Nasuverse FSN Question Thread

[Kai-]

Seeing as general questions occasionally popup as either their own threads or within a thread about something, I thought I'd make this to make it easier.

I'll start:

Could a magic user with a sufficiently powerful Noble Phantasm qualify for Archer, in addition to qualifying for Caster?

I'd lean towards yes, simply because in everything I've seen Archer's have only been stated to need ranged attacking ability & powerful NP(s), without regard to whether it is magically based or not. And we kind of have canon precedent in EMIYA.

 

[Cherry_lover]

A magic user who fits the criterion for the Archer class could indeed be summoned as an Archer (but, having a powerful NP is almost certainly not the criterion for being summoned into the Archer class...). Archer proves that, since his skills come entirely from his magic.

 

[Inaba]

It's possible, although on an unrelated note I think it's been mentioned that EMIYA himself doesn't actually qualify as a Caster servant.

 

[Amodelsino]

There is no stated canon requirement for Caster beyond using magecraft or magic (casting stuff), and he's a magus that can materialise a fucking Reality Marble.

There is no reason (given what we know) that he wouldn't qualify. The class skills would be useless to him sure, but he could still be summoned as one.

The requirement for the Archer class being possessing powerful/varied NPs is proven false by Archer himself. Archer has no NPs, as he creates them on the spot.

 

[sworded]

Question: Just what information is given to the Servants when they are summoned? Obviously they're given language skills to communicate with their Masters but what else besides that?

 

[Inaba]

Huh, that is interesting. Is it a case of any one who has the least amount of magical skill can be summoned as Caster? Because if so, can FSN!Lancer be summoned as a Caster?

 

[nick012000]

There is no stated canon requirement for Caster beyond using magecraft or magic (casting stuff), and he's a magus that can materialise a fucking Reality Marble.

There is no reason (given what we know) that he wouldn't qualify. The class skills would be useless to him sure, but he could still be summoned as one.

The requirement for the Archer class being possessing powerful/varied NPs is proven false by Archer himself. Archer has no NPs, as he creates them on the spot.

Archer's Noble Phantasm is UBW itself. He might or might not also have Avalon. Also, the class skills of the Caster class would be of use to Archer; Item Creation would improve his Reinforcement (and, possibly, Projection) abilities, and Territory Creation would let him set up what amounts to a permanent UBW in his home base.

 

[grant]

1. On whether or not a magic user could qualify as Archer: Only if they were sufficiently famous with a bow or (in EMIYA's case) they devoted their entire life, style of fighting and being to following the basic steps of archery. In other words Rin probably couldn't. Also note that EMIYA only became a Servant because he chose to become a Counter Guardian. He didn't become a Heroic Spirit the way most of the others did.

2. It appears to be the same with Caster. They have to have obtained sufficient fame with magic while alive. That's why Medea got summoned for the role, she was famous for her magic. EMIYA on the other hand didn't gain recognition for his magical abilities and is more suited to the role of Archer.

3. Not enough data. They clearly know the language and probably some of the norms but Fate/Zero Rider needed to study during the war to learn about things like America, geography and politics. He also saw nothing wrong with stealing a map from a library.

4. Cu Culhainn Lancer probably couldn't take the role of Caster. He was known mostly for his skill with the spear and his berserker fury.

5. Yes his Noble Phantasm (of sorts) is listed as Unlimited Blade Works. However he doesn't have Avalon. It isn't listed in his profile when you complete every route and if Elvarein is correct then Nasu stated that EMIYA lost the ability to recreate it after his fight with Kotomine (in reality that was nerfing EMIYA a little because in many ways he's broken but that's still the Word of God).

 

[Amodelsino]

It's not what they were famous for that allows them to be summoned into a class. Otherwise EMIYA couldn't be summoned at all. Saying it's because he devoted his life to archery is a copout that doesn't support the idea at all. His whole life was Unlimited Blade Works, not lots and lots of archery.

His archery skill comes from natural talent. He worked on his magic far more than he ever did at shooting a bow.

Archer's NP is not UBW. He doesn't have an NP, as he's not a hero. He can't have one by definition. He even remarks himself when he uses it that if he were an actual hero, it would probably be his Noble Phantasm.

 

[Kai-]

It's not what they were famous for that allows them to be summoned into a class. Otherwise EMIYA couldn't be summoned at all. Saying it's because he devoted his life to archery is a copout that doesn't support the idea at all. His whole life was Unlimited Blade Works, not lots and lots of archery.

His archery skill comes from natural talent. He worked on his magic far more than he ever did at shooting a bow.

Archer's NP is not UBW. He doesn't have an NP, as he's not a hero. He can't have one by definition. He even remarks himself when he uses it that if he were an actual hero, it would probably be his Noble Phantasm.

That is really just semantics though.

Yes, a CG can't have a NP because fame/hero etc, but if he was able to have a NP it would be UBW.

So UBW is a technique that is a NP in everything bar name. And it makes discussion much much easier if UBW is referred to as his NP.

Additionally, in the ingame character sheet, UBW is listed under Noble Phantasm, rather than Skills. So technically, you wouldn't even be wrong in calling it his NP.

 

[Amodelsino]

But it technically isn't, and that's all that matters in a discussion about the requirements to be summoned into a class.

Archer doesn't have any Noble Phantasm, and therefore Noble Phantasms are not part of the requirement for the Archer class.

 

[grant]

1 Part 1. On being famous and getting summoned. I misspoke there. To be a Heroic Spirit (or even just a famous spirit like Medea) they have to have done great things that they were honored for and they have to be able to fit the class. Try as you may there simply is no way that Hercules can be a Caster. Based on what the game mentions about the Einzberns it seems possible for the Master to manipulate what the Servant will be summoned as if that Servant can fit that class.

1 Part 2. EMIYA is a bit of an exception because he's a Counter Guardian and his existence was that of an Archer (look at Ayako's conversation with Shirou about the basics of archery). There is some possibility that he could be a Caster but that doesn't seem to be as close to his nature as Archer is.

2 Part 1. On whether EMIYA has a Noble Phantasm. EMIYA's Noble Phantasm is clearly listed as 'Unlimited Blade Works' in the section for Noble Phantasms. That is the game itself outright listing it as a Noble Phantasm.

2 Part 2. On Noble Phantasms and requirements. The Noble Phantasms themselves are more just a list of what special move, ability or spell the Servant in question had while living. Medusa had her association with Pegasus so she could summon it to battle. Cuchulain had his famous technique Gae Bolg. It can also be something that represents the Servants personality like Medea's Rule Breaker which apparently "materializes the divinity of the witch of betrayal". It isn't exactly a requirement to be a Heroic Spirit or a Servant as far as the game suggests so much as the fact that if this individual performed great enough deeds to be remembered they also had some great ability or power that they used to perform those deeds. To put it another way, even if the Servant didn't have a technique that they were known for or a power that they exclusively used it could still be something about who they were.

 

[Kai-]

EMIYA happens to have skill in Archery, but it wasn't a focus of his life.

Archer (and caster, to some extent) are basically the only classes that EMIYA could qualify for.

Saber - Doesn't have the stats for
Lancer - Doesn't have the stats for
Rider - Doesn't ride
Berserker - He might have gone crazy at some point, but we don't know about it, and he'd be completely useless (as he would be unable to use UBW/projection)
Assassin - Just no
Caster - Maybe
Archer - Yes

At the time Rin summoned him Saber and Archer were the only unfilled classes, which meant he had be an Archer, even if he could have been a Caster.

-

Medusa had her association with Pegasus so she could summon it to battle.

Medusa's NP isn't the ability to summon her Pegasus, but Bellerophon which allows her to control (and enhance) divine beasts.

 

[Cherry_lover]

1 Part 1. On being famous and getting summoned. I misspoke there. To be a Heroic Spirit (or even just a famous spirit like Medea) they have to have done great things that they were honored for and they have to be able to fit the class. Try as you may there simply is no way that Hercules can be a Caster.

Yeah, but as long as they fit the class requirements (which we don't actually know, except for Berserker, Assassin and probably Rider), they can be summoned into that class. Most likely, actually, the requirements are to do with what they were able to do in life, hence why Berserker fits as an Archer despite not having a bow or a "powerful" NP, and why he fits as a Rider despite not having a mount.

Based on what the game mentions about the Einzberns it seems possible for the Master to manipulate what the Servant will be summoned as if that Servant can fit that class.

Only for the Berserker and Assassin classes (which, as Fate/Zero shows, are the only classes which the master can specifically choose to summon, as opposed to summoning the most fitting servant and then allocating them to a class). Other than that, it seems to be up to the Grail (although, I'm not sure what would have happened if someone else had had a catalyst for a Saber-class servant and had summoned them prior to Shirou summoning Saber...).

2 Part 1. On whether EMIYA has a Noble Phantasm. EMIYA's Noble Phantasm is clearly listed as 'Unlimited Blade Works' in the section for Noble Phantasms. That is the game itself outright listing it as a Noble Phantasm.

However, in the game itself, Archer specifically says that it's not his Noble Phantasm. It's listed under that category for convinience.

Anyway, the point is that being an Archer does not mean having a powerful Noble Phantasm. Even if you do class UBW as an NP, it's not actually that "powerful" (relative to e.g. Excalibur).

 

[Kai-]

1 Part 1. On being famous and getting summoned. I misspoke there. To be a Heroic Spirit (or even just a famous spirit like Medea) they have to have done great things that they were honored for and they have to be able to fit the class. Try as you may there simply is no way that Hercules can be a Caster.

Yeah, but as long as they fit the class requirements (which we don't actually know, except for Berserker, Assassin and probably Rider), they can be summoned into that class. Most likely, actually, the requirements are to do with what they were able to do in life, hence why Berserker fits as an Archer despite not having a bow or a "powerful" NP, and why he fits as a Rider despite not having a mount.

Based on what the game mentions about the Einzberns it seems possible for the Master to manipulate what the Servant will be summoned as if that Servant can fit that class.

Only for the Berserker and Assassin classes (which, as Fate/Zero shows, are the only classes which the master can specifically choose to summon, as opposed to summoning the most fitting servant and then allocating them to a class). Other than that, it seems to be up to the Grail (although, I'm not sure what would have happened if someone else had had a catalyst for a Saber-class servant and had summoned them prior to Shirou summoning Saber...).

2 Part 1. On whether EMIYA has a Noble Phantasm. EMIYA's Noble Phantasm is clearly listed as 'Unlimited Blade Works' in the section for Noble Phantasms. That is the game itself outright listing it as a Noble Phantasm.

However, in the game itself, Archer specifically says that it's not his Noble Phantasm. It's listed under that category for convinience.

Anyway, the point is that being an Archer does not mean having a powerful Noble Phantasm. Even if you do class UBW as an NP, it's not actually that "powerful" (relative to e.g. Excalibur).

If Rin had gotten a Saber instead of Archer, Shirou probably would have gotten EMIYA, which would have been a bad end.

The reason for that is Arturia most likely can't be an Archer and it is logical to assume that you can be a catalyst for yourself. Although if Arturia could be an Archer, he'd probably just get her (but I don't think she can be).

If a different class was open as the last spot, it'd probably just be a roll of the dice since Arturia and EMIYA are the only things he has catalysts for.

--

EDIT: What would happen if you tried to summon a Berserker, but a Berserker already had been summoned?

 

[Amodelsino]

You wouldn't get a Berserker.

Also, catalysts aren't necessarily one hero only.

 

[Cherry_lover]

If Rin had gotten a Saber instead of Archer, Shirou probably would have gotten EMIYA, which would have been a bad end.

The thing is, without the catalyst for Saber, Shirou would probably have not become a master at all, since he has no real connection to the Grail Wars. Also, if Shirou had summoned Archer, Archer would almost certainly not be able to kill him whilst he still possessed command spells (Caster had to get her master to use up all three command spells before she could).

The reason for that is Arturia most likely can't be an Archer and it is logical to assume that you can be a catalyst for yourself.

Possibly. However, Counter Guardians are not normally summonable, and I'm not sure that Shirou's body is enough of a catalyst to overcome that.

Although if Arturia could be an Archer, he'd probably just get her (but I don't think she can be).

Definitely, if it was possible (which, like you say, it probably isn't). I do wonder, though, if the Grail somehow "fiddles" things (by pre-emptively allocating servants to classes) to ensure that every master can summon their servant, since there is no situation in either war where a master was unable to get the servant their catalyst was intended to summon due to there being no free "slots" for them).

If a different class was open as the last spot, it'd probably just be a roll of the dice since Arturia and EMIYA are the only things he has catalysts for.

Or, alternately, the Grail somehow "invents" a new class to put them in, or else just shoe-horns them into whatever class is left.

For instance, Assassin should really be in the Saber class, since his method of fighting fits that class much more than it does the class "Assassin" (which he's not), and I doubt Caster changed the incantation in order to specifically summon an Assassin (which is what you are supposed to do). However, putting him as a Saber would have left Shirou with only Assassin to choose, and he has no catalyst for an Assassin, no connection to them (since they're all Lawful Evil, and fight in a way that goes against his fundamental principles) and would not use the special ritual needed to obtain one. So, most likely, the Grail "cheated", and summoned Kojiro (or, rather, the Wraith that was 'impersonating' Kojiro) into that class, since Caster was already breaking the rules anyway (similarly, when the Einsberns cheated in the third war, they got an entirely new class, which replaced the Berserker class).

 

[Amodelsino]

Alternatively, 'Kojiro' was Assassin because he's a wraith, Assassin servants are wraiths, and that is the very loophole that allowed Caster to bullshit the system.

 

[Cherry_lover]

Alternatively, 'Kojiro' was Assassin because he's a wraith, Assassin servants are wraiths, and that is the very loophole that allowed Caster to bullshit the system.

Except that that's not the defintion of the class. It's not a class for wraiths, it's a class for Assassins. It's never made clear if the line of Hassans are the only possible members of that class by definition or because they're the only Assassins who the founders could make summonable, but I very much doubt that being a wraith is the only class requirement.

 

[Avider]

For the summoning:

Or the Grail could just ignore the catalyst and summon a Servant that had compatibility with the Master.

If Saber was already taken, and say Shirou somehow did manage to become a Master and did the summoning, and say the only class left was Archer and say Arturia can't be an Archer:

Shirou wouldn't get Arturia even with Avalon in his body, but some other Servant that'll match his personality. In effect, the catalyst doesn't matter.

 

[ttestagr]

For the summoning:

Or the Grail could just ignore the catalyst and summon a Servant that had compatibility with the Master.

If Saber was already taken, and say Shirou somehow did manage to become a Master and did the summoning, and say the only class left was Archer and say Arturia can't be an Archer:

Shirou wouldn't get Arturia even with Avalon in his body, but some other Servant that'll match his personality. In effect, the catalyst doesn't matter.

Actually, Rin summoning Arturia is the type of coincidence that can lead to the rules being broken hilariously. We've had two Sabers in the same war before, completely against the rules. Now, if Rin somehow manages to summon Arturia, Shirou who has a major catalyst and is amazingly compatible with her personally might just get her as well. Especially since she's such a broken spirit who has her living ghost and a heroic spirit (end of Fate route) both existing throughout time to possibly summon.

The joys of having a cosmology outside of space-time, eh?

 

[Cherry_lover]

Actually, Rin summoning Arturia is the type of coincidence that can lead to the rules being broken hilariously.? We've had two Sabers in the same war before, completely against the rules.

Erm, no. That war had one Saber that was split into two different facets of it's personality. It only took up one 'slot' and the dual masters performed their summoning ceremony together (and were counted as one master for the purpose of the war).

Now, if Rin somehow manages to summon Arturia, Shirou who has a major catalyst and is amazingly compatible with her personally might just get her as well.á Especially since she's such a broken spirit who has her living ghost and a heroic spirit (end of Fate route) both existing throughout time to possibly summon.

Well, this is slightly plausible, I suppose, but only really if Arturia could fit into two classes rather than one.

 

[Kibbles]

Now, if Rin somehow manages to summon Arturia, Shirou who has a major catalyst and is amazingly compatible with her personally might just get her as well.á Especially since she's such a broken spirit who has her living ghost and a heroic spirit (end of Fate route) both existing throughout time to possibly summon.

Well, this is slightly plausible, I suppose, but only really if Arturia could fit into two classes rather than one.

By her nature as the image of the archetypal medieval knight/king (or close to it), she might pass off as Rider (even as Saber she has riding). Also, IIRC, the mythical Arthur had a named spear, so Lancer is a possibility (also, a named knife, but I doubt that's useful).

Of course, the Sword of Peace/Sword of War are most strongly associated with the legend. I mean, who's Arthur without Clarent and Excalibur? But ... whatever. It's our mythology to rape, right?

 

[Elf]

The only three classes that NEED to be summoned in the Grail War are the Knight Classes: Saber, Archer and Lancer.

After those Three are summoned the others in the air. In fact, you could have multiples of classes in a Grail War after those initial three are put in.

 

[S J C]

Never mind.