Nasuverse Gate of Babylon

[Antiguo]

Mainly here is a question it have been bothering me since the visual novel/ movie of Unlimited Blade work .

According to the wikia, Unlimited Blade Works produce faulty copies about one rank lower than Gilgamesh Gate Of Babylon but faster than him, which allowed EmiyGAR to defeat his firing ratio, enrage him and "force" him to use Ea, giving Emiya the opening he was looking and defeat him.

My question is: if the copies from UBW are weaker, how can they stop the originals?. GoB has the strongest versions of all the Noble Phantasm, those whom one day would become the legends and who are deemed greater (by right of being older) even than the ones used by the legendary heroes and while Emiya define both of them as only "owners", why would hitting the originals with a suparb copies destroy them?

I get that they would be somewhat damaged, slowed down or throw out of course, but the animation show both hitting and pulverizing themselves over and over again? As if where two equally opossing forces meeting in the battleground, which contradict both Emiya and Nasu-verse explanations.

In fact, by thaumaturgic logic, shouldn't GoB still win against UBW by having the attacks pulverize his Reality Marble creations and still damage him? Or at least avoiding giving Emiya the upperhand, since he is using less powerful and with less strenght (one single shot can stop Berseker sword swing with ease) armament in the Noble phantasm arm race confrontation regardless of how fast he can produce them. I know Nasu works are more about character than laws, but still....

 

[Ryuugi]

The Ranking of a NP only really matters when talking about or comparing effects.

However, when Archer or Shirou makes a weapon, even if it's effect is weaker, it is physically identical in every way. It's made out of the exact same materials, constructed in the exact same way, etc. It is then hurled at pretty much the exact same speed.

If they had fought with effects, it might have been a different story, but this was pure mass times acceleration.

 

[ttestagr]

Ryuugi, Gilgamesh's weapons automatically have their effect active. Aside from Ea, he never says the name of a single one in order to get the effect.

Anyway even though Shirou and Archer's copies are one rank down, they still do the same exact thing in the same exact way. By the standards of the verse, that makes them perfect copies. That is all that matters. Rank only comes in to play when generally describing how powerful certain things are or Godhand. Godhand being the only thing that it explicitly matters for.

Note that we see this in a number of cases, lower rank things defeating higher because the effect trumps them. Mostly in Ataraxia though, which is why it isn't as well known. A-rank Fragarach defeating A++ Excalibur. Or B Gae Bolg matching and double KOing A-rank Fragarach. In the original VN, you have Rho Aius successfully defending against Ea.

So when the effect is the same, even though one is lower rank, both negate the other.

 

[Ryuugi]

Ryuugi, Gilgamesh's weapons automatically have their effect active. Aside from Ea, he never says the name of a single one in order to get the effect.

He doesn't say the name, but their effects aren't always active. He just doesn't have to say their names to turn them on. See Ea, Gungnir, that lightning bolt thing, etc.

Anyway even though Shirou and Archer's copies are one rank down, they still do the same exact thing in the same exact way. By the standards of the verse, that makes them perfect copies. That is all that matters. Rank only comes in to play when generally describing how powerful certain things are or Godhand. Godhand being the only thing that it explicitly matters for.

We know for a fact that's not true. Changes in rank have come with increases in power whenever they've happened. See Archer's BPs for the biggest example. Fragarach's lower ranked version was also flat-out stated to be weaker, in addition to losing it's main effect.

Note that we see this in a number of cases, lower rank things defeating higher because the effect trumps them. Mostly in Ataraxia though, which is why it isn't as well known. A-rank Fragarach defeating A++ Excalibur. Or B Gae Bolg matching and double KOing A-rank Fragarach. In the original VN, you have Rho Aius successfully defending against Ea.

That was due to the ways those specific NPs worked, though. Fragarach beat Excalibur, but not due to power; it won because it's ability allowed it to travel back in time and keep Excalibur from happening in the first place. Gae Bolg didn't so much match Fragarach as it continued to work.

So when the effect is the same, even though one is lower rank, both negate the other.

The Bridge scene flat-out proved that wasn't true. Shirou used Caliburn's effect in an attempt to counter Gram/Merodach and it got crushed instantly.

 

[Horseman]

The Bridge scene flat-out proved that wasn't true. Shirou used Caliburn's effect in an attempt to counter Gram/Merodach and it got crushed instantly.

Thats because Gram is better then Caliburn being what Caliburnis modeled after

 

[Avider]

That's not necessarily true, as Lancer's Gae Bolg surpassed Gugnir's even though the former is based on the latter.

It's more of Progenitor > Descendant

 

[Ryuugi]

The Bridge scene flat-out proved that wasn't true. Shirou used Caliburn's effect in an attempt to counter Gram/Merodach and it got crushed instantly.

Thats because Gram is better then Caliburn being what Caliburnis modeled after

Which is represented by having a higher rank, as seen with Gungnir.

That's not necessarily true, as Lancer's Gae Bolg surpassed Gugnir's even though the former is based on the latter.

It's more of Progenitor > Descendant

Though that could be because Gae Bolg is based on two weapons. It's important to remember that Archer commented on the thrown version of Gae Bolg, while Gungnir is the progenitor of the Stabbing version.

In that regard, Gae Bolg far surpassed Gungnir, because Gungnir can't do that explosive throw at all (that's Brionac's gig). However, it was proven that Gungnir had a higher rank then Gae Bolg when it pierced God Hand.

 

[Avider]

In that regard, Gae Bolg far surpassed Gungnir, because Gungnir can't do that explosive throw at all (that's Brionac's gig).

No, it was because Gae Bolg had greater power than Gungnir, the matter of throwing explosion or not is irrelevant, because Archer was directly comparing the two in terms of power.


In anycase, I don't see why you would mention the rank at all, considering that's irrelevant to the matter at hand. So what if Gugnir is higher in rank? That doesn't mean it's greater in power, which is the crux of this matter.

 

[Ryuugi]

In that regard, Gae Bolg far surpassed Gungnir, because Gungnir can't do that explosive throw at all (that's Brionac's gig).

No, it was because Gae Bolg had greater power than Gungnir, the matter of throwing explosion or not is irrelevant, because Archer was directly comparing the two in terms of power.


In anycase, I don't see why you would mention the rank at all, considering that's irrelevant to the matter at hand. So what if Gugnir is higher in rank? That doesn't mean it's greater in power, which is the crux of this matter.

Oh. My bad; thought we were talking about something else.

In that yes, Gae Bolg is definitely more powerful then Gungnir. Extreme accuracy aside, Gungnir's not gonna be blowing up no military cohorts.

However, it's a bit unfair to compare the offensive power of a weapon whose main effect is accuracy to one with the ability to explode.

 

[SilverBack354]

I'm just gonna put this on Shirou tapping into True HS EMIYA who's UBW get the added effect from his line in the Fate route about making a fake that surpasses the original. You know it could just also be that Shirou can always make them surpass the originals in power and ability but only for a single strike and then they shatter(like a BP but only with his image of the object not the object itself) but with UBW active he would have a endless supply of copies so Gil would still be screwed.

 

[Avider]

In that regard, Gae Bolg far surpassed Gungnir, because Gungnir can't do that explosive throw at all (that's Brionac's gig).

No, it was because Gae Bolg had greater power than Gungnir, the matter of throwing explosion or not is irrelevant, because Archer was directly comparing the two in terms of power.


In anycase, I don't see why you would mention the rank at all, considering that's irrelevant to the matter at hand. So what if Gugnir is higher in rank? That doesn't mean it's greater in power, which is the crux of this matter.

Oh. My bad; thought we were talking about something else.

In that yes, Gae Bolg is definitely more powerful then Gungnir. Extreme accuracy aside, Gungnir's not gonna be blowing up no military cohorts.

However, it's a bit unfair to compare the offensive power of a weapon whose main effect is accuracy to one with the ability to explode.

Hey, blame Archer for making that comparison, and anyways we don't really know how powerful Gungnir is. Sure, its effect might be to always hit its target...but maybe it's also really really powerful.

Just not as powerful as Gae Bolg.

I'm just gonna put this on Shirou tapping into True HS EMIYA who's UBW get the added effect from his line in the Fate route about making a fake that surpasses the original. You know it could just also be that Shirou can always make them surpass the originals in power and ability but only for a single strike and then they shatter(like a BP but only with his image of the object not the object itself) but with UBW active he would have a endless supply of copies so Gil would still be screwed.

Is this suppose to tie in with our discussions?

Because our discussion is about derivatives, not copies. Father -> Son, not, Original -> Clone.

 

[ttestagr]

Gugnir as a heart stabbing weapon should only be compared to Gae Bolg's thrust. As was said, the throw is based off another weapon. One that specifically trades accurace (which is Gae Bolg's other function and Gugnir's thing) for power. So which is more accurate? From what I remember, as good as it is, Gae Bolg doesn't heart stab as well.

Also, Broken Phantasms up rank by one, but that is entirely secondary to being explosive on contact. We see one instance of a Broken Phantasm in F/SN (Caladbolg 2 against Berserker.) It was less effective against him than a regular version was against Caster. Which deserves mentioning, since one of her spells actually gives her protection equal to Herk's skin.

We see more Broken Phantasms in Ataraxia, but again, no real upgrade in their abilities despite the rank increase. Except that the act of making them broken also makes them explosive.

 

[Avider]

Gugnir as a heart stabbing weapon should only be compared to Gae Bolg's thrust.

It's a good thing Archer compared it as a power weapon to Gae Bolg throw eh?

Also, Broken Phantasms up rank by one, but that is entirely secondary to being explosive on contact. We see one instance of a Broken Phantasm in F/SN (Caladbolg 2 against Berserker.) It was less effective against him than a regular version was against Caster. Which deserves mentioning, since one of her spells actually gives her protection equal to Herk's skin.

We see more Broken Phantasms in Ataraxia, but again, no real upgrade in their abilities despite the rank increase. Except that the act of making them broken also makes them explosive.

What a completely ass-backward view.

The explosion is entirely a result of the fact that BP is literally the overcharging of the NPs with prana.

This raises the rank, but it also raises the attack. In fact, the two goes in conjunction.

 

[shioran toushin]

gungunir and Gae Bolg--- homing/accuracy
bironac-gae bolg---------- AoE

 

[Avider]

It's like you recapitulated what's been written twice over without actually reading what's been written.

That is amazing.

 

[shioran toushin]

to be honest i did write the response the day before, did not close the browser, put the pc on hibernate and didn't not reload the page before pressing the little post button, so yes i did not read a thing beyond
yout post on Jan 10 2012, 10:45 PM
call it a brain fart.

 

[SilverBack354]

About GOB vs God Hand what might be happening is that since Gil is the original owner of the weapons before they have the history that makes them NP then they are Conceptional Weapons instead and as such any one of his treasures from GOB that would make it as a C-rank NP or higher would be a A-rank CW or higher. That would explain so much about GOB vs GH.

 

[Avider]

...Wut.


Ok. How about this.

They're A-ranked NPs.

I know, shocking. I mean, we were all confused as to how GoB bypassed God Hand, but maybe this is it?!

 

[Prince Charon]

The answer is very simple:

LOLNasu.

That wasn't a joke, I'm serious.

 

[fuyu]

My question is: if the copies from UBW are weaker, how can they stop the originals?. GoB has the strongest versions of all the Noble Phantasm, those whom one day would become the legends and who are deemed greater (by right of being older) even than the ones used by the legendary heroes and while Emiya define both of them as only "owners", why would hitting the originals with a suparb copies destroy them?

Who ever said Shirou destroyed the weapons from GOB with his copies? Even if the copied sword broke, it would still be enough to deflect the original. Gil can only shoot every single phantasm once, Shirou is only limited by prana.

 

[ttestagr]

My question is: if the copies from UBW are weaker, how can they stop the originals?. GoB has the strongest versions of all the Noble Phantasm, those whom one day would become the legends and who are deemed greater (by right of being older) even than the ones used by the legendary heroes and while Emiya define both of them as only "owners", why would hitting the originals with a suparb copies destroy them?

Who ever said Shirou destroyed the weapons from GOB with his copies? Even if the copied sword broke, it would still be enough to deflect the original. Gil can only shoot every single phantasm once, Shirou is only limited by prana.

The actual visual novel states that Shirou's copies were outright destroying Gil's originals.

<a href='http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/234.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/234.html</a>

Read, be enlightened.

 

[fuyu]

My question is: if the copies from UBW are weaker, how can they stop the originals?. GoB has the strongest versions of all the Noble Phantasm, those whom one day would become the legends and who are deemed greater (by right of being older) even than the ones used by the legendary heroes and while Emiya define both of them as only "owners", why would hitting the originals with a suparb copies destroy them?

Who ever said Shirou destroyed the weapons from GOB with his copies? Even if the copied sword broke, it would still be enough to deflect the original. Gil can only shoot every single phantasm once, Shirou is only limited by prana.

The actual visual novel states that Shirou's copies were outright destroying Gil's originals.

<a href='http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/234.html' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>http://fsn.seorinwastaken.com/archive/234.html</a>

Read, be enlightened.

Thanks for providing! I've been trying to find that website everynow and again, I kept on forgetting to bookmark it everytime. XD