Nasuverse Fate/Gathering Night

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#1
Okay, this is a random idea that came to my mind while considering the magic systems of the Nasuverse and of the Magic: the Gathering multiverse. I concluded that yes, there IS a way to make the two coexist and still keep their own brand of magic.

Simply put, the Nasuverse is a 'lost shard' that was born at the same time as the Shard of Twelve Worlds in which Dominaria, Ulgrotha and the other "origin" planes in MtG are located.

The cataclysm that shattered the multiverse and created the Shard had a notable effect - namely, it caused magic in the Shard to develop differently than magic in the rest of the Multiverse, because the Shard became physically and astrally isolated from the rest of the multiverse.

To use a geology analogue, it's like what happened when the supercontinent Pangaea broke during ancient times - and life began evolving separatedly on the pieces, giving way to today's diversity.

Well, this is what happened to the Nasuverse in this idea - like the Shard of Twelve Worlds, it broke off the 'main' multiversal mass and became isolated.

However, UNLIKE the Shard, the Nasuverse was truly isolated - while the Shard was pushed a ways away, it was still close enough to Shandalar, the extreme corner of the main multiverse, to one day make it possible to planeswalk there again, and it happened, during the Ice Age.

Not so with the Nasuverse - it was flung so far away during the cataclysm that all contact was lost, because the distance is so great the Blind Eternities filling the space between planes will kill a Planeswalker long before they can safely reach it. As such, magic and mana in it developed very differently from Magic's. The source of power is still the same, technically (a rose by any other name and all that), but the laws and nuances governing it and its use are very different due to different evolution.

That... was the situation until recently. But, thanks to the Mending during the Time Spiral arc, all realities grew close together again - and that includes the long-lost Nasuverse. Close enough, in fact, that a determined Planeswalker or two can reach it now... and discover a new world where magic works very differently from the way they are used to.

This is the basic groundwork of the idea. With that said, Planeswalkers would find it very difficult to use their magic in the Nasuverse - the mana doesn't work like they are used to in it, so for the most part they will have to bring along their own mana-producing artifacts to make up for this difficulty (Moxen of all denominators, powerstones, colored Diamonds, Ramos's body parts, Totems - they all will work, it just means Walkers will be far less powerful than if they had full access to the plane's mana).

The clash between Magic: the Gathering wizardry and Nasuverse mystical arts should be... interesting, to say the least. In a way, the Nasuverse developed its own Planeswalkers - that's what Reality Marbles, and to a lesser extent Noble Phantasms, are essentially mimicking. On the other hand, summoning magic is far less advanced, due to them being so remote they didn't have access to other Planes' creatures for summoning, something a Planeswalker will be able to do with great ease compared to typical Nasuverse summoning.

This is just a rough idea and could use some improvements. It's aimed at balancing things out - Magic is, at its core, on a much higher level of power than Nasuverse magic, so introducing a story reason to at least initially nerf it is basically a requirement. Also, both sides have things they are better at than the other.

Suggestions?
 

shout27

Well-Known Member
#2
I like the idea, but I don't know enough about either series to come up with any useful constructive criticism. About the only idea I have in mind, is making the nasuverse mages attempt to increase the soul density of their realm by stealing it from these new dimensions that just popped up. Maybe drawing the attention of the story's antagonist in the process. . .
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#3
One possible scenario might be where the planeswalker's actions result in the existence of magic being revealed to the public in Nasuverse and the mages freak out not once but twice when they come to understand the cosmology in which they are situated.

Beyond this I got nothing. I haven't played Magic since Ravnica and I haven't even glanced at the most recent setting developments. I don't suppose I could trouble you for a short primer?
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#4
Inaba said:
Beyond this I got nothing. I haven't played Magic since Ravnica and I haven't even glanced at the most recent setting developments. I don't suppose I could trouble you for a short primer?
The main thing you must know of post-Ravnica magic is that in the end, all the screwing around with time and space caught up with Dominaria. You didn't think stuff like Teferi zapping the Shiv and Zhalfir tectonic plaques out of phase with the rest of Dominaria for 500 years wouldn't have consequences, did you? Or the Tolarian disaster? Or the Brothers' War? Or the Phyrexian Overlay?

Long story short, the countless near-armageddon catastrophes Dominaria endured caused reality itself to start unraveling, a lot like what happens if Balefire is abused. Dominaria became a wasteland where life was barely sustainable, aside from the last few inhabited lands like Skyshroud (which remained on Dominaria after the Invasion), Krosa and Llanowar, and to a lesser extent Urborg and Otaria in general.

Giant time rifts then started appearing. They would zap people out of the timeline, or zap people from the past in the present, or zap people from the future in the present, or zap people from parallel timelines where things went differently in the present... And with each passing day the multiverse became more and more fractured.

Ultimately, most of the remaining ancient Planeswalkers of old, such as Freyalise and Windgrace, died to repair the damage done to the fabric of reality with their own Planeswalker sparks. Some other 'walkers were, uh, beaten into cooperating by Jeska, who, well, has about as much finesse as any other Otarian barbarian, in spite of being a Planeswalker. However, she ended up sacrificing herself to close the second to last rift, as she'd run out of people to 'persuade'.

With her gone and Teferi depowered (not to mention Zhalfir being lost forever as he screwed up in returning it to the real world's timeline), it ultimately was Nicol motherfucking Bolas who saved the world, irony of all, and he did it by beating Leshrac half to death after the Night Walker tried to take control for himself and then hurling him in the last time rift.

That act completed the Mending and saved the multiverse from certain doom. However, it had a side effect, as the Planeswalker's spark began to weaken in the whole multiverse. There were still Planeswalkers, but they were pale imitations of the demi-godlike beings of old. They were really more akin to extremely powerful wizards who could also planeswalk.

There are only two Old Walkers left, now - Karn and Nicol Bolas. And they've been weakened too. Bolas has since been plotting to regain his lost power (which was part of why he split Alara into pieces, as a way to generate enough energy when it merged back together), and is basically the Big Bad of the setting.

And now Phyrexia is back as well, although without the Ineffable, and they aren't black-only anymore to boot. They conquered Mirrodin and also temporarily enslaved Karn with their corrupting influence.

He's since gotten better thanks to Venser sacrificing himself to purify him, but Mirrodin is basically lost, although there seems to be at least one faction of Phyrexians who are willing to let the rebel Mirrans live in peace rather than forcibly convert them - the Red faction led by Praetor Urabrask, which is unsurprising when you consider red is the color of passion and freedom of choice. The other Praetors are very Phyrexian though.

Right now Innistrad is a plane based on gothic horror stories - werewolves, vampires, Frankenstein's monster types... but I don't know much about that.

This is the condensed version. I'll let you imagine how long and complicated the full version is.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#5
Ha, I dunno, that seems like it can be summed up (not entirely accurately) as 'Urza is a katamari of disaster' and the consequences of his actions are still being played out.
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#6
Inaba said:
Ha, I dunno, that seems like it can be summed up (not entirely accurately) as 'Urza is a katamari of disaster' and the consequences of his actions are still being played out.
That is actually a pretty accurate summary. Pretty much everything bad in Dominarian history is at least partially Urza's fault...
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#7
How much of Urza carried over Karn anyways? I recall that the might-stone and weak-stone ended up in Karn's head along with the other pieces of the Legacy weapon (man that thing was fun in ten-player games, expensive and cost-ineffective as hell, but fun), but did Urza's and Gerrard's consciousnesses carry over?
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#8
Inaba said:
How much of Urza carried over Karn anyways? I recall that the might-stone and weak-stone ended up in Karn's head along with the other pieces of the Legacy weapon (man that thing was fun in ten-player games, expensive and cost-ineffective as hell, but fun), but did Urza's and Gerrard's consciousnesses carry over?
Thankfully, no. Last thing we needed was Gayrard's personality carrying over to Karn. >_>
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#9
To be honest, I remember very little about Gerrard other than that his card was kinda blah, though I suppose that's pretty telling in and of itself.

In regards to planeswalkers (I'm assuming that the scenario is calling for the newer variety) running around in Nasuverse, is it answered anywhere about what sort of connection is needed for the planeswalker to call up mana from the land? Does the planeswalker need to develop an emotional attachment? Some sort of ritual? Metaphysical ownership?

Your scenario certainly proposed that whatever it is that lets planewalkers call up mana from the land can be attenuated or outright cut off across planes and that they have difficulties calling up mana from the Nasu-verse, why might this be so and in theory, is it a problem that can be surmounted with oodles of research/attuning/other-magi-babble?
 

Epsilon

Well-Known Member
#10
There needs to be omakes where MTG rules dictate EVERYTHING in the Holy Grail War.

"I'm sorry but you can only use that Noble Phantasm when it's your Upkeep."
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#11
I'll point out that thanks to Caster in Fate/Zero, the Nasuverse is canonically a part of the Lovecraft Mythos, and it actually fits, too, when you consider that Akasha and the Throne of Heroes are basically Yog-Sothoth. The whole Type-[Planet Name] fits in when you consider that both Lovecraft and the Nasuverse have different planets and regions of space working on different metaphysical principles.

It also means that the Nasuverse does have summoning magic. It's just that other than "the souls of dead people" and "the more benevolent Divine Spirits", there's not much sane people would actually want to summon. Maybe nightgaunts and ghouls, off of the top of my head.
 

MinusMagnus

Well-Known Member
#12
I think that the dificulties a planeswalker may have with taking mana from the Nasuverse would have less to do with how they do/did it anywhere else and more to do with the fact that the planet itself is one pissed off old lady that would rather let her rabid dog kill her children than to let then play around with magiks.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#13
To be fair, Gaia has good reason to be pissed considering that humans are killing it through their actions. I haven't the slightest clue how that works in Nasu-verse metaphysics, but I do recall that Notes starts with Gaia calling in the Archetypes as a last gesture of spite before shuffling off of the mortal coil.
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#14
Also, as for what it takes to forge a mana bond, I found <a href='http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtgcom/daily/db22' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>this</a> with a quick Google search. It's probably safe to say that the Matou Mansion's basement and the park where the fire started would probably be pretty potent sources of Black mana. There might also be a few less-pure sources of Blue and White mana as well, though I doubt there's much Green or Red mana available there, though there's definitely places on Earth where those mana sources are present.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#15
Hm, I wonder what sort of mana cities produce?

I recall that certain man-made sites and institutions seemed to be based on their predominant character. For example, the Tolarian Academy is a rather infamous legendary land that produces blue mana. Might it be reasonable to assume that a planeswalker would be able to draw on all five colors of mana however diluted from the sites of a sufficiently large city?
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#16
nick012000 said:
I'll point out that thanks to Caster in Fate/Zero, the Nasuverse is canonically a part of the Lovecraft Mythos, and it actually fits, too, when you consider that Akasha and the Throne of Heroes are basically Yog-Sothoth. The whole Type-[Planet Name] fits in when you consider that both Lovecraft and the Nasuverse have different planets and regions of space working on different metaphysical principles.

It also means that the Nasuverse does have summoning magic. It's just that other than "the souls of dead people" and "the more benevolent Divine Spirits", there's not much sane people would actually want to summon. Maybe nightgaunts and ghouls, off of the top of my head.
Considering the Eldrazi in Magic the Gathering are basically lawyer-friendly Cthulhu mythos creatures, I don't see how that excludes the possibility of the above setup.

Just saying...

To be fair, Gaia has good reason to be pissed considering that humans are killing it through their actions. I haven't the slightest clue how that works in Nasu-verse metaphysics, but I do recall that Notes starts with Gaia calling in the Archetypes as a last gesture of spite before shuffling off of the mortal coil.
Dominaria's spirit, Titania (also sometimes referred to as Gaea), wasn't much better. When Urza sank Argoth under the waves during the Brothers' War, she threw a massive fit and nearly killed everything LEFT in an attempt to take revenge.

It also shows in the 'help' Dominaria sent during the Phyrexian invasion. You know the Kavu? Yeah, they indiscriminately ate everything, both Phyrexians and humans. It was sort of Gaea's way of giving Urza the finger while still helping out. Sure she'd help kill Phyrexians, but she made no promises to only have her pets eat THEM. And Kavu found Dominarians very tasty. :snigger:

Hm, I wonder what sort of mana cities produce?

I recall that certain man-made sites and institutions seemed to be based on their predominant character. For example, the Tolarian Academy is a rather infamous legendary land that produces blue mana. Might it be reasonable to assume that a planeswalker would be able to draw on all five colors of mana however diluted from the sites of a sufficiently large city?
The Tolarian academy produced blue mana because it was built entirely on a very large island. The original Tolaria, from Legends, also produced blue mana and was a tropical island.

Cities in general either produce colorless mana, or colored mana if they are very strongly attuned to a certain color. The City of Brass was a notable exception in that it was the home of many Arabian Nights-themed creatures, and as such was aligned with all colors... but the city had a will of its own and very little inclination to let mages tap its mana, hence why it does damage when 'tapped'.

There needs to be omakes where MTG rules dictate EVERYTHING in the Holy Grail War.

"I'm sorry but you can only use that Noble Phantasm when it's your Upkeep."
Technically, all Servants have an upkeep cost, amusingly enough, so that fits right in with MtG...
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#17
Hm, I'd forgotten about Tolaria being situated on an island.

But it still seems to me that it is possible though unusual and possibly expensive as hell to create urban landscapes that produce colored mana. If I recall correctly, Ravnica as a setting was one enormous world-city that still managed to produce mana of the five colors. Theoretically, I don't see why a MtG magic user wouldn't be able to draw colored mana from something truly unusual like the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

Edit: Speaking of the big hungry armor-plated lizard things, were there any more Kavu introduced after the Invasion cycle?
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#18
Inaba said:
Hm, I'd forgotten about Tolaria being situated on an island.

But it still seems to me that it is possible though unusual and possibly expensive as hell to create urban landscapes that produce colored mana. If I recall correctly, Ravnica as a setting was one enormous world-city that still managed to produce mana of the five colors. Theoretically, I don't see why a MtG magic user wouldn't be able to draw colored mana from something truly unusual like the Hanging Gardens of Babylon.

Edit: Speaking of the big hungry armor-plated lizard things, were there any more Kavu introduced after the Invasion cycle?
Ravnica has been around for something like 20 thousand years though, and it's peculiar to boot, as nature has adapted to the city's presence. It's why there's some dryads that specialize in non-basic landwalk (Dryad Sophisticate)...

As for the Kavu, yeah there was one in Planar Chaos - Kavu Primarch.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#19
Hm . . . that creates the problem of determining the line where Nature can be considered to have adapted to the urban landscape.

Fluff-wise, is the mana that a magic user draws from one single landscape purely of one single color or predominantly of one color? For example, if a magic user has a connection to a mountain that is covered in deciduous woodland, does the user draw both red and green mana from that site? What if the example is a mountain that supports shrubs and nothing bigger in terms of vegetation? Does the ratio shift to more red or does the ratio become all red and no green?

Regarding the original proposal and MtG magic mechanics, please correct these assumptions if I'm wrong - magic can be taught and all magic users use mana - in which case, can the planeswalker teach humans (even mundanes) in the Nasu-verse to cast using MtG mechanics?
 

shout27

Well-Known Member
#20
That reminds me, I heard something about the more practitioners of a given type of magic the less powerful it becomes in the Nasu-verse, is that true or just a very simplified version of the way their magic system works?
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#21
Not 100% sure on this - but I think that's a distortion of a claim made in setting that modern humans are inferior to ancient humans because there are more magic users using up limited resources of magic. I'm almost certain it comes from Gilgamesh and that there's no evidence confirming his claim.

I've no idea how the different magical systems work though, other than a vague recollection that practitioners somehow manage to carve their systems onto reality which in turn lets them use their systems to influence reality.
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#22
Inaba said:
Hm . . . that creates the problem of determining the line where Nature can be considered to have adapted to the urban landscape.

Fluff-wise, is the mana that a magic user draws from one single landscape purely of one single color or predominantly of one color? For example, if a magic user has a connection to a mountain that is covered in deciduous woodland, does the user draw both red and green mana from that site? What if the example is a mountain that supports shrubs and nothing bigger in terms of vegetation? Does the ratio shift to more red or does the ratio become all red and no green?
Read the link I posted. It depends on the meaning of the site in question. A generic mountain probably isn't going to produce much mana at all; it lacks the meaning that allows a mana bond. Mount Saint Helens, on the other hand, probably would produce both Green and Red mana, because of its violent eruption and the resurgence of life soon afterwards.

As for cities and urban environments, it depends on the meaning of the site. Wall Street, for instance, would almost certainly be a font of Black mana thanks to the dog-eat-dog nature of capitalism and the corruption often associated with corporate bigwigs. The Arlington National Cemetery and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier would be fonts of White mana, because of their nature as symbols of duty, honor, and sacrifice. MIT, Harvard, the Google Headquarters, and similar institutions would be fonts of Blue mana, because of their nature as institutions of learning and progress. The Statue of Liberty would be a font of Red mana as a result of its association with freedom, as would the Hollywood sign because of its association with creativity.

I can't think of any urban fonts of Green mana, but I would imagine that places like the Amazon Rainforest and the Great Barrier Reef would be massive sources of it. Places like Uluru and Stonehenge might also work, because of their association with nature worshipping rituals.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#23
nick012000 said:
Read the link I posted. It depends on the meaning of the site in question. A generic mountain probably isn't going to produce much mana at all; it lacks the meaning that allows a mana bond. Mount Saint Helens, on the other hand, probably would produce both Green and Red mana, because of its violent eruption and the resurgence of life soon afterwards.

As for cities and urban environments, it depends on the meaning of the site. Wall Street, for instance, would almost certainly be a font of Black mana thanks to the dog-eat-dog nature of capitalism and the corruption often associated with corporate bigwigs. The Arlington National Cemetery and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier would be fonts of White mana, because of their nature as symbols of duty, honor, and sacrifice. MIT, Harvard, the Google Headquarters, and similar institutions would be fonts of Blue mana, because of their nature as institutions of learning and progress. The Statue of Liberty would be a font of Red mana as a result of its association with freedom, as would the Hollywood sign because of its association with creativity.

I can't think of any urban fonts of Green mana, but I would imagine that places like the Amazon Rainforest and the Great Barrier Reef would be massive sources of it. Places like Uluru and Stonehenge might also work, because of their association with nature worshipping rituals.
Not quite what I meant - the question was whether the color of mana that a site produces is an all-or-nothing phenomenon. For example, does the Great Barrier Reef produce green mana or does it also produce quantities of blue mana? Do all landscapes produce multiple colors and are the mono-colored production sites in the game itself simply abstractions to remove needless complexity?

In game, there are (obviously) land cards that produce multiple colors of mana. Salt marshes, for example, apparently produce both blue and black mana. My train of thought was questioning whether this was true of all landscapes, with the provision that most lands simply produced so little mana other than their predominant color that it wasn't worth modelling in the game itself.
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
#24
Inaba said:
nick012000 said:
Read the link I posted. It depends on the meaning of the site in question. A generic mountain probably isn't going to produce much mana at all; it lacks the meaning that allows a mana bond. Mount Saint Helens, on the other hand, probably would produce both Green and Red mana, because of its violent eruption and the resurgence of life soon afterwards.

As for cities and urban environments, it depends on the meaning of the site. Wall Street, for instance, would almost certainly be a font of Black mana thanks to the dog-eat-dog nature of capitalism and the corruption often associated with corporate bigwigs. The Arlington National Cemetery and the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier would be fonts of White mana, because of their nature as symbols of duty, honor, and sacrifice. MIT, Harvard, the Google Headquarters, and similar institutions would be fonts of Blue mana, because of their nature as institutions of learning and progress. The Statue of Liberty would be a font of Red mana as a result of its association with freedom, as would the Hollywood sign because of its association with creativity.

I can't think of any urban fonts of Green mana, but I would imagine that places like the Amazon Rainforest and the Great Barrier Reef would be massive sources of it. Places like Uluru and Stonehenge might also work, because of their association with nature worshipping rituals.
Not quite what I meant - the question was whether the color of mana that a site produces is an all-or-nothing phenomenon. For example, does the Great Barrier Reef produce green mana or does it also produce quantities of blue mana? Do all landscapes produce multiple colors and are the mono-colored production sites in the game itself simply abstractions to remove needless complexity?

In game, there are (obviously) land cards that produce multiple colors of mana. Salt marshes, for example, apparently produce both blue and black mana. My train of thought was questioning whether this was true of all landscapes, with the provision that most lands simply produced so little mana other than their predominant color that it wasn't worth modelling in the game itself.
I think it has to do with the quality of the mana produced; most places that produce high-quality mana that would allow powerful spells to be cast would likely do so predominantly one color, because the site's meaning is likely to be predominantly focused on one event or aspect of that site. You're not going to get good-quality mana if the meaning of the site is confused or vague.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#25
Yes, that's more or less the interpretation that I consider the most probable - the purest colored mana require sites that possess strong connections to that color and sites that are balanced and strong enough to produce pure mana of more than one color are rare as hell.
 
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