Nasuverse Fate/Stay Updates

nick012000

Well-Known Member
blackkyuubi said:
He-who-voted-for-Kodos said:
My first thought at EMIYA showing up: Matsu and Yukari gushing over there being two Shirous. My second thought: EMIYA seesá Shirou's situation and questions why-oh-why couldn't his life have gone that way.

...Oh, god. If Shirou is qualified to be an Ashikabi, wouldn't it also make sense for EMIYA to be as well? In that case, I can think of only one possibility; the one Sekirei that uses a blade, that might fit with him, that is as much more awesome than most of the other Sekirei as he is to Shirou. EMIYA, have you met our landlady, Asama Miya?
Um.... correct me if I'm wrong but isn't technicly Miya not a Sekirei? Or rather she is number 00 and isn't capable of being winged since her husband died?
Miya is #01, and yeah, her ashikabi was her now-dead husband.
 

Ghostface

Lazy Bastard...
Was that ever officially confirmed or are we just going by assumptions?
 
I don't think it was ever confirmed. So the way I would view it is that they thought she was un-wingable. But they never had a Counter Guardian try.
 

blackkyuubi

Well-Known Member
I know she has no mark, thank you wash scene's, or at lest one that we can see........ :cumdrool: ...... moving on. I could almost swar though that I read that she was Number00, the proto/origin and she only got the 01 desingation after the original died....... or maybe I got my facts backwards...... though I do have to agree if were talking about EMIYA all bets are off.
 

Kai-

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
Amodelsino said:
Gil doesn't have every last NP. He has magical artifacts that became Noble Phantasms later. Only ones that were created before or during his time though, which is why he doesn't have things like Excalibur or Avalon.
Of course, since when Gilgamesh died it was still the early part of the bronze age, logically these would all suck.

That's one of the things about the Nasuverse that bothers me, I know enough history to be mislead about the story canon because there are a lot of things that Nasu got wrong... at least with Saber, he knew he was changing stuff... but I think he didn't know about Joan of Arc, either.
Magical weapons made when magic was more easily utilized by people.

???
 

sworded

Well-Known Member
Kai- said:
daniel_gudman said:
Amodelsino said:
Gil doesn't have every last NP. He has magical artifacts that became Noble Phantasms later. Only ones that were created before or during his time though, which is why he doesn't have things like Excalibur or Avalon.
Of course, since when Gilgamesh died it was still the early part of the bronze age, logically these would all suck.

That's one of the things about the Nasuverse that bothers me, I know enough history to be mislead about the story canon because there are a lot of things that Nasu got wrong... at least with Saber, he knew he was changing stuff... but I think he didn't know about Joan of Arc, either.
Magical weapons made when magic was more easily utilized by people.

???
With extra power being assigned to them via their legends as well.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
Doesn't change the fact that some of the weapons that are parts of Gil's Gate Of Babylone shouldn't be there merely by virtue of having been invented AFTER his death.

And again, the FREAKING WATER PARK !

How the hell did he get some of this stuff if his Noble Phantasm didn't update itself ?
 

rdde

Well-Known Member
sworded said:
With extra power being assigned to them via their legends as well.
If I were to take a kitchen knife, make it magically keen and then use it to slaughter every other person in the entire world while making sure that everybody focuses on the knife, would I get a magic kitchen knife that can kill the user of Avalon? It would be a legendary kitchen knife for about 3 billion persons against an enchanted scabbard with maybe several hundred million persons at the most.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
rdde said:
sworded said:
With extra power being assigned to them via their legends as well.
If I were to take a kitchen knife, make it magically keen and then use it to slaughter every other person in the entire world while making sure that everybody focuses on the knife, would I get a magic kitchen knife that can kill the user of Avalon? It would be a legendary kitchen knife for about 3 billion persons against an enchanted scabbard with maybe several hundred million persons at the most.
Depends on when and how you made the knife.

A factory-made kitchen knife would probably not cut it. (pardon the pun)

A bone knife made with your own two hands would have a better chance.

A knife made relatively recently would not do.

An ancient knife would.

The biggest factor is you of course. How powerful are you? How old are you? When were you born? All other things being equal, the more powerful, the older, and the earlier you were born, the better.

How the hell did he get some of this stuff if his Noble Phantasm didn't update itself ?
He already had similar stuff which were lost to history and then rediscovered. Hence, the flying saucers.
 

rdde

Well-Known Member
Thanks.

Regarding In Flight, Shirou has to be forced to part from Rin and Saber. After all, why worry about their opinion regarding Akitsu if they're the ones who kicked him out?

While I look forward to Rin and Saber's return, the manga isn't even half way through the six stages. Although GB might short circuit the entire thing by having Shirou kill his father on principle. Otherwise unless he has inside information on how it is going to end, he's going to need to pause his work in order to process the canon ending revelations into his AU or go off with his own ideas.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
Considering that GB already saids that he/she was going to throw canon on its head, I think the second solution is the one most likely to happen...
 

fuyu

Well-Known Member
If I were to take a kitchen knife, make it magically keen and then use it to slaughter every other person in the entire world while making sure that everybody focuses on the knife, would I get a magic kitchen knife that can kill the user of Avalon? It would be a legendary kitchen knife for about 3 billion persons against an enchanted scabbard with maybe several hundred million persons at the most.
Eh, Avalon would still trump the knife. After all, even Ea couldn't pierce Avalon, and Ea was a sword that was made of materials that cannot be found on Earth, in addition to being anti-world.
 

Aarik

Well-Known Member
...

You don't PIERCE Avalon.

That's not possible.

You BYPASS it.

It's right there in the description of what it does, attacks on a level higher then the sixth dimension will slip right by.

So something from the seventh dimension, or higher.
 

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
The whole point of Avalon is that it's not actually there. To attack someone using Avalon you have to be able to get into the land of fairies as well, because the second someone activates Avalon, that's where they are.

@Deathwings: The whole point of GoB is that those weapons were around in his time, inside his actual physical vault. They may have been given different names and gained more power (or lost some) later on, but all the weapons he has were (just like everything else he can summon) created all the way back before (or during) Gil's reign.

Also, he has a magical fighter jet. I really don't see how a water park is that big of a deal.
 

Vorpal

Well-Known Member
Deathwings said:
Gil doesn't have every last NP. He has magical artifacts that became Noble Phantasms later. Only ones that were created before or during his time though, which is why he doesn't have things like Excalibur or Avalon.
If Gate Of Babylone isn't self updating, then where the HELL did that Water Park come from ? :huh:
Hypothesis: Gilgamesh "true" NP is allowing him the use of every noble phantom that came from his empire, before and after his time, even after control of the region shifted through several different empires. That gives him an entire slice of history without any claim to Excalibur, etc. "The entire world" business was naturally just him talking smack, as he's definitely the type for it.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
Amodelsino said:
The whole point of Avalon is that it's not actually there. To attack someone using Avalon you have to be able to get into the land of fairies
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TenguPhule

Well-Known Member
Deathwings said:
Doesn't change the fact that some of the weapons that are parts of Gil's Gate Of Babylone shouldn't be there merely by virtue of having been invented AFTER his death.

And again, the FREAKING WATER PARK !

How the hell did he get some of this stuff if his Noble Phantasm didn't update itself ?
Older then you think.

Many of the more modern legendary weapons are based off of OLDER then dirt stories being told before written words were invented.

Hence Gil gets the originals while everyone else gets the next model down.

I'm fairy certain this was explained in Fate when he pwned Shirou the first time.
 

Gatorade

Well-Known Member
TenguPhule said:
I'm fairy certain this was explained in Fate when he pwned Shirou the first time.
Is that a pun for the recent pics or a typo? I can't really tell.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
TenguPhule said:
Many of the more modern legendary weapons are based off of OLDER then dirt stories being told before written words were invented.

Hence Gil gets the originals while everyone else gets the next model down.
...so Ea of Babylon was forged of a fantastic metal, incomprehensible to man, that was sharper and tougher than anything known, carved directly from a fallen meteor.

Of course, looked at another way, it's just meteoric iron-nickle, that's like 40% of all asteroids, it's nothing special or interesting; it's practically garbage compared to the high-carbon steels coked with manganese and tungsten and whatever.

And there's the so-called "Bronze Age Collapse", where those legends and stories were lost, when the city-states of Mesopotamia were annihilated and their civilizations lost. Because barbarians came along, using weapons of iron, that made them superior warriors; that's the theoretical origin of the "chariots of iron" mentioned in the Bible, capable of defeating even the chosen warriors of God.

I get they're super-mystic "originals", but when they become lost and forgotten because they are obsolete, because they are inferior... I find it hard to believe they'd be more powerful than the superior articles that superseded them.

Of course, that argues against the underlying idea of the canon, not the internal logic of canon.
 

Avider

Well-Known Member
It's kinda hard to argue against a nuclear powered airship.

It's the same general idea as a far off post-apocalyptic future rediscovering modern technology. In this case, we're the far off future, they're the modern tech.

Or is how you could reason it to be. After all, obsolete and inferior technology aren't the only reasons for why they would be lost...technical knowledge is another.
 

sworded

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
...so Ea of Babylon was forged of a fantastic metal, incomprehensible to man, that was sharper and tougher than anything known, carved directly from a fallen meteor.

Of course, looked at another way, it's just meteoric iron-nickle, that's like 40% of all asteroids, it's nothing special or interesting; it's practically garbage compared to the high-carbon steels coked with manganese and tungsten and whatever.
Is it just made of meteoric iron-nickle, or was the meteorite made of something a bit more unique? It could well be made out of some material beyond Man's current ability to understand or produce; Shirou's complete inability to Trace it certainly points in that direction.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
sworded said:
daniel_gudman said:
...so Ea of Babylon was forged of a fantastic metal, incomprehensible to man, that was sharper and tougher than anything known, carved directly from a fallen meteor.

Of course, looked at another way, it's just meteoric iron-nickle, that's like 40% of all asteroids, it's nothing special or interesting; it's practically garbage compared to the high-carbon steels coked with manganese and tungsten and whatever.
Is it just made of meteoric iron-nickle, or was the meteorite made of something a bit more unique? It could well be made out of some material beyond Man's current ability to understand or produce; Shirou's complete inability to Trace it certainly points in that direction.
Well meteors do tend to have a higher-than-average concentration of iridium, to the point that the high concentration of iridium at the K-T boundary was used as supporting evidence for the meteor hypothesis of dinosaur extinction before the crater was found in Mexico.

So no, it isn't beyond man's ability to understand or reproduce.

On the other hand, it means that modern science could make a sword out of the meteor that killed the dinosaurs, so there's that.

EDIT: Also, ever since technecium was first synthesized in 1937, humans have been able to create elements that haven't been around our solar system since... oh, since before the Earth formed. So we can make stuff that, to put it in Nasuverse terms, is beyond the common sense of the world.

We live in heady times....
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
TenguPhule said:
Many of the more modern legendary weapons are based off of OLDER then dirt stories being told before written words were invented.

Hence Gil gets the originals while everyone else gets the next model down.
...so Ea of Babylon was forged of a fantastic metal, incomprehensible to man, that was sharper and tougher than anything known, carved directly from a fallen meteor.

Of course, looked at another way, it's just meteoric iron-nickle, that's like 40% of all asteroids, it's nothing special or interesting; it's practically garbage compared to the high-carbon steels coked with manganese and tungsten and whatever.
It was the original meteor! :p

I kid, I kid. The meteor was almost certainly supernatural itself. In that aspect, such a thing would not be totally unique; another supernatural meteor in the Nasuverse is ORT, also known as Type Mercury, the 5th DAA, a vampiric super-arachnid with the power to turn everything in reality into some kind of white kryptonite. Yes, you <s>heard</s> read that right, it's a spider-like, vampiric, meteor with Unlimited Crystal Works. It's currently slumming in South America, IIRC.

By contrast, some kind of psyker ubermetal from space is almost tame.

Oh, and this is ORT. Ain't she cute?
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This is also ORT.
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And there's the so-called "Bronze Age Collapse", where those legends and stories were lost, when the city-states of Mesopotamia were annihilated and their civilizations lost. Because barbarians came along, using weapons of iron, that made them superior warriors; that's the theoretical origin of the "chariots of iron" mentioned in the Bible, capable of defeating even the chosen warriors of God.

I get they're super-mystic "originals", but when they become lost and forgotten because they are obsolete, because they are inferior... I find it hard to believe they'd be more powerful than the superior articles that superseded them.

Of course, that argues against the underlying idea of the canon, not the internal logic of canon.
You're mixing real life canon and Nasuverse canon. Be careful.

Nasuverse humans were apparently all reality warpers and demigods during Gil's time, and the current modern "superiority" is one built on ignorance; basically, the rise of our sci-tech was just not enough to counteract the loss of our magitech, with the latter being depleted faster than the former can be improved.

Real life canon is just the opposite, as far as we know. There's little physical evidence for magic (not that magic is conducive to producing physical evidence) so we can logically conclude that magic is either non-existent or unimportant in the grand scheme.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
Shiakou said:
You're mixing real life canon and Nasuverse canon. Be careful.

Nasuverse humans were apparently all reality warpers and demigods during Gil's time, and the current modern "superiority" is one built on ignorance; basically, the rise of our sci-tech was just not enough to counteract the loss of our magitech, with the latter being depleted faster than the former can be improved.
That's, that's fair... but since it's Nasu himself that insisted on basing his "secret history" on "real history", I don't feel it's unrealistic to point out what I think are instances where Nasu's personal ignorance makes things less awesome than they otherwise could have been, where even within his own rules he's probably wrong.

For example... perhaps Giglamesh was the "king of heros," but in addition to being a real person as far as archeologists can tell, <a href='http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sargon_of_Akkad' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Sargon of Akkad</a>, "the true king" (that was seriously his nickname), was the first emperor in recorded history. Not the first emperor of that particular era, or the first emperor of the Fertile Crescent, but the first to ever raise up an army and conquer another city and make it also subordinate to him. The first emperor.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
True, but alas, even Nasu isn't perfect.

That said, perfection is unnecessary to entertain people.

*eyes Gabriel Blessing and his horde of <s>Fate-haters</s> fanboys

. . . Very unnecessary.

Besides, there's a reasonable explanation for that too. Magic in the Nasuverse is a limited resource. The more people who know the "secret history", the more people would become mages. The more mages, the more diluted magic would become. As a result, your average mage is a greedy magic-hoarding bastard.

You know, in addition to being a stuck-up maverick with delusions of grandeur and a superiority complex. On this, Gabriel Blessing and I share similar views; Nasuverse mages are generally dicks.
 
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