Nasuverse Holy Grail

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#1
Okay. When he uses Unlimited Blade Works, Shirou/Archer can replicate stuff (weapons) perfectly. He can produce an exact duplicate: presumably the duplicate even has the same magical abilities as the original. He doesn't even have to specifically visualize the item, or know what it looks like; he can trace something from the idea.

So, what if Shirou traced the Holy Grail, a well of nigh-infinite magical power?

I see there being TWO discussions about this:

1) Can it happen? I.E., is it possible for Shirou to trace the Grail with UBW?

2) IF 1 == yes, then what would that mean? Like, when would he in the plot, what would that mean, the effects would be what, etc.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#2
Even if he had the power to do so, which he doesn't it isn't a weapon. And even if it can be classified as such it isn't a sword. Any weapon that Shirou or Archer creates that is not a blade is at least one level worse than the original.
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#3
I don't think the Holy Grail can be traced. It's an artifact of power that dwarfs even that of most Reality Marbles - the fact it can REPLICATE SHIROU'S OWN REALITY MARBLE in Archer should say it all.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#4
I dig what Zeebee's sayin'. If we wanna be clever we could say that Religion is the most dangerous weapon of all... anyway, if you weaponize something does it count? I agree that it might not have the same power as the original.

As for G-Heart, well... I dunno.

If we go into the mythology of it, then the Holy Grail is only magical because it was used to catch the blood of Christ when he was nailed to the Cross, right? So it's not an intrinsically magical item, it's more like it was infused with the power of Jesus... so would a fake Grail have the same "infused" nature?

Also, why should the Holy Grail being able to replicate the UBW for Archer say anything? It's magic... the logic and common sense of "mass and energy conservation" don't apply.

If the power of Servants comes from their famousness, and they exists as Spirits on the Throne of Heros, then all the Grail does is generate a piece of meat for a Servant to inhabit... using the Master as the conduit, right? I doubt that the Grail is the Throne, since it can summon folks that died over a thousand years before the Grail was even made.

Come to think of it, what are the powers of the Grail in Type/Moon canon? I mean, what has it been shown to do / said to do? I can only think of it being used to summon Servants... everybody seems to think it's uberpowerful, but what can it do?

While we're at it, what exactly are the limitations of UBW? I don't know if they were ever explicitly stated by Type/Moon... for that matter, where did it come from? I found some hand waving on a few wikis, but nothing definite.
 

Mechatrill

Well-Known Member
#5
Shirou fried his brain tracing just Excalibur. If he tried to trace the Grail, he'd probably be fried before it even comes fully into existence, than that's assuming he could trace it at all, which is a very big if in and of itself. Either way, the Grail's not going to come out from and tracing of Shirou's, end of discussion.
 

GenocideHeart

Well-Known Member
#6
The Holy Grail is supposed to grant one wish of the war's winner. ANY wish. That is, before Angra Mainyu fucked it up, making its wishes all screwy.

The big thing about tracing the Grail is that it's technically alive. Its 'material body' is a Von Einzbern's, remember? Last I checked, UBW cannot trace living beings. Period. End of story.

Also, the Grail is connected to the Throne of Heroes. You *might* be able to trace the Grail itself, as in the physical representation, if you break a bunch of rules, including the one I mentioned above, but trying to replicate the total power it has - including its connection to the Throne... UBW would have to load it with more power than it itself has.

To put it bluntly, and in Magic: the Gathering terms, it's like you tryingt to make a 100-point Fireball with just 10 mana and nothing else. You just can't, because the 100-point Fireball will require at least 101 mana (a red mana for the fireball and 100 to power it), and you only have 10.

Unlimited Blade Works cannot FULLY replicate the Grail. It's as simple as that. Aty most, it can create a pallid copy of it that's going to be more or less useless for most practical uses.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#7
FYI - The holy grail of the Fuyuki wars isn't the actual holy grail. Moreover, it's more of a <s>spirtual existence</s>ritual than any sort of physical object.

The grail, both the greater and lesser, are the Einzbern Homonculi (in reality, their hearts function as the container - or at least in the case of Ilya), but that's only really the physical side of the case. The 'real' grail is the function of punching a hole through reality to reach Akasha, which involves a specific location (Fuyuki), container (Homonculus) and energy enough to make that hole (Servants). In other words, it's not any one thing, and most of those things aren't objects.

So, no. Shirou can't trace the holy grail (the Fuyuki holy grail. Maaaaybe possible if it were the real one, but I don't think it would function the way you think it would).

There's lots of stuff that you're saying that is off, but I'll just break it down like this:

The function of the Fuyuki grail war was to revive the Third. The whole wish business is basically a lie made by the three families after the first war (technically, the grail can grant wishes, but it wasn't created for that purpose, at least outside the wish of reviving the Third).

Function of the grail.

A bastardized Third Magic is used to make Servants, but it's their own power, and it doesn't really have anything to do with how powerful the Third magic is. Blah, blah, blah. The Servants power doesn't have anything to do with the Third beyond giving them bodies (which are not actually 'meat', but spiritual ones. They're technically 'ghosts').

Unlimited Blade Works is a Reality Marble. Look it up. If you're seriously asking where it came from, you should really look into what a RM is first.

EDIT:

IF the grail were a physical object, I'd say that Shirou could actually trace it.

The real problem is that there's no way in hell that Shirou could possibly power the thing. It takes the power of at least six Servants to power the grail, and the function of it is only to make a hole in reality to Akasha, which is the real stuff that allows for wishes and crap.

In other words, even if he could, he'd need do go through a holy grail war of his own just to use the damn thing.

But that's all moot, since it's not a really a physical object in the strictest sense.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#8
Mechatrill said:
Shirou fried his brain tracing just Excalibur. If he tried to trace the Grail, he'd probably be fried before it even comes fully into existence, than that's assuming he could trace it at all, which is a very big if in and of itself. Either way, the Grail's not going to come out from and tracing of Shirou's, end of discussion.
Not correct. Shirou can trace Excalibur. His problem is that he doesn't have enough prana to use it without killing himself.
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#9
Shirou traces the Kaleido Grail! The secret invention that was sealed away because it was just too crazy.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#10
Okay, I get that a Reality Marble is a pocket universe created by a magician, but... well, if it's something that materializes as a reflection of the magician's self, then that means it has to be materialized, right? I guess what I'm asking is when specifically did the UBW get created--Shirou is always described as "accessing" it or something along those lines, but that's not the same as "creating" it. I'm not asking so much "where did it come from" as "when was it created."

I have a pretty specific idea of what a Reality Marble is: it's a small parallel dimension created by a magic-user where they have some kind of absolute dominion. Is this idea wrong?

I see the word "topography" used to describe it, but I don't think it's being used correctly... I mean, I doubt the writers even studied trig, let alone the Seven Bridges of Konigsburg....

Alright... so this "Holy Grail" is created to allow the Eiznburn to recover "Third Magic," which apparently is some kind of spell of immortality. But this grail is some kind of Homunculi. It's not the actual Holy Grail of Christianity... I actually hadn't known that, F1.

Christ (good pun there), it's like some kind of "who's on first" gag. I just assumed that the Holy Grail of FSN was the real and true Holy Grail of Christianity, but it's not... so now there's two objects called "Holy Grail," the Christian one and the Eiznburn one.
 

Pale Wolf

Well-Known Member
#11
It's because some nimrods in Type-Moon-verse decided it'd be pretty cool if anything that could achieve the theoretical capabilities of the real Holy Grail (wishgranting) be referred to by the same term.

There are a LOT of Holy Grails hanging around there.

I have a pretty specific idea of what a Reality Marble is: it's a small parallel dimension created by a magic-user where they have some kind of absolute dominion. Is this idea wrong?
Not entirely, though close. The way I've always thought of it is, you're expanding your soul into the surrounding world. Forcing other people to deal with your inner world, essentially.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#13
daniel_gudman said:
Okay, I get that a Reality Marble is a pocket universe created by a magician, but... well, if it's something that materializes as a reflection of the magician's self, then that means it has to be materialized, right? I guess what I'm asking is when specifically did the UBW get created--Shirou is always described as "accessing" it or something along those lines, but that's not the same as "creating" it. I'm not asking so much "where did it come from" as "when was it created."

I have a pretty specific idea of what a Reality Marble is: it's a small parallel dimension created by a magic-user where they have some kind of absolute dominion. Is this idea wrong?

I see the word "topography" used to describe it, but I don't think it's being used correctly... I mean, I doubt the writers even studied trig, let alone the Seven Bridges of Konigsburg....

Alright... so this "Holy Grail" is created to allow the Eiznburn to recover "Third Magic," which apparently is some kind of spell of immortality. But this grail is some kind of Homunculi. It's not the actual Holy Grail of Christianity... I actually hadn't known that, F1.

Christ (good pun there), it's like some kind of "who's on first" gag. I just assumed that the Holy Grail of FSN was the real and true Holy Grail of Christianity, but it's not... so now there's two objects called "Holy Grail," the Christian one and the Eiznburn one.
We don't know exactly when UBW was created. We know the how and why only.

You are pretty wrong. A Reality Marble is a sorcery where the user forces their inner self to take shape inside of the world around them, a field outside of nature's laws. Parallel dimensions are something else entirely, and the domain of the Second Magic.


Magic, to put it simply, its a miracle. The ability to do something that is impossible, regardless of money or effort involved. Civilization has increased to the point that there are only 5 branches of Magic left. Its a major goal of the nasuverse's mages to discover more, or gain control of one of the 5 that don't have a user. The Fuyuki Grail War is an attempt at this by the Einzbern, Tohsaka, and Matou.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#14
Not correct. Shirou can trace Excalibur. His problem is that he doesn't have enough prana to use it without killing himself.

He could probably copy Arturia's battle experience using Excalibur. He just can't excaliblast.
 

knight_of_ni

Well-Known Member
#15
True, but not being able to use that ability essentially makes it an exceptionally well made sword (with the skills to go with, of course), rather than the anti-castle (I think) Noble Phantasm that it was.
 

Muramasa

Well-Known Member
#16
Going a bit off topic but would he be able to pull off invisible air?
 

Pale Wolf

Well-Known Member
#17
It's sorcery, so yes. But not with Unlimited Blade Works, he'd have to learn the skill on his own.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#18
daniel_gudman said:
Okay, I get that a Reality Marble is a pocket universe created by a magician, but... well, if it's something that materializes as a reflection of the magician's self, then that means it has to be materialized, right? I guess what I'm asking is when specifically did the UBW get created--Shirou is always described as "accessing" it or something along those lines, but that's not the same as "creating" it. I'm not asking so much "where did it come from" as "when was it created."

I have a pretty specific idea of what a Reality Marble is: it's a small parallel dimension created by a magic-user where they have some kind of absolute dominion. Is this idea wrong?
Well, Pale Wolf and ttestagr addressed it already but... eh.

Adding onto things:

FuyukiWiki said:
Alien common sense of demons

????????? - Akuma no motsu joushiki

Reality Marbles. It's not so much the fact that Reality Marbles are natural abilities of demons, but the idea that Reality Marbles THEMSELVES are the natural perception of demons, that is their "common sense".

Oftentimes, the "common sense" idea ties in with themes in Light Novels, such as ESP. The reality (common sense) that you have is able to interfere in the reality (common sense) of others.
In other words, it's like the mindset of the alien warps the world into their own vision of it.

A Reality Marble is a magus being able to copy that same principle with thaumaturgy. It's why it's close to magic, because it's not something that's really possible without thaumaturgy [for humans].

It's a bit more complex, since it's not something that's 'natural' to magi, but in the end it's still the same thing, only created through thaumaturgy. Same principle, only applied to the magi.

And yes (as ttestagr and Pale Wolf said), it's not a pocket dimension or anything like that, it's something that encroaches on the World (hence why the World tries to destroy it - and why the costs of maintaining it for too long are very high).

ANYWAY. As for when was it created, "My whole life was Unlimited Blade Works." Like ttestagr says, it's never stated, however... The point is that his life lead up to its 'realization', not 'creation'. In other words, it wasn't so much the matter of 'it got created at some specific point', and more 'because of how I lived my life, I realized it. It's always been a part of me [because I lead the life I did].'

That's probably not the best explanation, but it's the best way I can put it from how I understood it.

daniel_gudman said:
Alright... so this "Holy Grail" is created to allow the Eiznburn to recover "Third Magic," which apparently is some kind of spell of immortality. But this grail is some kind of Homunculi. It's not the actual Holy Grail of Christianity... I actually hadn't known that, F1.
Well, it's less 'immortality' and more 'revival of the dead' (not quite, but the thought is basically the same), but essentially yes.

daniel_gudman said:
Christ (good pun there), it's like some kind of "who's on first" gag. I just assumed that the Holy Grail of FSN was the real and true Holy Grail of Christianity, but it's not... so now there's two objects called "Holy Grail," the Christian one and the Eiznburn one.
Mm, as already pointed out, it's not just the original and the Einzbern one. The Fuyuki Grail is the 726th thing that uses the name of the 'Holy Grail' in the sense of the legend of it. None of those previous ones have been the real grail either, but the Church is obliged to record them simply because there's a small, near impossible chance that one of it them might be it [or become it].
 
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