Nasuverse Fate/time loop

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Cherry_lover said:
MastaofBitches said:
Zouken can out plan pretty much anybody, and would guaranteed have back up and contingency plans waiting.
No, Zouken can out-plan most people. Archer ain't one of them....

Thinking Sakura attacking him wouldn't be covered in one of them, is being entirely biased, and ignoring Zouken's abilities in canon.
What, you mean like Sakura attacking him was covered in the plan he used in HF? (And, yes, I'm being sarcastic here...).

Zouken is a pretty damn good planner, yes, but he has the fatal flaw of underestimating the mental strength of others, especially people who are under his control. That's what killed him in HF, ultimately, and that's what allowed Sakura to surprise him here.

Plus, what could he have done? Even if he'd somehow gotten hold of her, Archer would have rescued her, and probably killed him in the process. He could have outright killed her, perhaps, but how would that have helped him?
You're still underestimating him, he didn;t get as far along as he did in HF by being a useless old man with no skills, and yes he can, in fact, out plan Archer.

The only thing that gives Archer an edge, is he's from the future, and you're still ignoring his probable back up plans to get Sakura, or simply find another host.
 

Jomasten

Well-Known Member
Mrrh, still a bit under the influence from the previous snippet, so might as well do this.


***

Nine Years Ago

"AAGH!" Shirou woke up with a start. Looking around wildly, he finally was able to see through the darkness, that he was at his room in the Tohsaka Mansion.

'A dream....a memory...' He told himself as he got off of his bed, then ran out of the room like he was on fire.

'Please...oh, by the Root, please...' he desperately told himself as he finally came up to a particular door, then quietly opened it.

He knew that what he feared was irrational. But, that particular memory his mind drudged up...

He gave a silent sigh of relief as he saw both Rin and Sakura, asleep on the same bed. He gave a sad smile as Sakura snuggled deeper into Rin's protective embrace, as if keeping her away from bad dreams.

A bad dream that will never happen, Shirou opined to himself as he closed the door with a silent click.

Later

The Servant found himself at the kitchen, gulping down a glass of water, quenching his rather dry throat. He sat down on a chair, pondering what occurred in his sleep.

He could still remember that particular Loop, and why he made a decision to commit himself on changing this Loop for at least the better.

"I was so alone all the time, Sempai. Waiting for you to come to me."

He could still vividly remember those sad dead eyes, and a smile that never reached those eyes. He tried to will back the unbidden memories.

"But, every time, I waited, and waited, and waited."

He took another gulp of water, washing down the bile rising, as he still felt the disgusting feel of the darkness caressing him.

"And all this time, I was hurt, and I was hurt, and I was hurt."

He shook his head, trying to fight back tears that came, reminding him of his failure. And why he was doing this, and why he had to do this.

He knew for a fact that That Sakura had been Awake for the most part. He had encountered her several times, and had managed to avoid her insofar. Who knows where she is now, hunting down her precious Sempai.

One way or another, though, just as he saved the Sakura here, that he would also save That Sakura as well...

"Uuumuu, Archer-san?" Archer jumped at the soft sleepy voice. He turned towards the entrance, and saw Little Sakura in her pajamas, rubbing her eyes.

"Sakura, what are you doing here?" Archer asked, finally pushing back and locking away the memories.

"Was thirsty..." Sakura mumbled as she padded towards Archer.

He had to smile gently, "Okay, I'll get you a glass."

He did so, and watched as Sakura took the glass with both hands, then drank the contents down, giving out a cute 'puwah~' as she finished.

EMIYA took the glass, then set it down on the sink. "Here, lemme carry you up." He finally said, scooping up little Sakura into his arms.

"Uumuu, thank you, Archer-san..." Sakura murmured, nuzzling his shoulder in comfort as she began to drift off again into sleep.

EMIYA watched her sleep, then, as he finished the climbing the stairs, and tucking her in at her bed beside Rin in their room, he made a vow.

I will never fail again.

*****

*somewhat ignores the bickering so he can focus on doing as he damn well please*


EDITED FOR 'OGOD Y?':


Omake:

***

EMIYA was sure That Sakura was still out there. Who knows what she's doing now, in her eternal search for her precious Sempai?

Somewhere Else

Subject Zero, also known as Jack, cursed, "Fuck, I fold."

That Sakura giggled, then took in the pot, "Haha, come to mama~"

Alma Wade grumbled as she gulped down a shot of her tequila, then began folding, "And you said that I was using my telepathy to cheat."

Jack snarled at Alma's semi-smug look, "Fuck, I was wrong, okay!?" She grumbled again as she took her dealt hand.

Sadako took a sip of her drink, then said, "..."

That Sakura answered her, "Why, because I'm just THAT lucky~"

Sadako gave her a pointed look, "...?"

That Sakura had the decency to look sheepish, "Of course I'm not using my Shadows to influence the game. Its the same reason why Alma-san can't use her telepathy to read our minds, and/or influence the game."

Sadako rolled her eyes behind her hair, "..."

Jack took this moment to put in her chips, "Shit, 'Dako's right. Shut the fuck up and let's just fucking play."

Alma rolled her shoulders, "Fine. But the dare still stands; we start losing our clothes once the chips are gone."

Alma laughed at Jack's grumbling, at Sadako's slightly embarrassed shuffle, and at That Sakura's giggle.

*****


:rip1:
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
You're still underestimating him, he didn;t get as far along as he did in HF by being a useless old man with no skills, and yes he can, in fact, out plan Archer.

The only thing that gives Archer an edge, is he's from the future, and you're still ignoring his probable back up plans to get Sakura, or simply find another host.
No, I'm not underestimating him, I just don't see what "plan" he could have to get Sakura. If it were that easy, he wouldn't have needed to bother asking Tokiomi for her in the first place, he'd have just taken her, and Rin too.

As for finding another "host", firstly what are you talking about (Zouken doesn't need a "host", he needs heirs to train and to fight in the Grail Wars, putting his soul worm inside Sakura was just a way to give him more control over her) and secondly what's to say that he wouldn't find someone else, or at least try? It's probably a better back-up plan than to attempt to kidnap an unwilling young girl who is actually a more powerful magus than you from under the nose of her even more powerful big sister, their Heroic Spirit guardian and, also, a priest who would gladly take the opportunity to kill off Zouken if he were called upon to assist in protecting Sakura (and, yes, he would, because having Sakura there gives him more people to troll).

Oh, and, another thing, whilst the Nasuverse may well be a dark place, the nature of this fic (the "repeated time loop" idea) lends itself naturally to a much lighter outcome, because if you repeat the same events enough times, you will eventually work out how to save everyone, which is the stage that Archer is at now. It would be silly for every loop to be dark, because once Archer has worked out how to save Sakura once, he's too smart to fuck up a second time. Zouken may be pretty smart too, but (entirely reasonably) he wasn't counting on coming across an enemy who has as much knowledge as Archer does. The fact that he's still alive at all shows how resourceful he is.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
To me, it seems to me that MoB has either an unsurmountable aversion toward Sakura or the concept of a "Perfect Route", where everyone come out happy (or at least far better off) aside from the Complete Monsters.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Yes, I hate this concept of a "perfect route" because it's only perfect to your perspective, to me it's just a soap opera with Fate characters.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
Yes, I hate this concept of a "perfect route" because it's only perfect to your perspective, to me it's just a soap opera with Fate characters.
Just because everyone is happy, that doesn't mean that it is a "soap opera". It's quite possible for them to be total badasses and then save everyone, especially when Archer has the benefit of many loops worth of experience. Certainly, it's a lot more interesting than your standard "ridiculously depressing" story where everyone suffers and dies, except maybe one or two characters (which, oddly enough, is almost never Sakura...). You can tell where those stories are going from the very start (because the author is usually quite obviously a whiny emo who can't comprehend the concept that some people might actually want to see the characters get to be happy, and have some sense of fairness), and I just don't see the appeal of them. I agree that Deus Ex Machina endings where everyone lives because the author pulled some polt device to save them out of their ass without any logic behind it are stupid, but Diablous Ex Machina bad endings (which you seem to favour) are equally bad.

Given the situation here, there is no way in hell that Zouken would get his hands on Sakura, because Archer would simply not allow it. And, even if Zouken is a better planner, Archer is stronger and he has the element of surprise. Once Zouken saw the situation, he would give up on trying to grab Sakura and find another way of achieving his goal, because the only reason he really took Sakura in the first place was because it required little effort on his part. If Tokiomi hadn't agreed to the deal, then Sakura would have remained a Tohsaka, no matter how much Zouken wanted to get hold of her, and the same applies if someone else is there to "nullify" the deal.
 

Deathwings

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
Yes, I hate this concept of a "perfect route" because it's only perfect to your perspective, to me it's just a soap opera with Fate characters.
Which basically means that you are trying to enforce your TASTE on other people's.

Right, as if...

Good luck with that, I'll be ignoring you from now on.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Deathwings said:
MastaofBitches said:
Yes, I hate this concept of a "perfect route" because it's only perfect to your perspective, to me it's just a soap opera with Fate characters.
Which basically means that you are trying to enforce your TASTE on other people's.

Right, as if...

Good luck with that, I'll be ignoring you from now on.
You were ignoring me before :mellow:
 

Jomasten

Well-Known Member
Everyone STFU and appreciate my snippets! :p :lol:

EDIT: In your case, MoB, scorn them for being boring and bland.

Let's just drop this. Don't wanna feel guilty for indirectly starting this arguement.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Jomasten said:
Everyone STFU and appreciate my snippets! :p :lol:

EDIT: In your case, MoB, scorn them for being boring and bland.

Let's just drop this. Don't wanna feel guilty for indirectly starting this arguement.
Scorning people only works when they care.

To be perfectly honest, I'm just trying to understand why somebody would say they like something, only to turn around and hate the setting and genre for it.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
To be perfectly honest, I'm just trying to understand why somebody would say they like something, only to turn around and hate the setting and genre for it.
Because we don't hate the setting and genre, at least not entirely, and even if we did it's possible to dislike the setting whilst thinking the work is well-written and well-characterised.

For a start, for all the darkness in FSN, the endings are mostly happy, at least in presentation. Bad things happen, and they're not perfect, but they're generally pretty up-beat (with the notable exception of HF Normal, and that's clearly supposed to upset people). Secondly, it's possible to like a story as a whole without liking every single aspect of it. To me, what I like the most about FSN is the characters, together with the fact that, for all the darkness in it, things do turn out OK in the end, to at least some extent.

Plus, just because the setting of the story is somewhat dark, that doesn't mean that the story itself, or indeed the ending, must be. The Nasuverse has a lot wrong with it (relative to our world), but that doesn't preclude any individual story from having a good ending, any more than the fact that our world isn't a nightmareish hellhole with people that can kill you with a thought who couldn't give a shit about your well-being means that everyone here is guarenteed to be happy. I don't see why having a perfect ending or giving Sakura (and Rin) a proper childhood is in any way going against the setting, provided it's done in a manner which actually makes sense.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
Yes, I hate this concept of a "perfect route" because it's only perfect to your perspective, to me it's just a soap opera with Fate characters.
My grandmother watches soap operas. I couldn't get into them, but from what I can tell, all the characters are either victims, bystanders, villians, or some combination thereof, who mostly hate each other, and make each other miserable. That sounds nothing like a hypothetical 'perfect route'.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
Prince Charon said:
My grandmother watches soap operas. I couldn't get into them, but from what I can tell, all the characters are either victims, bystanders, villians, or some combination thereof, who mostly hate each other, and make each other miserable. That sounds nothing like a hypothetical 'perfect route'.
Yeah, you have a point here. Soap operas are actually generally very dark in nature, because a realistic protrayal of life would make pretty boring TV, so they have to spice things up by throwing in lots of tragedy, drama and conflict.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Cherry_lover said:
MastaofBitches said:
To be perfectly honest, I'm just trying to understand why somebody would say they like something, only to turn around and hate the setting and genre for it.
Because we don't hate the setting and genre, at least not entirely, and even if we did it's possible to dislike the setting whilst thinking the work is well-written and well-characterised.

For a start, for all the darkness in FSN, the endings are mostly happy, at least in presentation. Bad things happen, and they're not perfect, but they're generally pretty up-beat (with the notable exception of HF Normal, and that's clearly supposed to upset people). Secondly, it's possible to like a story as a whole without liking every single aspect of it. To me, what I like the most about FSN is the characters, together with the fact that, for all the darkness in it, things do turn out OK in the end, to at least some extent.

Plus, just because the setting of the story is somewhat dark, that doesn't mean that the story itself, or indeed the ending, must be. The Nasuverse has a lot wrong with it (relative to our world), but that doesn't preclude any individual story from having a good ending, any more than the fact that our world isn't a nightmareish hellhole with people that can kill you with a thought who couldn't give a shit about your well-being means that everyone here is guarenteed to be happy. I don't see why having a perfect ending or giving Sakura (and Rin) a proper childhood is in any way going against the setting, provided it's done in a manner which actually makes sense.
But this isn't a manner that makes sense, this is just a manner that involves bashing Zouken and Shinji.

Also, wasn't Zouken's adoption of Sakura legal? The kind of legal that would get Archer jail time for stopping him from taking her?

Prince Charon said:
MastaofBitches said:
Yes, I hate this concept of a "perfect route" because it's only perfect to your perspective, to me it's just a soap opera with Fate characters.
My grandmother watches soap operas. I couldn't get into them, but from what I can tell, all the characters are either victims, bystanders, villians, or some combination thereof, who mostly hate each other, and make each other miserable. That sounds nothing like a hypothetical 'perfect route'.
Well, I'm not quite sure what else to call something with an entirely domestic family setting.
 
MastaofBitches said:
Well, I'm not quite sure what else to call something with an entirely domestic family setting.
Slice of life.

And in regards to your little argument, I think that happy endings are good, as long as you earn them. That means no Deus Ex Machina to make things better, which naturally precludes the Diabolus Ex Machina making things worse, as well. (Not because I don't want good or bad things to happen, but because I want there to be plot-related, logical reasons for them to happen, rather than coming out of nowhere like said plot devices.)

Archer certainly had time to plan this out, and we know he did so, so the earning clearly happened, even if it was off-screen, so I consider this happy ending earned (and rather cathartic, as well--always a good thing to see the Smug Snake and the Manipulative Bastard taken down a peg or ten).
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
MutantRancor said:
MastaofBitches said:
Well, I'm not quite sure what else to call something with an entirely domestic family setting.
Slice of life.

And in regards to your little argument, I think that happy endings are good, as long as you earn them. That means no Deus Ex Machina to make things better, which naturally precludes the Diabolus Ex Machina making things worse, as well. (Not because I don't want good or bad things to happen, but because I want there to be plot-related, logical reasons for them to happen, rather than coming out of nowhere like said plot devices.)

Archer certainly had time to plan this out, and we know he did so, so the earning clearly happened, even if it was off-screen, so I consider this happy ending earned (and rather cathartic, as well--always a good thing to see the Smug Snake and the Manipulative Bastard taken down a peg or ten).
I'm pretty sure Archer being summoned at all counts as a Deus Ex Machina, and he certainly didn't plan on being summoned by two children, who should not have been capable of doing it.

And where is Archer's prana coming from? Unless he's having sex with two little girls, he should have faded away after the third day of summoning.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
But this isn't a manner that makes sense, this is just a manner that involves bashing Zouken and Shinji.
What?

Did you actually read the story? Sakura didn't just show up there and kick Shinji in the bollocks, the whole thing was planned out by Archer to ensure that Sakura would be safe.

Also, wasn't Zouken's adoption of Sakura legal? The kind of legal that would get Archer jail time for stopping him from taking her?
In the original game, yes, Sakura's adoption was done legally (hence why she's called Matou Sakura), although I doubt that, even there, Archer rescuing her would result in him getting jail time (especially given what Zouken was doing to her). Here, however, I don't think that it is, because it's an AU where Sakura hadn't yet been given to the Matou family, and I'm pretty sure that you can't sign pre-contracts saying that your child will be handed over to someone else on a certain date even against their wishes. Children aren't property to be traded, they're people who have to be taken care of, and thus some old contract signed several years ago isn't likely to be considered by any court as justification for forcing them to change families against their will. An adoption only has legal force once the child has been registered by the government, at which point the adoptive parents are legally considered to be the child's real parents (hence why taking them away is illegal). Prior to that point, there is no legal force whatsoever behind any agreement to allow someone to adopt a child at a later date, at least not in terms of forcing someone to go through with that agreement. The most he could get Archer for would be a breach of contract, but given that he never signed the contract in the first place....

But, even if that were the case, Zouken is hardly likely to take Archer to court over it, and even if he tried, there's not an awful lot that the police could do, since Archer (with Rin and Sakura's help) could quite easily prevent them from enforcing any court ruling, or even use magic to prevent one from being made in the first place. Magi largely live outside the normal legal system, and I doubt Zouken would be stupid enough to invite them to poke their nose in, given that every single member of his family has mysteriously disappeared and he has a mausoleum full of magical worms in his basement, plus he's responsible for the murder of thousands of people.

If he were going to appeal to anyone, it would be the Magic Association, but in all honesty I doubt they could give a shit and, plus, Rin, as the second owner of the land, would probably be the one responsible for dealing with any such disputes anyway.

MastaofBitches said:
I'm pretty sure Archer being summoned at all counts as a Deus Ex Machina
Well, perhaps, but no more so than any of the other loop ideas, really.

he certainly didn't plan on being summoned by two children
And, nor did he plan on being summoned into any of the other loops. That's how it works....

who should not have been capable of doing it.
Well, this is arguably true, but the same applies to the entire premise of this fic (Archer getting into a time loop) and, besides, the concept for it wasn't invented by Jomasten, he just took the idea and ran with it.

And where is Archer's prana coming from? Unless he's having sex with two little girls, he should have faded away after the third day of summoning.
Both Rin and Sakura are shown to be capable of supporting servants without the Grail (Rin does so in UBW Good, and whilst Shirou is stated to be "helping" her, I can't see how he can be of that much use, given how much larger her prana supply is than his), so the two of them combined should have no problem with doing so.
 
If you go back and read the first snippet of the series in question again, you'll see mention of Sakura and Rin each having one and a half Command Seals, so there's a contract active--if I understood the Fate/Stay Night prologue correctly, that means that as long as the command seals aren't used up, he (or Sakura and/or Rin) isn't killed somehow, and he doesn't get a wish from the Grail, Archer will continue to draw prana from them through the contract. As none of those things have happened, he can stick around as long as he wants.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Cherry_lover said:
who should not have been capable of doing it.
Well, this is arguably true, but the same applies to the entire premise of this fic (Archer getting into a time loop) and, besides, the concept for it wasn't invented by Jomasten, he just took the idea and ran with it.
Archer is perfectly capable of getting himself stuck in a time loop, Shirou's already done it once in canon.

What do you think would happen when Archer successfully creates a paradox? He'll vanish? No, the world will loop time until he undoes the damage.

Cherry_lover said:
And where is Archer's prana coming from? Unless he's having sex with two little girls, he should have faded away after the third day of summoning.
Both Rin and Sakura are shown to be capable of supporting servants without the Grail (Rin does so in UBW Good, and whilst Shirou is stated to be "helping" her, I can't see how he can be of that much use, given how much larger her prana supply is than his), so the two of them combined should have no problem with doing so.
Rin was only capable of mentaining one with Shirou's help, and that still invovled them having sex, that's how mana transfer works.

In order for Sakura and Rin to maintain Archer, they would need to have sex with him once ever three days.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
What do you think would happen when Archer successfully creates a paradox? He'll vanish? No, the world will loop time until he undoes the damage.
No, because Archer can't create a paradox. Even if he kills Shirou, he's still not truly killing himself, because that Shirou is following a different path already.

Rin was only capable of mentaining one with Shirou's help, and that still invovled them having sex, that's how mana transfer works.
Actually, I'm not all that sure that Rin really did need Shirou's help to maintain Saber (I think it was more an attempt to wind him up), and even if she did, she was having sex with him to transfer prana from him to her, not from her to Saber. Saber was getting prana from her just like Archer is here (through their contract). And, with two Tohsaka sisters to power him, there is absolutely no issue, because two people with Rin's prana supply are bound to be better than one plus a guy transferring a rather limited amount of prana to her via sex.

In order for Sakura and Rin to maintain Archer, they would need to have sex with him once ever three days.
Erm, by that logic, every master would have to have sex with their servant once every three days.


You know, for someone who seems so wedded to the idea of everything having to "fit in with the setting" (i.e. "b..but, all these fictional characters are less miserable than me, we can't have that..."), you seem to know remarkably little about how that setting actually works. If you really must tear stories apart because you don't like the concept behind them (and I can't really complain on that front, because I've certainly done it before...), at least have the decency to actually check your facts first.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Cherry_lover said:
MastaofBitches said:
What do you think would happen when Archer successfully creates a paradox? He'll vanish? No, the world will loop time until he undoes the damage.
No, because Archer can't create a paradox. Even if he kills Shirou, he's still not truly killing himself, because that Shirou is following a different path already.
But that doesn't change the fact that Shirou himself has gone through a time loop, or something very similar.

Cherry_lover said:
Rin was only capable of mentaining one with Shirou's help, and that still invovled them having sex, that's how mana transfer works.
Actually, I'm not all that sure that Rin really did need Shirou's help to maintain Saber (I think it was more an attempt to wind him up), and even if she did, she was having sex with him to transfer prana from him to her, not from her to Saber. Saber was getting prana from her just like Archer is here (through their contract). And, with two Tohsaka sisters to power him, there is absolutely no issue, because two people with Rin's prana supply are bound to be better than one plus a guy transferring a rather limited amount of prana to her via sex.
If the contract is what gives the Servant Prana, why doses Shirou need to have Sex with Saber to power her up?

Cherry_lover said:
In order for Sakura and Rin to maintain Archer, they would need to have sex with him once ever three days.
Erm, by that logic, every master would have to have sex with their servant.
Or have their servants running around eating souls like Rider, Caster and Gilgamesh have too.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
But that doesn't change the fact that Shirou himself has gone through a time loop, or something very similar.
When?

If the contract is what gives the Servant Prana, why doses Shirou need to have Sex with Saber to power her up?
Because Shirou didn't form the contract properly, and is also a totally shit magus who doesn't even have his magic circuits open. Even so, he only has sex with Saber in one route.

Or have their servants running around eating souls like Rider, Caster and Gilgamesh have too.
Rider never does that when under Sakura's control, and Rin never does either with Archer (she sure as hell doesn't have sex with him, and there's no way that either of them would agree to eat souls). Ditto Berserker with Ilya (there's no indication that she's eating souls, and it doesn't seem like the sort of thing that she would do). The same applies, in fact, to Dark Sakura, since she never orders Dark Saber or Berserker to eat souls, and when Saber heals herself following the fight with Shirou, the only way she can get prana is through her connection to Sakura.

Either the entire FSN cast (except Sakura, Shirou, Rider and Saber) are a lot more evil than we thought, or you are just plain totally wrong. And, since I've actually played the game and know that masters transfer prana to their servants via their connection, I can tell you with absolute certainty that you are wrong.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Cherry_lover said:
MastaofBitches said:
But that doesn't change the fact that Shirou himself has gone through a time loop, or something very similar.
When?
Hollow Axteria, I think... I have problems remembering which game is which, outside of the main one.
 

Cherry_lover

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
Hollow Axteria, I think... I have problems remembering which game is which, outside of the main one.
Hollow Ataraxia isn't "real", though, I believe. I think that it's actually all an illusion created to keep Bazett alive, or something like that.
 

MastaofBitches

Well-Known Member
Cherry_lover said:
MastaofBitches said:
Hollow Axteria, I think... I have problems remembering which game is which, outside of the main one.
Hollow Ataraxia isn't "real", though, I believe. I think that it's actually all an illusion created to keep Bazett alive, or something like that.
I've never played it, so all I know about it is that it involves a time loop, and somehow the servants are running around again.
 
Top