Harry Potter How does the Prophecy say that _HARRY_ must die?

[slickrcbd]

I've been reading a lot of fanfics that have Dumbledore believing that Harry must die in order for Voldemort to be defeated, and citing the Prophecy. Other times they say that BOTH need to die.
This is often before Dumbledore knows exactly what the scar is.
I do not understand this, as the Prophecy seems to indicate that one of them must kill the other and that Harry is the one that will do it. There is nothing about how Harry must die in the prophecy. I'll copy/paste it from one of the many online sources here:

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches... born to those who have thrice defied him, born as the seventh month dies... and the Dark Lord will mark him as his equal, but he will have power the Dark Lord knows not... and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives... the one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord will be born as the seventh month dies...."

What is the logic that Harry must be the one to die according to the prophecy? I just can't understand it. To my way of reckoning,  From the Prophecy alone, Dumbledore's message that Harry needs to sacrifice himself to get rid of Voldemort is a load of bull, all Harry needs to do is take him down by his hand, which could be by setting a bunch of mines in an area he expects Tom to walk through and pressing a button to set them off when he's in the middle of the kill zone. Thus he dies by Harry's hand.

I was hoping somebody could explain the logic that so many fanfic authors use to make the other interpretations of the Prophecy that Harry must die for the Dark Lord to be defeated.
The only logic behind that was the horcrux in his scar and the only way to remove it was via the killing curse, though the logic on why Harry came back was weak. Which had nothing to do with the Prophecy.

 

[OniGanon]

I don't get it either. Without knowing of the horcrux in Harry's scar, I see no logic in setting Harry up to die. Actually, I would interpret the prophecy to say almost the exact opposite.

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches" ... "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives"

Neither can live while the other survives. That suggests that if one of them dies, the other can live. If Harry dies, Voldemort is free to live. I would consider this a Bad Thing. Therefore, I would want Harry to survive at all costs.

If I was some kind of sociopathic Knight Templar like fanon Dumbledore, I would sooner put Harry in some kind of magical stasis and imprison him in a hole in the ground under Fidelius, rather than set him up to die.

 

[seitora]

It doesn't, really. Dumbledore even makes a point of it that most of the reason the way the prophecy came to pass is from Voldemort's interpretation of it. It could've been Neville, it could've been some random Auror whose birthdate was near the end of the 7th month of the Julian calendar since the wording is so ambiguous it doesn't need to mean someone who hadn't been born yet

 

[slickrcbd]

I don't get it either. Without knowing of the horcrux in Harry's scar, I see no logic in setting Harry up to die. Actually, I would interpret the prophecy to say almost the exact opposite.

"The one with the power to vanquish the Dark Lord approaches" ... "and either must die at the hand of the other for neither can live while the other survives"

Neither can live while the other survives. That suggests that if one of them dies, the other can live. If Harry dies, Voldemort is free to live. I would consider this a Bad Thing. Therefore, I would want Harry to survive at all costs.

If I was some kind of sociopathic Knight Templar like fanon Dumbledore, I would sooner put Harry in some kind of magical stasis and imprison him in a hole in the ground under Fidelius, rather than set him up to die.

That is how I interpret it. I was hoping to understand the viewpoint of all these fanfic authors.
 Of course, when I first read it in book 5, I thought "why were they so worried about this? It was already fulfilled back when Harry vanquished Voldemort as a baby, and is no longer relevant as it has already come to pass."
I still prefer that interpretation, followed by yours.

 

[nixofcyzerra]

I dunno, the use of the word "live" could be somewhat metaphorical.

Like, Voldemort was so afraid of death that he couldn't enjoy the trappings of power because there was always a little voice in the back of his head saying that Harry was somehow going to kill him. I mean, the only thing he truely understood about Love was that under the right circumstances it could reflect Killing Curses, set people on fire (Quirrel) and cause him unspeakable pain when in close contact with it (possession failure.) He probably had nightmares about Harry bursting through the door and walking up to him, all the while countless curses from Death Eaters just bounced off of him. Or Harry somehow unlocking the "Power he Knows Not" and sending some sort of "Holy Patronus Love Fire" through the scar connection and blowing his head off.

To quote funkmasterjo's "Tsunade's Heir," which I think explains it quite well:

"Don't do that." A dusty Jiraiya said, bursting onto the roof from the stairwell. "I taught you better than that. You're being targeted. Think. Where do you hide?"

"I know you're trying to get me to say 'in the open'," Naruto acknowledged, "but I hardly think –"

"On top of the world!" Jiraiya threw up his arms. "Upon the highest podium! Upon the most clamorous stage! Because you know what scares S-rank assassins the most?"

"…Discovery?"

"Death." Jiraiya answered. "They spend all their time killing things. Not only that, they spend all their time thinking about it. Planning it. Wondering about better methods for it. Of course, no one feels the weight of morality as much as they do. The more skilled people like that become, the more they naturally become terrified of being on the receiving end of their own trade. Of course, all shinobi kill. Really it might just be a small change in perspective. But by the time you reach S-rank, you have definitely piled up that little difference of fear into an insurmountable mountain. Did you know they walk around in the buddy system? Like little kids on a school trip scared of getting lost. It's true."

"You want me to win the chuunin exams." Naruto surmised. "Not because it would make me harder to kill. But because with a lot of people watching me, it would simply be too scary for a chicken to kill me."

"It would help." Jiraiya acknowledged. "Make the finals, and for a month you'll be under so attention and gossip that no approach could be certain. Win it, and people will be pestering you for half a year."

"Shouldn't these guys get more daring as they get more skilled?" Naruto asked dubiously.

"No. They get more chicken. If they got more daring, they'd have died some time ago." Jiraiya answered factually.

Basically, to Voldemort, Love is like some sort of Lovecraftian horror that he just can't understand, that's usually harmless but can somehow be weaponised. And that boy who keeps on not dying (and who has a massive grudge against him) has access to it.

"For Merlin's sake, they've got a room at the Department of Mysteries studying it. It's got to be Hax as Shit!"

 

[Shirotsume]

The general idea that people are going for when they have Dumbledore try to set up Harry's death is that that Dumbledore believes that the prophecy states that while each live, they are the only ones who can stop the other.

This ties up Dumbledore and the order of the phoenix pretty badly- the only person that can stop Voldemort is this kid? So the thought process is that Harry gets offed, the prophecy is fulfilled, and suddenly it's open season on Voldemort- anything can stop him, hell just toss a sonorous on a mandrake and portkey it straight into malfoy's home. Boom, Dark Lord problem solved.


It's not exactly smart- another interpretation is that Harry is the only one who can EVER stop Voldemort, in which case everyone's fucked if he goes down.

 

[endev8003]

I've seen the 'Harry must die' interpretation come up a couple of fics as well, with no real explanation. I think there was maybe one fic that tried to explain it, but the explanation didn't make sense to me. I can't even remember what fic it was.

I usually chalk it up to the writer not understanding the reasoning behind Harry taking a killing curse in book 7. It's kind of like the misspelling of names, completely wrong names for characters, calling the head of the Wizengamot the Supreme Mugwump, etc. The prophecy thing is usually more plot-centric though.

I do think in some cases it's the writer deliberately taking that stance in order to make Dumbledore evil when he knows it doesn't make sense. Those fics are usually the kind where Dumbledore is behind almost every evil thing that happens in Britain.

 

[OniGanon]

The only reason I can see for setting Harry up to die, based purely on the prophecy, is if you interpret the line "either must die at the hand of the other" to mean that ONLY Harry can kill Voldemort, and only Voldemort can kill Harry.

That would make Harry potentially an immortal who is the 'marked equal' of the Dark Lord. That could easily seem like a Bad Thing. But you wouldn't want an invulnerable Voldemort either, so you'd need to set it up so they kill each other.

So the psycho thing to do would be to fill Harry's head from day one with hatred for Voldemort (because the two of them teaming up would make both of them immortal, which would be a Double Extra Bad Thing), probably by giving him a shitty childhood and making sure he knows it's Voldemort's fault his parents aren't around to make it better. Train him to be powerful enough not to die instantly, but far too weak to hope for victory in a straight fight. Convince him that the only way to beat Voldemort would be through some kind of suicidal attack fueled by his own soul or something, like an offensive version of what his mother did to save his life. Get him to form an intimate attachment (romantic or otherwise) with a muggleborn who's sure to die if Voldemort wins, so he has extra motivation to win at all costs. And sure as hell don't give him a Deathly Hallow.

 

[ghudson]

There is a part of Voldemort in Harry . The night his parents died and when Voldemort struck Harry with the curse,it backfired and Voldemort's soul was shattered to many pieces.And a part of it lived in Harry. Thats the scar. Thats why he could see inside Voldemort's head. So, for Voldemort to die,Harry had to sacrifice himself ,since he was also a Horcrux Voldemort never knew about.

 

[Yorae Rasante]

You didn't read the first post. The topic takes in mind a Dumbledore that has no idea about the horcrux but STILL believes Harry must die.