Nasuverse [FSN] Centralized Random Idea Thread

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
Yeah, he's boned. Archer normally takes his time, but seeing this Shirou he'll immediately put an arrow between his eyes.
 
The two times I've seen someone try to continue it, one had Shirou burn down the Matou house, managing to kill Zouken and Assassin teamed up with him, and the other had him get some help from Kirei and Gilgamesh.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
I honestly doubt that a simple fire would take down Zouken and a Servant, even if it's Assassin; and isn't Gil basically dead by this point in the story. I mean you probably could justify it, but him coming back would not be something I would bother to really do. Personally, if I had to really do this scenario, I would find some way to justify Shirou getting black Saber back after the Shadow faded away and then have this tragedy play to its grim conclusion.
 
I think you misread his statement. He said Assassin teamed up with MoS!Shirou. You're right about Zouken though.
 

Nephirin

Well-Known Member
Azure said:
I honestly doubt that a simple fire would take down Zouken and a Servant, even if it's Assassin; and isn't Gil basically dead by this point in the story. I mean you probably could justify it, but him coming back would not be something I would bother to really do. Personally, if I had to really do this scenario, I would find some way to justify Shirou getting black Saber back after the Shadow faded away and then have this tragedy play to its grim conclusion.
Gil isn't dead until quite a bit later in Heaven's Feel.  At this point it would be False Assassin, Caster, Lancer, and Saber dead.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
Rising Dragon said:
I think you misread his statement. He said Assassin teamed up with MoS!Shirou. You're right about Zouken though.
Ah, sorry about that, it was my mistake.

Nephirin said:
Azure said:
I honestly doubt that a simple fire would take down Zouken and a Servant, even if it's Assassin; and isn't Gil basically dead by this point in the story. I mean you probably could justify it, but him coming back would not be something I would bother to really do. Personally, if I had to really do this scenario, I would find some way to justify Shirou getting black Saber back after the Shadow faded away and then have this tragedy play to its grim conclusion.
Gil isn't dead until quite a bit later in Heaven's Feel.  At this point it would be False Assassin, Caster, Lancer, and Saber dead.
Well Sakura had already ate him by then, right? Gil probably wasn't completely devoured by then (referring to the quote about why there isn't a black Gil in HF), so you could justify him coming back easily. But personally I would have made the call for him not returning if I had to write this bad ending out.
 
You know, Superhero Shirou doesn't actually have a hand in Sakura's death. Rin is the one who kills her, and it isn't like Shirou is egging her on. I wonder what the odds are of Rider siding with him for revenge against Rin?

As for Archer, is there any reason at all that UBW would be inaccessible to Superhero Shirou? He pulls it out in the fight against Gil in UBW by reaffirming his ideals to himself, and in Superhero he's just doubled down on that.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
Shirou only got UBW in that route because he spent a lot of time with Archer so he had the chance to steal the skills from his future self, here Shirou probably won't have the chance since Archer won't play along this time and will go for the quick kill. Plus the Mind of Steel is far away from Shirou's ideal, even Archer at his worst probably was not at that level. Rider would probably still aim for Shirou since he allowed Rin to kill Sakura when he promised to protect her.
 
I thought the promise to protect Sakura was made later? I'll have to re-read the LP of Heaven's Feel.

Doesn't Rin have a Command Spell on Archer preventing him from attacking Shirou? I remember that was his reason for joining Caster in UBW route.

Mind of Steel sounds exactly like Archer. Three people (Ilya, Shirou himself, and Kotomine) all state that he's become Kiritsugu in that ending, and pre-Heroic Spirit Archer can basically be considered Kiritsugu 2.0.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
Rin didn't give the command seal on Archer in this route, remember? The thing about Archer is that he never went full Kerry in life, remember that in Rin's flashback she talks about how he tried his best to be an ideal hero and how he tried sacrifice himself when it came to make a choice between the few and the many. Archer never was the cold-headed utilitarian Kerry was at his worst. It was in death, when he was forced to become Kiritsugu 2.0 as a CG that he became broken and bitter.
 

Nephirin

Well-Known Member
Azure said:
Rising Dragon said:
I think you misread his statement.  He said Assassin teamed up with MoS!Shirou.  You're right about Zouken though.
Ah, sorry about that, it was my mistake.


Nephirin said:
Azure said:
I honestly doubt that a simple fire would take down Zouken and a Servant, even if it's Assassin; and isn't Gil basically dead by this point in the story. I mean you probably could justify it, but him coming back would not be something I would bother to really do. Personally, if I had to really do this scenario, I would find some way to justify Shirou getting black Saber back after the Shadow faded away and then have this tragedy play to its grim conclusion.
Gil isn't dead until quite a bit later in Heaven's Feel.  At this point it would be False Assassin, Caster, Lancer, and Saber dead.
Well Sakura had already ate him by then, right? Gil probably wasn't completely devoured by then (referring to the quote about why there isn't a black Gil in HF), so you could justify him coming back easily. But personally I would have made the call for him not returning if I had to write this bad ending out.
Dude, what I'm saying is that Sakura does not eat Gil until much later in the route.  Superhero end happens fairly shortly after Saber is eaten, way, way before Gil gets eaten.  And once Gil gets eaten by Sakura he won't come back.  There's even a line saying that if she does not eat him and convert him to magical energy right away, he'll just break free and kill her, that he can't be corrupted.

The point is, that at the time of Mind of Steel, Gil is still very much alive and just hanging out.  So assuming Kotomine allows Shirou to pull a UBW!Shinji and team up with Gil, guy is definitely available.  His being willing is another question entirely, but hey, fanfiction.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
Nephirin said:
Azure said:
Rising Dragon said:
I think you misread his statement.  He said Assassin teamed up with MoS!Shirou.  You're right about Zouken though.
Ah, sorry about that, it was my mistake.


Nephirin said:
Azure said:
I honestly doubt that a simple fire would take down Zouken and a Servant, even if it's Assassin; and isn't Gil basically dead by this point in the story. I mean you probably could justify it, but him coming back would not be something I would bother to really do. Personally, if I had to really do this scenario, I would find some way to justify Shirou getting black Saber back after the Shadow faded away and then have this tragedy play to its grim conclusion.
Gil isn't dead until quite a bit later in Heaven's Feel.  At this point it would be False Assassin, Caster, Lancer, and Saber dead.
Well Sakura had already ate him by then, right? Gil probably wasn't completely devoured by then (referring to the quote about why there isn't a black Gil in HF), so you could justify him coming back easily. But personally I would have made the call for him not returning if I had to write this bad ending out.
Dude, what I'm saying is that Sakura does not eat Gil until much later in the route.  Superhero end happens fairly shortly after Saber is eaten, way, way before Gil gets eaten.  And once Gil gets eaten by Sakura he won't come back.  There's even a line saying that if she does not eat him and convert him to magical energy right away, he'll just break free and kill her, that he can't be corrupted.

The point is, that at the time of Mind of Steel, Gil is still very much alive and just hanging out.  So assuming Kotomine allows Shirou to pull a UBW!Shinji and team up with Gil, guy is definitely available.  His being willing is another question entirely, but hey, fanfiction.
You are right, I had to check it but yeah Gil dies after Bad End 30, I was confusing the order with Bad End 35 where Shirou tries to kill Sakura himself. I guess this is why I shouldn't argue from memory. Well mea culpa.
 

raedric

Well-Known Member
I dunno I've just had a random idea sitting in the back of my mind, and I really don't think I've seen it done. I was picturing Shirou being a Homonculus of the Einzbern family (or being the child of one, maybe even Kiritsugu/Irisviel). This would make him a potential grail candidate. Childhood goes much the same, being caught in the fire and saved. With his particular distortion, I am envisioning something along the lines of Shirou's reality marble being the throne of heroes itself. His Origin being Holy Grail was kind of where I got to from that. My only real issue I keep running across is what kind of magecraft this would lead to? I can't imagine he'd ever really have the prana to actually deploy the marble without tapping into external sources. I was thinking something along the lines of him gaining heroes abilities so long as he held their phantasms, structural grasp that lets him know everything about the heroes and their history, etc. I don't have much in the way of cohesion of what I want and was just looking for somebody to rip this idea a new one or help think of things.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
What? Like seriously, this feels a bit too random, like if Einzberns made a homunculus that had ended with same soul that Shirou has (by coincidence), but the thing is that there is little chance that this homunculus would suffer from the same events that made Shirou get his sword origin and UBW (it's not like Kerry would bring this kid to him to the fourth war, or that this kid would get caught in the fire or get saved by Avalon, and even then he might not develop in the same way as the original Shirou did). Plus why would the Origin of this Hom!Shirou be the Holy Grail and why would his reality marble be the throne of heroes? That makes no sense. I could guess wishcraft leading to something like Miracles, but even that probably wouldn't lead to Shirou having the throne inside him.

It just sounds like a cute way to give Shirou some cool powers (which is fine), but what you should be focusing on what it would mean for Shirou to be raised by the Einzberns. I mean would he like being with his fellow human robots who only dream of working to obtain the holy grail on some vague orders of his masters while he dreams of being a hero or something. Would Illya like him or just think of Shirou as the reason her family died? If Shirou is in Germany, how does thing in Fuyuki change? Would this mean that Kerry survives past the Grail's curse? It's stuff like this that would be more important to consider.
 

raedric

Well-Known Member
Well the reasoning for me went as such: Shirou's origin is sword, because of Avalon being inside of him. Because his origin is sword, his lack of self and his way of seeing the world causes him to develop Unlimited Blade Works. So as a Homonculus (again, not really sure how I'd even justify one BEING there) I was thinking his origin may be related to the grail, as he'd be a potential vessel. So taking that line of logic: His origin is Holy Grail, he still lacks a sense of self, and he really wants to be a hero. I agree it's a bit weak to assume he'd be exactly the same if he were a homonculi that went through the same things, but I'm going off the novels where he described surviving the fire as him discarding everything, and then being saved. That's where my mind was drawing the parallel between the throne of heroes as a marble instead of UBW. Since the Throne of Heroes is removed from time itself, it would technically fit timeline-wise, and I was planning on it having more far-reaching consequences then a simple power-up. (Though if I'm being honest, totally enjoy thinking about what kind of powers it would lend itself to)

I dunno, it's just a thought that got stuck in my head.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
Still, I am going like wut? I feel that you are over-complicating things. Like seriously, there are easier ways to justify Shirou developing this hero-copying power than making him a holy grail and then saying he became the basis for the throne of heroes. Like for example, just say something like after the Fire he focused on imitating the action that made Kerry so happy but didn't really get the ideal, so he became some sort of FF Mimic. He lived by imitating others trying to become find what made them happy and trying to help others like Kerry did without really getting it (even more robotic than normal, think of Medaka from the series with her name). His power would end up being a spell that allows him to imitate the actions of others (like a FF Mimic), but wouldn't give him the stuff other people has so he can't just imitate how Rin throws her jewels since he doesn't have one, but other stuff is fair game (as long as he is careful with his body and not breaking it).

That is kinda rough, but that's how I would go at it. The theme of the story could be something like Shirou slowly growing to stop doing stuff because other people do it/ask him to do it, and starting to do stuff because he wants even if he still copies others or at least something similar. Still would need more work, but I think an explanation like this is probably less complicated than what you want to suggest.
 

LazyLurker

Well-Known Member
chronodekar said:
I didn't realize he wrote that. Is there more? I wanna read more!

-chronodekar
Azure said:
Still, I am going like wut? I feel that you are over-complicating things. Like seriously, there are easier ways to justify Shirou developing this hero-copying power than making him a holy grail and then saying he became the basis for the throne of heroes. Like for example, just say something like after the Fire he focused on imitating the action that made Kerry so happy but didn't really get the ideal, so he became some sort of FF Mimic. He lived by imitating others trying to become find what made them happy and trying to help others like Kerry did without really getting it (even more robotic than normal, think of Medaka from the series with her name). His power would end up being a spell that allows him to imitate the actions of others (like a FF Mimic), but wouldn't give him the stuff other people has so he can't just imitate how Rin throws her jewels since he doesn't have one, but other stuff is fair game (as long as he is careful with his body and not breaking it).

That is kinda rough, but that's how I would go at it. The theme of the story could be something like Shirou slowly growing to stop doing stuff because other people do it/ask him to do it, and starting to do stuff  because he wants even if he still copies others or at least something similar. Still would need more work, but I think an explanation like this is probably less complicated than what you want to suggest.
There's this story.
https://www.fanfiction.net/s/8407224/1/What-it-takes-to-win
 

bissek

Well-Known Member
New idea:

The selection of a catalyst not only determines what Servant is summoned, it also determines their abilities, based on how the catalyst is connected to their legend.

The ancient snakeskin is connected with the legend of Gilgamesh, unfortunately, it is connected as a part of the Golden King's greatest failure. Snakes gained the ability to shed their skin when a snake got into his pack and consumed the herb he needed for his quest for immortality. Thus, it is a symbol of the King of Heroes' inability to securely pack stuff.

As such, Gilgamesh has no control over the Gate of Babylon. Yes, he has just about everything in there, but he can't reliably find anything. If he tries to remove a single object, it will almost certainly not be what he's looking for. The only surefire way to get what he wants out is through the blade-spam method, purely because if he dumps everything out, the item he wants will show up sooner or later, assuming he sees it in the rain of weapons, baubles, ancient Sumerian cookware and other miscellaneous junk.

I'm sure other people can think of artifacts that reflect negatively on the hero being summoned, and how it might amusingly impact the summoning.
 
bissek said:
New idea:

The selection of a catalyst not only determines what Servant is summoned, it also determines their abilities, based on how the catalyst is connected to their legend.

The ancient snakeskin is connected with the legend of Gilgamesh, unfortunately, it is connected as a part of the Golden King's greatest failure. Snakes gained the ability to shed their skin when a snake got into his pack and consumed the herb he needed for his quest for immortality. Thus, it is a symbol of the King of Heroes' inability to securely pack stuff.

As such, Gilgamesh has no control over the Gate of Babylon. Yes, he has just about everything in there, but he can't reliably find anything. If he tries to remove a single object, it will almost certainly not be what he's looking for. The only surefire way to get what he wants out is through the blade-spam method, purely because if he dumps everything out, the item he wants will show up sooner or later, assuming he sees it in the rain of weapons, baubles, ancient Sumerian cookware and other miscellaneous junk.

I'm sure other people can think of artifacts that reflect negatively on the hero being summoned, and how it might amusingly impact the summoning.
Wouldn't the same thing apply to Avalon? Given both Saber and Mordred lost the damn thing?
 

bissek

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
bissek said:
New idea:

The selection of a catalyst not only determines what Servant is summoned, it also determines their abilities, based on how the catalyst is connected to their legend.

The ancient snakeskin is connected with the legend of Gilgamesh, unfortunately, it is connected as a part of the Golden King's greatest failure. Snakes gained the ability to shed their skin when a snake got into his pack and consumed the herb he needed for his quest for immortality. Thus, it is a symbol of the King of Heroes' inability to securely pack stuff.

As such, Gilgamesh has no control over the Gate of Babylon. Yes, he has just about everything in there, but he can't reliably find anything. If he tries to remove a single object, it will almost certainly not be what he's looking for. The only surefire way to get what he wants out is through the blade-spam method, purely because if he dumps everything out, the item he wants will show up sooner or later, assuming he sees it in the rain of weapons, baubles, ancient Sumerian cookware and other miscellaneous junk.

I'm sure other people can think of artifacts that reflect negatively on the hero being summoned, and how it might amusingly impact the summoning.
Wouldn't the same thing apply to Avalon? Given both Saber and Mordred lost the damn thing?
Excalibur's sheath wasn't lost, it was stolen and then tossed in a lake. With Saber it might instead be something connected to a crime Arthur committed in the original legend - upon learning that a child born on May Day would be the downfall of his kingdom, Arthur had them all gathered up and placed on a ship which he arranged to sink. There was only one survivor - Mordred. A Saber summoned from a fragment of that ship might be willing to commit atrocities in order to remove perceived threats to her position.

Of course, that wouldn't be nearly as funny as a Gilgamesh who can't find anything in the Gate of Babylon.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
I feel like it's a better explanation for the "King of Carelessness" -- the slang Nasu term for the way Gil's own pride gets in his way of accomplishing his goals.
 
bissek said:
MastaofBitches said:
bissek said:
New idea:

The selection of a catalyst not only determines what Servant is summoned, it also determines their abilities, based on how the catalyst is connected to their legend.

The ancient snakeskin is connected with the legend of Gilgamesh, unfortunately, it is connected as a part of the Golden King's greatest failure. Snakes gained the ability to shed their skin when a snake got into his pack and consumed the herb he needed for his quest for immortality. Thus, it is a symbol of the King of Heroes' inability to securely pack stuff.

As such, Gilgamesh has no control over the Gate of Babylon. Yes, he has just about everything in there, but he can't reliably find anything. If he tries to remove a single object, it will almost certainly not be what he's looking for. The only surefire way to get what he wants out is through the blade-spam method, purely because if he dumps everything out, the item he wants will show up sooner or later, assuming he sees it in the rain of weapons, baubles, ancient Sumerian cookware and other miscellaneous junk.

I'm sure other people can think of artifacts that reflect negatively on the hero being summoned, and how it might amusingly impact the summoning.
Wouldn't the same thing apply to Avalon? Given both Saber and Mordred lost the damn thing?
Excalibur's sheath wasn't lost, it was stolen and then tossed in a lake. With Saber it might instead be something connected to a crime Arthur committed in the original legend - upon learning that a child born on May Day would be the downfall of his kingdom, Arthur had them all gathered up and placed on a ship which he arranged to sink. There was only one survivor - Mordred. A Saber summoned from a fragment of that ship might be willing to commit atrocities in order to remove perceived threats to her position.

Of course, that wouldn't be nearly as funny as a Gilgamesh who can't find anything in the Gate of Babylon.
Yandere!Saber?
 

TmDagger

Well-Known Member
MastaofBitches said:
bissek said:
MastaofBitches said:
bissek said:
New idea:

The selection of a catalyst not only determines what Servant is summoned, it also determines their abilities, based on how the catalyst is connected to their legend.

The ancient snakeskin is connected with the legend of Gilgamesh, unfortunately, it is connected as a part of the Golden King's greatest failure. Snakes gained the ability to shed their skin when a snake got into his pack and consumed the herb he needed for his quest for immortality. Thus, it is a symbol of the King of Heroes' inability to securely pack stuff.

As such, Gilgamesh has no control over the Gate of Babylon. Yes, he has just about everything in there, but he can't reliably find anything. If he tries to remove a single object, it will almost certainly not be what he's looking for. The only surefire way to get what he wants out is through the blade-spam method, purely because if he dumps everything out, the item he wants will show up sooner or later, assuming he sees it in the rain of weapons, baubles, ancient Sumerian cookware and other miscellaneous junk.

I'm sure other people can think of artifacts that reflect negatively on the hero being summoned, and how it might amusingly impact the summoning.
Wouldn't the same thing apply to Avalon? Given both Saber and Mordred lost the damn thing?
Excalibur's sheath wasn't lost, it was stolen and then tossed in a lake. With Saber it might instead be something connected to a crime Arthur committed in the original legend - upon learning that a child born on May Day would be the downfall of his kingdom, Arthur had them all gathered up and placed on a ship which he arranged to sink. There was only one survivor - Mordred. A Saber summoned from a fragment of that ship might be willing to commit atrocities in order to remove perceived threats to her position.

Of course, that wouldn't be nearly as funny as a Gilgamesh who can't find anything in the Gate of Babylon.
Yandere!Saber?
Saber!Alter
 
TmDagger said:
MastaofBitches said:
bissek said:
MastaofBitches said:
bissek said:
New idea:

The selection of a catalyst not only determines what Servant is summoned, it also determines their abilities, based on how the catalyst is connected to their legend.

The ancient snakeskin is connected with the legend of Gilgamesh, unfortunately, it is connected as a part of the Golden King's greatest failure. Snakes gained the ability to shed their skin when a snake got into his pack and consumed the herb he needed for his quest for immortality. Thus, it is a symbol of the King of Heroes' inability to securely pack stuff.

As such, Gilgamesh has no control over the Gate of Babylon. Yes, he has just about everything in there, but he can't reliably find anything. If he tries to remove a single object, it will almost certainly not be what he's looking for. The only surefire way to get what he wants out is through the blade-spam method, purely because if he dumps everything out, the item he wants will show up sooner or later, assuming he sees it in the rain of weapons, baubles, ancient Sumerian cookware and other miscellaneous junk.

I'm sure other people can think of artifacts that reflect negatively on the hero being summoned, and how it might amusingly impact the summoning.
Wouldn't the same thing apply to Avalon? Given both Saber and Mordred lost the damn thing?
Excalibur's sheath wasn't lost, it was stolen and then tossed in a lake. With Saber it might instead be something connected to a crime Arthur committed in the original legend - upon learning that a child born on May Day would be the downfall of his kingdom, Arthur had them all gathered up and placed on a ship which he arranged to sink. There was only one survivor - Mordred. A Saber summoned from a fragment of that ship might be willing to commit atrocities in order to remove perceived threats to her position.

Of course, that wouldn't be nearly as funny as a Gilgamesh who can't find anything in the Gate of Babylon.
Yandere!Saber?
Saber!Alter
Summoned by... Waver, in the Fourth HGW.

I wonder who the others would summon? If Waver summons first, Kiritsugu could get Mordred, or perhaps 'his' mother. If Kiritsugu summons first, that ship fragment is rather deeply connected to Mordred's legend - perhaps 'he' would manifest with a different Noble Phantasm (Mordred wouldn't get high Luck from that, since Nasu-Luck is all about defying Destiny, not following it), or better Endurance.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
When you are directly responding to the last post, you don't need to quote them, let alone an unabridged nested quote of the last six posts.

It strikes me as disrespectful of other peoples' time when you just click the quote button and make everyone else scroll past the exact same thing they just read, again, because you were too thoughtless (lazy?) to spend four seconds editing your post.
 
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