Nasuverse FSN + SAO: j-jam it in!
- Thread starter daniel_gudman
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While I do think it's interesting to see how Kibaou and Diabel would interact should Diabel survive... Kibaou is, like, 0% sympathetic at all. Like, he starts off by doing the whole "everything is the beta testers fault" in the first boss meeting, even though Diabel is also a beta tester (which it's... actually implied Kibaou knows, since he helps try to buy Kirito's sword to stop him from getting the last attack due to his beta reputation). Even if he doesn't know that he's still a whining git who is at the same time acting as a middleman to try to buy Kirito's sword for Diabel, which even if it doesn't directly contradict his words at the original boss meeting is still pretty incongrous-feeling in the light novels.
I also seem to recall that the party wipe at the 25th floor boss was because they went in with an understrength party and refused to ask for help, but it's been awhile since I read the relevant bits so I could be wrong. Nonetheless he clearly didn't learn anything from that because the result was setting up the whole subjugation of the Starting City and then however many floors later, sending in an understrength party to fight a floor boss and refusing help (the party survives because Kirito solos the boss, but that doesn't change the fact that he clearly learned nothing).
I also seem to recall that the party wipe at the 25th floor boss was because they went in with an understrength party and refused to ask for help, but it's been awhile since I read the relevant bits so I could be wrong. Nonetheless he clearly didn't learn anything from that because the result was setting up the whole subjugation of the Starting City and then however many floors later, sending in an understrength party to fight a floor boss and refusing help (the party survives because Kirito solos the boss, but that doesn't change the fact that he clearly learned nothing).
It wasn't so much that they sent an under-strength party to the 25th floor so much as it was that the 25th floor, like the 50th and the 75th, was a milestone. Each one of them had a boss fight far and above the challenge of the prior floor. I mean, Kirito was capable of soloing the 74th floor boss and had a very difficult time with the skull reaper battle.
EagleCeres said:
seitora said:
......Ilya route,Ilya route,Ilya route,Ilya route,Ilya route!
Also, given that the Magus system would presumably control a lot differently than the regular fighting system in SAO, I would assume that some people would end up more proficient at Magic than they were at fighting, and once-strong characters fade away to the background.
Or an error in paperwork by a poor befuddled old man. Or lets try this? He never bothered to update his legal existence until recently. Before he just had the family heir handle all of the bullshit of such a nature and then when Kariya went and joined the war effort Old Man Matou forged a new identity pretty much whole cloth then and there.
Arrite, I'm going to make an unnecessary distinction, and then exploit it as a plot twist.
Since Avider is a geneticist, he should consider my example "simple", although... he might be the only one?
The number of circuits you have is fixed from birth. It's a fact encoded in your soul much like how many fingers you have is encoded in your DNA. There is an SHH gene-analog for circuit count in your soul.
However, consider someone who, during fetal development, never turns on the "grow limbs" gene expression so that they have a body like a snake. The fact of "finger count is five" might still exist, but without those genes ever being turned on, the fingers are never expressed, they never exist. It's like how an organism can have the SHH gene fully formed saying "we have five fingers", but if the Hox gene isn't expressed, then the organism fails to start up limb budding; so fingers won't even grow.
Although the vast majority of humans possess "more than one" circuit, the default setting is that they aren't expressed. The fact "normal people don't have circuits" is preserved because, even if they could have a definite number, they don't have them. So we end up with a hypothetical situation where Kayaba can seriously and honestly answer the question, "If someone had circuits, which they don't, how many would they have?"
This fact is the triumphant crystal of Kayaba's research. Even if it's the kind of detail 99% of magi would look at and say "so what?"
Ha ha ha, let's double screw over Shinji, and say that in addition to an incompatibility between "Land" and "System" suppressing Circuit expression, it also decreases count, so the result is that even if Shinji had circuits, he would have zero. When that prognosis was received was the instant Zouken decided that Shinji was a "total failure".
This is where my developmental biology metaphor starts to break down, because what Kayaba does is turn on the limb expression in the adult organism, so they grow those limbs, and end up expressing the number of fingers that was already decided.
It's basically, magic reverse thalidomide???
Since Avider is a geneticist, he should consider my example "simple", although... he might be the only one?
The number of circuits you have is fixed from birth. It's a fact encoded in your soul much like how many fingers you have is encoded in your DNA. There is an SHH gene-analog for circuit count in your soul.
However, consider someone who, during fetal development, never turns on the "grow limbs" gene expression so that they have a body like a snake. The fact of "finger count is five" might still exist, but without those genes ever being turned on, the fingers are never expressed, they never exist. It's like how an organism can have the SHH gene fully formed saying "we have five fingers", but if the Hox gene isn't expressed, then the organism fails to start up limb budding; so fingers won't even grow.
Although the vast majority of humans possess "more than one" circuit, the default setting is that they aren't expressed. The fact "normal people don't have circuits" is preserved because, even if they could have a definite number, they don't have them. So we end up with a hypothetical situation where Kayaba can seriously and honestly answer the question, "If someone had circuits, which they don't, how many would they have?"
This fact is the triumphant crystal of Kayaba's research. Even if it's the kind of detail 99% of magi would look at and say "so what?"
Ha ha ha, let's double screw over Shinji, and say that in addition to an incompatibility between "Land" and "System" suppressing Circuit expression, it also decreases count, so the result is that even if Shinji had circuits, he would have zero. When that prognosis was received was the instant Zouken decided that Shinji was a "total failure".
This is where my developmental biology metaphor starts to break down, because what Kayaba does is turn on the limb expression in the adult organism, so they grow those limbs, and end up expressing the number of fingers that was already decided.
It's basically, magic reverse thalidomide???
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Ha ha, I love it.
I actually had a much longer post, but considering the large amount of assumptions I'd have to make to work with everything, ultimately I decided to cut it. (It depends on the mechanism for everything, and it was just a metaphor anyways, and I think the analogy works good enough.)
I think you can definitely work with what you have, there's a solid foundation there to explore whatever theme interests you.
I actually had a much longer post, but considering the large amount of assumptions I'd have to make to work with everything, ultimately I decided to cut it. (It depends on the mechanism for everything, and it was just a metaphor anyways, and I think the analogy works good enough.)
I think you can definitely work with what you have, there's a solid foundation there to explore whatever theme interests you.
I wasn't that married to Klein being a teacher, so I'm not bothered.
Anyway! Continuing with the theme "the Ideas thread is where the story gets spoiled like crazy", and since I'm not 100% sure what I want to do next, I'm gonna just write down what I've got in my head.
Here's my chapter/scene-wise plan for the first bit:
1) Introduction. Ilya and Shirou get trapped in the [Death Game].
2.1) Ilya's a creepy girl, and then she infodumps on Asuna about magecraft.
2.2) Shirou is a wandering Ally of Justice. That saves people.
Not sure how though. And not sure who though.
2.2.1) Saving Coper would also allow him to meet Kirito, but that was the first day, and anyway, I'm not enthusiastic. He was a sacrifice to rankup Kirito's nihilism, I don't want to get rid of that.
2.2.2) ...Maybe he could save Kaibou? Definitely set up the "mistaken for Killstealer" thing. Might be too early to smack those two personalities together though....
2.2.3) Something something Lisbeth? Silica? They are both important to Shirou as "comrades" in my tentative plans, so I don't want something that looks like I'm just swapping Shirou in for Kirito.
I also want to avoid "superfluous nail" scenarios where people were like, "well, compared to canon where they survived, clearly Shirou didn't need to save them." But at the same time, doesn't that push me towards recruiting a mook up to the level of a character? I'm not enthusiastic about inflating the cast with an OC without any long-term plan.
2.2.4) ...Fucking Grimlock! Since I promoted him to "Mid-boss" from "Sidestory villain", he could do with some foreshadowing. Well, we're still getting into that damn "superfluous nail" situation, but on the other hand, I kinda like the idea that Shirou "inspires" Griselda earlier than canon. ...Maybe she becomes a front-liner?
So I've talked myself into using those two here, but I'm still not sure how.
2.3) Kayaba hard at work (the reason [Circuit Activation] got "easier" is because he's been improving the spell underneath it now that he has a big data set). That infodump gets interrupted when Cardinal pings him on a security breach because Rin and/or Sakura successfully contact Ilya. Kayaba and Ilya make that deal.
3.1) The First-floor boss meeting. Rather than Agil being intimidating, Ilya reveals herself as the legendary griefer from the Beta, "Berserkah", and dares Kaibou to do something about it.
3.2) VS. Ilfang... or something else.
Well, I've been thinking about changing the first boss, but... I think "The Slime that is strong against physical attacks and weak against magecraft" is too premature.
Well, since the game is a "tool to train magic" instead of just being a [Death Game], what's an appropriate kind of opponent...? Something that would impress on the players the potential of magecraft, something that would scare them, but still something they could defeat, without giving the audience an impression of "something from IRL that was cheaply weakened." I don't like the idea of sending them against a human-type boss this early, but actually, making human magi "remarkable bosses" like the 25th, 50th, and 75th Floor bosses could be good in its own way.
So make it a human?
...Heathcliff...?
3.3) After the Battle. Kaibou's petulance.
3.3.1) Ilya is a "beater"; Shirou is a "beater's sidekick"? Not enthusiastic about this direction. Feels too passive.
3.3.2) Shirou calls Kaibou an idiot for applying "the idea of a fair game" to "battle"; giving yourself advantages and preparing things in your favor is the foundation of strategy. "Emiya-style heroism is pretty ruthless"... hm, that could be good.
3.3.3) Something else?
Anyway, just say respond however you want.
Anyway! Continuing with the theme "the Ideas thread is where the story gets spoiled like crazy", and since I'm not 100% sure what I want to do next, I'm gonna just write down what I've got in my head.
Here's my chapter/scene-wise plan for the first bit:
1) Introduction. Ilya and Shirou get trapped in the [Death Game].
2.1) Ilya's a creepy girl, and then she infodumps on Asuna about magecraft.
2.2) Shirou is a wandering Ally of Justice. That saves people.
Not sure how though. And not sure who though.
2.2.1) Saving Coper would also allow him to meet Kirito, but that was the first day, and anyway, I'm not enthusiastic. He was a sacrifice to rankup Kirito's nihilism, I don't want to get rid of that.
2.2.2) ...Maybe he could save Kaibou? Definitely set up the "mistaken for Killstealer" thing. Might be too early to smack those two personalities together though....
2.2.3) Something something Lisbeth? Silica? They are both important to Shirou as "comrades" in my tentative plans, so I don't want something that looks like I'm just swapping Shirou in for Kirito.
I also want to avoid "superfluous nail" scenarios where people were like, "well, compared to canon where they survived, clearly Shirou didn't need to save them." But at the same time, doesn't that push me towards recruiting a mook up to the level of a character? I'm not enthusiastic about inflating the cast with an OC without any long-term plan.
2.2.4) ...Fucking Grimlock! Since I promoted him to "Mid-boss" from "Sidestory villain", he could do with some foreshadowing. Well, we're still getting into that damn "superfluous nail" situation, but on the other hand, I kinda like the idea that Shirou "inspires" Griselda earlier than canon. ...Maybe she becomes a front-liner?
So I've talked myself into using those two here, but I'm still not sure how.
2.3) Kayaba hard at work (the reason [Circuit Activation] got "easier" is because he's been improving the spell underneath it now that he has a big data set). That infodump gets interrupted when Cardinal pings him on a security breach because Rin and/or Sakura successfully contact Ilya. Kayaba and Ilya make that deal.
3.1) The First-floor boss meeting. Rather than Agil being intimidating, Ilya reveals herself as the legendary griefer from the Beta, "Berserkah", and dares Kaibou to do something about it.
3.2) VS. Ilfang... or something else.
Well, I've been thinking about changing the first boss, but... I think "The Slime that is strong against physical attacks and weak against magecraft" is too premature.
Well, since the game is a "tool to train magic" instead of just being a [Death Game], what's an appropriate kind of opponent...? Something that would impress on the players the potential of magecraft, something that would scare them, but still something they could defeat, without giving the audience an impression of "something from IRL that was cheaply weakened." I don't like the idea of sending them against a human-type boss this early, but actually, making human magi "remarkable bosses" like the 25th, 50th, and 75th Floor bosses could be good in its own way.
So make it a human?
...Heathcliff...?
3.3) After the Battle. Kaibou's petulance.
3.3.1) Ilya is a "beater"; Shirou is a "beater's sidekick"? Not enthusiastic about this direction. Feels too passive.
3.3.2) Shirou calls Kaibou an idiot for applying "the idea of a fair game" to "battle"; giving yourself advantages and preparing things in your favor is the foundation of strategy. "Emiya-style heroism is pretty ruthless"... hm, that could be good.
3.3.3) Something else?
Anyway, just say respond however you want.
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After reading through your list of people I think that you may want to show two rescues that Shirou performs. One could be a scene where he saves Liz or Silica. Someone who would be THANKFUL that Shirou was there to help. The real problem would be making up a good reason that the two were in the field. In canon I believe they were both part of the "wait and hide" crowd that remained overwhelming until after the first boss was cleared. Then again with the added element of magecraft... Perhaps one of them took the Circuit or Element quest and their curiousness caused them to venture out despite their fears and the pain it caused? If you want to go that route, I'd tentatively recommend Silica. While she is very young at this time, probably only twelve or so can't remember her exact age, her odd element may be a cause for her to leave should she take the quest to discover it. Also, because she is so young, she might not fully comprehend the dangers as well as she should.
If you feel that is too contrived you could also have Shirou help out someone who while experienced in the original SAO game, didn't adapt to the thaumaturgy system quite so well and comes across a physically resistant enemy. Someone like.. Diabel! A Beta tester and someone who was probably totally thrown off by the thaumaturgy system. I can easily see him coming across a low level thaumaturgy using monster without his circuits active or any spells and requiring help to escape. The idea is in the end to have Shirou save someone who not only did need saving, but recognizes this fact and is thankful for his help.
As for the second person to save, I'd actually recommend Kibaou. The fact of the matter is, there will always be prideful idiots who don't want to admit they needed help. As sorta mean as it is to say this about him, Kibaou fits that headstrong idiot category quite handily. I can easily see him coming across say a mob of flame shooting enemies and being totally overwhelmed by these basic ranged enemies due to them being such a drastic departure from what was fought before. Especially if the enemies had a terrain advantage. I can easily see Shirou intervening and eliminating the enemies quickly and efficiently only for Kibaou to scream at him for stealing his kills. Even though he had no idea what to do in the situation and was likely going to die had Shirou not stepped in. This meeting will almost certainly end with Kibaou raging at Shirou regardless of what Shirou tries to mollify him.
In the end I think you need to strike a balance between the two types of people here that Shirou saves. Not everyone will be thankful and not everyone will be an ass about him trying to save people. However, what's important is that we get an idea of what Shirou's overall mindset and feelings are at come the First Floor Boss. As well as the overall impression people have of him.
The sad fact of the matter is, that in the first few weeks of the game, the number of people that have access to significant offensive magic is likely to be very low. Even with the system assist, it is very likely that Shirou despite being from Fate route and arguably the weakest end game Shirou from Fate/Stay Night is so far ahead of the others its not even funny. As such he is gonna see a lot of mixed results. Some of the people will probably admire his strength and that he used it to save them. Others will despise and envy him, demanding to know how he got so strong. However, with Shirou's incomplete though developing Tracing and his experience from the Grail Wars... Shirou is quite frankly far better prepared than the others to deal with things in SAO.
This part could be either great or bad depending on how you do this. I actually agree with you that Shirou and Ilya need to know that people aren't actually dying on the outside. Otherwise, as you said, Shirou will become either a machine or a monster focused only on saving people or clearing the game quicker so that fewer people will die.
However, I think that when Kayaba and Ilya (don't know if you want Shirou to be there for the meeting) make the deal you should make sure Kayaba includes one VERY important new rule for the two of them.
"Anyone who knows the truth about people not dying in the real world when killed in SAO will be subject to what I originally said during the tutorial. That is to say... Those who know that death in Sword Art Online is not real, shall have the rule changed for themselves so that death will be real."
Thing is, if death isn't real in SAO from the player perspective then Kayaba's whole set-up begins to fall apart. As such that knowledge more than anything else is something he wants to protect. He probably doesn't want to kill Shirou and Ilya via GM privileges as their presence is likely to accelerate the development of mages in SAO. Especially since they (or at least Shirou) are part of the incredibly rare fraction of magi who care about human life. And Shirou actually wants to be a Hero. Someone who is likely to protect the players of SAO when they are released from the game later on and have to deal with the Magus Association upon awakening.
Sadly that makes a lot of sense and I can easily see this taking place. However, if you have Shirou "save" Kibaou earlier you should also make a note here to have the two of them confront each other again. Depending on Shirou's rep among the people there this could be an opportunity to have people either support Kibaou or Shirou.
Come to think of it... If you make it so Shirou saved Diabel and Kibaou... THAT could be an interesting situation where the one calling the raid together is thankful and the loudmouth of the group is angry at the "Hero of Justice."
One thing that I think is important though... There is no way that most of the players will assume that the boss raid won't have changed. With the introduction of thaumaturgy, new enemies in the field that use it, and all the other various changes that you've alluded to the raiders would have to be IDIOTS to overlook this. As such, while I can still see them checking the guidebook to get an idea of what they're up against, I believe only a few of them would take it at face value after all the changes that were made. Argo herself is likely to flat out state this as she prides herself on her accuracy and being the top information broker probably knows more than anyone short of Kayaba himself how much the game has changed since the beta.
Hmm... While I see your point about the Physical attack immune slime being a tab early I think a human form enemy might be a bit premature. After all, a human coul
I see two ways to go about this battle. Keep Ilfang as the boss but change his twist to instead of just pulling out a different kind of sword, allow him to cast spells. Perhaps even have mage kobolds spawn instead of merely melee warrior kobolds.
The other option is to change Ilfang entirely like you originally planned. Though maybe instead of giving the enemy immunity/very high resistance to physical attacks, maybe you should instead make the boss resistant to them and make it so taking it down without some form of thaumaturgy is much harder but still technically possible.
Agreed. Actually I think that rather than caring about Beaters... Kibaou will probably care about something much more damning... From what you've been hinting magecraft is going to be NECESSARY for this fight. As such, this will probably be the first time that anyone sees Ilya and Shirou go all out with their thaumaturgy. Keeping in mind that most of the players will probably only have maybe one or two spells outside of the basics like external reinforcement and projection, Shirou's proto-tracing an incomplete Caliburn and self-reinforcement is likely to be seen as ridiculously advanced. Especially if players find out how dangerous and difficult the technique is and find that there is no quest for it on the first floor.
Even greater though... Ilya's wischcraft is DEFINITELY gonna turn heads. The ability to cast any spell so long as she pays a bunch of extra prana and having a ridiculously huge circuit count? That will have people screaming hax whether they have learned about Sorcery Traits or not at this point. Heck even pulling something like Irisviel's wire eagle or some other application of battle alchemy is likely to cause shock among the players.
This will also cause some of the smarter players to recall Kayaba talking about a "real world" thaumaturgy system. As such it's entirely possible that some of the smarter players may realize or at least suspect that Shirou and Ilya knew about thaumaturgy BEFORE SAO.
I can sorta see this, but I think you need to fix your tone here. This sounds much more like Archer than Shirou. Seeing how this is post-fate route, Shirou at this point is actually quite idealistic. This harshness seems a tad too strong and abrupt unless he's hardened more over this one month in SAO than he did during the entire grail war. The way I see Shirou giving a similar speech would probably be more in line with the idea of...
This isn't a game anymore. This is a battle. A war against the world that Kayaba created. Fairness has nothing to do with anything! What matters is getting strong enough to protect both yourself and the others that you want to. When you step onto the battlefield you are making that choice for yourself. As such you don't have any right to blame others if you die because you knew the risk before you set out. If you don't want to die then stay in the safe areas and let others work to clear the game, but if you want to fight anyways then do so knowing that should you lose your life you knew the risks and have no right to blame others.
In other words, I think Shirou's speech would be more about not shifting the blame to others and taking the responsibility on your own self. Rather than focusing on the unfairness of the whole situation, he would focus on the fact that the players themselves need to take responsibility and understand what it is they are getting into when they decide to fight in SAO. And that in the end they can't blame others for their own shortcomings as they chose this for themselves.
Actually... I think ILYA would be a better person to give a harsh speech. Thing is... Ilya is likely the only MAGUS on the frontlines. And by MAGUS I mean a magus in the most important sense. An absolute acknowledgment of the harshness of the world and the fact that when you become a magus (or in this case a frontliner) you accept that death can come at any time for any number of reasons. And lacking most standard human notions of morality and propriety Ilya would not be afraid to say this directly to the entire front line of clearers regardless of just how harsh and heartless it sounds.
Anyways, that's just my ideas and impression. Not sure if you want to use any of it, but I hope my input was helpful.
If you feel that is too contrived you could also have Shirou help out someone who while experienced in the original SAO game, didn't adapt to the thaumaturgy system quite so well and comes across a physically resistant enemy. Someone like.. Diabel! A Beta tester and someone who was probably totally thrown off by the thaumaturgy system. I can easily see him coming across a low level thaumaturgy using monster without his circuits active or any spells and requiring help to escape. The idea is in the end to have Shirou save someone who not only did need saving, but recognizes this fact and is thankful for his help.
As for the second person to save, I'd actually recommend Kibaou. The fact of the matter is, there will always be prideful idiots who don't want to admit they needed help. As sorta mean as it is to say this about him, Kibaou fits that headstrong idiot category quite handily. I can easily see him coming across say a mob of flame shooting enemies and being totally overwhelmed by these basic ranged enemies due to them being such a drastic departure from what was fought before. Especially if the enemies had a terrain advantage. I can easily see Shirou intervening and eliminating the enemies quickly and efficiently only for Kibaou to scream at him for stealing his kills. Even though he had no idea what to do in the situation and was likely going to die had Shirou not stepped in. This meeting will almost certainly end with Kibaou raging at Shirou regardless of what Shirou tries to mollify him.
In the end I think you need to strike a balance between the two types of people here that Shirou saves. Not everyone will be thankful and not everyone will be an ass about him trying to save people. However, what's important is that we get an idea of what Shirou's overall mindset and feelings are at come the First Floor Boss. As well as the overall impression people have of him.
The sad fact of the matter is, that in the first few weeks of the game, the number of people that have access to significant offensive magic is likely to be very low. Even with the system assist, it is very likely that Shirou despite being from Fate route and arguably the weakest end game Shirou from Fate/Stay Night is so far ahead of the others its not even funny. As such he is gonna see a lot of mixed results. Some of the people will probably admire his strength and that he used it to save them. Others will despise and envy him, demanding to know how he got so strong. However, with Shirou's incomplete though developing Tracing and his experience from the Grail Wars... Shirou is quite frankly far better prepared than the others to deal with things in SAO.
This part could be either great or bad depending on how you do this. I actually agree with you that Shirou and Ilya need to know that people aren't actually dying on the outside. Otherwise, as you said, Shirou will become either a machine or a monster focused only on saving people or clearing the game quicker so that fewer people will die.
However, I think that when Kayaba and Ilya (don't know if you want Shirou to be there for the meeting) make the deal you should make sure Kayaba includes one VERY important new rule for the two of them.
"Anyone who knows the truth about people not dying in the real world when killed in SAO will be subject to what I originally said during the tutorial. That is to say... Those who know that death in Sword Art Online is not real, shall have the rule changed for themselves so that death will be real."
Thing is, if death isn't real in SAO from the player perspective then Kayaba's whole set-up begins to fall apart. As such that knowledge more than anything else is something he wants to protect. He probably doesn't want to kill Shirou and Ilya via GM privileges as their presence is likely to accelerate the development of mages in SAO. Especially since they (or at least Shirou) are part of the incredibly rare fraction of magi who care about human life. And Shirou actually wants to be a Hero. Someone who is likely to protect the players of SAO when they are released from the game later on and have to deal with the Magus Association upon awakening.
Sadly that makes a lot of sense and I can easily see this taking place. However, if you have Shirou "save" Kibaou earlier you should also make a note here to have the two of them confront each other again. Depending on Shirou's rep among the people there this could be an opportunity to have people either support Kibaou or Shirou.
Come to think of it... If you make it so Shirou saved Diabel and Kibaou... THAT could be an interesting situation where the one calling the raid together is thankful and the loudmouth of the group is angry at the "Hero of Justice."
One thing that I think is important though... There is no way that most of the players will assume that the boss raid won't have changed. With the introduction of thaumaturgy, new enemies in the field that use it, and all the other various changes that you've alluded to the raiders would have to be IDIOTS to overlook this. As such, while I can still see them checking the guidebook to get an idea of what they're up against, I believe only a few of them would take it at face value after all the changes that were made. Argo herself is likely to flat out state this as she prides herself on her accuracy and being the top information broker probably knows more than anyone short of Kayaba himself how much the game has changed since the beta.
Hmm... While I see your point about the Physical attack immune slime being a tab early I think a human form enemy might be a bit premature. After all, a human coul
I see two ways to go about this battle. Keep Ilfang as the boss but change his twist to instead of just pulling out a different kind of sword, allow him to cast spells. Perhaps even have mage kobolds spawn instead of merely melee warrior kobolds.
The other option is to change Ilfang entirely like you originally planned. Though maybe instead of giving the enemy immunity/very high resistance to physical attacks, maybe you should instead make the boss resistant to them and make it so taking it down without some form of thaumaturgy is much harder but still technically possible.
Agreed. Actually I think that rather than caring about Beaters... Kibaou will probably care about something much more damning... From what you've been hinting magecraft is going to be NECESSARY for this fight. As such, this will probably be the first time that anyone sees Ilya and Shirou go all out with their thaumaturgy. Keeping in mind that most of the players will probably only have maybe one or two spells outside of the basics like external reinforcement and projection, Shirou's proto-tracing an incomplete Caliburn and self-reinforcement is likely to be seen as ridiculously advanced. Especially if players find out how dangerous and difficult the technique is and find that there is no quest for it on the first floor.
Even greater though... Ilya's wischcraft is DEFINITELY gonna turn heads. The ability to cast any spell so long as she pays a bunch of extra prana and having a ridiculously huge circuit count? That will have people screaming hax whether they have learned about Sorcery Traits or not at this point. Heck even pulling something like Irisviel's wire eagle or some other application of battle alchemy is likely to cause shock among the players.
This will also cause some of the smarter players to recall Kayaba talking about a "real world" thaumaturgy system. As such it's entirely possible that some of the smarter players may realize or at least suspect that Shirou and Ilya knew about thaumaturgy BEFORE SAO.
I can sorta see this, but I think you need to fix your tone here. This sounds much more like Archer than Shirou. Seeing how this is post-fate route, Shirou at this point is actually quite idealistic. This harshness seems a tad too strong and abrupt unless he's hardened more over this one month in SAO than he did during the entire grail war. The way I see Shirou giving a similar speech would probably be more in line with the idea of...
This isn't a game anymore. This is a battle. A war against the world that Kayaba created. Fairness has nothing to do with anything! What matters is getting strong enough to protect both yourself and the others that you want to. When you step onto the battlefield you are making that choice for yourself. As such you don't have any right to blame others if you die because you knew the risk before you set out. If you don't want to die then stay in the safe areas and let others work to clear the game, but if you want to fight anyways then do so knowing that should you lose your life you knew the risks and have no right to blame others.
In other words, I think Shirou's speech would be more about not shifting the blame to others and taking the responsibility on your own self. Rather than focusing on the unfairness of the whole situation, he would focus on the fact that the players themselves need to take responsibility and understand what it is they are getting into when they decide to fight in SAO. And that in the end they can't blame others for their own shortcomings as they chose this for themselves.
Actually... I think ILYA would be a better person to give a harsh speech. Thing is... Ilya is likely the only MAGUS on the frontlines. And by MAGUS I mean a magus in the most important sense. An absolute acknowledgment of the harshness of the world and the fact that when you become a magus (or in this case a frontliner) you accept that death can come at any time for any number of reasons. And lacking most standard human notions of morality and propriety Ilya would not be afraid to say this directly to the entire front line of clearers regardless of just how harsh and heartless it sounds.
Anyways, that's just my ideas and impression. Not sure if you want to use any of it, but I hope my input was helpful.
Coper could be interesting from the angle of 'this is a guy that Shirou should NOT have saved'. It's possible that even if saved, Coper would still attempt a similar trick later on and successfully MPK someone.
(edit: fixed name reference)
<kneejerk>no they are part of Kirito's harem what are you doing</kneejerk>
Silica could be interesting to look at from a magical perspective to get early hints at some kind of potential for taming/dragon familiar?
In a fic like this, I think it sort of demands that OCs be present, to avoid intersecting the plot happening elsewhere. Could just use a larger cast and give 'em all hooks and see what sticks. It may or may not end up feeling contrived if Shirou somehow saves the Black Cats or a similar group, y'know?
How closely were you planning on having Shirou hang out with canon characters as it stands? For a guy focused on Saving People like him, I don't think it'd just be him and Ilya training non-stop in the wilderness, I think even she'd get bored of that even having him all to herself.
Griselda's kind of interesting because we don't get to see her transformation, but we see the immense loyalty she inspired in the survivors. It depends how early any contact between Shirou and Griselda happens, before/after picking up Caynz/Yolko/Schmitt into their guild. Schmitt certainly became competent enough to stand on the front lines and Caynz and Yolko have a certain admirable cunning...but does that happen in the first place if those five never meet?
Any info on whether Kayaba nudged things in order to get good 'base material' to work with or if he's doing with this a pure 'random sampling'?
This could be interesting because it's a dichotomy between Ilya being a troll and still undeniably having helped at least a few people out on release.
When I think basics of magecraft that noobs can still deal with, I kind of think familiars.
Mage-type boss that fights primarily with waves of familiars? Mage is weak to physical, familiars very weak to magic but can still be taken down by physical if necessary?
Caster's Dragon Tooth Warriors? Or Misaya's dogs? Or even save those for a later floor and use something even weaker?
Depends on if Diabel is still planning shenanigans and if Shirou can save him.
Kirito accepted the beater tag because he's not that great socially, in truth, and to focus the hatred against beta players solely on himself. I don't think Ilya would take that lying down by far.
SZ has some very good points here also.
SZ hit the nail on the head. Even if Shirou is a crap Magus, he still understands that he's putting his life on the line and whatever happens is a result of his actions. I can see either Shirou and/or Ilya would call Kibaou out for not accepting responsibility for walking his path and for disrespecting the memory of those who tried and died.
(edit: fixed name reference)
<kneejerk>no they are part of Kirito's harem what are you doing</kneejerk>
Silica could be interesting to look at from a magical perspective to get early hints at some kind of potential for taming/dragon familiar?
In a fic like this, I think it sort of demands that OCs be present, to avoid intersecting the plot happening elsewhere. Could just use a larger cast and give 'em all hooks and see what sticks. It may or may not end up feeling contrived if Shirou somehow saves the Black Cats or a similar group, y'know?
How closely were you planning on having Shirou hang out with canon characters as it stands? For a guy focused on Saving People like him, I don't think it'd just be him and Ilya training non-stop in the wilderness, I think even she'd get bored of that even having him all to herself.
Griselda's kind of interesting because we don't get to see her transformation, but we see the immense loyalty she inspired in the survivors. It depends how early any contact between Shirou and Griselda happens, before/after picking up Caynz/Yolko/Schmitt into their guild. Schmitt certainly became competent enough to stand on the front lines and Caynz and Yolko have a certain admirable cunning...but does that happen in the first place if those five never meet?
Any info on whether Kayaba nudged things in order to get good 'base material' to work with or if he's doing with this a pure 'random sampling'?
This could be interesting because it's a dichotomy between Ilya being a troll and still undeniably having helped at least a few people out on release.
When I think basics of magecraft that noobs can still deal with, I kind of think familiars.
Mage-type boss that fights primarily with waves of familiars? Mage is weak to physical, familiars very weak to magic but can still be taken down by physical if necessary?
Caster's Dragon Tooth Warriors? Or Misaya's dogs? Or even save those for a later floor and use something even weaker?
Depends on if Diabel is still planning shenanigans and if Shirou can save him.
Kirito accepted the beater tag because he's not that great socially, in truth, and to focus the hatred against beta players solely on himself. I don't think Ilya would take that lying down by far.
SZ has some very good points here also.
SZ hit the nail on the head. Even if Shirou is a crap Magus, he still understands that he's putting his life on the line and whatever happens is a result of his actions. I can see either Shirou and/or Ilya would call Kibaou out for not accepting responsibility for walking his path and for disrespecting the memory of those who tried and died.
What if the "refinement" process of creating mages looks at Ilya, flags her in the system as a person of interest, and begins refining her, but the opposite way.
The way I've thought of magi is they're like refined steel. Steel is iron (body) and carbon (soul). Too much iron and there's not much difference. Too much carbon and it's hard, but brittle. And after being turned into a homonculus, Ilya is very brittle. So much that she's almost chipping. Normal people are those with body and soul, but they haven't been 'refined' enough to actively make use of them or have insufficient soul. Then you have people like Shirou and Satsuki who were 'forged' into magi because of events in their lives.
Now SAO is an experimental forging and refining process. Since it's trying for the best possible mix, it looks at Ilya, discovers the mass of soul that's the lesser grail and begins smoothing it out. Ilya starts growing at an accelerated rate (say a year every 2 months). Her circuits don't increase, but her body is now no longer falling apart.
When she and Shirou make the deal, they agree to let Ilya stay in the game for the refining process instead of a new body. Maybe she begins to grasp the third magic as a result?
Hope that made sense, because typing on a phone is a pain.
The way I've thought of magi is they're like refined steel. Steel is iron (body) and carbon (soul). Too much iron and there's not much difference. Too much carbon and it's hard, but brittle. And after being turned into a homonculus, Ilya is very brittle. So much that she's almost chipping. Normal people are those with body and soul, but they haven't been 'refined' enough to actively make use of them or have insufficient soul. Then you have people like Shirou and Satsuki who were 'forged' into magi because of events in their lives.
Now SAO is an experimental forging and refining process. Since it's trying for the best possible mix, it looks at Ilya, discovers the mass of soul that's the lesser grail and begins smoothing it out. Ilya starts growing at an accelerated rate (say a year every 2 months). Her circuits don't increase, but her body is now no longer falling apart.
When she and Shirou make the deal, they agree to let Ilya stay in the game for the refining process instead of a new body. Maybe she begins to grasp the third magic as a result?
Hope that made sense, because typing on a phone is a pain.
Random thought: With the focus on magic in this version, do Unique Skills not exist in this version? Or do exist but aren't the weapon focused ones? (That would neatly sidestep any questions of who would get Dual Blades between Kirito and Shirou.)
Although, that opens up the possibility of Noble Phantasms instead...?
Although, that opens up the possibility of Noble Phantasms instead...?
Although its entirely possible that Kayaba eliminated weapon style unique skills for the release seeing how he's focused on magic instead, I don't see him making thaumaturgy related ones. After all, Kayaba's main goal is to get the players to progress as magi. As such, apart from the initial schools and spells he teaches them, his goal should be for each player to eventually begin progressing their craft using their own knowledge and ingenuity. It's entirely possible that at one point the system assist will stop helping the players with thaumaturgy at all so that they can understand what its like to cast in the real world as well as develop their own spells just like a real world magus would.
As for Dual Blades... To be honest, the biggest appeal to the Dual Blades skill was the sword skills that came along with it. These sword skills were widely considered the best offensive sword skills in the entire game.
However, the sword style that Archer learned and that Shirou may have gleaned a bit of from during the grail war is a far different style of dual swords than Dual Blades. Archer's style was absolutely prideless and focused on purposefully creating fatal gaps in his defenses so that he would know where the next strike would come from and dictate the course of the battle even against opponents far superior to him in age, power, and experience. I'm uncertain that its really all that compatible with the offensive oriented Dual Blades that Kayaba programmed into Sword Art Online.
Not to mention, Shirou it appears will not be relying on sword skills at all. In a death game it seems to me that he would much prefer to take longer to kill something than leave himself open to attack during the freeze phase after using a sword skill. It's entirely possible that Dual Blades would be wasted on him should it remain a unique Sword Skill style and be purposeless even if it is made a mere extra skill.
I think it is unlikely if Kayaba wants the players to progress as they would in the real world and raise magi. While absolutely awesome, giving players Noble Phantasms without some very good reason would be ultimately detrimental to their development. Think of how much a person's fighting style and thaumaturgic focus would shift if they were provided with a noble phantasm in game. And then imagine how much their fighting style would be unbalanced and weakened in the real world where they did not possess said noble phantasm.
Shirou is a special case. His ability to trace them should he perfect the skill in SAO is a sort of loophole in the system that performs an act that quite frankly would make most lords in Clocktower drool. However I doubt even he will simply be "given" a noble phantasm to wield as Kayaba would probably prefer that Shirou focus on increasing his tracing to the point that he could trace anything on the same level as he does Avalon. (I'm going to assume that Kayaba doesn't know about UBW)
Now an ENEMY having a noble phantasm on the other hand... Well... Given the tier that Servants represent you probably won't see one until late in SAO. Probably not earlier than floor 50 for even the weaker ones. Except maybe a weaker Assassin class servant. Those guys always seem to get the short end of the stick stat wise. However Servants would make good floor bosses. Especially for floors that would be intended to be particularly difficult...
I am now imagining that the 75th floor boss Skull Reaper is replaced by one creature far more terrifying to Ilya and Shirou at first glance.
*****
Kirito stood stoically as they prepared to enter the floor boss's room. Despite having been through so many raids before this one, the upcoming confrontation with the 75th floor boss was making him nervous. Every 25 floors, the floor boss would be particularly dangerous. As such, being unable to retreat was a very worrying situation. Still, it was necessary in order to clear the game and he wouldn't stop here. After all, as Shirou had told Kibaou back on the first floor, they had all chosen this fate for themselves. Each and every one of their group had accepted they might die in trying to clear the game. There was no room for regrets here.
"Forward!" Heathcliff shouted.
Behind him the other 47 members of the 75th floor raid group roared in response and charged into the darkened room. The entire raid quickly spread out across the circular platform, though they all stood far enough from the edge to remain out of danger. The door closed shut behind them. Cautiously the group members all looked around.
"There's nothing..." One member said softly while looking around. Kirito's eyes drifted over a bit to where Heathcliff stood.
Heathcliff, though he remained in a guarded stance nodded towards Shirou. For his part Shirou nodded in response. "I am the bone of my sword." He incanted softly. With the first line of his aria stated he focused od and used structural analysis on the entire room. Prana quickly mapped out their battle arena and less than a second later the information would reach the player.
Then his eyes flew open and Kirito saw something in Shirou's eyes that made the black swordsman's blood run cold. They were filled with terror. Not even fear. Absolute, pure, unadulterated terror.
"Kayaba you bastard..." Shirou fearfully muttered. "EVERYONE! Spread out and pull away from the center! Ilya tell them everything you can about our enemy! I'll hold him off during the initial battle!"
Even as the other players began to follow Shirou's shouted orders, Ilya looked alarmed. "Huh? But Shirou... I don't know what our enemy looks like!"
Shirou ran towards the center, a bow and sword forming in his hand. "You know him better than any of us! After all he's..."
He was cut off when a giant hulking human figure crashed into the ground before him. That... MONSTER before him couldn't possibly be human. It's entire skin was a greyish black. IT stood over 250 cm tall. That... THING before them radiated power and madness greater than anything he'd ever felt before in SAO. And more than that... Ilya's eyes were also looking at this creature in absolute terror and... was that a bit of sorrow?
This thing terrified not only the fearless Hero of Justice but even his terrifying partner. The legendary griefer of the Beta, Berserkah. As well as the most magically powerful girl in all of SAO who possessed an insane number of magic circuits as well as the sorcery trait of Wishcraft to go with it.
"Berserker..." He heard the white haired girl say softly.
From his position in the center of the platform. The legendary Heracles, remade for the purpose of stopping this group of aspiring magi from escaping, roared.
*****
Good luck Raid party! Do you have enough A rank attacks among all of you to kill this monster 12 times? Oh and any time one of you kills him, know that he becomes immune to his last method of death! Somehow given Heracles stats I don't see them getting away with only 14 deaths assuming that Shirou's tracing hasn't progressed to the point that he can use Nine Lives Bladeworks.
Anyways, snippet aside, we probably won't see anyone outside of Shirou using noble phantasms unless he manages to learn how to adjust them further for other people to wield or they're in the possession of bosses.
As for Dual Blades... To be honest, the biggest appeal to the Dual Blades skill was the sword skills that came along with it. These sword skills were widely considered the best offensive sword skills in the entire game.
However, the sword style that Archer learned and that Shirou may have gleaned a bit of from during the grail war is a far different style of dual swords than Dual Blades. Archer's style was absolutely prideless and focused on purposefully creating fatal gaps in his defenses so that he would know where the next strike would come from and dictate the course of the battle even against opponents far superior to him in age, power, and experience. I'm uncertain that its really all that compatible with the offensive oriented Dual Blades that Kayaba programmed into Sword Art Online.
Not to mention, Shirou it appears will not be relying on sword skills at all. In a death game it seems to me that he would much prefer to take longer to kill something than leave himself open to attack during the freeze phase after using a sword skill. It's entirely possible that Dual Blades would be wasted on him should it remain a unique Sword Skill style and be purposeless even if it is made a mere extra skill.
I think it is unlikely if Kayaba wants the players to progress as they would in the real world and raise magi. While absolutely awesome, giving players Noble Phantasms without some very good reason would be ultimately detrimental to their development. Think of how much a person's fighting style and thaumaturgic focus would shift if they were provided with a noble phantasm in game. And then imagine how much their fighting style would be unbalanced and weakened in the real world where they did not possess said noble phantasm.
Shirou is a special case. His ability to trace them should he perfect the skill in SAO is a sort of loophole in the system that performs an act that quite frankly would make most lords in Clocktower drool. However I doubt even he will simply be "given" a noble phantasm to wield as Kayaba would probably prefer that Shirou focus on increasing his tracing to the point that he could trace anything on the same level as he does Avalon. (I'm going to assume that Kayaba doesn't know about UBW)
Now an ENEMY having a noble phantasm on the other hand... Well... Given the tier that Servants represent you probably won't see one until late in SAO. Probably not earlier than floor 50 for even the weaker ones. Except maybe a weaker Assassin class servant. Those guys always seem to get the short end of the stick stat wise. However Servants would make good floor bosses. Especially for floors that would be intended to be particularly difficult...
I am now imagining that the 75th floor boss Skull Reaper is replaced by one creature far more terrifying to Ilya and Shirou at first glance.
*****
Kirito stood stoically as they prepared to enter the floor boss's room. Despite having been through so many raids before this one, the upcoming confrontation with the 75th floor boss was making him nervous. Every 25 floors, the floor boss would be particularly dangerous. As such, being unable to retreat was a very worrying situation. Still, it was necessary in order to clear the game and he wouldn't stop here. After all, as Shirou had told Kibaou back on the first floor, they had all chosen this fate for themselves. Each and every one of their group had accepted they might die in trying to clear the game. There was no room for regrets here.
"Forward!" Heathcliff shouted.
Behind him the other 47 members of the 75th floor raid group roared in response and charged into the darkened room. The entire raid quickly spread out across the circular platform, though they all stood far enough from the edge to remain out of danger. The door closed shut behind them. Cautiously the group members all looked around.
"There's nothing..." One member said softly while looking around. Kirito's eyes drifted over a bit to where Heathcliff stood.
Heathcliff, though he remained in a guarded stance nodded towards Shirou. For his part Shirou nodded in response. "I am the bone of my sword." He incanted softly. With the first line of his aria stated he focused od and used structural analysis on the entire room. Prana quickly mapped out their battle arena and less than a second later the information would reach the player.
Then his eyes flew open and Kirito saw something in Shirou's eyes that made the black swordsman's blood run cold. They were filled with terror. Not even fear. Absolute, pure, unadulterated terror.
"Kayaba you bastard..." Shirou fearfully muttered. "EVERYONE! Spread out and pull away from the center! Ilya tell them everything you can about our enemy! I'll hold him off during the initial battle!"
Even as the other players began to follow Shirou's shouted orders, Ilya looked alarmed. "Huh? But Shirou... I don't know what our enemy looks like!"
Shirou ran towards the center, a bow and sword forming in his hand. "You know him better than any of us! After all he's..."
He was cut off when a giant hulking human figure crashed into the ground before him. That... MONSTER before him couldn't possibly be human. It's entire skin was a greyish black. IT stood over 250 cm tall. That... THING before them radiated power and madness greater than anything he'd ever felt before in SAO. And more than that... Ilya's eyes were also looking at this creature in absolute terror and... was that a bit of sorrow?
This thing terrified not only the fearless Hero of Justice but even his terrifying partner. The legendary griefer of the Beta, Berserkah. As well as the most magically powerful girl in all of SAO who possessed an insane number of magic circuits as well as the sorcery trait of Wishcraft to go with it.
"Berserker..." He heard the white haired girl say softly.
From his position in the center of the platform. The legendary Heracles, remade for the purpose of stopping this group of aspiring magi from escaping, roared.
*****
Good luck Raid party! Do you have enough A rank attacks among all of you to kill this monster 12 times? Oh and any time one of you kills him, know that he becomes immune to his last method of death! Somehow given Heracles stats I don't see them getting away with only 14 deaths assuming that Shirou's tracing hasn't progressed to the point that he can use Nine Lives Bladeworks.
Anyways, snippet aside, we probably won't see anyone outside of Shirou using noble phantasms unless he manages to learn how to adjust them further for other people to wield or they're in the possession of bosses.
Ah, actually, I was more referencing the canonical criteria for receiving Dual Blades, not necessarily the appropriateness of the skill landing on a given person. Kirito's pretty hax in that regard, but in terms of reaction speed, a serious look does have to be taken at the person who was fighting Servants (and in many ways that fighting style demands good reaction speed, as even giving up openings as a handicap, you still have to move in accordance).
That said, yes Shirou probably won't want to use Sword Skills, but as a former main feature of SAO, the damage system was weighted such that basic sword attacks were remarkably less effective compared to the skill. (Well, of course, we can just say that Shirou's real experience means his body already moves with the same strength and speed without needing System Assist, so that neatly ties up that.)
Heh, nice. Yeah, that's a reasonable viewpoint. Though, how much knowledge of the magical world are we saying Kayaba has here?
Hmm, in addition to bosses, programmed NPCs (not just bosses) that are very clearly knockoffs of known/famous mages to give players an idea of the kinds of ridiculous things that real world mages accomplish? Or would that be counterproductive to having them progress in their own ways?
(Gem using, 'gun' shooting mage shows up? Rin doesn't care that much, she just wants her licensing rights!)
That said, yes Shirou probably won't want to use Sword Skills, but as a former main feature of SAO, the damage system was weighted such that basic sword attacks were remarkably less effective compared to the skill. (Well, of course, we can just say that Shirou's real experience means his body already moves with the same strength and speed without needing System Assist, so that neatly ties up that.)
Heh, nice. Yeah, that's a reasonable viewpoint. Though, how much knowledge of the magical world are we saying Kayaba has here?
Hmm, in addition to bosses, programmed NPCs (not just bosses) that are very clearly knockoffs of known/famous mages to give players an idea of the kinds of ridiculous things that real world mages accomplish? Or would that be counterproductive to having them progress in their own ways?
(Gem using, 'gun' shooting mage shows up? Rin doesn't care that much, she just wants her licensing rights!)