Well, I have to point out that pain IS a natural sense, not something that interferes with your senses. That said, I don't think pain being mandatory would work out really well. Maybe something like there being a Deep Immersion sliding bar in the game settings, and the further you slide the more life-like it gets, pain included, and the game locks some options according to your Deep Immersion setting? So you could only access Magecraft and other features(something like freestyle swordfighting, for example) in higher levels of Deep Immersion. Everyone can play, but the hardcore can play better, which is just as well for the non-competitive players because really, what do they care?
Nasuverse FSN + SAO: j-jam it in!
- Thread starter daniel_gudman
- Start date
Actually, Vathara pointed out something interesting in her latest SAO cross (Monstrous Compendium Online). There have been several studies (and a mildly tricky home experiment, too) where, by causing someone to sympathize with the actions of a white glove that mimicked the actions of the subject's real hand hidden under the table, they produced phantom sensations - including pain. I.e. if you pricked the glove with a needle, you'd "feel" it.
The SAO survivors are trapped in their game 24/7, and even normal VR players would be in that sort of sympathetic full-sensory environment for much longer than those trial studies. Maybe it wouldn't be the same, but the question wouldn't be one of the physical technology but of psychology, which is a much messier field even in the future that SAO takes place in. Kayaba could easily say something like "for the safety of the participants, mild pain has been made mandatory to avoid crippling pain in select individuals" and nobody could call him on it.
The SAO survivors are trapped in their game 24/7, and even normal VR players would be in that sort of sympathetic full-sensory environment for much longer than those trial studies. Maybe it wouldn't be the same, but the question wouldn't be one of the physical technology but of psychology, which is a much messier field even in the future that SAO takes place in. Kayaba could easily say something like "for the safety of the participants, mild pain has been made mandatory to avoid crippling pain in select individuals" and nobody could call him on it.
Huh? Pain is a natural sense, if you're feeling it because you're actually hurt. Just like how vision is a natural sense, if there's actually light shining on your retinas. VRMMO vision and pain are both unnatural.
An optional immersion slider could work better, but aside from magecraft, what features could you justify as dependent on it without seeming like an arbitrary penalty for people who want pain turned off?
An optional immersion slider could work better, but aside from magecraft, what features could you justify as dependent on it without seeming like an arbitrary penalty for people who want pain turned off?
Easiest feature to block off: Connect the "senses" feature with the "pain" feature.
At launch, SAO had much less realistic and immersive taste/smell/touch compared to what Kayaba has refined over time. Link "pain" into that category of improved senses with the explanation that removing just pain causes the remaining senses to feel unnatural/causes adverse reactions. And explain that due to how the system is set up it requires a full game reboot to switch between the basic and enhanced sense packages; that cuts down on people trying to get the pluses without the minuses.
At launch, SAO had much less realistic and immersive taste/smell/touch compared to what Kayaba has refined over time. Link "pain" into that category of improved senses with the explanation that removing just pain causes the remaining senses to feel unnatural/causes adverse reactions. And explain that due to how the system is set up it requires a full game reboot to switch between the basic and enhanced sense packages; that cuts down on people trying to get the pluses without the minuses.
For those who might have trouble finding her page (or are lazy): Vathara on Archive of Our Own.
I think the best bet would be a two stage sort of thing.
In the base game you have magecraft-lite, which doesn't have any/much pain and is also vastly inferior to the real thing. Then have a hack or custom command which turns the pain up to full throttle and also unlocks proper circuit activation. If it feels like it's unintended, then the fact that it's also way harsher then a game is supposed to be is forgivable.
Have apologies that this unreleased feature was discovered, and that they are working to have a pain-free version available when possible (i.e. never). People will complain, but it will be complaining that the devs can't solve a problem with the game.
In the base game you have magecraft-lite, which doesn't have any/much pain and is also vastly inferior to the real thing. Then have a hack or custom command which turns the pain up to full throttle and also unlocks proper circuit activation. If it feels like it's unintended, then the fact that it's also way harsher then a game is supposed to be is forgivable.
Have apologies that this unreleased feature was discovered, and that they are working to have a pain-free version available when possible (i.e. never). People will complain, but it will be complaining that the devs can't solve a problem with the game.
Unrelated to the current discussion but...
Kuradeel's sword.
Without reinforcement, it's just a mercury and scrap-iron, and kind of mediocre.
When reinforced with [Boogeyman], it becomes the Edgelord's Edge Sword of +1 Edge, All the Edge you can handle, even the handle.
But how would it respond to a) Kuradeel's element changing, if that was still in the plans, and b) Other rare/conceptual elements? or even c) Standard elements?
The secret to a Lightsaber turns out to be a Metal Slime Essence Blank? By reinforcing the Blank with [Sword], it becomes the swordiest sword that ever sworded?
Kuradeel's sword.
Without reinforcement, it's just a mercury and scrap-iron, and kind of mediocre.
When reinforced with [Boogeyman], it becomes the Edgelord's Edge Sword of +1 Edge, All the Edge you can handle, even the handle.
But how would it respond to a) Kuradeel's element changing, if that was still in the plans, and b) Other rare/conceptual elements? or even c) Standard elements?
The secret to a Lightsaber turns out to be a Metal Slime Essence Blank? By reinforcing the Blank with [Sword], it becomes the swordiest sword that ever sworded?
If Kuradeel lost his element The Metal Slime Sword wouldn't be able to transform into a jet black chainsaw with blood red skulls curved into the side and bat wings-shaped crossguard but because of a lack of a niche element reinforcement is much more effective. The Metal Slime Sword, which I will now refer to as Harbinger of Nightmares, would lose its unique morphing properties but it could be made sharper and more durable than any other sword. To put it simply 'Boring, but Practical' Kuradeel would hate it. I don't think if the Harbinger of Nightmares was to be used with other elements the end results would be lightsabers expect Rosalia. They'd be more like the elemental swords in Breath of the Wild. As for running sword-tinged prana through it might cause blades to extend out from every part of the sword. That would be pretty useful for getting past peoples guards.
Shirou as final boss & mechanics
Two things.
Shirou as Boss 100:
If the FRO Survivors have come to the consensus that they will pursue magecraft without limitations when exiting the game/or have become the kind of people who have done malicious experimentation. Wouldn't Shirou be compelled to prevent harm to innocents and at least challenge all players to use magecraft for the benefit of mankind instead of pursuits of personal power?
Shirou SGs himself
Also since Shirou has the element and origin of sword. and his structural grasp allows for innate comprehension of swords, if he used SG on himself what would the result be? I like the idea of a short duration perpetual motion machine attribute, letting him pull off gates of babylon or a half materialized UBW to spam broken phantasms from for a few seconds. Although it's most likely he would forcibly go to stage 4 on his origin then paradox himself out of existence or something. or actually turn into a sword equip.
Two things.
Shirou as Boss 100:
If the FRO Survivors have come to the consensus that they will pursue magecraft without limitations when exiting the game/or have become the kind of people who have done malicious experimentation. Wouldn't Shirou be compelled to prevent harm to innocents and at least challenge all players to use magecraft for the benefit of mankind instead of pursuits of personal power?
Shirou SGs himself
Also since Shirou has the element and origin of sword. and his structural grasp allows for innate comprehension of swords, if he used SG on himself what would the result be? I like the idea of a short duration perpetual motion machine attribute, letting him pull off gates of babylon or a half materialized UBW to spam broken phantasms from for a few seconds. Although it's most likely he would forcibly go to stage 4 on his origin then paradox himself out of existence or something. or actually turn into a sword equip.
I don't know if it's ever been asked, but a question (for Daniel I guess?):
Is Shirou using a sword or swords he forged himself as his main weapon(s) at this point?
I don't recall it ever coming up in any of the chapters. It would be weird for him to be using vendor junk swords or something from Liz while making swords for everyone else, but on the other hand, it seems like forging a sword for himself would be a big step for him personality-wise and would have a chapter of its own if it had happened. It's also never been mentioned what Ilya is using, but I assume it's one of his also, but less plot-relevant than him doing some kind of self-evaluation to make his own weapons. Asuna as far as I can tell is still using the one Liz made for her...
Is Shirou using a sword or swords he forged himself as his main weapon(s) at this point?
I don't recall it ever coming up in any of the chapters. It would be weird for him to be using vendor junk swords or something from Liz while making swords for everyone else, but on the other hand, it seems like forging a sword for himself would be a big step for him personality-wise and would have a chapter of its own if it had happened. It's also never been mentioned what Ilya is using, but I assume it's one of his also, but less plot-relevant than him doing some kind of self-evaluation to make his own weapons. Asuna as far as I can tell is still using the one Liz made for her...
I always pictured Shirou removing his own rib and forging a sword out of it, Kerry style. He is basically the crystallized metaphysical concept of Sword itself, or, as Chronopie so aptly put it, "the swordiest sword that ever sworded", you can't get much better than that for a weapon. Plus, he'd be literally the bone of his sword.
I don't know if this is still the case but I recall Daniel saying that Shirou won't even think about forging himself a sword but he was also kicking around the idea of Shirou creating swords that can easily be traced. Although I couldn't for the life of me tell you where to find this other then deep into this forum.
Bad design aside Alter Emiya from FGO uses Orgin Bullets to make people explode into swords. Origin Blade would have the same effect one cut and boom a pile of blood and swords
Bad design aside Alter Emiya from FGO uses Orgin Bullets to make people explode into swords. Origin Blade would have the same effect one cut and boom a pile of blood and swords
Strictly speaking, Emiyalter's origin bullets are actually Unlimited Lost Works: Creation of Swords - the remnants of UBW left after he abandoned the identity it was built on. It may be less that the bullets are origin bullets, and more that he's enchanting them with his decaying reality marble as he fires them.
so hes imbuing the bullets with UBW, i can believe that it does show the subject ending up IN ubw if i recall correctly.
does this mean that shirou's bones can, even when seperated from his body, contain within them a similar amount of information as the unlimited repository of knowledge that a reality marble constitutes? if so can shirou draw the properties of weapons in UBW into a blade made from his bones? (enchant the bone-blade to mimic Gae Bolge because Gae Bolge exists within UBW)
second non UBW related question.
Silica's origin... its Beast. i assume this origin was made before we got to see any of the Beast-servants from grand order. but now that we know what it means to be considered a "beast" in the nasuverse. how does this affect her abilities? could she mimic the abilities of the beast-class characters somehow? and if so to what extent?
im assuming someone else already asked this question before and i just missed it. so if they did then please just tell me the general consensus.
does this mean that shirou's bones can, even when seperated from his body, contain within them a similar amount of information as the unlimited repository of knowledge that a reality marble constitutes? if so can shirou draw the properties of weapons in UBW into a blade made from his bones? (enchant the bone-blade to mimic Gae Bolge because Gae Bolge exists within UBW)
second non UBW related question.
Silica's origin... its Beast. i assume this origin was made before we got to see any of the Beast-servants from grand order. but now that we know what it means to be considered a "beast" in the nasuverse. how does this affect her abilities? could she mimic the abilities of the beast-class characters somehow? and if so to what extent?
im assuming someone else already asked this question before and i just missed it. so if they did then please just tell me the general consensus.
Silica's element is Beast we don't know her origin. As for you first question ...maybe. I mean does he have enough bones for a long spear, can healing magic regrow bones, can he pick and choose what weapon attribute to give the bone, is it just a cascade of random swords. We really don't know enough about that.
can we assume the "original" origin weapons to be made COMPLETELY from bone though? i Always assumed it to be a combination of bone and metal (i don't remember how many ribs Kiritsugu had removed but i doubt there was enough to make as many bullets as he's presumably used over his entire carreer)
but assuming that thining it down with a "worthy" material (platinum? Mercury, some platinum mercury alloy?) doesnt solve the problem. there is still another solution.
Ilya. she's presumably been taught at least SOMETHING by her family about their homonculus creation. if she can create an artificial human body with fully functioning organs from raw chemicals. then creating replacement bones should be relatively easy. then have shirou drink milk for a week or two (until his newly consumed calcium has replaced a sufficient percentage of the "artificial" bonecells) and rinse and repeat.
meaning that i 1 doubt that shirou has an insufficient suply of bone in his body. 2: if he runs out it won't take long to have ilya replace it.
*edit. this was a response to your "enough for a spear" question. an attempt at trying to find out how much material he could produce. i will return when i've googled data on Kiritsugu's origin bullets for an estimate.
but assuming that thining it down with a "worthy" material (platinum? Mercury, some platinum mercury alloy?) doesnt solve the problem. there is still another solution.
Ilya. she's presumably been taught at least SOMETHING by her family about their homonculus creation. if she can create an artificial human body with fully functioning organs from raw chemicals. then creating replacement bones should be relatively easy. then have shirou drink milk for a week or two (until his newly consumed calcium has replaced a sufficient percentage of the "artificial" bonecells) and rinse and repeat.
meaning that i 1 doubt that shirou has an insufficient suply of bone in his body. 2: if he runs out it won't take long to have ilya replace it.
*edit. this was a response to your "enough for a spear" question. an attempt at trying to find out how much material he could produce. i will return when i've googled data on Kiritsugu's origin bullets for an estimate.
i was going to return. but i got kind of F-ed up here.
long story short i found 3 datapoints from the NASU-wiki.
point 1:Calliber was chosen for doing greatest physical damage. meaning that its the largest contender compatible bullet (.45-70 Government) measurements on wikiped.
point 2: there were 66 bullets
point 3: kiritsugu had 4 ribs removed the 1th and 2nd on both sides. i found data for the length of both ribs on avarage on google and found thickness data only for ribs 3-9. ended up using 3rd rib as basis for estimation.
the 1th rib was on average 150mm long and the second roughly 200 from the data form some research file i found. but in the middle of my calculations my computer started to shutdown. then i started from scratch and rince and repeat. someone with a less broken PC, please finish my calculations please?
*edit*
i found one of my sources: http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2003/pdfs/196.pdf
now aparently the 3rd rib was aprox 10.3 mm thick
long story short i found 3 datapoints from the NASU-wiki.
point 1:Calliber was chosen for doing greatest physical damage. meaning that its the largest contender compatible bullet (.45-70 Government) measurements on wikiped.
point 2: there were 66 bullets
point 3: kiritsugu had 4 ribs removed the 1th and 2nd on both sides. i found data for the length of both ribs on avarage on google and found thickness data only for ribs 3-9. ended up using 3rd rib as basis for estimation.
the 1th rib was on average 150mm long and the second roughly 200 from the data form some research file i found. but in the middle of my calculations my computer started to shutdown. then i started from scratch and rince and repeat. someone with a less broken PC, please finish my calculations please?
*edit*
i found one of my sources: http://www.asbweb.org/conferences/2003/pdfs/196.pdf
now aparently the 3rd rib was aprox 10.3 mm thick
I always assumed the ground-up bones were added to melted metal (lead I guess?) before being poured into bullet molds, or maybe a bone fragment placed in each mold while it was cooling. Actually making the bullets out of bone seems unlikely, because they would be badly damaged by the explosion that actually launches the bullet out of the gun.
And to the richardsphere's comment about Shirou's bones containing the information of his reality marble (either part or all of the information), I really doubt that's the case. As I understand things, a reality marble, like any other magecraft, is a mental image brought to physical existence using prana. It's not something that's a part of Shirou's body, it's his mind. Any instances of swords inside his body are a result of projecting part of his reality marble from his mind into his body rather than onto the area outside his body. Making a sword out of one of his bones wouldn't give that sword the properties of Unlimited Blade Works. It would just make it more sword-like (if that idea weren't redundant already). Not to mention being inherently weaker than a purely metallic sword, due to having either chunks of less dense material inside the metal or the material being less dense overall if it's a powder mixed with the metal.
That's not to say he couldn't craft a sword with the properties of UBW I suppose... But that would still be a bounded field constructed relative to the sword, rather than to the world? I guess? It would certainly be a fancy piece of magecraft, one made entirely irrelevant by his ability to pull any sword out of UBW in the first place.
And to the richardsphere's comment about Shirou's bones containing the information of his reality marble (either part or all of the information), I really doubt that's the case. As I understand things, a reality marble, like any other magecraft, is a mental image brought to physical existence using prana. It's not something that's a part of Shirou's body, it's his mind. Any instances of swords inside his body are a result of projecting part of his reality marble from his mind into his body rather than onto the area outside his body. Making a sword out of one of his bones wouldn't give that sword the properties of Unlimited Blade Works. It would just make it more sword-like (if that idea weren't redundant already). Not to mention being inherently weaker than a purely metallic sword, due to having either chunks of less dense material inside the metal or the material being less dense overall if it's a powder mixed with the metal.
That's not to say he couldn't craft a sword with the properties of UBW I suppose... But that would still be a bounded field constructed relative to the sword, rather than to the world? I guess? It would certainly be a fancy piece of magecraft, one made entirely irrelevant by his ability to pull any sword out of UBW in the first place.
im back to finish my calculated estimate for the bone to metal ratio
but first, i apologise that i had to stretch this out. my PC started freaking out halfway through so i decided to just post what i had so that i didnt lose it.
i will continue based on the asumption that the 1th two ribs are roughly as thick as the 3rd. and that ribs are roughly cilindrical in shape. as are the contender bullets.
filling in the ribs would have a volume of roughly 58326 mm3
while the bullets have a collective volume of rougly 451985.82 mm3
58326/451985.82=0.12904387133
meaning that the one could the volume of a weapon made using the forging process used for kiritsugu's origin bullets can only ba 12.9% as large as the bones it was made from.
so getting back on the question of a spear made using the same processes. i found a site featuring an aproximation of the volume of the entire human skeleton [http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/975730-Volume-of-the-human-skeleton] aproximating it at around 7000cm3.
7000/100*12.9=903
using a macedonian xyston for the length [anywhere from 3.6 to 4.2 m in length] gives us a radius of 8.935 cm.
so yes. a human being does have a sufficient amount of bone in their body to make a full spear out of.
now that my curiosity is sated i want to point out that im shocked to find that the bullets are denser then the bone they are made from. meaning that material was likely lost in the process.
also i dont understand why you'd make a full spear. you'd just need a spearhead made from the alloy and put it on a sturdy stick.
and seeing as only 12.9% remains, there is a vast space for shirou and ilya to improve. remember they were made by natalia, who presumably had little experience at alchemy and the process of crafting weapons.
*edit i meant smaller, not denser.
but first, i apologise that i had to stretch this out. my PC started freaking out halfway through so i decided to just post what i had so that i didnt lose it.
i will continue based on the asumption that the 1th two ribs are roughly as thick as the 3rd. and that ribs are roughly cilindrical in shape. as are the contender bullets.
filling in the ribs would have a volume of roughly 58326 mm3
while the bullets have a collective volume of rougly 451985.82 mm3
58326/451985.82=0.12904387133
meaning that the one could the volume of a weapon made using the forging process used for kiritsugu's origin bullets can only ba 12.9% as large as the bones it was made from.
so getting back on the question of a spear made using the same processes. i found a site featuring an aproximation of the volume of the entire human skeleton [http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/975730-Volume-of-the-human-skeleton] aproximating it at around 7000cm3.
7000/100*12.9=903
using a macedonian xyston for the length [anywhere from 3.6 to 4.2 m in length] gives us a radius of 8.935 cm.
so yes. a human being does have a sufficient amount of bone in their body to make a full spear out of.
now that my curiosity is sated i want to point out that im shocked to find that the bullets are denser then the bone they are made from. meaning that material was likely lost in the process.
also i dont understand why you'd make a full spear. you'd just need a spearhead made from the alloy and put it on a sturdy stick.
and seeing as only 12.9% remains, there is a vast space for shirou and ilya to improve. remember they were made by natalia, who presumably had little experience at alchemy and the process of crafting weapons.
*edit i meant smaller, not denser.
Those are very good points, though in an universe where Conceptual Weapons exist, I don't think a sword being more sword-like than other swords would be merely redundant. However, that does raise the improbable though somewhat amusing possibility of Shirou using the bone for something completely different, like adding it to melted metal then making some kind of non-sword tool out of it, like a motorcycle or a Mystic Code that did any of the basic magecrafts that Shirou can't normally perform. It would still be a "Sword", due to having his origin, and thus he could trace it and project it.
*edit: If a homunculi was made with a Sword origin could Shirou trace it and project it?
*edit: If a homunculi was made with a Sword origin could Shirou trace it and project it?
a
homonculus, as in an artificial human with a soul? no. he wouldnt. he would be able to comprehend its makeup and reproduce that in UBW but his reserves would be insufficient to project it into the world.
the body he could probably reproduce, its the soul that he would fail with.
but you bring up a good point. having shirou make a non-sword thing sword compatible through bonedust... maybe he can finally get the Liz off his back about his refusal to make armor? or maybe a familiar of sorts, having an eye in the sky would seem beneficial to the archer. so that he can just keep an eye on the entire dungeon floor and know when someone somewhere is fighting a losing battle?
*edit*
i want to clarify that i believe he could create a homonculus through alchemy and whatever methods usually are used to give a homonculus a soul. i just want to assess that i don't believe projection can recreate a soul.
but the idea of having shirou create an artificial human would be cool as well, though the use of bonedust seems unnesisary. Who wants him to get a robot ally in his battles? Think like the ASSW's from the persona franchise. they are basically regular people in a metal prosthetic body.
homonculus, as in an artificial human with a soul? no. he wouldnt. he would be able to comprehend its makeup and reproduce that in UBW but his reserves would be insufficient to project it into the world.
the body he could probably reproduce, its the soul that he would fail with.
but you bring up a good point. having shirou make a non-sword thing sword compatible through bonedust... maybe he can finally get the Liz off his back about his refusal to make armor? or maybe a familiar of sorts, having an eye in the sky would seem beneficial to the archer. so that he can just keep an eye on the entire dungeon floor and know when someone somewhere is fighting a losing battle?
*edit*
i want to clarify that i believe he could create a homonculus through alchemy and whatever methods usually are used to give a homonculus a soul. i just want to assess that i don't believe projection can recreate a soul.
but the idea of having shirou create an artificial human would be cool as well, though the use of bonedust seems unnesisary. Who wants him to get a robot ally in his battles? Think like the ASSW's from the persona franchise. they are basically regular people in a metal prosthetic body.