Nasuverse Fate/Stay Updates

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
Muramasa said:
<a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkSue?from=Main.JerkassStu' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>faultless arrogant prick</a>?
I think it's extra special that the title pic for that page is Louise.

Anyway, I have a question. What would Rule Breaker do to a Winged Sekirei?
 

lask

Well-Known Member
Hard to say. It will break all magical contracts, but while the forging of the bond is clearly partly occult, it was engeneered through man's technologies. The leash that remain's doesn't nessessarly have to be magical at all.

That being said, the bond will cirtainly make a great deal more sense if it IS magic.

A more interesting question is that it's been mentioned that an Ashikabi grows stronger as (s)he bonds more Sekirei. Not simply in the sense that they're better protected, or that they have more mystical servents to do their bidding. That, whatever makes them Ashikabi itself grows stronger and more flexible. Shirou might find his own magic enhanced somehow. Which would be useful, as this is a younger Shirou from back when he needed others support to invoke is reality marble.
 

Tsuki_CB

Well-Known Member
Nasu fans, still bawwwing about the surprise sex long after GB was done with them :lol:
 

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
That statement would work if he'd done anything intentionally. But all of the annoyance people had was created from of his blinding ignorance.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
Tsuki_CB said:
Nasu fans, still bawwwing about the surprise sex long after GB was done with them :lol:
Your mom practices reproduction. Fate-hater. :p

Also, this.

Saturday, March 22, 2008

Macho Sue

A disagreeable variant of Mary Sue, often found in action films, cop shows and the more battly kind of science fiction. While Mary Sue is a fictional character who bends the universe around herself with her amazing specialness, Macho Sue bends the universe around his manhood. He has a particular ability to get away with behaviour that would be considered bad in a woman - to the point of behaviour that would be considered typically female by a misogynist if displayed by a woman.

These traits usually involve poor self-control, such as outbursts, tantrums, sulks, and a refusal to take responsibility for his own behaviour towards others when he's upset. It's not uncommon for Macho Sue to be prejudiced, or at least suspicious of the unfamiliar, and he's almost always unusually disrespectful to others; he has a particular propensity for taking an unreasonable dislike to somebody on sight (only to have it validated later). When thwarted, he tends to be affronted as well as frustrated, in a way that suggests neither he nor the narrative think it right that anyone but him should ever get their way. The story tends to throw straw men at him by way of obstacles, but they're never shown as equally masculine, and thus are without any heroism of their own. Macho Sue is emotional, but with such an assumption of gendered authority that nobody questions the manliness - in the rightful sense of 'adulthood' - of his behaviour.

The concept of Gary Stu/Marty Stu/Larry Stu does exist, most sources I've read describe him as fundamentally similar to Mary Sue - a traumatised past, unusual appearance, a tendency to rebel against authority thrown in for good measure, but a basically feminine conception of specialness, predicated on the ability to suffer beautifully and a tendency to have people fall in love with you.

The Macho Sue is something different. While basically a Mary Sue, in that the story attributes to his feelings far greater importance than they would merit in a realistic narrative, Macho Sue appeals to a primordial impulse: the impulse to truckle to the alpha male.

Certain cognitive traits come into play here. One is the 'halo effect', as it's colloquially understood: that is, the tendency to attribute greater virtues to more attractive people. Macho Sue tends to be attractive, insofar as he embodies certain characteristics that are traditionally seen as masculine; as author Rosalind Wiseman would put it, he 'fits in the "Act Like A Man" box'.* Representing a certain archetype of manhood, Macho Sue has to be thought well of by people who want to think well of manhood (assuming they buy his act).

Hence, if you're a man, Macho Sue's manhood is your manhood writ large, and approving him is approving yourself, or an idealised image of yourself; you can, as it were, partake of his hyper-masculinity purely by endorsing it. John Wayne famously said, 'I'm the stuff men are made of', and, taken seriously, that remark can have an almost literal truth: men can build their sense of manhood out of the image of John Wayne. Being John Wayne works, but being a John Wayne fan, who compares his hero favourably to the sappier men of today, is a statement of manhood in and of itself. As such, Macho Sue is something of a totem to men who believe in capital-M Manhood: the implication is that it takes a certain kind of manliness even to appreciate the virtues of Macho Sue, especially since all those hairy-legged feminists swarmed all over society trying to sissify our heroes. If you're a woman, Macho Sue the avatar of manhood that will supposedly protect you, and disliking him risks making yourself into a man-hater. Liking him, on the other hand, makes you feminine. Being a highly polarized portrait of gender, Macho Sue manages to bestow both manhood and womanhood, depending on the sex of his fan: accepting him is accepting that polarization, and putting yourself in the appropriate box. Hence, there's a scramble to attribute all sorts of good qualities to Macho Sue, in the name of proper gender behaviour.

Another trait is the double standards that accompany authoritarianism. Alpha-male privilege is one of the foundation stones of almost any authoritarian mindset, and along with authoritarianism comes double standards. Prominent among them is to judge the powerful more leniently than the powerless. To quote Bob Altemeyer's The Authoritarians yet again (chapter 3):

I have found many other instances in which authoritarian followers show a double standard in their judgements of people's behaviour ... For example they will punish a panhandler who starts a fight with an accountant more than an accountant who (in the same situation) starts a fight with a panhandler. They will punish a prisoner in jail who beats up another prisoner more than they will punish a police officer who beats up that second prisoner. (Remember when I said in Chapter 1 that high RWAs will go easy on authorities...?)

Macho Sue is nothing if not powerful. He may not always be granted full powers by circumstance (he may, for instance, have a commanding officer, at least at first) - but it's clear that the force of his personality grants to him an authority in the eyes of the audience. He is the hero, he is the one whose decisions will most influence this narrative, and consequently is intended to exercise the greatest power over the reader/viewer's imagination. Hence, to an audience member who has a tendency to value power, it's easy to fall into the trap of judging Macho Sue over-charitably, when the same behaviour, displayed by another, lesser man, or even worse, a woman, would draw condemnation.

The essential story structure of a Macho Sue tends to revolve around untouchable pride. If love means never having to say you're sorry, being Macho Sue means the whole of reality loves you. Typically, Macho Sue's storyline follows a certain trajectory: he begins by acting egregiously, picking or provoking fights and causing problems. However much the ensuing difficulties can be laid at his door, Macho Sue is not about to apologise,$in any way. So the problems continue - only to be salvaged by some immense reversals that give the impression that he was right all along. The man he insulted turns out, suddenly, to be a bad guy. The woman who dislikes him falls into his strong arms when he solves a problem that is not the same problem he caused for ler. People change their personalities, storylines shift and flip like a mechanical maze popping up new paths and lowering old gates in order to keep Macho Sue from ever, ever having to backtrack. As John Wayne says, 'Never say sorry - it's a sign of weakness.'

Simlarly, Macho Sue's suspicion of the unfamiliar is inherently right, because he already embodies all that is good and right: if something were good, he would already be doing it. Hence, anything new to him is some sort of corruption of the proper way of doing things. Usually it's assumed that Macho Sue has a code of honour that is at heart the right one, that if people disapprove of his behaviour it's only because they don't understand him and his righteousness, that his code of honour is never found inadequate to a situation, and that he never falls below it. It's not only apologising that's considered too emasculating for him to endure, it's learning. For his character to be improved and matured be encountering new circumstances would be a humiliating admission that he wasn't just as he should be from the beginning. Macho Sue exists to be constant: ploughing through the world like a tank, he eventually gets himself to the right destination by remaining impervious and waiting for obstacles to either be crushed or move out of his way.

As a result, from an objective viewpoint, Macho Sue doesn't have to make any effort to do the right thing; he can act on his impulses, and the right thing follows him around like a loyal little dog, herding the rest of the story into place.

This is fairly typical of most Mary Sues, but the dominant feature of Macho Sue is that his arrogance and unwillingness to listen to others often create at least half the problems of the early part of the story, and the rest of the story involves, somehow, proving that the problems he created weren't really problems at all. Which is something of a non-story: things happened! Oh, but not really. An alternative narrative is that Macho Sue behaves like a complete wanker for most of the story, then pulls off some feat that's considered so impressive that everyone conveniently forgets what an ass he is. Some Macho Sues garner sympathy by stunts rather than by actual good behaviour, and generally are given more admiration for those same stunts than other characters would be allowed. Others are surrounded by characters so wantonly foolish and frustrating in their refusal to recognise Macho Sue's importance that, the narrative implies, we can hardly blame him for not being impeccable in his behaviour. Other people are unsalvageable; that's not his fault.

Macho Sue is common in pulp heroes, though he's not confined to them. John Wayne in The Searchers and Jimmy Porter in Look Back In Anger are two examples I particularly hate, and they're very different in style. The former is the ultimate pulp hero who is entirely loathesome for the whole story, except for the last three minutes (thus earning narrative forgiveness for the past decade), whereas the latter is a canonical drama, where the vindication of the hero involves other people's improbable praise and a magically-engineered miscarriage followed by the emotional collapse of his wife, who comes crawling back to him, poor thing. But whether it's Wayne's swagger or Jimmy's 'burning virility', the essential quality in common is that their aggressive masculinity are considered so impressive that all other considerations fall before it.

Hence, rather than exuding a Mary Sueish Aura of Smooth, Macho Sue, in effect, exudes an Aura of Rugged. Frequently volatile, self-centred, demanding, emotionally unstable, blind to the rights of others and irresponsible, all of these traits unbecoming an adult man, Macho Sue nevertheless dominates the gender landscape to the point where these qualities, inexcusable in a lesser being, are attributed to his strength, stoicism or passion. The basic assumption is that Macho Sue's feelings are deeper, more authentic, than anyone else's; as Mrs Gummidge says in David Copperfield, 'I feel it more.' The tendency to 'feel it more' gets considered depth of character, where in a Mrs Gummidge, it is merely considered a petulant lack of self-control.

Macho Sue is a dangerous fellow. Do not fall for him.

*Queen Bees and Wannabes, published by Piatkus.

posted by Kit Whitfieldá # 1:13 PM
Take a look at that date, kiddies. Gilshirou was a cliche long before GB dreamed him up. :p
 

rdde

Well-Known Member
Muramasa said:
My only hope is that this fics Shirou doesn't become the <a href='http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/JerkSue?from=Main.JerkassStu' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>faultless arrogant prick</a> he was in Hill of Swords. I couldn't even get through half of that story before I just couldn't take it anymore. That's the one thing that will ruin this fic for me.
Then again, the Shirou in HoS did have untold years of fighting all sorts of dangers, from those who wishes him death to political intrigues of the 21st century. When he came to wherever Louise is, they may seem a lot more immature to him.

And "In Flight", Shirou would have an advantage over everyone else in Sekirei due to two factors, that he has participated in such a tournament before and that he has magical training whereas MBI seems to be somewhat ignorant of the magic. For him to stumble around even half of like Minato did is asking for too much.
 

Teshirath

Well-Known Member
Damn, people are really torn on the subject of HoS aren't they? I didn't realize it until I looked here.

Mostly because I couldn't find anything wrong with it, myself.
 

Tsuki_CB

Well-Known Member
It's because a lot of hardcore Nasu fans are also fruitcakes who can't understand the concept of don't like don't read. Instead they'll read it anyway and proceed to bitch about it for hours on end to anybody who disagrees with them, and sometimes to those that do, and if you happen to actually like the story, inconsistencies included or excluded, then you either didn't play the game or didn't like the game.

Cause I mean it's completely UNNATURAL that another Human might actually have a different opinion, as we all know that's just flat out impossible.

That statement would work if he'd done anything intentionally. But all of the annoyance people had was created from of his blinding ignorance.
You're only upset because you know it's true :lol:

Your mom practices reproduction. Fate-hater. tongue.gif
I would certainly hope so, as I wouldn't be here otherwise.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
Tsuki_CB said:
It's because a lot of hardcore Nasu fans are also fruitcakes who can't understand the concept of don't like don't read. Instead they'll read it anyway and proceed to bitch about it for hours on end to anybody who disagrees with them, and sometimes to those that do, and if you happen to actually like the story, inconsistencies included or excluded, then you either didn't play the game or didn't like the game.

Cause I mean it's completely UNNATURAL that another Human might actually have a different opinion, as we all know that's just flat out impossible.

That statement would work if he'd done anything intentionally. But all of the annoyance people had was created from of his blinding ignorance.
You're only upset because you know it's true :lol:

Your mom practices reproduction. Fate-hater. tongue.gif
I would certainly hope so, as I wouldn't be here otherwise.
Ad hominem, homophobish as well.

Congrats, do not pass go, do not collect 200 dollars.
 

Tsuki_CB

Well-Known Member
Ad hominem
Wut you say?

Also, though I've unfortunately come to realize just how rabid some Nasu fans can be, the ones who once before sang their outrage to the sky's over the fact that I wasn't perfect in using Nasuverse mechanics in HoS you can be assured that when I wrote HoS I was dealing solely with my knowledge from having watched and played F/sn and Tsukihime. Now I've officially added Kara no Kyoukai to my watched list, and spent a few days trolling around in the Nasu-wiki to try and figure out just what some of the things that were mentioned actually meant, so I'm a bit more confident in my ability to represent the workings of the nasuverse more accurately. I'm sure that I'll still manage to mess up a few of the more esoteric aspects of the nasuverse, and I'll probably end up using them in ways that I'm sure someone out there will want to scream outrage at, but so far my plans for In Flight will involve a lot more of the Nasuverse then HoS's did.
ZOMG, you mean it wasn't out of complete ignorance that he wrote HoS? He actually got his knowledge from playing the game and watching the anime, and still changed things?

Well mother fucker.

This was GB moments before posting the first chapter of HoS...

 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
Tsuki_CB said:
It's because a lot of hardcore Nasu fans are also fruitcakes who can't understand the concept of don't like don't read. Instead they'll read it anyway and proceed to bitch about it for hours on end to anybody who disagrees with them, and sometimes to those that do, and if you happen to actually like the story, inconsistencies included or excluded, then you either didn't play the game or didn't like the game.
No, I'm well aware of that concept (and, actually, I never read the fic as a whole, only the first few chapters until I realise how shit it was...), but that doesn't make the characterisation less shit, and last time I checked the point of this site is to discuss fanfics. After all, if we were just posting updates, there wouldn't be much activity....
 

knight_of_ni

Well-Known Member
That actually makes him worse in my eyes. He knew the characterization, he didn't even try to write it and used shallow justifications to make it work (you are not the character, what makes sense for you to do, does not make sense for the character). Bah, I don't know why I bother, people will excuse his faults, and continue saying how great it is when the author isn't even trying to write a story with Shirou. Switch out his name with something else, and ask yourself if it doesn't read like an OC.

EDIT: And yeah, I dropped both after a single chapter.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
Tsuki_CB said:
It's because a lot of hardcore Nasu fans are also fruitcakes who can't understand the concept of don't like don't read. Instead they'll read it anyway and proceed to bitch about it for hours on end to anybody who disagrees with them, and sometimes to those that do, and if you happen to actually like the story, inconsistencies included or excluded, then you either didn't play the game or didn't like the game.

Cause I mean it's completely UNNATURAL that another Human might actually have a different opinion, as we all know that's just flat out impossible.
1. How will we know we won't like it until we read it? It's not like GB put up a "Warning: Shirou's a jackass in this story" label in his summary. Fate-hater.

2. I didn't start "bitching" until you guys started "gushing". It's like you don't want any negative view of the things you like. Fate-hater.


3. Canon is only a third of my complaints. What about the predictable plot? What about the Shirou (who is a different guy from Saitou) somehow ending up with the same general results? What about the sheer wankery of the character? Did you even read my complaints or did you take your "don't like, don't read" principle to new heights? Fate-hater.


4. Bitch, I have a different opinion and I expressed it. Look where that got me. Fate-hater.


You're only upset because you know it's true laugh.gif
By that logic, our bitching upsets you because everything we say is true. Fate-hater.


I would certainly hope so, as I wouldn't be here otherwise.
So your GB's brat. Huh. That explains a couple of things. Fate-hater.


ZOMG, you mean it wasn't out of complete ignorance that he wrote HoS? He actually got his knowledge from playing the game and watching the anime, and still changed things?

Well mother fucker.
It's amazing how things like "character assassination" have suddenly become vogue and popular. I suppose you just weren't there for it, but here's a pro-tip: Most of the Nasutards here will forgive you for messing up the entire Nasuverse history. They'll mention it, but they'll forgive you the same way they forgave the hundreds of doujins and stories that came before you. But most of them will not forgive you for writing a shitty character in a shitty story.Fate-hater.

Does it ever strike you as strange that no one on your side can actually debate the merits of HoS' plot, or characterization? That they can't point out what twists were brilliant or predictable? Does it ever strike you as strange that I can pull essays describing the entirety of the story that were published years before HoS got off the ground? Fate-hater.

Newsflash. We bitch because it's a shitty story and you keep bringing it up. Deal with it. Or better yet, try to apply your "don't like, don't read" philosophy to our posts. Fate-hater. :p

And this? This. Is. TFF. When we rape canon, we do it with style and canon comes back begging for moar. :p
 

Kai-

Well-Known Member
Tsuki_CB said:
It's because a lot of hardcore Nasu fans are also fruitcakes who can't understand the concept of don't like don't read. Instead they'll read it anyway and proceed to bitch about it for hours on end to anybody who disagrees with them, and sometimes to those that do, and if you happen to actually like the story, inconsistencies included or excluded, then you either didn't play the game or didn't like the game.

Cause I mean it's completely UNNATURAL that another Human might actually have a different opinion, as we all know that's just flat out impossible.

That statement would work if he'd done anything intentionally. But all of the annoyance people had was created from of his blinding ignorance.
You're only upset because you know it's true :lol:

Your mom practices reproduction. Fate-hater. tongue.gif
I would certainly hope so, as I wouldn't be here otherwise.
unsureifserious.jpg

'hey guys, HoS has pretty cool fight scenes, pity about that Shirou characterization'

'ROAR NO DISAGREEMENT ALLOWED'

';_;'
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
On that note, what is up with this "don't like, don't read" bullshit? You post something on the recommendation thread, I'll read it. Only afterward do I decide if I like it or not. After all, every story has the potential to be great and even the worst authors can sometimes pull off a win.
 

Tsuki_CB

Well-Known Member
Basically if you don't like what you are reading, as in you start reading a fic and don't find it to your liking, then don't keep reading it. Go find something else to read that you will like. Lord knows there are tons of fics out there.
 

WizardOne

Well-Known Member
Its a known fact that GB's Shirou is SO in character that he's MORE in character than the Canon Shirou. :wub:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm personally of the Opinion that while I can totally see Shirou evolving into any of GB's shirous with differing circumstances and behaviours ( I mean the guy essentially turned his own values on their head and became a totally different person after some rather extreme circumstances, so he's definitely able to change), they don't represent any current Canon Shirous.

Ie, They're OC in a way that makes sense to me.

This means that I can enjoy his fics, and have a blast with his amazing writing quality/Update schedule ratio.

Seriously, its like 10 days old and his new fic is at 50k words.


He's also absolutely brilliant at combining settings, the Method he used to introduce Shirou to the Sekirei setting was well planned and interesting, the consequences of said action are ALSO interesting, and his Yukari is frankly, hilarious.

Now, I COULD be a curmudgeon and say 'Since this character is not a perfect representation of the canon character, I cannot enjoy this fanfic.' But I won't. Because frankly, the Naruto's and Hairy Poopers I read about in various extremely well reccomended fics such as most of Darklordpotter.net's archive, very rarely have any resemblance to their canon counterparts, Completely aside from the fact that his writing is top tier and well planned.


In my opinion, Be a Nazi about the fic and don't read it if you don't want to, But do not comment on every new update with 'OH GOD NOT THIS AGAIN GOD THATS SUCH A BAD FIC' since it had a well established fanbase in TFF and therefore it belongs in the update/rec thread. We've all heard it all before, great, you hate it, We know. Stop now.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
Tsuki_CB said:
Basically if you don't like what you are reading, as in you start reading a fic and don't find it to your liking, then don't keep reading it. Go find something else to read that you will like. Lord knows there are tons of fics out there.
And then let everyone else know that its shit so they don't suffer the same pain that you just did. And then let the author know that his story is shit, why its shit, and what he can possibly change to make it not shit.
 

Aarik

Well-Known Member
Wait a second...

Canon Shirou IS a jackass, he just doesn't say any of it out loud.

HoS!Shirou does.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
Aarik said:
Wait a second...

Canon Shirou IS a jackass, he just doesn't say any of it out loud.

HoS!Shirou does.
He has a couple of jerkass moments, but nowhere near on the level of HoS Shirou.
 

Kai-

Well-Known Member
Canon Shirou thinks almost all of it to himself and he doesn't act like a jerkass.

Shirou developing in such a way that he says what he thinks? Sure, awesome.

Shirou developing in such a way that he would seriously consider killing a cocky kid who he just beat down with his eyes closed? Not even Archer would do that.

The snark is really the least of the problems anyone has with HoS Shirou.

also, not this argument again.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
WizardOne said:
Its a known fact that GB's Shirou is SO in character that he's MORE in character than the Canon Shirou.á :wub:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm personally of the Opinion that while I can totally see Shirou evolving into any of GB's shirous with differing circumstances and behaviours ( I mean the guy essentially turned his own values on their head and became a totally different person after some rather extreme circumstances, so he's definitely able to change), they don't represent any current Canon Shirous.

Ie, They're OC in a way that makes sense to me.

This means that I can enjoy his fics, and have a blast with his amazing writing quality/Update schedule ratio.

Seriously, its like 10 days old and his new fic is at 50k words.


He's also absolutely brilliant at combining settings, the Method he used to introduce Shirou to the Sekirei setting was well planned and interesting, the consequences of said action are ALSO interesting, and his Yukari is frankly, hilarious.

Now, I COULD be a curmudgeon and say 'Since this character is not a perfect representation of the canon character, I cannot enjoy this fanfic.' But I won't. Because frankly, the Naruto's and Hairy Poopers I read about in various extremely well reccomended fics such as most of Darklordpotter.net's archive, very rarely have any resemblance to their canon counterparts, Completely aside from the fact that his writing is top tier and well planned.


In my opinion, Be a Nazi about the fic and don't read it if you don't want to, But do not comment on every new update with 'OH GOD NOT THIS AGAIN GOD THATS SUCH A BAD FIC' since it had a well established fanbase in TFF and therefore it belongs in the update/rec thread. We've all heard it all before, great, you hate it, We know. Stop now.
God damn it Wizard, I've never criticized In Flight. I've never even mentioned In Flight. I've never even read In Flight. Every Nasutard I know of who has read it or is planning to read it is going "I'm nervous, I hope GBs gentle this time" or "Hmm. . . this might be good" or "I hope he's better than the last guy".

So why the fuck are you acting like I'm trying to hit In Flight with a Shinzo Beam?


ttestagr said:
Tsuki_CB said:
Basically if you don't like what you are reading, as in you start reading a fic and don't find it to your liking, then don't keep reading it. Go find something else to read that you will like. Lord knows there are tons of fics out there.
And then let everyone else know that its shit so they don't suffer the same pain that you just did. And then let the author know that his story is shit, why its shit, and what he can possibly change to make it not shit.
Quoted For Truth.

Tsuki, you write/read stories for fun. So do I. We just have different definitions of what's a fun story. And frankly, every-time someone gushes about how awesome Gilshirou is, it's like I'm watching someone gush about how awesome drilling a nail through your skull is. Yes, it's their right to drill a nail through their skull, but I wouldn't feel right not saying something.

Canon Shirou IS a jackass, he just doesn't say any of it out loud.
By that logic, all of us are bigger jackasses than Kotomine. How many times this week have you thought about hurting someone?
 

sytang

Well-Known Member
<a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6372400/9/' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Chaos Theory</a> updated.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
sytang said:
<a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/6372400/9/' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Chaos Theory</a> updated.
Now see, this is what I want from this thread. Lolis for everyone!
 
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