Nasuverse Fate/phoenix burning

[Inaba]

Burning the Mage's Association to the ground seems like one of those 'hurts more than it helps' things - reforming it from the inside is probably a better idea.

The only thing I can say to that is - "Okay Suzaku, lets see how that works for ya."

While a great idea on paper this hardly ever works out, Like true communism. Going about the method of change changes the individual before individual changes it.

Suzaku was an idiot because he attempted reform inside a collection of institutions that could not be reformed by someone of his station and circumstances, not because he preferred reform to revolution. That line of thinking is ridiculous because it suggests that the people should overthrow their government violently each and every time a minor point in a law needs to be amended.

Reform is possible so long as the reformer has the personal determination to do so, the position to do so, and the popular support amongst the relevant populace to do so. For example, Cardinal Richelieu, Cardinal Mazarin, and the Sun King were able to turn the French aristocrats into clear subordinates of an absolute monarch through reform. Granted, in their case, their reforms were sometimes carried out with steel and flame, but remains reformation rather than revolution because there is a clear line of descent from the prior regime to that of their creation.

I haven't the slightest clue whether the Association can be reformed, though I lean to interpretations that they are not completely stagnant and hidebound to the degree that reformation is impossible. And even if they were that ridiculously static, I'm still inclined to think that their destruction would result in worse outcomes than keeping them around.

 

[The Eromancer]

Burning the Mage's Association to the ground seems like one of those 'hurts more than it helps' things - reforming it from the inside is probably a better idea.

The only thing I can say to that is - "Okay Suzaku, lets see how that works for ya."

While a great idea on paper this hardly ever works out, Like true communism. Going about the method of change changes the individual before individual changes it.

Suzaku was an idiot because he attempted reform inside a collection of institutions that could not be reformed by someone of his station and circumstances, not because he preferred reform to revolution. That line of thinking is ridiculous because it suggests that the people should overthrow their government violently each and every time a minor point in a law needs to be amended.

Reform is possible so long as the reformer has the personal determination to do so, the position to do so, and the popular support amongst the relevant populace to do so. For example, Cardinal Richelieu, Cardinal Mazarin, and the Sun King were able to turn the French aristocrats into clear subordinates of an absolute monarch through reform. Granted, in their case, their reforms were sometimes carried out with steel and flame, but remains reformation rather than revolution because there is a clear line of descent from the prior regime to that of their creation.

I haven't the slightest clue whether the Association can be reformed, though I lean to interpretations that they are not completely stagnant and hidebound to the degree that reformation is impossible. And even if they were that ridiculously static, I'm still inclined to think that their destruction would result in worse outcomes than keeping them around.

I'm not saying people need to violently overthrow a government over minor points, I'm saying they should be doing something by any means necessary to get changed started and if it takes a violent and bloody coup to get it done if they truly believe they are in the right then there should not be any regrets.

Look at it this way, the problem with the Mage's Association lies, at the very root of it founding ideal, to learn about the root of the world. Just about every Magus is striving towards this, to learn some peace of it, the learn the truth, remember most magus are researchers first and foremost and the association is just a very well formed and connected club of similarly thought peoples. They are a society much like the Free Masons only -ya know- they're actually hidden.

Almost every magus with the association is their for the sole purpose of reaching akasha, the association helps them along for mutual gain by even covering up the most hideous of crimes against humanity all because of mutual benefit.

if you are going to tear down the M.A. you have to start with its founding principal which made it such as it is today and then work up from there.

Any good mechanic will tell you if the engine block is the problem tear it out and get a new one because no amount of patching and changing everything else but the root of the problem won't change a damn thing but delay the inevitable catastrophic break down.

 

[Inaba]

I'm not saying people need to violently overthrow a government over minor points, I'm saying they should be doing something by any means necessary to get changed started and if it takes a violent and bloody coup to get it done if they truly believe they are in the right then there should not be any regrets.

Look at it this way, the problem with the Mage's Association lies, at the very root of it founding ideal, to learn about the root of the world. Just about every Magus is striving towards this, to learn some peace of it, the learn the truth, remember most magus are researchers first and foremost and the association is just a very well formed and connected club of similarly thought peoples. They are a society much like the Free Masons only -ya know- they're actually hidden.

Almost every magus with the association is their for the sole purpose of reaching akasha, the association helps them along for mutual gain by even covering up the most hideous of crimes against humanity all because of mutual benefit.

if you are going to tear down the M.A. you have to start with its founding principal which made it such as it is today and then work up from there.

Any good mechanic will tell you if the engine block is the problem tear it out and get a new one because no amount of patching and changing everything else but the root of the problem won't change a damn thing but delay the inevitable catastrophic break down.

I'm assuming here that said organization's foundational principle is to reach Akasha and that it is objectionable because it facilitates this research process regardless of the cost to other humans.

First assumption does not necessitate the second - it is possible for a theoretical organization to promote that ambition without letting its members that much free rein in regards to their research. For example, consider the ethical standards in modern science set up since WW2 and the subsequent decades. Canon mages are human in their action and decisions and if our societies managed to institute such standards, I do not see why the MA cannot do the same under the right circumstances.

For me, the important questions are whether the circumstances can be created for the MA to be reformed and whether the net benefit of a potential transformation is higher than the alternatives, in particular the destruction of the MA.

I'm inclined to believe that it is possible to reform the MA and that the net benefit of doing so is preferable to the net benefit (or more probably, net loss) of destroying the MA wholly as an organization, though I will not go into details on my thinking unless asked since it'll eat up more time than I can spare at the moment.

 

[Hymn of Ragnarok]

@Inaba: Sorry this took so long. At the time I had a busy set of days, and this slipped my mind. For what it's worth, here's my response.

Given that the setting is a multiverse, I doubt that HF is canon. It seems more probable that each of the possible paths happen in their own separate branch, three amongst countless more possibilities.

I think it's canon in some universes. The Nasuverse is a multiverse, and I think every Bad and Good End is canon in somewhere in said multiverse.

I interpreted HF as the path where Shirou discarded his ideals in order to prioritize the well-being of someone dear to him - it is the human thing to do, but I'm not inclined to consider it the heroic thing to do. In other paths though, I believe that Shirou is someone who desires to save as many people as possible, but is likely unwilling or at least hesitant to consciously harm innocents in order to save still more innocents. MOS!Shirou would do that, but then again, MOS!Shirou stands out because of that.

Well, I do like the endgame scenes of HF with Shirou and Rin going balls to the wall trying to win and save Sakura. On my nicer days I do consider Shirou heroic for his actions, even if I don't necessarily agree with his choice. Otherwise we're in agreement.

Having said that, I'd like to see this Shirou struggling to determine what is the right path and how best to pursue that path. It could be interesting to see him come up against the ethics and morals of other participants and resolve questions such as whether ethics should trump morals or morals should trump ethics. His participation in the 5th should serve as a microcosm of his maturation.

This. This would be extremely appealing to read.

In regards to the not-so-pleasant-end!Shirou, I think the Archer comparison is only appropriate possibly in terms of their attitude and the bitterness that runs through their core. Both of them are compelled (by their nature and by their contract respectively) to destroy and both of them often end up destroying innocents through their actions. But one accepts it as an inevitable consequence of his path to achieving the greater good while the other has been embittered and ultimately broken by what he has been forced to do.

Interesting parallel. I like that end.

In a real sense, you could portray it as a clash of consequentialist versus deontological morality, with who's more right and wrong up to the author and the authority to tweak the specifics of each.

If you could get this Shirou to fight EMIYA, we'd have a pretty interesting conversation. Shirou would almost certainly lose, but it could be done.

In regards to Tainted Ideals, I've already read it and has been following it for the past month or so, but thanks for the heads up nonetheless. I don't think Kiritsugu's actually necessary for this idea considering the original proposal called for someone else entirely to replace the man and thus open up a spot for a hero other than Arturia.

True. We could always make an OC to give a bit more freedom, it would just have to be a well done OC. I'm not sure who would be best in the original universe though, I'd have to muse on it.

Having said that, who do you think would make for a suitable summon?

Well, I'm rather partial to Karna, but his upkeep is probably significant. Maybe even beyond what a merely above average magus can be expected to supply. The idea of this Shirou summoning EMIYA amuses me, but that could take significant work. No one else really comes to mind...

Apologies for this being relatively brief. It's been so long that it's hard to get back into the right mindset and I'm still busy.

 

[Inaba]

Not a problem, we all get bad days sometimes and it's rather nice to see this topic come up again.

In regards to the HF scenario, since I prefer to use heroism in its older and more neutral sense, it might be best if I called Shirou's canon actions as virtuous but also the less moral option. It was a courageous and compassionate that he chose to save Sakura, but it was still prioritizing one person over a multitude of others. It is the human thing to do and I could not do otherwise were I put in his place, but I cannot see it as being moral or heroic because I see heroism as being more than human.

Minor quibbling aside, I think one of the more interesting questions that Shirou might be compelled to answer is what grants him the right to act as a hero should he choose that path? I'm assuming here that Shirou's heroism will require him to hurt or even kill others, but what gives him to right to do so when most of us see vigilantism as undesirable at best? We accord our governments the right to catch and punish criminals, but what gives that right to a vigilante? Would Shirou even care? Does he perhaps acknowledge that he is hypocrite and acts nonetheless? Perhaps he only operates in places in a state of complete societal breakdown? Only against inhuman entities? Or does he act heedless of the morals and legal codes of others?

If the last case, then what separates Shirou from Gilgamesh?

In regards to the servant, I suppose it would depend on whether Shirou has access to a catalyst or not. If he does and uses that catalyst, the question is moot. If not, then I don't believe that there is a canon or even semi-canonical servant that would suit him as he is in the beginning without a degree of interpretation or reinterpretation.

I am interested in how Shirou might respond to Karna though, considering that Karna's life was an excellent example of a moral dilemma. Karna was a virtuous man but at the same time the strong right arm that enabled his true friend's evil. When he was offered to be welcomed to his blood kin, recognition as being of the highest lineage as opposed to the son of the charioteer who raised him, and the rulership of the subcontinent as the eldest brother in return for abandoning his friend, Karna rejected all of that in order to remain true to his friend and even concealed his lineage in order to fight against his brothers without qualm. Was he right to do this? Was his friendship (and it was a true friendship) worth enabling evil or did he have a higher duty to formless principle and failed to live up to that duty despite being a faultless man in every other aspect of his life?

 

[Prince Charon]

Was rereading some old threads, and had an idea relating to this: Could Shirou's Birth of the Phoenix plausibly purify the Great Grail? Think about that.

 

[zeebee1]

The real question is how would Shirou escape experimentation afterwords. The problem with purifying the grail is that people would find out he was the cause. They'd find out hat he had a form of immortality that didn't corrode the body or the soul. He'd get a sealing designation for sure.

 

[The Eromancer]

maybe, or maybe not.

Honestly it would really depend on Shirou at that point and weather he would actually allow himself to be captured alive much less put under a seal designation.

And then there is also of course the MA might never find out that it was Shirou who did it in the first place. Also with how simply unique this setting is who's to say a certain Wizard-Marshal wouldn't think he's a curious enough person? And no one gets in his way.

 

[Prince Charon]

maybe, or maybe not.

Honestly it would really depend on Shirou at that point and weather he would actually allow himself to be captured alive much less put under a seal designation.

And then there is also of course the MA might never find out that it was Shirou who did it in the first place. Also with how simply unique this setting is who's to say a certain Wizard-Marshal wouldn't think he's a curious enough person? And no one gets in his way.

Exactly.