos, and pretty much gets tossed around like everyone else.

I also like that she has that slightly menacing tension going on about her. That's the Carol I know from the comics era the MCU is seeming to draw from.

Very nice "ladies" moment at the end of the movie. Wasn't overdone. Would have been nice if Black Widow could have been a part of it. Really like that Scarlett Witch got as much of a moment there as Captain Marvel.

Great movie, well worth watching. Glad I saw it, if only so I can internet freely again.
 
Last edited:

Oni_Rinku

Knower of Stuff
#5
Just got back from watching it myself and am looking forward to what happens next. Contrabardus said most of what I'm thinking, so kudos to you. I'm not really surprised that there's no end-credits scene, though I do wonder who the new "focus" of the MCU is going to be now.

Also that small scene of Peter and Carol is fun, I was actually a big fan of their date in the comics and wished we got more. Granted in the MCU there is that age difference, but I can see it playing out a la Black Cat in the Ultimate 'verse.
 

DaJuggernaut

Well-Known Member
#6
After thinking about it for a bit, they may have screwed up the Cap returning the stones thing. Other than the Time and Soul Stones, pretty much all the others were in containers of some kind.

The Tesseract cube, Loki's staff, the Power Stone orb, and Jane Foster. Unless they told Steve offscreen or the Ancient One did, how would he be able to put them back?

Plus the Soul Stone. Shouldn't that have stopped Nat from dying? And what a missed opportunity that was for a Cap and Red Skull reunion.

Also Cap did kind of break some time travel rules. For one by staying and marrying Peggy, that erases the canon children she has in that reality.

And it sure didn't look like he came back via the time travel device. At that age, his body may not have been able to take the obvious strain. And for another he wasn't wearing the device when Sam and Bucky went to talk to him.

And Contra brought up a good point. There is now a reality where Loki escapes with the Tesseract instead of being taken to Asgard by Thor.

I did like that throw back to Winter Soldier (and if you stop and squint, Secret Empire) with that elevator scene.
"Hail Hydra." Motherfucker.
 
Last edited:

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#7
After thinking about it for a bit, they may have screwed up the Cap returning the stones thing. Other than the Time and Soul Stones, pretty much all the others were in containers of some kind.

The Tesseract cube, Loki's staff, the Power Stone orb, and Jane Foster. Unless they told Steve offscreen or the Ancient One did, how would he be able to put them back?

Plus the Soul Stone. Shouldn't that have stopped Nat from dying? And what a missed opportunity that was for a Cap and Red Skull reunion.

Also Cap did kind of break some time travel rules. For one by staying and marrying Peggy, that erases the canon children she has in that reality.

And it sure didn't look like he came back via the time travel device. At that age, his body may not have been able to take the obvious strain. And for another he wasn't wearing the device when Sam and Bucky went to talk to him.

And Contra brought up a good point. There is now a reality where Loki escapes with the Tesseract instead of being taken to Asgard by Thor.

I did like that throw back to Winter Soldier (and if you stop and squint, Secret Empire) with that elevator scene.
"Hail Hydra." Motherfucker.
Of course they "briefed" Steve.

No matter what happened there was going to be an alternate timeline created. It's a branch, not a replacement. The original timeline continues on unaffected by the changes in the alternate one. That's how time travel has worked in comics for decades.

In fact, there are easily several branches created in the movie. One where Loki escapes with a stone, one where he doesn't, one where Howard Stark meets Tony in the 1970s, and one where he doesn't, etc...

Each branch that has an Infinity Stone taken from it needs it to be put back into circulation exactly when it was removed in order to survive. However, that doesn't mean putting it back exactly where it was found. Each branch doesn't lose the stone until after it is in the possession of the time travelers, so as long as it is put back into circulation exactly when it was removed, nothing goes wrong cosmically speaking. So, Steve just has to show up with the stone in the exact time and place it left time, and then he can do whatever with it without really hurting the timeline, at least on a cosmic level. The butterfly effect is going to happen regardless and keeping generally with what would have occurred would help minimize that, but it really isn't necessary to preserve the timeline's integrity in the manner the Ancient One was talking about.

Steve can totally give the good guys an advantage by where he leaves the stones. That could have unpredictable consequences long term and is more likely to lead to a vastly different outcome in the future, but he could still do it.

The alternate reality's Thanos was destroyed, so he wasn't a danger. He could have just handed the reality stone over to the Asguardians for safekeeping, could have turned the Power Stone over to that reality's Guardians to give to the Nova Corps for safekeeping, etc...

He didn't have to put them right back where they were to begin with, though he probably tried to put them back at least reasonably close to where they exited the timeline in most cases. They just had to be back in that reality to preserve the timeline. It was already an alternate branch.

Also, as I mentioned. Steve was living in an alternate timeline, and just used his time travel device to return to the right moment in the old one when he needed to. It doesn't matter that Sharon might not exist in that alternate timeline, she'd still be there in the original. He didn't murder anyone, just lived in an alternate universe where she might have never existed anyway.

Time travel is tricky to do in any movie. It's convoluted and hard to get one's head around. However, Avengers Endgame does an amazing job at establishing and sticking to its own rules. That's one of the more impressive things about the movie, it actually does a really good job of explaining and sticking to comic book time travel rules. The nature of it means it can't be done perfectly, but it does about as good a job as can be done I think.
 
Last edited:

WhiteKnightLeo

Well-Known Member
#8
I would loved to have a scene of Cap meeting Red Skull again.
 
#9
I agree about Spider-man being out of character regarding his secrecy. It's one of the most annoying things about this iteration of the character.

As far as Loki, I don't see why you think there's more than one of them around (or so I took your "another Loki running around" to mean). All his escaping with the Space Stone means is that he isn't sitting in Asgard jail at the time of the Dark Elves incident. There's still only one of him.
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#10
I agree about Spider-man being out of character regarding his secrecy. It's one of the most annoying things about this iteration of the character.

As far as Loki, I don't see why you think there's more than one of them around (or so I took your "another Loki running around" to mean). All his escaping with the Space Stone means is that he isn't sitting in Asgard jail at the time of the Dark Elves incident. There's still only one of him.
Um, no. There are several of him. There are several alternate timelines created in the movie. They aren't erased just because the infinity stones get put back because they are still altered by the time travelers themselves.

They cut off Thanos's head at the start of the movie, yet he still attacks Earth at the end. That isn't the "same" Thanos as the one they killed.

In fact, the time line where Loki escapes is definitely a permanent alternate timeline. Captain America didn't fight himself in the original MCU timeline. Those things happening doesn't change what happened in the past of the main universe and create an alternate timeline with another Captain America and Loki, along with everyone else in that universe. There's no fixing that one so that it goes back to the same path. This is explained in the movie.

The point of putting them back isn't to prevent the alternate timelines from being created. It just stabilizes each Universe so it doesn't go wrong as per the Ancient One's exposition.

In fact, the main MCU universe needs their Infinity Stones back. Until a movie comes along that says otherwise, I'm going to assume that Professor Hulk put them back when he undid the snap and that he undid both of Thanos's snaps at once. It was basically explained to him as if he was a five year old what would happen to his reality without them.

Thus, there are several of every character in the movie. They just exist in different timelines, which are essentially alternate universes.

The nature of how they undid what Thanos did means that the dead Loki wasn't revived. They only fixed the damage from the snap itself. Meaning everyone Thanos killed prior to it is still dead.

However, Loki is smart enough to figure out that something was going on, and observant enough to realize there was more than one of the same person hanging around.

Asguardians are obviously familiar with Time Travel. Loki has the Space Stone. The Thanos from his timeline is presumably dead. He has the capability to sneak his way back into the main MCU reality. His curiosity alone is enough motivation for it. Though it's also worth pointing out that he's without the majority of his character development, so his redemption arc has effectively been erased. He's fresh off of being beaten by the Avengers and revenge against them and the Earth in general is another possible motivation.

He basically got a ticket to get out of his own death in the MCU, even though the Loki that died won't be revived. Instead we're likely to have the one that escaped running around instead.
 
Last edited:

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#11
I enjoyed the film, but let's talk Alternate timelines.

Cap promised Banner he'd cut all the branches. So if Marvel wanted to, they could claim that at some point he found 'escaped Loki' and ensured he was returned to his proper place in the timeline, because of all the changes they accidentally made, that is the one that could still end badly for the good guys since the 2012 Thanos still exists. Of course, if Cap doesn't prevent Loki from taking the Stone in the First place, the timelines is still irrevocably altered. However, I think Loki IS getting his own series, which gives Marvel the opportunity to pull a "Loki: Agent of Asgard" if they want.

Imagine that Time Travel Cap runs into Escaped Loki, and the only way to get him to take the Space stone back to where it needs to be, is to give him a glimpse of his own future. The death of his mother, the destruction of Asgard and the his own death at Thanos hands. Escaped Loki gives takes the Stone back to Asgard and under the guise of penance becomes their agent throughout the universe, all while working in his own way to prevent what he sees as a dark future....and ensure he comes out of things ontop. However over the course of the series he manages to end up where he was by the end of Thor Ragnarok in his relationships and heroism. Then again as Contrabardus stated, he could just 'jump' to the main MCU timeline, and 'Dead Loki's' words would no longer be hollow. The sun would indeed shine on Thor and Loki (eventually) again.

The next major alternate timeline is the 2014 Branch since that one lost it's Thanos, and his forces including Gamorra. IF the Guardians of the Galaxy form it's going to look like a VERY different team without her being present. Still as long as Ego dosen't find Quill (until he's formed more positive bonds) that one SHOULD be okay. I mean...no more Thanos...no one hunting for the Infinity Stones...and since Ronin no longer has Thanos Patronage, he might not even bother going for the power stone (Since he didn't realize what it was until later)....and even if he does, Carol is out there and just might be able to sort him out with a little help from whatever version of the Guardians forms in that timeline.

Then there's the timeline where Cap finds and Marry's Peggy. That one is likely the 'Best' timelines since I really don't see Cap sitting on his rear doing NOTHING. He probably helps eliminate 'Hydra' before it can take Root within SHIELD, and SHIELD itself probably becomes a more Nobel organization overall.

Heh, here's an idea for a fanfic. Since Steve knew of Black Panther and since the events of that film happened before Infinity War, what if he tries to help young Erik Stevens (Killmonger) after the death of his father. Sure Cap will be getting on in his years by that point, but his work with SHIELD should allow him to do something that might prevent Erik from becoming so consumed by hatred and a need to make the world pay that he lashes out as we see in the Black Panther film.
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#12

IF Mysterio is on the level.....well....****!
 

Ordo

Well-Known Member
#13
Ladies and gentlemen, with the True 'Far From Home' trailer out I think we can see the major issue in Phase 4...the snap is bringing various realities together and our heroes are going to be scrambling to put out the various fires.
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#14
IF Mysterio is on the level.....well....****!
I want you to seriously think about that sentence and who it is that you're talking about.

I have my doubts that the Nick Fury we see is even the real one.
 
Top