Nasuverse Fate/time loop

Shaderic

Well-Known Member
#51
Reminds me of an argument with a friend of mine who's a DC fan.

Could Shiki kill Superman?
 

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#52
No. Ryougi couldn't either. He's an alien.

People really need to accept that Shiki can't kill everything. He's not made to kill everything, he's made to be a badass DAA killing assassin. Shirou is made to be a badass NP wielding Servant killer (though Shirou has a much better chance of killing one of the DAA than Shiki does of killing an Eirei).
 
#53
What do you mean Ryougi couldn't? She can kill things like distance, and has almost none of Shiki's weaknesses.
 

Vascudo

Well-Known Member
#55
They can only kill concepts that are from Earth.
Just like Shirou can only summon equipment made from Earth materials

The Throne of Heroes and Servants are from a another plane of existence, so Shiki's eyes would be utterly useless.
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
#56
Question: Could Shiki permanently kill the "flow" of prana to a Servant? That is, make it so so that the Servant is permanently unable to access prana from a Master/environment/anything external and distinct from the Servant itself?

Reason being that, IIRC, when Shiki perma-killed some of Chaos' beasts, he could no longer regenerate them, even though Chaos by its nature was supposed to be self-regenerating.

The effect, if it is possible, would be to prana-starve the Servant to death. Even Servants with high levels in Independent Action would be vulnerable; it's not just the link to a Master, but every external source of prana (food, sex, ambient prana) would be inaccessable to the Servant.
 

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#57
Kill the master, yes. Kill the mana in the environment? No. He can't do shit to the Servants themselves. End of story.

The reason Nero couldn't regenerate is because his beasts weren't just physically destroyed (i.e. cut up or blown up), but had their existence destroyed completely. The 'soil' used to create them was gone. It no longer existed in any form.
 

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#59
He can't even kill poison without going blind. Assuming he can kill all of the mana in an environment is just stupid. It's like saying Shirou can trace Black Barrel because it never specifically says he can't, despite it logically being beyond his abilities.

Not to mention he can't kill Shirou's traced constructs without killing himself (not the prana they're made of, just the construct).
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
#60
Amodelsino said:
He can't even kill poison without going blind. Assuming he can kill all of the mana in an environment is just stupid. It's like saying Shirou can trace Black Barrel because it never specifically says he can't, despite it logically being beyond his abilities.

Not to mention he can't kill Shirou's traced constructs without killing himself (not the prana they're made of, just the construct).
So the statement is not:

"It has been clearly stated in canon that Shiki is unable to kill mana."

but rather

"It is only theoretically but logically impossible for Shiki to kill mana without killing himself."

Thing is, mana/prana is not only of Earthly origin, it's also being produced by even normal people. Shiki himself is technically Len's Master and provides her with prana.

I guess what I'm saying is, if Shiki was in a suicidal or desperate mood, there's nothing stopping him from achieving this feat before dying.

Determination is a mighty force in the Nasuverse. Even the villains are able to break logic through sheer willpower (Kotomine surviving for a few days without a heart, Heracles breaking through Enkido. . .) In a fight to the death, I wouldn't put it past Shiki to be capable of this.
 

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#61
Yes. I agree that he might be able to do so while killing himself in the process. However this wouldn't even slow a servant down, as they use their own prana (or, rather, the prana received from the grail and their master). Only ones who were mages like Cuchulain and Medea even really use mana for anything anyway.

Besides, from the way you said it, I was under the impression you meant killing all the forms of power the servant could draw upon in order to starve them out. Killing himself while doing it wouldn't help.

I don't see the point of theorizing this anyway, as he could just kill their master. He can be extremely sneaky when he wants to be. He's an assassin, not a warrior.

Although, wouldn't becoming a Dead Apostle allow him to do stuff like that and survive? He did some pretty crazy stuff in Ciel's route.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#62
Although, wouldn't becoming a Dead Apostle allow him to do stuff like that and survive? He did some pretty crazy stuff in Ciel's route.
Yes, though damage to Shiki's brain wouldn't regenerate so much as it would reverse. Mad hax time bull****. And technically he'd be designated a vampire. You don't get to be called a dead apostle unless you kill your sire.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#65
Liam-don said:
What if it was Arcueid? :rolleyes:
Arcueid would qualify for the little death, certainly.
 

Amodelsino

Well-Known Member
#66
If it was Arcueid he wouldn't need to kill her to classify as a Dead Apostle. Otherwise Roa would be a Vampire.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he'd classify as one of the 27 as long as he killed either Roa or Nero. That's all it took for ORT to be put on the list.
 

Mechatrill

Well-Known Member
#67
Amodelsino said:
If it was Arcueid he wouldn't need to kill her to classify as a Dead Apostle. Otherwise Roa would be a Vampire.

Actually, I'm pretty sure he'd classify as one of the 27 as long as he killed either Roa or Nero. That's all it took for ORT to be put on the list.
Well... That and simply being an alien existence of unimaginable power capable of ripping through most of the other DAA like tissue paper...
 

Raven

Well-Known Member
#68
From what I understood, being a member of the dead apostles was more politically based, and the only reason Roa wasn't included was because they didn't like him.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#69
Raven said:
From what I understood, being a member of the dead apostles was more politically based, and the only reason Roa wasn't included was because they didn't like him.
Interesting. Where do you get that from?
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
#71
Yeah, I think only Nrvnqsr liked Roa.

Besides, from the way you said it, I was under the impression you meant killing all the forms of power the servant could draw upon in order to starve them out. Killing himself while doing it wouldn't help.
Not exactly. I meant killing the concept of the "transfer" of mana to the Servant.

Think of the Servant as a water balloon. You can put water (prana) into a water balloon through hundreds of sources (these sources being analogous to sources of prana). But what happens if all pathways for moisture are destroyed, for example, by placing the balloon in a vacumn. Even if a very large source of water is nearby, it cannot get through the vacumn to inflate the balloon.

What I was thinking that Shiki might be capable of was killing the concept of "transfer" of mana itself, essentially putting a permanent "non-medium" between the Servant and the external sources of mana.

Of course, this is a nigh-impossible feat, like killing gravity or space, so I wouldn't be surprised if Shiki died almost immediately afterward.

Yes, though damage to Shiki's brain wouldn't regenerate so much as it would reverse. Mad hax time bull****. And technically he'd be designated a vampire. You don't get to be called a dead apostle unless you kill your sire.
I'm not sure, but I think I heard somewhere that the Mystic Eyes might not work anymore if Shiki is turned into a vampire, because vampires are recorded as beings that are already technically dead. Don't know if that's canon though.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#72
Of course, this is a nigh-impossible feat, like killing gravity or space, so I wouldn't be surprised if Shiki died almost immediately afterward.
I think he'd go blind again. Like with the poison. Killing concepts on a whole is just bad juju. Don't do it.
 

Aarik

Well-Known Member
#73
I've been dealing with this a bit better, it probably helped that each loop was a little bit earlier in my life then the last so far, but this one... it had skipped to be two month's before the first servant was summoned.

Before this the longest step back from the one before it had been a day...

Enough with that, with this much time I should be able to get some of my power back, I should work on that before anything else.

-----------Timeskip 57 days-----------

I have everything set up, it's time to summon my servant, but... if these loops are going to keep on going I should probably try to shake thing's up, eternal boredom and monotony just doesn't suit me at all, besides it could not hurt to just try it...

If I want the servant I want I should prepare accordingly, but how could I possibly align myself more with... Ahhh... That would work.

"I am the bone of my sword." I drew out Kanshou and Bakuya.

"Steel is my body, and fire is my blood." I pulled out Caladbolg II.

"I have created over a thousand blades,
Unknown to death,
Nor known to life." Hrunting was drawn.

"Have withstood pain to create many weapons." Each was placed in the circle, there were light's as a second, familiar voice echoed with my own...

"Yet those hands will never hold anything." It intoned with me.

"So, as I pray - Unlimited Blade Works!" We both finished.

I took a look at the one standing there. Damn I was... Am going to be... am... damn time travel.

"Hello Master/Archer"

______________

Yes it does suck, but I couldn't get it out of my head.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#74
I really like the idea of Shirou summoning, well, himself as a Servant. And not just because of the personality clash between the two.

I just think it would be funny to see all the other masters, being all "who'd you summon?" and Shirou is like, "uh, me." It's just too funny... plus it would allow him to have an awful lot of foreknowledge if the Servant has already fought in "this" war.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#75
Yeah, the Saber Alter scene and this Archer scene are begging for more to be written. As am I! ;)
 
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