Harry Potter Harry Potter and the Cursed Child?

[da_fox2279]

I honestly wonder if maybe J.K. Rowling, even after she got big and popular, was still contractually obligated by Bloomsbury (her publisher) to spend lots of time with an editor who would discuss her plot elements, prose, symbolism, etc.

Then she finished her contract with Book 7 and her writing has descended into utter shit since she's an ultra-popular writer who doesn't need to listen to nobody and her new work is the Prequel Trilogy of the Harry Potter series.

You see it starts to decline in quality after the 5th book.

I honestly wonder how much of that was lack of plotting / writing to achieve the ending she had already planned out, and simple burnout / pressure to perform.

Honestly, the demand for and the popularity of the HP series was scary. I don't doubt she wanted to live up to the expectations of the fandom.

 

[Shirotsume]

She's outright stated that around book five she started shoehorning stuff in to make the story go where she wanted it.

 

[atlas_hugged]

I never saw too big of a quality decrease in the novels. I understand a lot of it is ship related, so maybe that's why. I didn't care about shipping at all (though if you didn't see hermoine/ron becoming canon, I don't know what to tell you. It was obvious from book 3 or 4 on. Whichever one involved harry acting as the go between because of their winter long fight).

The ginny/harry thing was a bit forced though, I will admit that.

 

[Stormfury]

More then a bit.

It came out of left field and made zero sense.

Also the zero foreshadowing of deathly hallows was painful too. That shit should have been in book 1, perhaps as an incomplete story that didn't actually include the fact that the way the middle brother hid was through a cloak.

 

[LORD_ARM]

More then a bit.

It came out of left field and made zero sense.

Also the zero foreshadowing of deathly hallows was painful too.  That shit should have been in book 1, perhaps as an incomplete story that didn't actually include the fact that the way the middle brother hid was through a cloak.

My thoughts exactly.  With all the talk about love potion in 6th book, I thought the whole Harry/Ginny thing was the Ginny slip some love potion to Harry. It turns out it wasn't, it's was just bad writing.  As for Hermoine/Ron, I think  that was more wish fulfillment on JK Rowling part.  She has said that Hermoine was more like herself then Harry was and Ron was based off a friend of hers. So they might be some unresolved issues she's trying to work out.  [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]  [/font]

 

[goldenarms]

More then a bit.

It came out of left field and made zero sense.

:sisi:

I remember reading book 6 and thinking, "The hell?" like someone took over Harry's brain and he was suddenly all possessive of Ginny like he never had been ever thought of another girl before. I think the worst part of it came out when Harry used the lucky potion and had "accidentally" bumped into Ginny while under the invisible cloak, which ended up causing her and whoever she was dating at the time to break up violently like days later or something -- it's been a while since I read the books.

 

[jaredstar]

there is a reason why i disregard anything after book 5

honestly i read the first 5 dozens of times each i only read the 6th book once and i have never so much as touched book 7

 

[lord geryon]

My view of the series is a little different; it went to shit at some point early in the 4th book. Harry stopped DOING and was reduced to REACTING.

The first 3 books painted a picture of a Harry Potter that was brave to the point of recklessness, possessed rare gifts(being a parselmouth), and was something of a magical prodigy(patronus charm). But that all disappeared in the 4th book. Suddenly, he couldn't really do anything without someone else telling him what to do.

The 5th book and beyond just reinforced that view. It's all shitty from that point on.

I blame Rowling's shitilogue for it. She didn't let the story develop naturally, nor did she plot the thing from the start. She let the story have its own way for a few books, then start yanking at the reins trying to steer it the way she wanted it to go, and fucked up the whole thing.

 

[Shirotsume]

More then a bit.

It came out of left field and made zero sense.

Also the zero foreshadowing of deathly hallows was painful too.  That shit should have been in book 1, perhaps as an incomplete story that didn't actually include the fact that the way the middle brother hid was through a cloak.

My thoughts exactly.  With all the talk about love potion in 6th book, I thought the whole Harry/Ginny thing was the Ginny slip some love potion to Harry. It turns out it wasn't, it's was just bad writing.  As for Hermoine/Ron, I think  that was more wish fulfillment on JK Rowling part.  She has said that Hermoine was more like herself then Harry was and Ron was based off a friend of hers. So they might be some unresolved issues she's trying to work out.  [font=Tahoma, Verdana, Arial, sans-serif]  [/font]

She said the entire trio were based on parts of her, but that she identified the most with Hermione. Then she said some bullshit about her husband being a goofy jokester and that it seemed more right to her than the 'hero gets the girl.'

She seems to have forgotten that Fred and George were the awesome funny jokesters, and Ron was... Ron.

 

[OniGanon]

On topic: why does anyone care that the actress playing Hermione is black?  I can't recall anything in the books saying she's not.  The only things that come to mind about the races of any character are the Patils, Chang, and Dean Thomas and Kingsley specifically being mentioned as black.

It's pretty obvious Hermione is canonically white. The books tend to mention it when someone isn't. Moreover, Rowling was pretty involved in the movie castings, and we got Emma Watson as Hermione.

That being said, it's not a canon piece. It's basically a glorified fanfic. So if they want to be a smartarse and cast Hermione as black just because the books technically don't say she isn't, then whatever. Go for it. Fuck it, why stop there? The books technically never say that Luna Lovegood isn't a Lizardperson from the planet Thesssra. Go wild.

 

[goldenarms]

On topic: why does anyone care that the actress playing Hermione is black?  I can't recall anything in the books saying she's not.  The only things that come to mind about the races of any character are the Patils, Chang, and Dean Thomas and Kingsley specifically being mentioned as black.

When I thought this was an actual movie and continuation of the original story, yeah, it kind of did, like changing Aunt Bev mid-series. Learning that it's a stage play, though, and it's a "not so much." Having done plays in high school, and being part of theatre, talent tends to overshadow a particular look, unless the look is overly key to the production.

 

[Rising Dragon]

I'm sure there's just as many talented mousy-looking white women in theater, too, but you know deep down that's not why they picked a black woman for the role over any of those hypothetical girls.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

I don't (and I get the impression that most of the people who have posted in this thread don't either) really give a damn about them casting a black actress as Hermione. While there are points in the book where Hermione is implied to be Caucasian (at one point saying that her face had gone "white with shock," IIRC,) being Caucasian isn't an integral part of Hermione's character. I mean, in the UK edition there is no particular description of Dean Thomas (it's only in the US edition that he's described as a black Londoner,) but seeing Alfie Enoch playing him in the films didn't evoke any negative reaction from me at all. It's not like Dean (or Hermione) adhered to some some bizarre racial stereotype.

What does bother me is the possibility that they specifically chose to cast Noma Dumezweni, not because she's an excellent actress who's won an Olivier Award, but because the colour of her skin would cause controversy and bring more publicity to the production. That just leaves a sour taste in my mouth.



Actually, this kinds of makes me think of an episode of a short-lived sitcom called "Ed," starring Tom Cavanagh (J.D from Scrubs's brother.) The episode in question had a guy who was running the school play being sued by a kids parents because he purposely refused to give the lead to their kid, due to him being black.

Sounds like an open and shut discrimination case, until you find out the play is about Abraham Lincoln, the American Civil War, and freeing the slaves.

Historical dramas, and media where race is an integral part of the plot, are the only occasions where skin colour should be a factor in casting choices. Casting a black person as Abraham Lincoln strays far too close, IMO, to censoring history to attempt to minimise or play down the historical wrong-doings that did occur, and should be remembered (if not obsessed over as some do.)

But when it's not? Then it shouldn't matter. It's like, when there was all that controversy about Michael B Jordan playing Johnny Storm in last year's Fantastic Four movie. The only way it would have been a problem for me is if the character he played wasn't recognisably Johnny Storm (and, you know, if the movie sucked, which it did.)

 

[Yorae Rasante]

My problem with a black person playing Johnny Storm is that at the same time it was a white one that played Susan. I could accept both being black, I could accept both being white, I could accept one of them being mixed due to being half-siblings, but instead they made her be adopted to fix the plothole.

...Also the movie sucked.

 

[atlas_hugged]

My problem with a black person playing Johnny Storm is that at the same time it was a white one that played Susan. I could accept both being black, I could accept both being white, I could accept one of them being mixed due to being half-siblings, but instead they made her be adopted to fix the plothole.

...Also the movie sucked.

Why do you have a problem with adoption?

More specifically, why do you have a problem with adoption in a thread ostensibly about Harry Potter, a protagonist that is adopted?

 

[Yorae Rasante]

I don't have a problem with adoption. I have a problem with this instance of adoption.
The adoption was clearly an excuse. It wasn't relevant to the plot, I don't even remember if it was ever addressed in the movie itself. They just did it to be able to have black Johnny and papa Storm yet keep Susan white.

Harry Potter, on the other hand, the adoption is part of the plot. The world of magic is so attractive despite its faults because to Harry the other option is being treated badly in the hands of his adopted family. Even the villain had the fact he lived in an orphanage as the reason he was so obsessed with the school (not magic, magic was a source of power for him).
Actually... none of them are positive examples... I personally think that Harry Potter should have had someone that was adopted but treated well, just to contrast the other two.

 

[atlas_hugged]

I don't have a problem with adoption. I have a problem with this instance of adoption.
The adoption was clearly an excuse. It wasn't relevant to the plot, I don't even remember if it was ever addressed in the movie itself. They just did it to be able to have black Johnny and papa Storm yet keep Susan white.

Harry Potter, on the other hand, the adoption is part of the plot. The world of magic is so attractive despite its faults because to Harry the other option is being treated badly in the hands of his adopted family. Even the villain had the fact he lived in an orphanage as the reason he was so obsessed with the school (not magic, magic was a source of power for him).
Actually... none of them are positive examples... I personally think that Harry Potter should have had someone that was adopted but treated well, just to contrast the other two.

Why on earth would the adoption have to be relevant to the plot?  They chose a black actor and a white actress, for whatever reasons.  Adoption makes that make sense.  That seems like a pretty reasonable use of the idea of adoption. 

The movie sucked, but that's mostly related to it be a movie about the worst group of heroes in Marvel than the race of the actors or the justifications for an interracial family.

 

[Yorae Rasante]

Oh, I didn't say the movie sucked because of that. The story and horrible pacing are the main responsible in my opinion.

And you are right, it is a reasonable explanation... BUT, since their different origin or skin color has no relevance to the story of the movie, there are two possible reasons it was needed:
1- They wanted a token black character but since Reed is the lead, Ben is transformed and Susan is the token female, Johnny was the one chosen. They couldn't make Susan also be black too because it wouldn't bring as much audience.
2- They tried to do the same as Hermione in Cursed Child: bring attention through controversy.
Both reasons are reprehensible, and they are not mutually exclusive.

 

[atlas_hugged]

Oh, I didn't say the movie sucked because of that. The story and horrible pacing are the main responsible in my opinion.

And you are right, it is a reasonable explanation... BUT, since their different origin or skin color has no relevance to the story of the movie, there are two possible reasons it was needed:
1- They wanted a token black character but since Reed is the lead, Ben is transformed and Susan is the token female, Johnny was the one chosen. They couldn't make Susan also be black too because it wouldn't bring as much audience.
2- They tried to do the same as Hermione in Cursed Child: bring attention through controversy.
Both reasons are reprehensible, and they are not mutually exclusive.

There is a third possible reason: After all the actors that were interested auditioned for the parts, they selected the three best actors, and 2 were black.

 

[Rising Dragon]

It'd be nice and all if that were the case, but during this period of political correctness gone insane, with crap like "oscars so white" going on, with companies being made to submit over perceived slights about imaginary characters, do you really, truly believe that to be the case?

You saw Fantastic Four and how fucking awful it was, and how it was clear that they used the casting to generate controversy because even they knew how awful the movie was. The same thing is happening in The Gunslinger--they're casting a black man in the lead despite knowing that it will completely fuck a future plotline (and you can't just flip the races for that plotline) no matter how good of an actor he is. And if there's any semblance of truth in that leak for Cursed Child's plot, how can you be so certain that it's not the same thing happening yet again?

I'd like to believe it was a case of best choice for the role, and that may be so--but I'm not fucking kidding myself as to the real reason for the casting and neither should you.

 

[atlas_hugged]

It'd be nice and all if that were the case, but during this period of political correctness gone insane, with crap like "oscars so black" going on, with companies being made to submit over perceived slights about imaginary characters, do you really, truly believe that to be the case?

You saw Fantastic Four and how fucking awful it was, and how it was clear that they used the casting to generate controversy because even they knew how awful the movie was.  The same thing is happening in The Gunslinger--they're casting a black man in the lead despite knowing that it will completely fuck a future plotline (and you can't just flip the races for that plotline) no matter how good of an actor he is.  And if there's any semblance of truth in that leak for Cursed Child's plot, how can you be so certain that it's not the same thing happening yet again?

I'd like to believe it was a case of best choice for the role, and that may be so--but I'm not fucking kidding myself as to the real reason for the casting and neither should you.

I don't know one way or the other.  I think that it's equally likely either way.  Fantastic Four wasn't exactly a high powered super hero film.  People know the history of the franchise, and how boring it is. Actors may not have wanted to attach themselves to it.  Thus, being the best of the desperate bunch that actually auditioned isn't an achievement, but at the same time, they probably had a much higher density of people with no talent at all auditioning for the roles.

 

[zerohour]

The books technically never say that Luna Lovegood isn't a Lizardperson from the planet Thesssra. Go wild.

A story where Luna is the precursor to an alien invasion, and no one will believe it because she's just strange? I'd read it. Only question is who is the hero no one will believe?

 

[Rising Dragon]

The Creevey boy, of course.

 

[shiki]

Would work if he wasn't dead. Unless you are angling for a zombie fix.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Last I checked there's two of 'em.