Nasuverse Fate/phoenix burning

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#26
Inaba said:
Not enough information to tell - an author can pretty much adjust the standards that the reality marble uses in judgement to custom-fit it for whatever is needed for the story that he or she wants to be told. Perhaps the reality marble is not so much correcting errors as it is karmic retribution - burning individuals based on the outcomes of their action rather than their personal character. Or perhaps the reality marble burns away thoughts and memories as it does meat and bone - starting at those memories and behaviors that transgress most against its code. Perhaps it burns away at an alcoholic's anger and shame before moving onto his or her lesser transgressions, until that person is a pure existence - an amnesiac blank slate awaiting the world's calligraphy.
Even then, it still wouldn't harm Sakura, because she's done nothing at all here.

Personally, I'd find it horribly amusing if the reality marble had outcome-based standards such that it burnt say, Arturia harsher than say, Medusa because the former has a significantly higher kill count due to her life as a successful warlord. It wouldn't fit canon or semi-canon Shirou very well considering that his nature is kind and pretty forgiving in most paths, but who's to say that the reality marble needs to be set in stone throughout the course of the story?
I don't see why that would be the case, though. No version of Shirou judges people on the "outcomes" of their actions, only on whether they are a current danger to innocents and whether they are an innocent person.

MoS!Shirou plus this reality marble would not be a pretty sight.
I dunno, really. MoS Shirou would have saved Sakura in a second if he felt it could be done without risking endangering others, just like he would save anyone else. With this RM, he actually could do that, so he'd see no need to kill her.

I'm honestly not sure what MoS Shirou with this RM would be like. His "ideal" doesn't really fit the whole concept of it at all well.

zeebee1 said:
Whether or not the worms had any benefit doesn't really matter. her body is likely used to them, so the sudden loss would be harmful. It would probably be like an addict going cold turkey.
It might have some negative effects, but nothing which comes even close to making it not worth trying. The only way it would not be worth trying is if it would kill her, and I don't think that is likely to be the case.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#27
To the first part, it sounds like brainwashing. It's like it removes the natural shame or guilt. If that's the case then Sakura wouldn't come out the same.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#28
Even then, it still wouldn't harm Sakura, because she's done nothing at all here.
We've agreed that there are real-world standards under which Sakura would be considered impure, though we've agreed that canon Shirou or even semi-canonical Shirou would not possess similar standards.

In regards to outcome-based standards, if I recall correctly, post-rescue Shirou was largely a blank slate and received much, if not all of his morals and beliefs from Kiritsugu - if Kiritsugu didn't rescue him and he developed his morals/beliefs/motives from someone/somewhere else, it's possible for him to develop outcome-based moral standards.

To the first part, it sounds like brainwashing. It's like it removes the natural shame or guilt. If that's the case then Sakura wouldn't come out the same.
To be precise, it's mind-wiping rather than brain-washing. I tend to interpret fire as re-newer as the 'fire that burns old growth to ashes so that new life may sprout', which is hardly a desirable outcome for the 'old growth'. Having said that though, I mostly view this part as a natural side effect of the reality marble if and only if it can burn intangible concepts in addition to tangible matter.

Although come to think of it, is the reality marble's judgement limited by the knowledge available to Shirou or is it actually omniscient in regards to its occupants and their statuses?
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#29
A Sakura who doesn't remember the pain in her life is left with basically nothing but memories of school and making Shirou breakfast. I guess she'd remember her time as Rin's sister, but the amount of memories that would be burned away would be massive.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#30
zeebee1 said:
A Sakura who doesn't remember the pain in her life is left with basically nothing but memories of school and making Shirou breakfast. I guess she'd remember her time as Rin's sister, but the amount of memories that would be burned away would be massive.
Right, if used long enough and fiercely enough, the variant of the reality marble that burned both tangible matter and intangible concepts would do exactly that. Arguably if that reality marble is used enough, it results in her death and leaves behind a not very good doppelganger/replica/something-along-those-lines.
 

Antimatter

Well-Known Member
#31
zeebee1 said:
A Sakura who doesn't remember the pain in her life is left with basically nothing but memories of school and making Shirou breakfast. I guess she'd remember her time as Rin's sister, but the amount of memories that would be burned away would be massive.
Maybe not, it could only burn out the painful parts, so she'd remember living with the Matou's but would have gaps around any of the abuses she suffered.

Alternatively, it could just burn away the mental scaring, leaving her with memories that are akin to trying to remember a dream. She'd know she had been abused, it just wouldn't feel like it was real.
 
#32
Put Sakura on standby: consider what would happen to Gilgamesh and Kotomine.

Gilgamesh could have the taint of the Grail burned out of him. If he can resist All The Evils of the World I don't see him fully reincarnating, but the corruption of the Grail? I can see that burning nicely.

I know Gil is supposed to be unable to be controlled by Command Spells of Grail mud, but there's a difference between his attitude in Fate/Zero and FSN, so I chalk it up to the Grail Mud constantly whispering to his subconscious. So while Gil can't be compelled to do something he would never do, the Grail Mud draws out Gil's arrogance and all around asshatery to their fullest measure.

It would take some specific circumstances for Shirou to purify Gil, have Gil realize and acknowledge it, and Shirou to live to tell the tale, but I'v never seen Gil 'purified' in an FSN story. Could be interesting. It'd certainly be new, and in a story like this I say that cram as much novelty into the story as you can.

As for Kotomine, he wanted AM to be born to see if what is naturally evil must always be evil, or if it could have been good. With Shirou's RM, however, he may not need AM to answer that question. If Kotomine was willing to be reincarnated, to give himself the proverbial second chance...well. New territory to be explored.

Hmm. Rider was once a goddess instead of a monster. Could Shirou reincarnate her and restore her lost Divinity? Perhaps, if her Divinity is still there but suppressed by her deeds in life and monstrous nature. If lost, I don't see how Shirou could restore it without somehow having a link to Akasha. Which, in itself, could be downright fascinating if it can be feasibly justified. I'd have to watch KnK again to plan this out. But Shirou being, on some level, aware of everything a person can be in all the infinite possible universes? Having the ability to draw certain qualities out of a person, but never being satisfied with what they become and therefore always encouraging new changes to their ever growing ire?

Wow that was a long tangent. I like the idea though.

Ilya? Perhaps, perhaps...it could let her survive the fifth Holy Grail War if it can be justified properly. I may think on this more later.

Brainstorm time: what kind of new ideals can we give Shirou? If his rescuer lacks the pure joy in finding Shirou that Kiritsugu had, Shirou would never wonder if he could be that happy. He may still be empty and distorted, but how? Would he have an fascination with remaking one's self? Destroying the old to usher in the new? I suggested a Rebirth Origin back at Beast Lair to give focus to the destruction of the old to create something new, but I'm interested on any ideas someone else has. Let's hear 'em!
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#33
He tears asunder the old, rotting structure of the corrupt and burns the debris to nothing so that the survivors might build new and sturdier things on purified ground. He is the firebrand of revolution, the harbinger of long overdue change, the spark that ignites the already piled up tinder and the wind that fans the flame. He is Surtr's burning sword, the all-consuming flame that rises up to consume gods and giants at the end of days along with their petty grudges so that a new world may come about, better and more innocent than the old.

Or, for a less nuanced alternative, base him on the quote, 'Let Justice be done, though the world burns'. Base him on the explicit reversal of the modern ideal, so that he espouses the principle that, 'Better a hundred innocents should rot in prison than even one guilty man go free'.
 
#34
Inaba said:
He tears asunder the old, rotting structure of the corrupt and burns the debris to nothing so that the survivors might build new and sturdier things on purified ground. He is the firebrand of revolution, the harbinger of long overdue change, the spark that ignites the already piled up tinder and the wind that fans the flame. He is Surtr's burning sword, the all-consuming flame that rises up to consume gods and giants at the end of days along with their petty grudges so that a new world may come about, better and more innocent than the old.

Or, for a less nuanced alternative, base him on the quote, 'Let Justice be done, though the world burns'. Base him on the explicit reversal of the modern ideal, so that he espouses the principle that, 'Better a hundred innocents should rot in prison than even one guilty man go free'.
That is extremely dark and completely divergent from canon.

I like it.

Not sure how feasible it would be and whether it would lend itself well to a plot, but I like the idea. Now, how to implement it...

Shirou, upon being rescued and learning of the Holy Grail War and the destruction it has caused, decides that it's more important that the people who caused the tragedy never have a second chance to do so? If he's picked up by someone Anti-Association, he could be raised to believe that the MA must be destroyed to create something better. Even if someone points out that more peaceful changes could be implemented, the violent upheaval and Rebirth origin leaves Shirou torn. Violent upheaval now to make way for the new, or wait for later? After all, people will embrace the new change most readily when the corruption is most apparent.

No, I'm not considering the 'MA is good let it be'. I like the Rebirth Origin and feel that Shirou would never stop wanting to see something new born. The best he would agree to is that perhaps it should come later. In my mind at least, I'm willing to be convinced otherwise.

Complimentary idea: Shirou wants to see a perfect creation, a utopia born from the ashes of the old. But he realizes that if such a utopia came to exist, he would feel the urge to tear it down and watch it reborn anew, even if the new creation lacked the utopia's perfection.

Shirou joining the HGW...he wants to use the Grail to achieve his goal, or he wants to use the HGW as bait to kill people associated with the HGW. If he becomes a Master by accident, he'd have to plan on the fly more and that's probably a good thing.

I'd suggest that an aggressive Shirou pull a Kotomine and ambush a Master for their Command Seals, possibly Kotomine himself because I would be amused by a Gilgamesh and Shirou team up, but I think you need to have been chosen by the Holy Grail in order to be a Master.

Alternatives....Shirou steals Shinji's Book of False Attendent. Temporary measure at best unless Shirou can prevent its destruction, but it's there.

Hmm....Shirou is a Master, makes plans in advance, and assassinates corrupt Masters for their Command Seals to get a second Servant and order them to run suicide missions. Shirou and a True Assassin? Part of me is still trying to shove in a Shirou and Gilgamesh team up. Shirou couldn't force Gilgamesh to do anything, but their goals are similar and if caught in the right mood, Gilgamesh may indulge Shirou. If The King puts that A+ Charisma to use he may inspire Shirou to solidify his Reality Marble.

Now, keeping Gil from finding some new Master and coming back for Shirou when the whim strikes, as opposed to teaming up with Shirou? That's still a possibility. Also, I wouldn't rule out the possibility of Shirou deciding that Gilgamesh is another one of those people that needs to go.

Hmm, there's a limiter on Shirou. He knows of Gilgamesh but lacks the power to actually kill him, so he puts his plans to murder his way through the participants and creators of the HGW on a back burner to find someone who can kill the King of Heroes?

Honestly, selling Shirou forming his own RM without his Heroic Spirit counterpart running around is difficult. The best I got is a Heroic Spirit seeing the beginnings of an RM within him and molding him into the proper mindset to accept its existence and use it.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#35
If I were writing something based on this idea, I'd set up the scenario something similar to this:

Kiritsugu rescues Shirou as in canon but is compelled to teach him more about magecraft and magic users than he did in canon. Perhaps this is because Shirou needed to learn to control his natural abilities or because Kiritsugu wanted him to be able to protect himself against interested outsiders - this is not important, so long as the conditions are set so that Kiritsugu has to teach Shirou and those conditions do not contradict what is possible as detailed in canon.

In the course of teaching Shirou, Kiritsugu lets slip something about the 4th. Shirou is curious about the 4th and questions Kiritsugu, resulting in Kiritsugu telling him more than he should. Kiritsugu dies much the same as in canon, perhaps a little later if the author desires to tweak the scenario, leaving behind a different Shirou.

He still possesses the ambition to become a hero who helps others but that ambition is tempered a little with the understanding of the disasters that lie along the path. This Shirou knows about the 4th, knows about Kiritsugu's participation in the 4th, and perhaps even knows a little about what Kiritsugu has lost in the 4th. He believes as Kiritsugu does that the Grail is no more, but continues to hone his abilities in order to meet his ambition.

Cue Shirou's entrance into the 5th.

He learns more and more about the nature of the Grail as he meets more and more of its participants. He learns from either Ilya or Zouken the original participants' desire to reach Akasha and he learns from either Rin or one of the other more experienced participants about past conflicts. Combine this with what he learned from Kiritsugu about the Grail, he collects enough clues to piece together the conclusion that the Grail is corrupt and that its original aim has failed - thus changing his ambition from 'protect others from the conflict to obtain the Grail' to 'burn the Grail to ashes so that it can no longer afflict the people'.

Along the same time as Shirou begins to come to this conclusion about the Grail, he is learning about the best path to achieve his ambition of becoming a hero. He wants to do the greatest possible good using his natural talents for the greatest possible number but understands better than he did in canon that the best intentions can lead to terrible outcomes and that simple determination is not enough (Kiritsugu is an important lesson here, as is perhaps Kariya).

As such, as Shirou interacts with the other masters and the heroic spirits, he begins to refine his path. Perhaps he learns from the errors of those spirits who chose to be alone on their path (Arturia is the best example here) and decides that the best option is to team up with other like-minded individuals. Or perhaps he fails to protect those near and dear to him (perhaps he is unable to tell Ilya about Kiritsugu's true thoughts, perhaps he is unable to rescue Sakura, perhaps Rin dies in the fighting) and in his bitterness decides that his natural abilities can only destroy and neither protect nor nurture, thus leading him to a not-so-pleasant existence of wandering the globe and burning out corrupt institutions in an one-man crusade.
 
#36
Hmm. It's an interesting direction, but I feel that Kiritsugu saving Shirou hinders it. Kiritsugu training Shirou is good, make no mistake. What I see problems with is how Shirou sees the joy on Kiritsugu's face, then the seeds of his canon ideal are already planted. He wants to be as happy as Kiritsugu was by saving others, and it's hard to me imagine Shirou taking any other ideal from Kiritsugu.

For an ending like the one you propose, I feel like a better ideal for Shirou to take is one of Justice. Saving people could be a subset of that.

Perhaps if Shirou passes out before he's healed by Kiritsugu? Then he gets Kiritsugu's mentoring without having that moment of inspiration coloring his future. I know you say that this Shirou's desire is tempered by Kiritsugu warning him of disasters, but I just don't feel like it's enough to give us anything but a disillusioned canon Shirou with fire powers. I think more changes would be desirable.

Speaking of fire powers, there would need to be an explanation for why Shirou doesn't get Avalon implanted in him, or if he does then an explanation for it being taken out. I suppose Kiritsugu takes a few moments too long, Avalon runs out of Saber prana to function, so Shirou passes out before seeing Kiritsugu's happiness and isn't instantly healed with Avalon?

Hmm...if there's no magical Avalon healing, Shirou probably has significant scars. He left the Archery Club because of a burn, perhaps here he would never join? He would instead focus on a club that wouldn't require him to expose his body on account of the scarring being unsightly.

What club activities would this Shirou prefer? I'm rather partial to art clubs, but for your idea Shirou probably wouldn't do something so impractical.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#37
Hymn of Ragnarok said:
Hmm. It's an interesting direction, but I feel that Kiritsugu saving Shirou hinders it. Kiritsugu training Shirou is good, make no mistake. What I see problems with is how Shirou sees the joy on Kiritsugu's face, then the seeds of his canon ideal are already planted. He wants to be as happy as Kiritsugu was by saving others, and it's hard to me imagine Shirou taking any other ideal from Kiritsugu.
I don't see the problem with a scenario where Shirou starts with Kiritsugu's ideal and then changes as time passes to become someone with his own ideas and ideals.

For an ending like the one you propose, I feel like a better ideal for Shirou to take is one of Justice. Saving people could be a subset of that.
I don't mind this though I'd prefer it if you clarified what you meant by justice. It's a fairly ambiguous and controversial concept that means different things to different people, ya know?

Perhaps if Shirou passes out before he's healed by Kiritsugu? Then he gets Kiritsugu's mentoring without having that moment of inspiration coloring his future. I know you say that this Shirou's desire is tempered by Kiritsugu warning him of disasters, but I just don't feel like it's enough to give us anything but a disillusioned canon Shirou with fire powers. I think more changes would be desirable.
If there is one outcome that I'd find most interesting in the possible scenario that I outlined, it's a Shirou who becomes harsh through pursuing his ideals. He does not become disillusioned with his ideals but instead purges himself of all other concerns in order to pursue them.

Speaking of fire powers, there would need to be an explanation for why Shirou doesn't get Avalon implanted in him, or if he does then an explanation for it being taken out. I suppose Kiritsugu takes a few moments too long, Avalon runs out of Saber prana to function, so Shirou passes out before seeing Kiritsugu's happiness and isn't instantly healed with Avalon?

Hmm...if there's no magical Avalon healing, Shirou probably has significant scars. He left the Archery Club because of a burn, perhaps here he would never join? He would instead focus on a club that wouldn't require him to expose his body on account of the scarring being unsightly.
The most important elements in the outline are that Shirou has some training and some understanding of what it means to be a mage, that he understands and/or learns about the Grail's corrupted nature, and that his participation in the 5th decides him on which path he pursues in order to achieve his ambitions.

Kiritsugu needs not be the one who rescues Shirou, much as Arturia needs not be the heroic spirit that Shirou summons and learns from when it comes to choosing the right path. He can still acquire a desire to do what is right from some other rescuer, or something weirder. For example, an alternate scenario might see Kotomine adopting Shirou and Shirou learning from Gilgamesh. In this scenario, Shirou might learn to interpret 'impurities' to mean 'corruption' and 'frailties' and his reality marble changes accordingly.

What club activities would this Shirou prefer? I'm rather partial to art clubs, but for your idea Shirou probably wouldn't do something so impractical.
Not a clue, so long as it fits his nature, I think it's fine.
 
#38
Inaba said:
Hymn of Ragnarok said:
Hmm. It's an interesting direction, but I feel that Kiritsugu saving Shirou hinders it. Kiritsugu training Shirou is good, make no mistake. What I see problems with is how Shirou sees the joy on Kiritsugu's face, then the seeds of his canon ideal are already planted. He wants to be as happy as Kiritsugu was by saving others, and it's hard to me imagine Shirou taking any other ideal from Kiritsugu.
I don't see the problem with a scenario where Shirou starts with Kiritsugu's ideal and then changes as time passes to become someone with his own ideas and ideals.
I have no problem with that. It's just that one of Shirou's first memories is the joy on Kiritsugu's face as he saves a person. I feel like saving people is the core of Shirou's ideal, as opposed to saving as many as possible. As HF is canon (despite my mixed opinions), Shirou is capable of forsaking the many for the few.

Then again, that's also proof that he can throw away ideals he keeps close to his heart. So I suppose it could be done.
For an ending like the one you propose, I feel like a better ideal for Shirou to take is one of Justice. Saving people could be a subset of that.
I don't mind this though I'd prefer it if you clarified what you meant by justice. It's a fairly ambiguous and controversial concept that means different things to different people, ya know?
Fair point. I mean righting what Shirou perceives to be wrong. This could mean anything from saving innocents from suffering, to punishing the guilty at all cost.

I suppose I meant it to be interpreted as a broad range of possibilities. That may hinder a writer though, since canon Shirou's ideal is very simple, while justice is much more complicated. Perhaps it could be simplified by Shirou, as he lives, developing absolute tenets that he will not break? Bonus points for these tenets coming into conflict and Shirou having to decide what is more important.

It could very easily lead to Shirou as the bitter man described in your ending. Resigned to removing what is obviously evil and repugnant to him because it's the only thing he feels justified in doing. Putting Good into the world is all well and good, but if Shirou felt that he couldn't suffer Evil to be in his world then I don't think he could ever be content in a peaceful life.

Perhaps if Shirou passes out before he's healed by Kiritsugu? Then he gets Kiritsugu's mentoring without having that moment of inspiration coloring his future. I know you say that this Shirou's desire is tempered by Kiritsugu warning him of disasters, but I just don't feel like it's enough to give us anything but a disillusioned canon Shirou with fire powers. I think more changes would be desirable.
If there is one outcome that I'd find most interesting in the possible scenario that I outlined, it's a Shirou who becomes harsh through pursuing his ideals. He does not become disillusioned with his ideals but instead purges himself of all other concerns in order to pursue them.
This appeals to my love of tragedy and pyrrhic victory. There aren't enough stories like this (That aren't about Archer).

Speaking of fire powers, there would need to be an explanation for why Shirou doesn't get Avalon implanted in him, or if he does then an explanation for it being taken out. I suppose Kiritsugu takes a few moments too long, Avalon runs out of Saber prana to function, so Shirou passes out before seeing Kiritsugu's happiness and isn't instantly healed with Avalon?

Hmm...if there's no magical Avalon healing, Shirou probably has significant scars. He left the Archery Club because of a burn, perhaps here he would never join? He would instead focus on a club that wouldn't require him to expose his body on account of the scarring being unsightly.
The most important elements in the outline are that Shirou has some training and some understanding of what it means to be a mage, that he understands and/or learns about the Grail's corrupted nature, and that his participation in the 5th decides him on which path he pursues in order to achieve his ambitions.

Kiritsugu needs not be the one who rescues Shirou, much as Arturia needs not be the heroic spirit that Shirou summons and learns from when it comes to choosing the right path. He can still acquire a desire to do what is right from some other rescuer, or something weirder. For example, an alternate scenario might see Kotomine adopting Shirou and Shirou learning from Gilgamesh. In this scenario, Shirou might learn to interpret 'impurities' to mean 'corruption' and 'frailties' and his reality marble changes accordingly.
While everything you said is true, this is the Fate/Phoenix Burning topic so it's probably best to focus on the plot elements unique to this particular idea. Unless you were saying that Shirou could learn about himself from other people while having an emphasis on fire. In which case, point taken.

Also, for Kotomine and Gilgamesh raising Shirou, go read <a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/7331568/1/Tainted_Ideals' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Tainted Ideals</a> if you haven't already.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#39
Given that the setting is a multiverse, I doubt that HF is canon. It seems more probable that each of the possible paths happen in their own separate branch, three amongst countless more possibilities.

I interpreted HF as the path where Shirou discarded his ideals in order to prioritize the well-being of someone dear to him - it is the human thing to do, but I'm not inclined to consider it the heroic thing to do. In other paths though, I believe that Shirou is someone who desires to save as many people as possible, but is likely unwilling or at least hesitant to consciously harm innocents in order to save still more innocents. MOS!Shirou would do that, but then again, MOS!Shirou stands out because of that.

Having said that, I'd like to see this Shirou struggling to determine what is the right path and how best to pursue that path. It could be interesting to see him come up against the ethics and morals of other participants and resolve questions such as whether ethics should trump morals or morals should trump ethics. His participation in the 5th should serve as a microcosm of his maturation.

In regards to the not-so-pleasant-end!Shirou, I think the Archer comparison is only appropriate possibly in terms of their attitude and the bitterness that runs through their core. Both of them are compelled (by their nature and by their contract respectively) to destroy and both of them often end up destroying innocents through their actions. But one accepts it as an inevitable consequence of his path to achieving the greater good while the other has been embittered and ultimately broken by what he has been forced to do.

In a real sense, you could portray it as a clash of consequentialist versus deontological morality, with who's more right and wrong up to the author and the authority to tweak the specifics of each.

In regards to Tainted Ideals, I've already read it and has been following it for the past month or so, but thanks for the heads up nonetheless. I don't think Kiritsugu's actually necessary for this idea considering the original proposal called for someone else entirely to replace the man and thus open up a spot for a hero other than Arturia.

Having said that, who do you think would make for a suitable summon?
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#40
Inaba said:
Or, for a less nuanced alternative, base him on the quote, 'Let Justice be done, though the world burns'. Base him on the explicit reversal of the modern ideal, so that he espouses the principle that, 'Better a hundred innocents should rot in prison than even one guilty man go free'.
Then everyone would be in prison....

Anyway, I don't like that idea at all, because it almost certainly will condemn Sakura to death for expediency.
 
#41
while i find your complete focus on Sakura creepy in this case (because not only her would be affected and more likely all of Fuyuki would burn in that case) i absolutely agree with you.

and i suppose that it's the way you phrased it, because for me and as i understood your sentence read to me : fuck the others, it would hurt Sakura as if she was the only one that mattered.

and if that offends you i asure you it was not my intention and i apologize if you feel ofended or atacked in any way.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#42
Cherry_lover said:
Anyway, I don't like that idea at all, because it almost certainly will condemn Sakura to death for expediency.
To be fair, that scenario probably would result in Shirou condemning the entire magus population of Fuyuki because the Grail is much too dangerous to be played around with.

Having said that though, I prefer the 'burn away the old dead growth so that new things may sprout in its wake' scenario to the 'burn everything' scenario because the second one is boring and has little personal conflict. I'd also like to see more scenarios proposed though.
 

Antimatter

Well-Known Member
#43
Cherry_lover said:
Inaba said:
Or, for a less nuanced alternative, base him on the quote, 'Let Justice be done, though the world burns'. Base him on the explicit reversal of the modern ideal, so that he espouses the principle that, 'Better a hundred innocents should rot in prison than even one guilty man go free'.
Then everyone would be in prison....

Anyway, I don't like that idea at all, because it almost certainly will condemn Sakura to death for expediency.
It sounds like the way the justice system works in the warhammer 40 k universe. they say stuff like 'There are no pleas of innocence in my court. Those who plead innocent are guilty of wasting my time! Guilty!' or 'There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt'.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#44
Inaba said:
Or, for a less nuanced alternative, base him on the quote, 'Let Justice be done, though the world burns'. Base him on the explicit reversal of the modern ideal, so that he espouses the principle that, 'Better a hundred innocents should rot in prison than even one guilty man go free'.
OK, that's pretty much the opposite of how I think Shirou should be, both in general, and in this timeline.

EDIT: I like 'burn away the old dead growth so that new things may sprout in its wake' much better, and not just because Zouken is pretty much the definition of 'old, dead growth'. Wouldn't mind burning away most of the Mage's Association, either, but Shirou would need a whole bloody lot of help for that.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#45
Burning the Mage's Association to the ground seems like one of those 'hurts more than it helps' things - reforming it from the inside is probably a better idea.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#46
Inaba said:
Burning the Mage's Association to the ground seems like one of those 'hurts more than it helps' things - reforming it from the inside is probably a better idea.
Well, I said 'most of'. First you have to figure out which ones can be reformed, and which ones would burn the world, rather than change.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
#47
shioran toushin said:
while i find your complete focus on Sakura creepy in this case (because not only her would be affected and more likely all of Fuyuki would burn in that case) i absolutely agree with you.

and i suppose that it's the way you phrased it, because for me and as i understood your sentence read to me : fuck the others, it would hurt Sakura as if she was the only one that mattered.

and if that offends you i asure you it was not my intention and i apologize if you feel ofended or atacked in any way.
Well, Sakura is the most obvious victim of such a belief, so I didn't really bother to look any further because that's enough for me to condemn it. Rin and Ilya would definitely take it too, though, thinking about it.

Antimatter said:
It sounds like the way the justice system works in the warhammer 40 k universe. they say stuff like 'There are no pleas of innocence in my court. Those who plead innocent are guilty of wasting my time! Guilty!' or 'There is no such thing as innocence, only degrees of guilt'.
Yeah, I'm not really fond of the Warhammer 40k universe (or, at least, I don't really like any of the factions one bit).

Prince Charon said:
OK, that's pretty much the opposite of how I think Shirou should be, both in general, and in this timeline.
Yeah. Shirou is just not that sort of person. He likes saving people, not punishing them.

Inaba said:
Burning the Mage's Association to the ground seems like one of those 'hurts more than it helps' things - reforming it from the inside is probably a better idea.
I'm not convinced.

Certainly there are parts of it which can be salvaged, but I think tearing down the entire structure would be a damn good start, even if I'd say he should avoid killing magi without good cause. There are plenty of decent magi out there (Rin, Sakura, Luvia, Shirou himself), but they're all too wedded to the system and the system is simply too powerful to really go against it in a meaningful way. The whole thing needs to come crashing down to give the nicer magi a chance to rebuild it as an institituion that can be trusted.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#48
Cherry_lover said:
Certainly there are parts of it which can be salvaged, but I think tearing down the entire structure would be a damn good start, even if I'd say he should avoid killing magi without good cause. There are plenty of decent magi out there (Rin, Sakura, Luvia, Shirou himself), but they're all too wedded to the system and the system is simply too powerful to really go against it in a meaningful way. The whole thing needs to come crashing down to give the nicer magi a chance to rebuild it as an institituion that can be trusted.
Yeah, pretty much. Mind you, before the burning, you want to get the list of Sealing Designations, to see which ones could and would help, which ones to leave alone, and which ones need to burn.
 

Inaba

Well-Known Member
#49
It depends on the functions of the Association. As I understand it, it is something of an educational institution, a policing organization, and a forum for the exchange of commodities between mages. Any attempt to bring it down is likely to prompt violent response and outright civil conflict, and any attempt to replace it with a more benevolent organization in the aftermath will be tainted by that conflict. Barring the proscription of entire families and bloodlines, I don't see how it would be possible for a would-be revolutionary to restore order afterwards, never mind the carnage of the conflict itself and the possibilities of mages running amok during the war itself and for quite some time afterwards.

As for the idea of the nicer mages rebuilding, the quickest way to strengthen the hardliners in a faction is to attack that faction. People will fight to defend their institutions regardless of whether those institutions are right or wrong. It simply isn't likely that the Association can be brought down without massive death tolls, which will inevitably include those more decent members.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#50
Well we know of at least ONE other faction in the Nasu-verse that would just LOVE to see the M.A. torn down, and would gladly give it's help to do so if their was a really good chance of it working - the Church.

The problem with the Church is they wouldn't want to see the M.A. built back up in any shape or form, so their help -while considerable- is a double edged sword, Shirou would have to know to handle to collapse carefully so that not everything to do with the M.A. gets offed, he doesn't want a scorched earth scenario after all.

Never mind the Church is just as bad as the M.A. and the two balance the other so they don't get out of control.

So, if ya'll are so dead set on seeing the M.A. fall (which is hard enough since its NOT just the Clockwork Tower) then Shirou to prevent any other atrocities, any other injustices from being committed, must also therefore burn the church to the ground as well, and well, good luck with that.

Inaba said:
Burning the Mage's Association to the ground seems like one of those 'hurts more than it helps' things - reforming it from the inside is probably a better idea.
The only thing I can say to that is - "Okay Suzaku, lets see how that works for ya."

While a great idea on paper this hardly ever works out, Like true communism. Going about the method of change changes the individual before individual changes it.
 
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