Fairy Tail Discussion Thread
- Thread starter Lord Raine
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Oh well, I can still tell you all to look at that chick on the bottom right molesting Lucy. :wub:[/quote]
So, bored at the mall yesterday, I looked through the official Del Rey volumes, and came across a little jewel that supports my pet theory that Amnesiac!Gerard is Mistgun.
Linking the OM page because I couldn't find the DR version online. The difference is that his last bubble down there resembles...
this little speech about the Ray of Hope.
It's not much, but given what we know so far, I'd say it's a suitable way for Mashima to both write out Gerard for another few arcs and resolve Mistgun's mystery at the same time.
Linking the OM page because I couldn't find the DR version online. The difference is that his last bubble down there resembles...
this little speech about the Ray of Hope.
It's not much, but given what we know so far, I'd say it's a suitable way for Mashima to both write out Gerard for another few arcs and resolve Mistgun's mystery at the same time.
In all fairness, I'd be more open to pity were it not Erza being the one he messed with. After that the gloves were off. Killing Simoun, whose only mistake in his short showing was loving Erza was just icing on the cake, brainwashed or not. :mellow:
Well, add that to the WTF that is Mistgun and Gerard is going to have to work for pity. I grant awesome, as that "I believe in the man Erza believes in" line was indeed awe inspiring, but pity will have to be earned via long and hard suffering.
Well, add that to the WTF that is Mistgun and Gerard is going to have to work for pity. I grant awesome, as that "I believe in the man Erza believes in" line was indeed awe inspiring, but pity will have to be earned via long and hard suffering.
"Earn" it? He's not having a change of heart. He doesn't remember anything. For all intents and purposes, it wasn't him that did those things. He's essentially a random innocent person that's being told they're actually a hideous bastard, and being held accountable for things they know nothing about.
The morals and ethics behind total mindwipe are anything but clear-cut, but it stands to reason that someone can't be held accountable for things 'they' didn't do. Even if you think he should be held accountable in some manner, how can you not pity him?
Plus, there's a chance it's not even Gerard to begin with. The existence of Mistgun potentially suggests the existence of Gerard clones. What if he's a clone? Is he still accountable for what some other version of him did?
The morals and ethics behind total mindwipe are anything but clear-cut, but it stands to reason that someone can't be held accountable for things 'they' didn't do. Even if you think he should be held accountable in some manner, how can you not pity him?
Plus, there's a chance it's not even Gerard to begin with. The existence of Mistgun potentially suggests the existence of Gerard clones. What if he's a clone? Is he still accountable for what some other version of him did?
Yeah, Laser Guided Amnesia as a plot device for a villain is something I'd say to avoid at all costs precisely because it makes that logic way too easy to use to 'negate' past crimes, which puts it into auto Your Mileage May Vary territory. Justified or not with whatever the hell Ur did (Though he's remembering a LOT of very specific crap to the point where I'm heavily suspicious as to whether or not he's lying out of convenience this point... Then I remember the mind reader almost confirmed it, but still, I'd assume there are probably spells to block that sort of thing and he'd outright stated he was going for Nirvana anyway...). I've never been one to overlook characters actions just because the dude can't remember committing them (Though I do find said situation of a random guy with amnesia being informed he's a bastard outright hilarious out of context without Erza in the equation), as I find the plot device is WAY too easy to just allow such things. That it involved making Erza of all people cry though is definitely making my opinion on this matter far more biased however. :mellow:
Though that clone bit is a good point, but I'm still going to be iffy with him up till the point where that's going to be confirmed or not (And even the the sheer WTF may or may not make it less about pity and more a 'WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE?!' kind of deal). It'd be much easier simply knowing what the hell Ur and the people she's working for are actually doing with this whole Zeref business.
Though that clone bit is a good point, but I'm still going to be iffy with him up till the point where that's going to be confirmed or not (And even the the sheer WTF may or may not make it less about pity and more a 'WHAT HAS SCIENCE DONE?!' kind of deal). It'd be much easier simply knowing what the hell Ur and the people she's working for are actually doing with this whole Zeref business.
And while I can certainly see where that logic comes from, I personally don't agree that just because he can't remember his actions makes them dismissible due to his current state. For similar reasons as to why I dislike the usual methodology behind that particular plot device. This is one of those scenarios in which multiple people can have varying interpretations of, hence the Your Mileage May Vary nature of it.
Edit: Though now that I think about it I may need to define what 'verse view' I'm speaking from here. In verse, as in a more specific perspective to this point in time, I'd certainly agree that the fact that he can't remember his actions means that in theory one could argue that his punishment shouldn't be AS severe as if he were still the evil bastard he was when he committed the act. However my particular notion of this is more from an overall out of verse view. I don't have to remotely like or pity Gerard the character just because he can't remember his actions currently, because those previous actions are still part of his character, and I didn't like them one bit (As he messed with Erza, rawr). Now he's moving up my scale with awesome lines like that last one he spoke to Natsu, but he still has a lot of ground to tread before I can forgive his previous actions.
It's kind of similar to quite a few people not liking say Hancock because they don't agree with the notion that her 'Dark and Troubled Past' dismisses how bitchy she acted prior to that particular reveal (And in a certain sense continued after). Or more relevantly how many do not remotely find Mayuri's current actions amusing nor dismiss how much of a complete monster he was back in the soul society arc just because he's playing nice with the goodies of late. Differing opinions on a similar subject and all.
Of course I'm not remotely trying to pretend that my particular feelings on this matter are unbiased at all despite my basis behind that particular line of thinking. Dude messed with my favorite female, the reigning queen of badass in this series, despite her totally still believing him up to the end, and in fact even after he pretty much betrayed her completely. UNFORGIVABLE RAWR! :mellow:
Edit: Though now that I think about it I may need to define what 'verse view' I'm speaking from here. In verse, as in a more specific perspective to this point in time, I'd certainly agree that the fact that he can't remember his actions means that in theory one could argue that his punishment shouldn't be AS severe as if he were still the evil bastard he was when he committed the act. However my particular notion of this is more from an overall out of verse view. I don't have to remotely like or pity Gerard the character just because he can't remember his actions currently, because those previous actions are still part of his character, and I didn't like them one bit (As he messed with Erza, rawr). Now he's moving up my scale with awesome lines like that last one he spoke to Natsu, but he still has a lot of ground to tread before I can forgive his previous actions.
It's kind of similar to quite a few people not liking say Hancock because they don't agree with the notion that her 'Dark and Troubled Past' dismisses how bitchy she acted prior to that particular reveal (And in a certain sense continued after). Or more relevantly how many do not remotely find Mayuri's current actions amusing nor dismiss how much of a complete monster he was back in the soul society arc just because he's playing nice with the goodies of late. Differing opinions on a similar subject and all.
Of course I'm not remotely trying to pretend that my particular feelings on this matter are unbiased at all despite my basis behind that particular line of thinking. Dude messed with my favorite female, the reigning queen of badass in this series, despite her totally still believing him up to the end, and in fact even after he pretty much betrayed her completely. UNFORGIVABLE RAWR! :mellow:
He can't be held accountable for the same reason someone who is insane or mentally retarded cannot truly be held fully accountable for their actions, criminal or otherwise.
If anything, his case is even more cut-and-dry than that, because by all accounts, he's arguably not even the same person anymore. His mind has been completely altered. The only thing that's the same is his body and his powers. Did his powers commit those crimes? No. Did his flesh commit those crimes? No. That Gerard committed those crimes. But 'that Gerard' is gone. For all intents and purposes, that version of Gerard is dead, and will remain as such as long as the amnesia persists. And if he never regains those memories, then that Gerard is gone for good.
You say amnesia does not change the fact that those crimes and sins were committed. I agree. But my counter is simple. How can you try an innocent man as guilty, in all fairness and justice? Unless his memory returns, he cannot be reasonably held accountable for past crimes, nor held accountable for past actions. To do otherwise would be similar to trying a hypothetical alternate dimension version of of someone for crimes another version of them committed in another dimension.
If anything, his case is even more cut-and-dry than that, because by all accounts, he's arguably not even the same person anymore. His mind has been completely altered. The only thing that's the same is his body and his powers. Did his powers commit those crimes? No. Did his flesh commit those crimes? No. That Gerard committed those crimes. But 'that Gerard' is gone. For all intents and purposes, that version of Gerard is dead, and will remain as such as long as the amnesia persists. And if he never regains those memories, then that Gerard is gone for good.
You say amnesia does not change the fact that those crimes and sins were committed. I agree. But my counter is simple. How can you try an innocent man as guilty, in all fairness and justice? Unless his memory returns, he cannot be reasonably held accountable for past crimes, nor held accountable for past actions. To do otherwise would be similar to trying a hypothetical alternate dimension version of of someone for crimes another version of them committed in another dimension.
Made a ninja edit to that last one prior to your post to clarify the perspective. Regardless of whether or not that changes anything though, far far wiser for us to agree to disagree, because neither of us are really going to sway on this. I can definitely see where your logic is coming from and it is indeed a valid point, it's just this whole thing is riddled with opinionated topics and Your Mileage may vary that we'll really get nowhere with our differing opinions on the matter.
Somehow Erza in a wedding dress on the cover of a chapter that's pretty much all about her current issue regarding Gerard pisses me off. I think personal bias is really starting to cloud my judgement at this point. Granted I didn't agree with Death NOR Life Imprisonment given the circumstances, but still... That they were all suddenly like Guild Level Nakama's with Gerard too didn't help (Though granted he DID certainly help save pretty much all of them and it's nice to get some goddamn gratitude regardless of past crimes).
Though that the reason they were as such was because of Erza's reaction to the situation as Natsu's motions prior to it seem to indicate appeases me somewhat. Not sure how I feel about Erza 'accepting' it like they technically should to avoid MASSIVE trouble...
LULZ @ Happy with footprints on him there.
And WTF @ the next chapter title, because if that implies what I think it's implying... Of course they could technically mean Cait Shelter as they have the whole Nirvana deal, though if they hold them accountable for that that's even more BS than Gerard getting full punishment.
WTF @ Gerard's last name too.
Edit: Oh yes, and MangaStream's pact with the prince of darkness continues to be apparent.
Though that the reason they were as such was because of Erza's reaction to the situation as Natsu's motions prior to it seem to indicate appeases me somewhat. Not sure how I feel about Erza 'accepting' it like they technically should to avoid MASSIVE trouble...
LULZ @ Happy with footprints on him there.
And WTF @ the next chapter title, because if that implies what I think it's implying... Of course they could technically mean Cait Shelter as they have the whole Nirvana deal, though if they hold them accountable for that that's even more BS than Gerard getting full punishment.
WTF @ Gerard's last name too.
Edit: Oh yes, and MangaStream's pact with the prince of darkness continues to be apparent.
Chapter 163's up on onemanga
Actually Raine. Insanity and Mental Retardation are considered different as they are permenant aspects that actually affect their actions and make it not possible for the person to realize they are committing a crime. And even in those circumstance they don't get off scott free as they are required to have help.
Amnesia is a different case. He was FULLY AWARE what he was doing. Just because he doesn't remember now is not an excuse for why he committed those crimes as he did it knowingly and purposefully. And Amnesia is never permenant. You can have conditions of memory loss where someone's memories are completely destroyed and cannot return, Amnesia is not one of them. Yes Amnesia can last for a very long time but memories will resurface under it's condition.
So honestly, comparing Insanity and Mental Retardation to Amnesia is not a possibility as they describe things that are much too different to compare. Probably the best argument you could make is Diminished Capacity in this circumstance but he would still be held accountable for his actions.
Amnesia is a different case. He was FULLY AWARE what he was doing. Just because he doesn't remember now is not an excuse for why he committed those crimes as he did it knowingly and purposefully. And Amnesia is never permenant. You can have conditions of memory loss where someone's memories are completely destroyed and cannot return, Amnesia is not one of them. Yes Amnesia can last for a very long time but memories will resurface under it's condition.
So honestly, comparing Insanity and Mental Retardation to Amnesia is not a possibility as they describe things that are much too different to compare. Probably the best argument you could make is Diminished Capacity in this circumstance but he would still be held accountable for his actions.
That's running with the assumption, though, that the amnesia is permanent. If we're being anal about it, it shouldn't even be called amnesia, because that's not what it is. Magic doesn't exist IRL,* let along magical memory wipe, so there's no precedent for what to do with someone who commits crimes then literally has their memory destroyed. That's not 'just' amnesia. That is, for all intents and purposes, pressing the reset button on who they are as a person (or at least how they've developed as a person for X amount of time).
We also don't know if what happened to him is permanent or not. Those memories could just be forgotten, or they could have been erased and destroyed outright.
If they are just submerged or locked away, then yes, he should be held accountable to some degree. But if they've been flat-out destroyed or erased from his mind, then he is, for all intents and purposes, a total innocent.
* And if it does, I'm going to be PISSED. That totally should have been brought up in school vocation day. If Witch/Wizard is available as a profession, then you need to fucking tell people, so they don't waste their life doing things that don't involve dragons, magic swords, forever wars between angels and demons, and forging pacts with anthropomorphic personifications of nature.
We also don't know if what happened to him is permanent or not. Those memories could just be forgotten, or they could have been erased and destroyed outright.
If they are just submerged or locked away, then yes, he should be held accountable to some degree. But if they've been flat-out destroyed or erased from his mind, then he is, for all intents and purposes, a total innocent.
* And if it does, I'm going to be PISSED. That totally should have been brought up in school vocation day. If Witch/Wizard is available as a profession, then you need to fucking tell people, so they don't waste their life doing things that don't involve dragons, magic swords, forever wars between angels and demons, and forging pacts with anthropomorphic personifications of nature.
I'm not making a wrong assumption. There is still a possibility it is not amnesia. But all the hints and suggestions are definately pointing at it being amnesia. And considering this is Fairy Tail and obviously Shounen makes that even more likely. I don't get why you are saying I'm wrong, I'm just giving the most likely possibility as alluding to facts that support me. Your suggestion of his memories being gone is possible, but there isn't much supporting it except speculation.
Beyond that, even if he did have his memories erased he would still be held accountable for what he did. Your arguement was that he couldn't because it was like being insane or mentally retarded. But that isn't the case.
As stated, at the time he committed his crimes, he was AWARE of what he was doing. Being insane or mentally retarded means he would have to not be aware of what he was doing. It's much like you stepping on an ant purposely and with the knowledge you are crushing it and then just forgetting you did it later and stepping on it accidently and not really understanding you did so. That is the main reason your comparison is off.
And Dragonbard that is why I said you could argue a case of Diminished Capacity. It means that while he was aware of what he was doing, he was in a state that made him act in a way he would not have otherwise if he was in his normal mindset. You are still responsible for your actions, just not to the same degree. It's much like being drunk and then doing something like accidently harming or killing someone in some manner.
Beyond that, even if he did have his memories erased he would still be held accountable for what he did. Your arguement was that he couldn't because it was like being insane or mentally retarded. But that isn't the case.
As stated, at the time he committed his crimes, he was AWARE of what he was doing. Being insane or mentally retarded means he would have to not be aware of what he was doing. It's much like you stepping on an ant purposely and with the knowledge you are crushing it and then just forgetting you did it later and stepping on it accidently and not really understanding you did so. That is the main reason your comparison is off.
And Dragonbard that is why I said you could argue a case of Diminished Capacity. It means that while he was aware of what he was doing, he was in a state that made him act in a way he would not have otherwise if he was in his normal mindset. You are still responsible for your actions, just not to the same degree. It's much like being drunk and then doing something like accidently harming or killing someone in some manner.
No, it isn't, because that's not what I argued. My argument is that he can't be held accountable for those crimes because he is, for all intents and purposes, not the person that committed those crimes. Unless you want to hold his DNA accountable, there's no logical or just way he could be punished, provided his mind really has been almost totally reset.