Nasuverse Fate/Gathering Night

Shirou's ideal was to actually save everyone at first - he is what Kiritsugu was before reality bitchslapped him in the face with a steel gauntlet. MoS Shirou pretty much follows Kiritsugu's same path, yes - and Kiritsugu was definitely blue/white. Those colors are more or less defined by the 'sacrifice the few to save the many' thing. To a UW character, that's not only perfectly acceptable, but also the only morally sound action - to save the few over the many, even if saving the few merely gives a chance the many could die, is completely unacceptable statistically.

Unfortunately, those kinds of characters are severely stunted emotionally. They refuse to care, either because they consider emotions to be pointless baggage that get in the way of dispensing justice, or because they believe one should not be biased either way when doing something as meaningful as sealing someone else's fate - someone who does such a thing should have a perfectly neutral, analytical mind, untainted by emotion.

In a way, Blue/White characters like Kiritsugu and MoS Shirou are tragic. They end up losing part of what makes them human for the sake of being impartial and capable of making decisions without being influenced.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
GenocideHeart said:
He had to let go of his old, dead ideal and embrace a new one, dedicating himself to it... and he had to make that choice right there and then. Stand for justice even over one's own feelings, or cling to his own feelings and stand against the world for the sake of the one he loved.
What are you talking about?

If you seriously believe that murdering an innocent girl in cold blood for doing absolutely nothing wrong is "justice" then you have a seriously fucked-up sense of justice.

Anyway, this is a totally pointless argument. I know too little about MtG to really argue alignments and, whilst I think that your assertion that HF Shirou is selfish is an utterly ludicrous one it's pretty clear that you're not going to accept that, so it's just not worth bothering to even try.

shioran toushin said:
he came to the conclusion that the Risks of something Bad happening outweighted the pros of allowing Sakura to live, OTOH he defered the fate of Sakura to Rin, if she suddenly decided to take a risk and allow Sakura to live a bit more then Shiro would have allowed that, until she became a greater risk (as it happened when the Shadow!AM fully took control of her), then he would be the one to terminate the threat.
Erm, what?

Show me one piece of evidence that says he "deferred the decision to Rin". He was quite clearly intent on killing Sakura and, had Rin not done so, he would have done it himself.

and as for Following his ideal, did you not pay any little amount of atention onhow his ideal worked?
Shirou/Kiri: 'To be a hero'---'To save someone/everyone'
Kirei: wanting to save someone implies that you want the other to be in trouble first
Archer: I had to kill ozens to save hundreds
if Killing someone also saves lifes (plural) then the action is accord to his ideal, and that was stated in the VN mike.
It's quite impressive how you can contradict yourself in the same paragraph.

Shirou's ideal is to save everyone, not to kill one to save many. He does not ever accept that it's OK to kill someone unless it is entirely unavoidable and will immediately save the lives of others. And even then he gives said person every chance.
 
Hey guys, what's going....on....

What, again? At least Shirou is a far more interesting subject.

I just played Magic again for the first time in years, and reading this definitely makes me want to work harder to rediscover my own deck instead of borrowing my friend's. Even if his White/Black deck was a blast to play as.
 

nick012000

Well-Known Member
Cherry_lover said:
Anyway, this is a totally pointless argument. I know too little about MtG to really argue alignments and, whilst I think that your assertion that HF Shirou is selfish is an utterly ludicrous one it's pretty clear that you're not going to accept that, so it's just not worth bothering to even try.
For what it's worth, Black/Red heroes are pretty common in shonen anime; compare Shirou in Heaven's Feel to Ichigo Kurosaki, the entire fucking Dai Gurren-dan, or Naruto Uzumaki before he got on his "I'm gonna bring about world peace" trip. Basically, every Shonen hero whose main reason of fighting is for his Nakama? Black/Red, almost certainly.

Incidentally, White-Blue villains are fairly common as well. Tobidara, the Anti-Spirals, SEELE, the Brittanian emperor in Code Geass, et cetera.
 
then tell me Mike, where is stated that Shirou didn't respect Rin's choice and was
quite clearly intent on killing Sakura and, had Rin not done so, he would have done it himself.
as for the Kill one to save many also works within his ideal to be a superhero/ally of justice, save people, directly from the VN:
""
I know what's right.
The thing that keeps me alive.
I can't turn my back on the thing that has kept me alive.
I can't let my conviction waver.
For the sake of everyone who could not be saved, I can't let any more people share in their fate.
The man who turned away from the Einzberns for something he believed was right.
I've chosen the same path.
Ilya has been betrayed twice now.
Not choosing Sakura also means not choosing Ilya.
he choose his ideal over his own humanity.
and from Fate/Zero on Kiritsugu

The Ghoul Bees raided towards the passengers one by one, and as every single passenger had become a Ghoul, were the situation deemed too risky and Kiritsugu shot the plane down before it could land, sacrificing Natalia in the process. In their last conversation via radio, he admitted that she was like a mother to him. It was then that he became disillusioned with his ideal of becoming a 'hero of justice', as it was impossible to save one person without losing another. However, he continued to fight for this dream, to ensure that everything he had given up would not be in vain.
can you see the parallel situation?
hell i'll give you the EMIYA version of them following their ideal (and feeling betrayed by it, but they were still true to it)
In order to save a hundred people dying in front of him in a calamity, for the sake of saving the lives that his eyes could see and for the sake of saving even more lives as a Heroic Spirit after his death, he made a contract with the world and became a hero. Although he desperately fought to end a war, he was branded as the mastermind behind that war and executed. His belief that he would continue to save many people as a Heroic Spirit didnÆt come to pass, but rather he was made to clean up after human actions and forced to kill many more people to save humanity as a whole instead. After being shown human self-destruction and forced to oppose his own ideals countless times, he began to deny himself and his ideal.
and for fuck sake Mike HF was obscenely selfish in chooosing Sakura, that made him fucking human, even if he knew that that choice was extremely risky (for Sakura's health and Zoken manipulation at first and latter because AM) and when push came to shove instead of anihilating Sakura, who was completely dominated by AM, as it was the most eficient solution aviable and with less overall repercussions, he still choose to use the very High risk- High Reward method of using Rule Breaker, not even knowing if would work right, not to mention his death duel with Kirei and his distraction/ambush ove Alt!Saber, all in all HF Shirou is the most Selfish representation of his characters in all the Visual Novel, why? because he Risked everyone's Life on the remote chance that Rule Breaker worked on an Angra Manyu Fueled Sakura to prevent All Evils of The World from being born. instead of terminating her and AM using the Jeweled Sword.

but is fine if you can't accept that, just don't go force feeding us your PoV everytime we disagree on something and you feel that we are in the wrong and must be enlightened.

Note: i am not saying that Shiro was wrong in doing what he did (except in the bad endings when he ies, and no, MoS is not one of those endings) or that i would behave ifferently if i was in his place, i am just saying that HF Shirou was the most Selfish of the 4 routes:
Fate
UBW
MoS
HF
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
shioran toushin said:
then tell me Mike, where is stated that Shirou didn't respect Rin's choice and was
quite clearly intent on killing Sakura and, had Rin not done so, he would have done it himself.
Where does it say that he wasn't?

I guess it's a matter for interpretation, ultimately. However, the fact that he offered to kill her in Rin's place certainly suggests that he was willing to and, further, it does not fit with Shirou's character at all to be so passive about it. If he's genuinely decided that Sakura needs to die to fulfill his ideals, then he will ensure she does indeed die, regardless of Rin's intentions. If he hasn't, then he will protect her with everything he has.

Honestly, I'd say that your argument actually makes him seem worse. At least my belief has him reluctantly sacrificing an innocent to potentially protect more. Your version has him not even bothering to make a decision on the matter, and deferring it to Rin, whose decision (at least nominally) has absolutely nothing to do with "protecting people".

as for the Kill one to save many also works within his ideal to be a superhero/ally of justice, save people, directly from the VN:
""
I know what's right.
The thing that keeps me alive.
I can't turn my back on the thing that has kept me alive.
I can't let my conviction waver.
For the sake of everyone who could not be saved, I can't let any more people share in their fate.
The man who turned away from the Einzberns for something he believed was right.
I've chosen the same path.
Ilya has been betrayed twice now.
Not choosing Sakura also means not choosing Ilya.
he choose his ideal over his own humanity.
and from Fate/Zero on Kiritsugu

The Ghoul Bees raided towards the passengers one by one, and as every single passenger had become a Ghoul, were the situation deemed too risky and Kiritsugu shot the plane down before it could land, sacrificing Natalia in the process. In their last conversation via radio, he admitted that she was like a mother to him. It was then that he became disillusioned with his ideal of becoming a 'hero of justice', as it was impossible to save one person without losing another. However, he continued to fight for this dream, to ensure that everything he had given up would not be in vain.
can you see the parallel situation?
Erm, Kiritsugu is not Shirou. He may well have turned into someone who took the "kill one to save many" approach, but that was not his original ideal, and nor is it Shirou's. It may have been the path that Kiritsugu ended up following, but it's not the one he wanted Shirou to follow and nor is it the ideal that Shirou ended up believing in.

The whole point of an "ideal" is that it is exactly that. An ideal situation that could never get any better. Killing one to save many can never be an "ideal", because no-one would choose to take such an action if they felt there was a better choice. It's simply an extremely cynical corruption of said ideal, and one which invariably causes the person adhering to it to break horribly, and also causes immeasurable suffering to anyone who knows them.

hell i'll give you the EMIYA version of them following their ideal (and feeling betrayed by it, but they were still true to it)
In order to save a hundred people dying in front of him in a calamity, for the sake of saving the lives that his eyes could see and for the sake of saving even more lives as a Heroic Spirit after his death, he made a contract with the world and became a hero. Although he desperately fought to end a war, he was branded as the mastermind behind that war and executed. His belief that he would continue to save many people as a Heroic Spirit didnÆt come to pass, but rather he was made to clean up after human actions and forced to kill many more people to save humanity as a whole instead. After being shown human self-destruction and forced to oppose his own ideals countless times, he began to deny himself and his ideal.
How does that in any way disagree with what I said?

Archer became a CG to save a hundred people. If he was genuinely only interested in killing one to save many, then he'd have abandoned them and gone off to save a larger number elsewhere. Further, if you look at it objectively Archer did save people as a CG, but the way that he did so goes completely against his true ideal, hence why he became disillusioned by the situation.

and for fuck sake Mike HF was obscenely selfish in chooosing Sakura, that made him fucking human, even if he knew that that choice was extremely risky (for Sakura's health and Zoken manipulation at first and latter because AM) and when push came to shove instead of anihilating Sakura, who was completely dominated by AM,á as it was the most eficient solution aviable and with less overall repercussions, he still choose to use the very High risk- High Reward method of using Rule Breaker, notá even knowing if would work right, not to mention his death duel with Kirei and his distraction/ambush ove Alt!Saber
Sorry, but refusing to murder an innocent person is not "obscenely selfish", it's just plain right. Sakura deserves a chance to live, and HF Shirou is the only one who gave her that.

all in all HF Shirou is the most Selfish representation of his characters in all the Visual Novel, why? because he Risked everyone's Life on the remote chance that Rule Breaker worked on an Angra Manyu Fueled Sakura to prevent All Evils of The World from being born. instead of terminating her and AM using the Jeweled Sword.

but is fine if you can't accept that, just don't go force feeding us your PoV everytime we disagree on something and you feel that we are in the wrong and must be enlightened.

Note: i am not saying that Shiro was wrong in doing what he did (except in the bad endings when he ies, and no, MoS is not one of those endings) or that i would behave ifferently if i was in his place, i am just saying that HF Shirou was the most Selfish of the 4 routes:
Fate
UBW
MoS
HF
I never claimed that HF Shirou wasn't the "most selfish of the 4 routes", but that's not the same as calling him selfish, because Shirou is generally an extremely unselfish person.

Even in HF, he still risks a hell of a lot to protect people, and it's not only Sakura. If he was genuinely being selfish, he'd have let the world burn, rather than spending every night hunting down the shadow and trying to prevent it killing despite having no idea what is causing it and no way to actually stop it.
 
when Sakura murdered Shinji she stopped being innocent and guiltless (it was pretty much poetic justice and self-defense i agree) and after it happened she broke and unleashed her AM powered self on the world, as much as you say that what shirou did was right, it also would be right to have killed her right after with the JSoZ because if they hadn't (or Rule Breaker had not worked) then the whole world would be fucked. (at least until someone hits AM with BB)
but that's it Mike, i'll let you with your own judgment.
 
Cherry_lover said:
Sorry, but refusing to murder an innocent person is not "obscenely selfish", it's just plain right. Sakura deserves a chance to live, and HF Shirou is the only one who gave her that.
And that would be all nice and good if her being an 'innocent person' was the REASON why Shirou refused to kill her.

Except, of course, that IT WAS NOT THE REASON WHY. Shirou blatantly admitted he couldn't kill her because HIS FEELINGS FOR HER prevented him from doing so.

However you spin it, not eliminating a person whom two distinct people who know what the fuck they are talking about clearly labeled as a bomb that could go off at any moment and kill a lot of people at the whim of the single most amoral character in the whole game, SOLELY because you're too lovey dovey to do it even though you admit clearly that it'd be the sensible thing to do... is selfish. End of story. Shirou did it just as much for his sake as for Sakura's.

If you can't even understand why it would be selfish, you are lacking perspective more than we do. It's not about morals anymore then - hell even Shirou in his monologuing blatantly admits what he's doing is selfish because he's doing it for the wrong reasons, if you're going to call Nasu and his narration liars, then there's a problem here, and it's not mine.
 

Archanon

Well-Known Member
I don't know why you're even trying to argue with Mike, he's long since proved that he's completely unreasonable on this topic.
 
Archanon said:
I don't know why you're even trying to argue with Mike, he's long since proved that he's completely unreasonable on this topic.
While true, I have to admit that he is provoking some interesting discussion.

Not from his side, god no. We've heard his thoughts on the subject many times before and we'll likely hear it many times in the future. But GH is pretty interesting to listen to, especially when actual Magic makes its way into the discussion.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
shioran toushin said:
when Sakura murdered Shinji she stopped being innocent and guiltless (it was pretty much poetic justice and self-defense i agree) and after it happened she broke and unleashed her AM powered self on the world, as much as you say that what shirou did was right, it also would be right to have killed her right after with the JSoZ because if they hadn't (or Rule Breaker had not worked) then the whole world would be fucked. (at least until someone hits AM with BB)
but that's it Mike, i'll let you with your own judgment.
Not really. Sakura was not in any way responsible for what happened when she was Dark, because she was not sane, and (as you pointed out), killing Shinji (and Zouken) was self-defense. Further, killing her wasn't really an option at that point, at least not until the point where Shirou could save her just as easily. If Shirou had tried to do so, then Rider would have killed him.
 
I've gone over Magic: the Gathering's recent history, and noticed there's at least one legendary creature who could easily be displaced to the FSN verse. Namely:



Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind, parun of Ravnica's Izzet Guild.

At the end of Dissension, Niv-Mizzet faced down the rampaging Nephilim, and destroyed two before being injured by an unexpected attack. Even then, he swatted aside further attacks effortlessly, then suddenly claimed he was bored with the whole thing and just up and left.

And I mean left. The link to his Firemind, which high ranking Izzet possessed, went missing. Not dead - they could have told if he died, as he'd have taken them all with him by proxy due to how deep the link is - just missing. The goblin engineer Crixizix eventually figured out that the only way for that to happen would be if Niv-Mizzet left the plane entirely... meaning either he has a Planeswalker's Spark, or he's so goddamn smart (and he's THAT smart for sure) that he devised a spell or other way to planeswalk without it.

Having Niv-Mizzet appear in FSN would change a lot of dynamics depending on when he appears. Aside from how he's over 15000 years old (and thus has more knowledge stored in his mind alone than arguably the entirety of Earth together can muster up, most of it from a foreign plane), and he's a genius at basically anything requiring creativity or logic (about the only thing he fails at is daydreaming, and only because he deems it a waste of time - he prefers to spend that time inventing new contraptions), he's also Blue/Red, both in personality (amazing analytical mind coupled with a short temper and arrogance the likes of which even Dark Schneider would be hard pressed to match) and in magical prowess.

More importantly, he's also a dragon (something which Saber would take note of, I assume), and can shapeshift (which can let him blend in to avoid annoying investigations by pesky humans). And he loves to prove his superiority in every possible way, be it by, say, randomly saving some kid from a giant fire that killed his family (hi there Shirou!), and possibly rebuilding him even better in case he needs it, or be it winning a Grail War just to prove he can.

It'd be interesting to see the dynamics of a Shirou raised by such an enormously arrogant (with good cause admittedly) and mad tinkerer-happy person as Niv-Mizzet. And him being a dragon is bound to turn more than a few heads among both Masters and Servants should word get out. Plus, there's the unique Izzet gamut of summons and magic that he could either use or impart upon Shirou.

Of course, with Shirou not being raised by Emiya, there'd be no 'EMIYA', since that name is kind of tied to the one raised by Kiritsugu. But Shirou, no last name given, would still be Shirou. And knowing Niv-Mizzet, the potential for magic within him, both from prana and from the Reality Marble, would pique his interest - he's not new to handpicking and nurturing promising talents, as the Izzet guild champions, the married couple of Tibor and Lumia, prove - he trained them in person.

The question, at this point, would be how different Shirou would be. Of course, being exposed to someone like Niv-Mizzet, his whole 'hero who saves everyone' shtick would be mostly canned - Niv-Mizzet would think that whole thing is pointless drivel and strive to eradicate most of it from the kid's mindset. Sure, fight to save others, but only if there's nothing better to do and certainly not for nothing or at the risk of one's life - unless one's pride is on the line.

The mental changes might however be secondary to the physical ones. As Niv-Mizzet doesn't conveniently have Avalon, he might have to physically rebuild Shirou's body, since he was mortally injured in the fire. Which might be where the magical alloy Niv-Mizzet created, Mizzium, comes in play. Mizzium is impervious to fire, for one thing, and can change its shape for another (think the T-1000, only more solid looking and a bath of molten metal won't even singe it). It may make for a rather... interesting looking Shirou.

These are just a few thoughts. I will admit I am a fan of the Izzet guild and their chain-casting mechanic, Replicate, so when I noticed Niv-Mizzet's state is listed as MIA, I couldn't resist.

Thoughts?
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
Off the top of my head, Shirou wouldn't have a reality marble. The origin and element of sword which are responsible for Unlimited Blade Words were the result of Avalon being implanted in him. He needs Kiritsugu in order for it to happen.

You could still do it, but you'd have a high possibility of the fic being Shirou in name only unless you can find a story related reason to give him a similar ability to UBW and the outlook on life he has.
 
ttestagr said:
Off the top of my head, Shirou wouldn't have a reality marble. The origin and element of sword which are responsible for Unlimited Blade Words were the result of Avalon being implanted in him. He needs Kiritsugu in order for it to happen.

You could still do it, but you'd have a high possibility of the fic being Shirou in name only unless you can find a story related reason to give him a similar ability to UBW and the outlook on life he has.
Wouldn't having Mizzium grafted to his body (remember, it's heavily magical metal) be a possible catalyst for a Reality Marble? It's my understanding that Avalon merely determined the way in which it manifested (a sword's scabbard causes a panorama of swords).

Also, I earlier suggested that Reality marbles may be the way in which the Planeswalker's Spark manifested in the Nasuverse due to how its intrinsic magic split apart from the mainstream Magicverse after it was isolated. If that's the case, then an actual Planeswalker should at least know how to activate a dormant Spark even without a catalyst.
 
there is always an EMIYA, thanks to the Nasuverse cluster of realities and just how the Counter Force works, and unless Rin does her summon Perfect or has another catalyst she'll always will get EMIYA.
OTOH there won't be an auto Saber!Arturia for Shirou as he doesn't have Avalon grafted into him and thus no Sword origin and no Unlimited Blade Works (tough with the distortion and lack of self awareness plus his imprint he still rtetains his ability or potential to form a Reality Marble), that gives you a whole shitton of oportunities there as Shirou will imprint on the Dragon and if you wish to give him dragon traits then his servant (if he gets one) can be more varied as there are many heroes and canon Nasu characters that also share that.

and unless Niv wants for him or Shirou to participate in the war then Shirou has to stumble upon it and a 'conveniently' placed summoning circle. (because Niv can recreate it and both of them wouldn't even need a servant to fight on the HGW).

and a few questions:
Kiritsugu died in the fire after finding noone or he 'rescued' Ilya?
Sakura is the same or there are changes?
what about Rin?
 
shioran toushin said:
there is always an EMIYA, thanks to the Nasuverse cluster of realities and just how the Counter Force works, and unless Rin does her summon Perfect or has another catalyst she'll always will get EMIYA.
OTOH there won't be an auto Saber!Arturia for Shirou as he doesn't have Avalon grafted into him and thus no Sword origin and no Unlimited Blade Works (tough with the distortion and lack of self awareness plus his imprint he still rtetains his ability or potential to form a Reality Marble), that gives you a whole shitton of oportunities there as Shirou will imprint on the Dragon and if you wish to give him dragon traits then his servant (if he gets one) can be more varied as there are many heroes and canon Nasu characters that also share that.
That's an interesting variation. I was more thinking of someone else summoning Arturia, though. But yeah, with a dragon imprint (and moreover, a strong tendency towards fire and water magic, as well as gadgeteering as a background), there's so many possibilities for which Servant an Izzet-influenced Shirou could call upon it's almost not funny.

and unless Niv wants for him or Shirou to participate in the war then Shirou has to stumble upon it and a 'conveniently' placed summoning circle. (because Niv can recreate it and both of them wouldn't even need a servant to fight on the HGW).
The simplest explanation: Niv-Mizzet is arrogant to the extreme. Even in Dissension, he didn't HAVE to join the fight against the Nephilim, as the Boros and Selesnya troops were holding them off - he did it purely to show off and prove how awesome he was. If he caught wind of the Grail War, he'd either make Shirou try to win it or try to win i9t himself, just to show off how badass his disciple/he himself are. And also because he's an insane magical tinkerer, smart all you want but not sane, and the Grail would pique his interest due to its nature. Someone like him would want to get his mitts on it, not for a wish, but to study it.

and a few questions:
Kiritsugu died in the fire after finding noone or he 'rescued' Ilya?
Sakura is the same or there are changes?
what about Rin?
I was thinking Kiritsugu rescuing Ilya, and the rest mostly staying the same - while Shirou may have little to learn from school, little knowledge beats no knowledge, and Niv-Mizzet is admittedly unfamiliar with the Nasuverse, so school would be useful to fill in the gaps that Niv can-t teach Shirou. Most of his education would be homeschooled, though, and way more exotic than what he gets in canon - not to mention that Niv-Mizzet wouldn't halfass it on the magic training like Kiritsugu did.

Meeting those he knows can still happen - aside from how Niv may consider them useful due to their magical potential, Rin goes to the same school, and the Matou family would probably set off some alarm in his head.

There'd be changes - level of intimacy with others, Shirou's knowledge level - but I'm assuming that all in all, Shirou would naturally be inclined to altruism - basically, Kiritsugu just reinforces what's already there - and so there'd still be something of original!Shirou left. Like say, stubborn muleheadedness. >_>
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
GenocideHeart said:
ttestagr said:
Off the top of my head, Shirou wouldn't have a reality marble.? The origin and element of sword which are responsible for Unlimited Blade Words were the result of Avalon being implanted in him.? He needs Kiritsugu in order for it to happen.?

You could still do it, but you'd have a high possibility of the fic being Shirou in name only unless you can find a story related reason to give him a similar ability to UBW and the outlook on life he has.
Wouldn't having Mizzium grafted to his body (remember, it's heavily magical metal) be a possible catalyst for a Reality Marble? It's my understanding that Avalon merely determined the way in which it manifested (a sword's scabbard causes a panorama of swords).

Also, I earlier suggested that Reality marbles may be the way in which the Planeswalker's Spark manifested in the Nasuverse due to how its intrinsic magic split apart from the mainstream Magicverse after it was isolated. If that's the case, then an actual Planeswalker should at least know how to activate a dormant Spark even without a catalyst.
The thing though, if you go into the metaphysics of it, was that Shirou was essentially reborn in that fire with an entirely new soul. That is the only possible way for an origin to change. The way I see it, so don't take my word as utter truth, was that because it was the object that brought the body back from the brink that caused Avalon to change his origin and allow a new soul, not just being a highly magical object. After all, both Irisviel and Kiritsugu had it in their bodies in the same way and did not have that happen to them. The distortion that allows a reality marble in a normal human is amazingly rare, only happening 7 times throughout human history.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
I'm not all that familiar with Niv-Mizzet, so I've a few questions about this scenario - why would the dragon rescue Shirou and how does he come across him? Does he investigate the source of the fire and chance upon the kid in the flames, taking him in as a specimen so that he can learn more about the incident? Does the dragon warm up to the kid over time or is it more of a professional interest?

In sum, who is Niv-Mizzet and what kind of person is he? I gathered that he's proud and spontaneous, but what kind of goals does he possess and how does he go about achieving them? Does he learn for the sake of learning? Or is it for pride in his knowledge? Can he be unscrupulous in his pursuits or does he disdain such actions as beneath him? How does he treat his subordinates and what kind of relationship does he have with them?

That said, I don't feel that Shirou necessarily needs to have a reality marble in this scenario unless he's as single-minded as he is in canon.
 
him being reborn and imprinting assure us that his potential to form a RM is intact (it won't ever be UBW without Avalon, but the potential is there, as a RM is an alien comon sense and perception of reality)
TL;DR Every post-Fire shirou has the potential to form a RM because he is distorted, the important thing here is IF he will manifest it or not, it will go in the 'unused potential' category.
and Niv being Red-BLue laso assure us that while he is passionate he also is utterly logical in how to proceed.
 
Reality Marble

???? - Koyuu Kekkai

Innate Bounded Barrier. Originally the alien \"common sense\" possessed by the creatures called demons. Primarily a power that only demons and elementals possess. However, some of the greatest of magi have attained it through years and years of research.
Alien common sense of demons

????????? - Akuma no motsu joushiki

Reality Marbles. It's not so much the fact that Reality Marbles are natural abilities of demons, but the idea that Reality Marbles THEMSELVES are the natural perception of demons, that is their "common sense".

Oftentimes, the "common sense" idea ties in with themes in Light Novels, such as ESP. The reality (common sense) that you have is able to interfere in the reality (common sense) of others.
a distortion facilites the creation of RM, so if you can point me where i'm wrong and the source for it i'll be grateful
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
Ok. How about this.

Point me where in those did these words, in the following order, appeared:

distortion facilites the creation of RM
 
Inaba said:
I'm not all that familiar with Niv-Mizzet, so I've a few questions about this scenario - why would the dragon rescue Shirou and how does he come across him? Does he investigate the source of the fire and chance upon the kid in the flames, taking him in as a specimen so that he can learn more about the incident? Does the dragon warm up to the kid over time or is it more of a professional interest?

In sum, who is Niv-Mizzet and what kind of person is he? I gathered that he's proud and spontaneous, but what kind of goals does he possess and how does he go about achieving them? Does he learn for the sake of learning? Or is it for pride in his knowledge? Can he be unscrupulous in his pursuits or does he disdain such actions as beneath him? How does he treat his subordinates and what kind of relationship does he have with them?
Describing Niv-Mizzet is at the same time easy and hard. In essence, he's driven by his whims, but his whims focus almost entirely on creativity and knowledge. He IS the parun of the most technologically oriented guild in Ravnica, after all - if it's mechanical in Ravnica, the Izzet built it.

About the only time he can be unscrupolous is if a subject severely pissed him off with blatant incompetence - he's not above just frying anyone who screws up that badly. On the other hand, those who impress him are rewarded with the ability to tap directly into his monumental intellect and knowledge - it's called 'invoking the Firemind'. While normal minds cannot take the strain of the enormous cache of knowledge he has in his mind, they can function for a few minutes with a level of competency vaguely approaching his own - which is generally more than enough to deal with whatever problem is presently rearing its head.

Also, he has a keen interest in people with magical potential, which he can usually sense in people - the Izzet guild has the largest amount of cantrip casters of any Guild, and they specialized in spamming magic, literally - Replicate allows them to re-cast a spell for as long as they have mana to dump in paying its mana cost again.

One reason why he'd save Shirou is because he's looking to estabilish a foothold in the Nasuverse - the tech level of its world alone would prompt him to stop and examine it. And having a convenient minion that owes him might help.

Another reason is simply curiosity - for all intents and purposes that fire should've killed him, and Shirou surviving as long as he did may mean fate has more in store for him. Niv-Mizzet may simply want to see what happens.

And of course the fact a Grail War just ended means the whole area is permeated in magical forces. Saving the kid may be worth it just to see if he can get some information out of him about what happened.

Warming up to Shirou... not too likely unless he proves himself very intelligent. Even then, he'd warm up to him the way a teacher warms up to a prize student. But Niv-Mizzet isn't exactly emotional, besides his explosive tantrums. No parental love or anything in sight.

As for why he learns... it's pretty much out of stereotypical dragonic greed. But where other dragons hoard treasure, he hoards knowledge. And then he shares it just because he's vain enough to want people to bow to him in awe of how much he knows.

Yeah, uh... he's not precisely heroic. But he's at the same time simple and complex to deal with.
 
ah, Ok, wrong choice of words, a Distortion does not create RM, but having an alien common sense is required.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
GenocideHeart said:
Describing Niv-Mizzet is at the same time easy and hard. In essence, he's driven by his whims, but his whims focus almost entirely on creativity and knowledge. He IS the parun of the most technologically oriented guild in Ravnica, after all - if it's mechanical in Ravnica, the Izzet built it.

About the only time he can be unscrupolous is if a subject severely pissed him off with blatant incompetence - he's not above just frying anyone who screws up that badly. On the other hand, those who impress him are rewarded with the ability to tap directly into his monumental intellect and knowledge - it's called 'invoking the Firemind'. While normal minds cannot take the strain of the enormous cache of knowledge he has in his mind, they can function for a few minutes with a level of competency vaguely approaching his own - which is generally more than enough to deal with whatever problem is presently rearing its head.

Also, he has a keen interest in people with magical potential, which he can usually sense in people - the Izzet guild has the largest amount of cantrip casters of any Guild, and they specialized in spamming magic, literally - Replicate allows them to re-cast a spell for as long as they have mana to dump in paying its mana cost again.

One reason why he'd save Shirou is because he's looking to estabilish a foothold in the Nasuverse - the tech level of its world alone would prompt him to stop and examine it. And having a convenient minion that owes him might help.

Another reason is simply curiosity - for all intents and purposes that fire should've killed him, and Shirou surviving as long as he did may mean fate has more in store for him. Niv-Mizzet may simply want to see what happens.

And of course the fact a Grail War just ended means the whole area is permeated in magical forces. Saving the kid may be worth it just to see if he can get some information out of him about what happened.

Warming up to Shirou... not too likely unless he proves himself very intelligent. Even then, he'd warm up to him the way a teacher warms up to a prize student. But Niv-Mizzet isn't exactly emotional, besides his explosive tantrums. No parental love or anything in sight.

As for why he learns... it's pretty much out of stereotypical dragonic greed. But where other dragons hoard treasure, he hoards knowledge. And then he shares it just because he's vain enough to want people to bow to him in awe of how much he knows.

Yeah, uh... he's not precisely heroic. But he's at the same time simple and complex to deal with.
Sounds interesting, reminds me a little bit of the cranky scientist stereotype in places. Since Niv-Mizzet's a bit offhand and a good chunk of Shirou's canon character was a result of Kiritsugu, it does seem like Shirou won't turn out to be a copy of the dragon's ideals, meaning that there's a lot of leeway how the kid turns out depending on his interactions with other people. It does seem like the dragon's presence is going to result in a fairly different start-up to the Grail war though, since I can't quite picture the combination of his power and his passion not changing matters on the local scale at the least.
 
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