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Been to a electronic store recently? It's pretty much all 4k now, and you can score a 55 or less inch for less then $450 these days for many fo the budget brands. And it's only going to fall further with even the budget 65 inches falling near $550 these days. 8k is a niche, and I doubt we'll ever see a AAA 8k game for a generation or two.

But not targetting 4k is silly at this point. That's where the market is going and it's not something they can ignore.
It won't be that long, at least on PC.

There are already mods for PC that will run several games at that resolution, and there have been 8k textures in some games for a while now. Official support won't be far behind, especially since it won't be hard to do. You don't actually need 8k textures to support 8k as a resolution.

It's also already a thing because of VR, which is pushing things in that direction as well. The fact that the tech is already that small means it will probably get cheap fast. VR is not a huge market, but is more than niche at this point. Superhot sold more VR copies than the original game and there is an install base for VR in the millions already. Several of the more popular VR titles are hitting sales numbers in the millions.

PCgamers are the early adopters of this sort of tech. So gaming is where it will become a common thing first.

I'm pretty sure you're underestimating when we'll see 8k gaming become a thing. GPU cards already exist that can do it. It will be this generation and there are games in development that are already targeting it for the PC market.

It might be a generation before it's common, but it being a thing for AAA titles is the very near future on PC.

Consoles won't see it until a generation jump because of hardware limitations. They are always a few steps behind PC just by the nature of their hardware cycles. PC is predictive of what consoles will do because they tend to use tech that has been proven in the PC market for console hardware.
 
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Antimatter

Well-Known Member
It won't be that long, at least on PC.

There are already mods for PC that will run several games at that resolution, and there have been 8k textures in some games for a while now. Official support won't be far behind, especially since it won't be hard to do. You don't actually need 8k textures to support 8k as a resolution.

It's also already a thing because of VR, which is pushing things in that direction as well. The fact that the tech is already that small means it will probably get cheap fast. VR is not a huge market, but is more than niche at this point. Superhot sold more VR copies than the original game and there is an install base for VR in the millions already. Several of the more popular VR titles are hitting sales numbers in the millions.

PCgamers are the early adopters of this sort of tech. So gaming is where it will become a common thing first.

I'm pretty sure you're underestimating when we'll see 8k gaming become a thing. GPU cards already exist that can do it. It will be this generation and there are games in development that are already targeting it for the PC market.

It might be a generation before it's common, but it being a thing for AAA titles is the very near future on PC.

Consoles won't see it until a generation jump because of hardware limitations. They are always a few steps behind PC just by the nature of their hardware cycles. PC is predictive of what consoles will do because they tend to use tech that has been proven in the PC market for console hardware.
I was thinking more in terms of screen adoption rates, and the fact that even high end cards struggle with 4k in some games. 8k at playable frame rates and details is pretty rare. Toss in no 8k TV, streaming or Blueray content and it's a solution in need of content.

I don't expect any console support of note in the next ten years. Maybe some fancy tech demos and low asset games, but that's really it.

8k VR will look amazing, but it has the same issue. Not a whole lot out that could drive the screens at the required frame rates.
 

chronodekar

Obsessively signs his posts
Staff member
I had to look up the Superhot thing. According to;
https://www.pcgamesn.com/superhot-vr/superhot-vr-sales

Superhot VR made more _revenue_ than non-VR. And if I'm reading correctly, the VR only title had a combined sales of 800k across all platforms. That's not "millions" of sales in VR, but most certainly within a stone throw's distance.

Looking at other games,
Beat Saber (the title reminds me of Fate Stay Night, but I have no idea what the game is about) from EA sold over 1 million copies.
https://www.roadtovr.com/beat-saber-sells-one-million-copies/

Don't have official numbers for Skyrim, Fallout4 or Doom VR, but Bethesda seems to be happy with them.
https://uploadvr.com/bethesda-skyrim-vr-fallout-doom-sold-well/
And according to UNofficial sources, Skyrim sold about 1 million copies.

As for install base, Sony says they sold 4.2 million headsets.
https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/26/sony-4-2-million-playstation-vr-headset-sales/

In broad strokes, you're right @Contrabardus . VR as a medium is most certainly here. Now, whether I'll personally put down cash for it is another matter entirely, but VR is no longer "only for rich high tech geeks".

I just realized - between the (upcoming) PS5, PS-VR and existing PS4, Sony has a really nice strategy for their games. From a development perspective, make the 8k version for the PS5, down-scale it for VR and sell that as the PS4 version.

As for 8k TVs ... if manufacturing costs drop, I see no reason why adoption wouldn't pick up. It only feels like last year when I was thinking to myself that 1080p was overkill. Today? It's just not worth buying a monitor at a lower resolution.

-chronodekar
 

Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin
ftr, this is beat saber:

It's basically lightsaber DDR in VR, and if that doesn't sound cool as hell to you, you're dead inside.
 
I was thinking more in terms of screen adoption rates, and the fact that even high end cards struggle with 4k in some games. 8k at playable frame rates and details is pretty rare. Toss in no 8k TV, streaming or Blueray content and it's a solution in need of content.

I don't expect any console support of note in the next ten years. Maybe some fancy tech demos and low asset games, but that's really it.

8k VR will look amazing, but it has the same issue. Not a whole lot out that could drive the screens at the required frame rates.
8k VR exists now. Pimax makes an 8k VR HMD.

It requires a high end GPU, but runs games at 8k. I've seen it running Elite Dangerous, Assetto Corsa, Skyrim VR, Beat Saber, and Star Trek Bridge Crew at 90+FPS, which is required for comfortable VR. Those are not low asset games.

I saw this at a local trade show at a demo booth a couple of months ago just for full disclosure. They were using a 1080 Ti and recommend at least that much.

The 8k Pimax actually starts shipping tomorrow. I'm not getting one, at least not yet. I want to see how this gen of hardware shakes out before I upgrade.

It's not cheap, but not prohibitively expensive. Only slightly more than Vive was when it first came out at $899.

It's consumer level tech that exists right now and is within a middle class hobbyist's budget at less than a thousand bucks assuming you already have a PC with the specs for it.

I'll be surprised if the PS5 doesn't have some sort of VR support. Probably not at launch, but they'll have something better than PSVR slated for after launch.

Nintendo is also dipping its toes into VR waters with the Switch and Labo. According to the dev it was part of the plan from the start.

At any rate, 8k is already a thing. Both for monitors and VR. It's just new and doesn't have a ton of content yet, but it's already here and support is in the pipeline.
 
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ftr, this is beat saber:

It's basically lightsaber DDR in VR, and if that doesn't sound cool as hell to you, you're dead inside.
This.

It's a cross between DDR and Guitar Hero/Rock Band with lightsabers.

It is every bit as awesome as it sounds. I've lost 15 lbs and a belt size because of this game.
 
I had to look up the Superhot thing. According to;
https://www.pcgamesn.com/superhot-vr/superhot-vr-sales

Superhot VR made more _revenue_ than non-VR. And if I'm reading correctly, the VR only title had a combined sales of 800k across all platforms. That's not "millions" of sales in VR, but most certainly within a stone throw's distance.

Looking at other games,
Beat Saber (the title reminds me of Fate Stay Night, but I have no idea what the game is about) from EA sold over 1 million copies.
https://www.roadtovr.com/beat-saber-sells-one-million-copies/

Don't have official numbers for Skyrim, Fallout4 or Doom VR, but Bethesda seems to be happy with them.
https://uploadvr.com/bethesda-skyrim-vr-fallout-doom-sold-well/
And according to UNofficial sources, Skyrim sold about 1 million copies.

As for install base, Sony says they sold 4.2 million headsets.
https://www.engadget.com/2019/03/26/sony-4-2-million-playstation-vr-headset-sales/

In broad strokes, you're right @Contrabardus . VR as a medium is most certainly here. Now, whether I'll personally put down cash for it is another matter entirely, but VR is no longer "only for rich high tech geeks".

I just realized - between the (upcoming) PS5, PS-VR and existing PS4, Sony has a really nice strategy for their games. From a development perspective, make the 8k version for the PS5, down-scale it for VR and sell that as the PS4 version.

As for 8k TVs ... if manufacturing costs drop, I see no reason why adoption wouldn't pick up. It only feels like last year when I was thinking to myself that 1080p was overkill. Today? It's just not worth buying a monitor at a lower resolution.

-chronodekar

Sure. I see nothing to argue with here.

Well, one minor point. Superhot has no microtransactions or DLC. To my knowledge it has also always been the same price or cheaper than the non-VR version of Superhot. So if it made more revenue, it's most likely because it sold more copies. This is the reasoning behind the statement in my previous post regarding it having sold more.

[Also, Superhot in VR is amazing. Just sayin'.]

I was intentionally painting in broad strokes regarding VR in the market. Most VR titles do not sell millions of copies. It's just now getting to the point where some do and is becoming more common. This suggests a sizable and growing install base. I cited it as an example of where the market is going and that it seems to be establishing itself as more than just a passing fad, as some attempts at marketing VR in the past have been.

It's looking more like the early days of Blu-ray, and less like 3D TVs at this point. VR has basically established itself and is now growing beyond enthusiasts to more casual users, even though it hasn't become fully mainstream either.

If you own VR you should own Skyrim and Beat Saber.

It doesn't matter how much you've played Skyrim before, you should buy it again [on sale]. It is not the same experience as playing on a monitor, and the vast majority of Special Edition Mods work with Skyrim VR. Bows and magic are way more fun in VR.

In fact, having played it before may actually be a good reason to buy it again. It lets you really understand the difference between VR and a standard monitor. Those spiders are suddenly a lot scarier when they actually look six feet wide and four feet tall, and standing at the feet of the statue of Azura is not the same experience it was when you were just looking at it on a monitor.

Fallout 4 VR sucks. Don't waste your money unless you are a massive fan of the game and absolutely must see it in VR. None of the DLC is supported, though you can mod it in, but it doesn't all work and some of it can't be completed. It's not bad, but is more a demo test. You can see how they were using it to figure out VR and how the lessons learned were applied to Skyrim.

Beat Saber is the game you pull out to show people who don't play video games what VR is so they can instantly understand it. There are also some demo stuff on Steam that works well for this, such as Valve's The Lab or Nvidia's Funhouse.

Also, Serious Sam is the shooter to own in VR, not Doom VFR. It's hands down the best VR conversion I've ever seen. Croteam went out of their way to do it right and it shows. There are tons of options to make it as comfortable and fun to play as possible.

There is Doom worth playing in VR, but it's not Bethesda's VR thing. It's a free mod for Doom 3 BFG Edition called Fully Possessed. Doom 3 is a way better game in VR.

Seriously, Doom 3: Fully Possessed is well worth checking out even if you didn't care for it on a standard monitor. All the things that worked against the original release of Doom 3 kind of work in its favor as a VR game. The slower pace, use of lighting, and haunted house shooting gallery style gameplay are perfect for VR.

To a lesser extent GZ3Doom for Doom and Doom 2 once you get used to VR. GZ3Doom can be uncomfortable for people new to VR. It's worth trying, but you may want to get your VR legs before you seriously get into it. Even with the dated sprite based graphics, facing down a Cyberdemon is a lot more intimidating when it actually looks fifteen feet tall.
 
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Double Post.

I really hate where the reply button is on this site. It's exactly where the edit button is on a lot of other places.
 

Antimatter

Well-Known Member
8k VR exists now. Pimax makes an 8k VR HMD.

It requires a high end GPU, but runs games at 8k. I've seen it running Elite Dangerous, Assetto Corsa, Skyrim VR, Beat Saber, and Star Trek Bridge Crew at 90+FPS, which is required for comfortable VR. Those are not low asset games.

I saw this at a local trade show at a demo booth a couple of months ago just for full disclosure. They were using a 1080 Ti and recommend at least that much.

The 8k Pimax actually starts shipping tomorrow. I'm not getting one, at least not yet. I want to see how this gen of hardware shakes out before I upgrade.

It's not cheap, but not prohibitively expensive. Only slightly more than Vive was when it first came out at $899.

It's consumer level tech that exists right now and is within a middle class hobbyist's budget at less than a thousand bucks assuming you already have a PC with the specs for it.

I'll be surprised if the PS5 doesn't have some sort of VR support. Probably not at launch, but they'll have something better than PSVR slated for after launch.

Nintendo is also dipping its toes into VR waters with the Switch and Labo. According to the dev it was part of the plan from the start.

At any rate, 8k is already a thing. Both for monitors and VR. It's just new and doesn't have a ton of content yet, but it's already here and support is in the pipeline.

Sony already announced the PSVR is forward comparable. I suspect they have a PSVR 2 in the works though, with eye tracking and a higher resolution screen. Sony had demoed their eye tracking tech years back.

The pimax sounds interesting, but $900 for just the headset which isn't even running at native, has no base station or controllers, and only at 80hz isn't that appearing. The verge article I found about it said the 8k chokes even on a 2080.
 
Sony already announced the PSVR is forward comparable. I suspect they have a PSVR 2 in the works though, with eye tracking and a higher resolution screen. Sony had demoed their eye tracking tech years back.

The pimax sounds interesting, but $900 for just the headset which isn't even running at native, has no base station or controllers, and only at 80hz isn't that appearing. The verge article I found about it said the 8k chokes even on a 2080.
I saw it at a tech demo thing at a local trade show, so it was probably optimized for the best possible performance. That's why I mentioned that in my previous post. It was running on a 1080 Ti.

I suspect it's really for the next round of GPUs, which will be able to handle it for most games.

That's kind of the thing about a $900 HMD that's just the headset. The market for that at this point are the same people who upgrade their GPUs every cycle or two.

I wouldn't recommend buying one unless you're that type of person.

My point is that it exists, and there is support for it. It's just brand new is all and other things haven't "caught up" yet. It isn't going to take a generation or two to catch up, probably just a few months for those who stay on the bleeding edge. After that it will gradually move to less and less hardcore markets.

I would also point out that in the case of VR, you don't necessarily need to run 8k graphics on an 8k screen. Part of the reason for the really high resolution screens is to reduce the screen door effect and get more fine detail to display. There's also the FOV factor at play here, which is essentially a super widescreen display. You can get that with 4k graphics on an 8k screen.

Part of the reason I brought up VR is because making the tech small enough for VR will actually reduce the cost of doing it on a larger scale. Half the expense of new tech is getting it small and cheap enough for consumer use. Development for super high rez screens for Phones and VR are essentially skipping a step, which makes making it bigger for use in monitors that much cheaper.

Phones were a huge factor in why 4k happened so quickly. They'll contribute to 8k as well, but for that level of tech you see 8k more in VR than Phones so far, which is why I mentioned it first. The quest to eliminate the screen door effect without sacrificing image sharpness in VR is really pushing small displays right now.

For anyone looking into getting into VR in the near future, they should first be looking into getting their PC upgraded to be able to handle any type of VR. Beyond that, they should be looking into the next generations of Vive, Oculus, and Windows Mixed Reality [Particularly the Odyssey+].

Casual consumers who don't want to invest in a PC build for it should be looking at PSVR.

The Switch thing is basically a slightly upgraded Google Cardboard. You also have to hold it up to your face like a viewmaster. Great for kids, not really a good way to get into VR for anyone else.

Mobile VR is kind of weak. Quest was built for it, but it's still basically using phone hardware, and that will impact what can be done with it. It is not a replacement for PC or Console based VR.

I think the endgame of this will be VR that is a hybrid of mobile VR and PC or console based VR. It's really a matter of getting the streaming tech to keep up without lag. That will require having some of the processing occur in the HMD, while having a lot of the heavy lifting computing done PC side and having it transfer wirelessly to the device.

This is where we start getting into "next gen" for VR I think.
 
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Antimatter

Well-Known Member
I think eye tracking tech will help things in the long run. With great tracking one can get away with only rendering 5% of the picture at full resolution/effects, which dramatically reduces power requirements.
 
I think eye tracking tech will help things in the long run. With great tracking one can get away with only rendering 5% of the picture at full resolution/effects, which dramatically reduces power requirements.
I've seen some talks about it. Boring stuff for anyone onto into tech, but that was basically the gist of it.

The biggest downside is that it needs more CPU power, but not a huge amount. It's a lot of math and processing to keep up with an eye's natural movement. It's a lot more complicated than it sounds.

It also needs a big FOV to work properly.

From what I've heard, it's probably going to actually be more like 10%, at least at first, to give the processor time to keep up with quick eye movements without lag. A sort of buffer zone for the render so it can keep up.

That's still a huge benefit to the GPU load.

Eye tracking works now, but still has difficulty keeping up with more frantic types of games like shooters and action games. I think they mostly have it figured out, but just need to iron out the kinks more than anything else.

Wireless VR already exists, you can get it for the Vive. It's still not really consumer ready yet though, and it's expensive. Latency is still an issue with the current wireless Vive tech, and they absolutely have to fix that.

Still, it is proof of concept, which it is really all it is supposed to be.

This is what I mean by wireless probably being the real "next gen" of VR. The groundwork is there, but the tech still needs work to reduce latency, needs to be cheaper to manufacture, and honestly needs to be standardized across the industry for a variety of reasons, not the least of which is to streamline software development.

8k is already here, but eye tracking honestly means that 5k with some smoothing tech is probably good enough to effectively get rid of screen door and keep manufacture costs down to make it a viable retail product for casual use. This will mean a slightly less sharp image, but no screen door and wireless together at a reasonable price point will be that holy grail to make it attractive for the average consumer and getting the image sharper can be a focus after that.

The Pimax 8k still has a very slight screen door effect, but the Odyssey+ and Pimax 5k have effectively eliminated it.


Now, I know some will say that the "Odyssey and Pimax 5k both look better", however, I would point out the shots of Elite Dangerous in the video starting at 5:00. You can see the difference in sharpness 8k makes by looking at the text in the images shown. The smoother effect the other two HMDs manage is because they reduce the image sharpness slightly to blur the screen door out of the image. You can actually see a lot more detail with the 8k.

Near zero latency wireless is essential though. That's the tough nut they are focusing on right now from what I can tell. They have the screen figured out. I think that's the thing that will put VR into the mainstream.

On an unrelated note, I always have an immature chuckle over the fact that Elite Dangerous is frequently called "E-D" by its fanbase.
 
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Antimatter

Well-Known Member

Bloodstained release date trailer. Out June 18th for pc/ps4/Xb1, june 25th for Switch.
 
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Shirotsume

Not The Goddamn @dmin

Ordo

Well-Known Member
 

da_fox2279

California Crackpot
The annual Steam Summer sale is reported to start 6/25.
 

Antimatter

Well-Known Member
So apparently Bestbuy has a sweet bloodstained steelbook they are offering as a preorder incentive.

Also 505 decided to offer the Iga boss and sword-whip as $10 dlc, with backers getting it free.

The backers are losing their shit. 505 managed to get some of BB's spare cases to sell, but some backers are crying foul claiming we should have gotten such sweet cases or 505 should give all backers over $XX a steelcase or how dare they offer our 'exclusive' in game boss as DLC!


I'm loving it. The case is nice but doesn't effect me, it was never promised as a backer reward and is something that BB requested. They originally wanted in game content but 505 said no.
 

sikle

Well-Known Member
If you want to quote Polygon, go ahead. Thing is, backers were asked in a survey if they were okay with that stuff going DLC and the majority said yes. Though it's true that some are feeling kind of salty over the steelcase.

Edited to clarify source was Polygon, not Kotaku.
 
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Antimatter

Well-Known Member
Yeah, but the 'zomg contract breach!" salty folks claim that since the survey wasn't limited to only 60$ tiers or above and only to backers it's invalid.

You should see the kickstarter comments, they are a trip. Handful of winers trying to claim lawsuit this and 'game sucks now' that. The majority are too busy drolling over the game and eager to play to really care.
 
Yeah, but the 'zomg contract breach!" salty folks claim that since the survey wasn't limited to only 60$ tiers or above and only to backers it's invalid.

You should see the kickstarter comments, they are a trip. Handful of winers trying to claim lawsuit this and 'game sucks now' that. The majority are too busy drolling over the game and eager to play to really care.
I hate idiots like that. I'd get it if they weren't getting the thing and it was taken away or discontinued after being promised.

This is just stupid. They're getting exactly what they were promised, well to within a reasonable degree of it at least, and aren't happy because other people are able to access it some other way. It's not even like they are getting it for free like backers are.



However, most of the complaints are actually about the release date and shipping issues, not because other people are getting stuff they get to have.

There are new issues over international release dates in certain regions, and people are bitching about that. Japan in particular is having release issues.

It's not clear why exactly, just some nebulous "logistical difficulties".

They're giving away Steam keys to those people so they can play at launch, but not everyone has a PC and access to Steam.

I do understand being annoyed by this and that it can be frustrating, but it's not anything new regarding international releases. Though, the Japan thing does seem a bit odd in this case and isn't explained well enough. I'm wondering if it might have to do with some government red tape or maybe a censorship issue they weren't expecting.

Anyone who seriously thinks they have a case in court over any of this is an idiot though. They'd have to show bad faith and/or some sort of loss on their part, and there's none of that here.
 
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Antimatter

Well-Known Member
International shipping, key generation, etc can be a real bitch to be honest. I can't blame them for delays there.

As for the keys, steam lets you generate as many as you want, while consoles require sony/MS/nintendo to do it, iirc. Due to key issues I ended up with three copies of 1/2 Genie hero for example. Wayforward just kept giving us ps4 owners steam keys which never deactivated.
 

autobot314

Well-Known Member
So, THQ Nordic is doing 3 days of announcements. The first one is a remaster of Spongebob Squarepants: Battle for Bikini Bottom for all systems, with local multiplayer. If anyone remembers it, it's actually a REALLY good platformer. They're even adding cut content like the Robo Squidward fight.
Steam page.
 
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Karnath

Well-Known Member
The Legend of Heroes Trails of Cold Steel 3 has received a release date of September 24 2019 in North America.
 
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