Nasuverse I am the bone of my WEAPON

tungsten

Well-Known Member
#1
My last and first idea for the FSN fandom was a bit of a flop, and with good reason, although I still have hope it might someday be used as a crackfic.

Having researched somewhat more the mechanics of the universe, I was scrolling through Archer's history on Wikipedia, and came up with this:

Wikipedia said:
Through his deal with the world, which made him not only an Epic Spirit, but also a Guardian of the world, he still had hoped to serve mankind somehow in afterlife. However, as the Guardian, he is only summoned to prevent the impending doom of the world by eliminating the cause, which usually means killing people who are responsible for bringing the disaster.
To me, that sounds like nothing more than a WEAPON, from FF7.

I immediately came up with this: The planet is in danger, and it sends out the signal to wake the WEAPONs. And who should wake among them, but Archer.

Granted, there's still some stuff to be worked out like, how did he get to that world. If I recall correctly, human settlers reached that planet far in it's past, when it was already housing the Cetra. Theywere the ancestors of the current-day occupants of that planet.

Maybe instead of being excecuted for his 'war crimes', he was sentenced to exile on the first colony ship - actually a prison ship being sent away from earth, designed never to return. The entire fleet lands on the planet where FF7 takes place, and the rest is history.

It would mean denying the events of the 5th holy grail war, and him ever going back in time to try and kill shirou, etc... but I'd be interested to see what he does on that world.

As a WEAPON, his imperitive is to destroy the ones responsible for the impending death of the world. The rest of the WEAPONS take the view that huanity in general is responsible, and try to wipe it out. Archer is a more precision instrument, designed to surgically remove the flaw with minimal fuss.


Some things I'd like to see:

-Masamune as a broken phantasm.
-Cloud drooling as he sees 'Unlimited Blade works.'
-Archer pointing out all the flaws in Cid's Rocket.


Of course, Sephiroth would completely pwn him, but if he can get six lives off of Hercules, he should at least be able to slow down a SOLDIER general.

Also, given that he now has the pessimistic view that people can oly be saved by killing others (I think - that's what I understand from the Wiki site) I wouldn't put it past him to go after people like Shinra or Hojo, to try and take them out.

Plus, if he could trace Rider's bridle, he could get some pretty cool monsters to ride around on (not too sure about this? Wiki site said he could mainly do swords really well, and even Rider had trouble with things like dragons.)
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#2
The biggest problem isn't how Emiya got to that world, but how he would end up a Counter Guardian for it. The Throne of Heroes is specifically for humans and Earth IIRC.

As for Sephiroth, if Archer has his own body like in the Fuyuki Grail War he would kill Sephiroth in any of his incarnations. Comparing killing Berserker to slowing down Sephy is just wrong. Here's a link to some info on the stats: http://fuyuki.pbwiki.com/Parameters
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#3
Hmm...

Honestly, I'm not sure what you're talking about with him being a WEAPON, clarify please? The point of Shirou becoming a Counter Guardian is that he made a pact with the World, and through that became an Eirei. However... Well, you see, that's just when he dies. He still goes to the Throne of Heroes like a normal Eirei, but he gets sent on tasks as a Counter Guardian.

The Throne of Heroes != the World.

Even if he gets sent off instead of being executed, he'd still end up at the Throne after he died and have to serve THAT World. From the way you're presenting it, nothing would change. If you're saying that WEAPON=Counter Guardian, what you'd need is for Archer to make a pact with the FF7 World, meaning he would have to have been sent off before he made a pact with the World and need a reason to make that pact over there.

So long as he becomes an eirei (i.e., makes a pact and become a Heroic Spirit), he'll end up at the Throne. Thus, his appearance in the Grail Wars is not changed. Every one of them is simply a copy, after all. I'd assume that his WEAPON self would be as well.



Something else to note is that it's doubtful that, as a Counter Guardian, Archer would be anything like he is in Fate/stay night. It's said that the Grail War is the only summoning that allows the Eirei to assume their personality as it was when they were alive, and I assume that this also extends to Archer. So, basically, if you're saying that WEAPON=Counter Guardian, the Archer that would be used would... probably have no personality.

tungsten said:
Also, given that he now has the pessimistic view that people can oly be saved by killing others (I think - that's what I understand from the Wiki site) I wouldn't put it past him to go after people like Shinra or Hojo, to try and take them out.
More like he realized that Shirou's idea of justice is impossible. You save people, but there's always going to be someone you have to defeat, yes? It's not possible to save people without also killing people. That doesn't necessarily mean he'd assassinate people because it would work out better, but he's not naive enough to think it wasn't even an option.




Oh, and as a note? Depending on how Archer fought, he'd could OWN Sephiroth. Close range, I'm not sure, but if he sniped, he'd completely fuck the guy over no matter what. Yes, Sephiroth is powerful (how powerful I wouldn't know, I'm not an expert on FF7), but not so much that he can dodge sword-arrows that go mach 13.2, or ones that go about half that while FOLLOWING HIM. Considering Archer's eyesight is such that he can see the fine details of screws in a bridge from a building several kilometers away, I don't think Sephiroth would have any chance of even getting close before he's skewered (and, it should be noted that those are only his abilities as a Servant. Counter Guardians are stronger due to the fact that they're powered by the Counter Force).

ttestagr said:
The Throne of Heroes is specifically for humans and Earth IIRC.
Not necessarily. The ToH is something for humans, yes, but not specifically for earth. It's basically the holder for the element of humanity (aka, Eirei/Heroic Spirits), and it exists outside of normal time/space. If humans lived on other planets, I don't see why their heroes wouldn't be sent off the the ToH.

Counter Guardians though... have been stated as a force that operates under the World's direction. Forgot the details, but if he's saying that WEAPON=Counter Guardian... well, it might work since the planet is an alien force.

Oh, and Counter Guardian's forms haven't really been stated, so... anything goes really. Not much information is known about them.


EDIT:

BTW, I would take all information on Wikipedia with a bucket of salt. They've had plenty of misinformation on those pages (like labeling Zouken as a vampire).

FuyukiWiki is the only Wiki I trust regarding information about the Nasuverse.

FuyukiWiki's article on the Counter Force.
 

tungsten

Well-Known Member
#4
The way I thought of this - and I'll admit I didn't concentrate to much on th details - when people die, they join the lifestream.

When heroes die, they join that specific portion of the lifestream set aside for heroes.

When Archer dies, he goes to the throne of heroes, but also due to the pact he made, gets linked to the portion of the lifestream which acts as the planets immune system - The WEAPONs.

That he's on FF7 world rather than earth, should mean he dissolves into it's lifestream, rather than earth's yes, and fulfils the terms of his pact there.




As for matching him up against Sephiroth, I don't think it's as simple as all that. Yes, he would have better power at long range, but I'm not sure he'd get so much of a chance, although the stats you guys showed me are far too complex for me to get.

Basically, on that world, Sephiroth is the Big Boss. I don't know if that means you have to scale down Archer's powers, but the only thing that could go up against Sephirotth that easy are the really Big WEAPONs. Archer is, by comparison, just a little WEAPON - or at least that's how I'm imagining him.

Yes, I think he should be a match for Sephiroth, but not able to defeat him with ease, at least.

Especially when you consider thaat Sephiroth is connected to the lifestream, and definitely counts for his own place on the throne of heroes.



Honestly, I'm not sure what you're talking about with him being a WEAPON, clarify please?
All it comes down to is this - AS I understand it, the pact he made is that he can be called forth to defend the planet in times when it's in danger of destruction. He does this usually by hunting down those responsible and eliminating them.

As I understand it, the function of WEAPONs is pretty much the same.

I didn;t understand about him becoming an eirei, so I don;t know if my reasoning for him joining that world's lifestream is at all possible.

another way would be if the throne of heroes was universal, so it wasn't attached to any specific planet, and as a counter guardian he was called on to defend the planet he dies on...

Or is that impossibe too? I suppose it depends on the precise words of his pact.
 

Fatuous One

Well-Known Member
#5
...

Okay, biggest problem? You're trying to tie the FF7 system of life/death to the Nasuverse ALONG with the Throne of Heroes. It's not going to work that easily. Akasha is kind of similar to the lifestream concept, but not enough when you try to tie in other things like the ToH.

Let me say this: The Throne of Heroes is NOT directly connected to Akasha (i.e., the Root. Where your soul goes to when you die). Moreover, Akasha is not connected to a specific planet (neither is the Throne), it's something universal that exists regardless of whether a planet does or not. So whether Archer died here or there, he'd still end up at the same place.

And, as I said, ToH != Akasha (or lifestream or whatever), it's a separate place entirely. Think of it like a net that captures specific souls before they go to Akasha and get recycled. (Lifestream e.g., souls are fish in the lifestream. The ToH nets them out and takes them an aquarium.)

The way you have it doesn't mesh with what's stated with life/death of the Nasuverse. It CAN work, but not the way you're saying. Most importantly, he'd need to make a pact with the FF7 World, not the earth World.





As for the stats, I thought they were fairly simple to understand.

Working under the basis that '1' is considered a normal value:
Think of the number '1' as a normal, healthy human being with some training under his belt. The values of AGI, STR, etc. are set at that.. '2' would be someone that has the strength, speed, and other such things equaled to TWO human beings.

Now look at the stats.

Even with rank E, you still have the strength of ten men IF it's unmodified.

Now, even with that in mind, also take a look at those skills. More specifically, Clairvoyance [Far Sight], Thaumaturgy and Eye of the Mind (Real). Archer has all of those. He has his tracing abilities (although that in itself wouldn't be much threat unless it was against certain individuals).

However... keep in mind that this is simply Archer as a Servant. As a Counter-Guardian, he is much, MUCH more powerful. As powerful as Sephiroth is, if Archer is powered by the Counter Force against him, he is going to have JUST as much strength. The stronger the enemy, the more power (in addition to your normal stats) you have as well, basically.



All it comes down to is this - AS I understand it, the pact he made is that he can be called forth to defend the planet in times when it's in danger of destruction. He does this usually by hunting down those responsible and eliminating them.

As I understand it, the function of WEAPONs is pretty much the same.

I didn;t understand about him becoming an eirei, so I don;t know if my reasoning for him joining that world's lifestream is at all possible.
As I said, don't take Wikipedia at face value. It says that CGs defend against disasters, and they do, but sometimes the cause of a disaster isn't something evil, and/or something obvious. Think like the butterfly effect... well, Archer's job would be to stomp on that butterfly AFTER it flapped it's wings, and then (depending on circumstances) take care of that hurricane. Probably far from the best explanation, but it's the best I can think up at the moment.

For the lifestream thing... it isn't. ToH does not equal Akasha. You're trying to mix concepts. If you ignored a ton of the Nasuverse system of life/death, THEN it'd work, but otherwise...

another way would be if the throne of heroes was universal, so it wasn't attached to any specific planet, and as a counter guardian he was called on to defend the planet he dies on...

Or is that impossibe too? I suppose it depends on the precise words of his pact.
...Uh... Yes/no.

Yes: The ToH IS universal. It's something... never mind. It's specific to humanity, not to a place.

No: The problem isn't of where he died, it's of who he made the pact to. Obviously, if you swear yourself to a lord of a country, and then end up another country when your pact takes effect, you're not going to just get turned that THAT land's lord's service just because the contract is now in force while you're in another's territory.





EDIT:

On a side note, more info about Counter-Guardians:

http://fuyuki.pbwiki.com/Counter+Guardians
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
#6
tungsten said:
All it comes down to is this - AS I understand it, the pact he made is that he can be called forth to defend the planet in times when it's in danger of destruction. He does this usually by hunting down those responsible and eliminating them.
Not exactly. Counter Guardians hunt down and eliminate the "cause" regardless of "responsibility". Counter Guardian Archer might just as well try to eliminate Shinra, Hojo and Lucrecia, or SOLDIER since the disappearance of any of these factors would prevent future Sephiroth-like threats to the planet. Furthermore, Counter Guardians protect the planet, not humanity, so Counter Guardian Archer would not consider mass genocide as something to avoid if it would save the planet.
 

AbyssalDaemon

Well-Known Member
#7
Shiakou said:
tungsten said:
All it comes down to is this - AS I understand it, the pact he made is that he can be called forth to defend the planet in times when it's in danger of destruction. He does this usually by hunting down those responsible and eliminating them.
Not exactly. Counter Guardians hunt down and eliminate the "cause" regardless of "responsibility". Counter Guardian Archer might just as well try to eliminate Shinra, Hojo and Lucrecia, or SOLDIER since the disappearance of any of these factors would prevent future Sephiroth-like threats to the planet. Furthermore, Counter Guardians protect the planet, not humanity, so Counter Guardian Archer would not consider mass genocide as something to avoid if it would save the planet.
Actually the Counter Guardians are the protectors of humanity, they're just extremely ruthless. The philosophy of say cutting off your arm to save your life and such.
 

tungsten

Well-Known Member
#8
Well, I can see that just learning a little more about this universe isn't going to cut it. I had halfway suspected as much: my friend just started the fate part of the game, and the only thing he really told me about it was that it was crazy in detail.

The anime is good, but understandably was cut down to the basics to fit in the timespan required. Wikipedia likewise.

I think I'll abandon this fandom for a while - until I actually get round to playing the game or have a day free to spend doing nothing but browing fuyukiwiki...

Thanks for all the help, anyway.
 
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