Interpretation of characters' backstory

#1
Focusing on characters' backstory specifically. Doesn't matter the one from original series backstories or your own version of their backstory.
 
#2
I was thinking of why Scrya clan, which is expert and archeological stuff, lived as nomad? How can they achieve those level of expertise on lost logia without having facilities like in TSAB? Why Yuuno is quite good at handling magic without even using device?

My idea is that Scrya was the true citizen of cranagan ( before it was called that and seized by TSAB as their main Ground HQ) and one of the original local people of Mid-Childa before TSAB came into being.

After TSAB done their establishing process, they decided to remove any threat to the organization and one of them is Scrya. Magic is rare and hard to find at that time. Sure, there are people who can use it but fewer compared to now like it was normal to Mid people.

That is why, Device were invented to give common people the capability to fight at the same level as mage does or at the very least, make them able to fight as soldier. Scrya are one of the few group of people that can use mage skillfully without using devices. like the old time mage and this scares the TSAB, if the Scrya rebelled against them, the would be chaos and disorder in Mid.

So, they carried out various of action to destroy Scrya. First, killed the skillful among them. This action indirectly cause Scrya to move out of cranagan and ran away to wasteland. As the series of chase continue, the Scrya began to developed skills of Nomad. Then, these episodes of tragedy came to end when some of TSAB superior cancel the order of the extermination. They also start to begin peace agreement with Scryas and they reluctantly accepted. Although they are given the right to return to Cranagan, they refused to do so as their distrust toward TSAB still burn but some of them did went to the city, just to find money or new experience but they did not stayed there.

Of course, the High Council still want to finish SCryas off eventhough they are already shadow of their former glory. Then, a few years before series in MGLN start, they decided to carry out black ops, using some forbidden weapons to finish off Scrya. This action causes Scrya never believe in TSAB ever again, they rejected any proposal from TSAB not even peace agreement or pardon the TSAB for the bullshit H.council pulled.

I'm going to use their distrust as the reason for Yuuno going to Earth alone without waiting for TSAB. the J.seed was transported from Scrya to TSAB HQ by someone else, but because of Precia, the J.s was lost and appeared on Earth.
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Azure

Well-Known Member
#3
Like I said before, I don't quite like this sort of interpretation since it really presents the TSAB as some kind of totalitarian state in a way that goes against what the series does. Not to say the TSAB is perfect, but if it did that they would be an outright villain faction.
 
#4
The system is not corrupted. The individuals who runs them are corrupted. TSAB to me is not totalitarian but autocratic and use the form of unitary government as it basis.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#6
Rolls eyes, The instant I saw this thread a day ago I was waiting for the above type of responses to this member... These type of blanket responses always bothered me, and I see it more in the Nanoha universe than most.

An interpretation is just that... it need not be in line with others, merely make sense in the framework placed.

Interpreting the TSAB can take it in many directions, including the fact that it is *NOT* the nice organization they like to present at first glance... I like and prefer it that way, as it makes more sense to me than the generally accepted and approved and publicly sanitized views...

I personally always liked comparing/interpreting them to Stargate SG1, doing things that are merely in their own personal interests above all others... *not* good guys, merely the closest thing in the series to good guys...

Alternatively, I compare/interpret it to Sailor Moon. Sailor Moon are generally speaking morally good guys, but can be considered poorly trained and/or incompetent bunglers... In comparison, TSAB is much better trained overall, but morally on very shaky ground indeed.

There is plenty of evidence to support a morally corrupt TSAB that favors its own and prefers cover ups... just because fans do not generally *like* such does not change it exists if you look for it.
 
#7
The 3 form ( unitary, federal, confederation) is not limited to state form of government but also organization like UN, which used confederation form. Then again, Bureau is just a name. They (TSAB) are obviously a state government ( but not in the pure ones).

I agree. TSAB is not the good guy in the series. Rather, it the only organization that closest to achieve that. It is because we see TSAB through the eyes of the main cast, whom is living on the bright side, we forced ourselves to think it as a good one. Again, the organization existence is good enough and also really important to ensure order and stability in the series now that the Balkan is gone. Otherwise, chaos would erupt everywhere without an organization to keep it in balance or at least try too.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#8
Personally, I think of the TSAB as being as corrupt/good as any 1st World Country in this world, as in while they generally want to uphold the law and protect the rights of people, them being a big organization that cover several worlds allows them allows corruption to happen and can make them respond incorrectly to things.

Like I said, I think that looking as the TSAB through the eyes of any real goverment that is probably looking out for itself and tires to make the world better is good, but my problem with the backstory Van is proposing is that it jump into making the TSAB a flat out evil goverment that kills dissidents amongst their citizens. Imagine if the USA did that today, there would be riots on the streets and total chaos. Plus to me just killing part of the Scrya is so halfheartedly, if they are so dangerous then the TSAB should have killed every member of the clan to make sure. That sort of action feels like the wrong response a goverment would have against a situation like this, specially in a probably tense situation that where this goverment is being formed post a devastating war that broke the old goverment. The only way this could have been justified is if the Scrya had been planning to take arms or something like that, otherwise I feel the situation should have deescalated way before that.

Plus I don't think this sort of backstory doesn't fit Yuuno as a character, but that might be me.
 
#9
My version of TSAB is some kind of organization that uphold " ends justifies the means". Well, at least, the upper echeclons of the command body are. Not only that, their mind eg High Councils' also become twisted that they think their action will bring real virtue for the world except it is not.

About Scrya extermination, they didn't send the real forces of TSAB to deal with it. They use mercenaries, manipulated the news, information, etc to make Scrya as bad guy.. Their most recent attack should been successful but because some unseen interference came up, the plan failed. Now the organization has become too big even if all remaining Scrya unite, they only going to suicide themselves as there are nobody support them or think them as good guy anymore. There are some people still accept scrya but there are only so few. Because of this, TSAB decided to let them live as they might become useful later and they are no longer a threat to TSAB.

Now, after Yuuno successfully make IL as a working facilities that really bring benefits to the organization, they decided now it is time to make use of Scrya's specialties.

About Yuuno, we don't really know his background but only little compared to other main cast. That is why i take this advantages to create his Background as something dark.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#10
Okay, maybe my problem with accepting this is that I just don't see why a clan of mages would be this dangerous to merits that a goverment as big as the TSAB to do something about them. Considering they are a clan, their numbers can't be too large and even if they all are mages the TSAB should be able to easily contain them if necessary. Hell even if you say it was done by indirect means, I just don't see having one of your political opponents being suddenly eliminated being a good thing for a new goverment, it pretty much won't paint it in a good light and do more harm than good in the long run. Plus if they are so dangerous why allow them to live, even if you say they might be useful, they would be a symbol of rebellion/opposition and just bring problems in the future.

To be honest, I think there are better ways to make Nanoha dark than this, just look at Force which was more effective at that font.
 
#11
That is our point of view. Not them. like our world. Where minorities, no matter its the religion or races, got persecuted by the majorities without any reasonable reasons.

Explain to me how Force is dark.( Maybe in the beginning it is...)
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#12
I was talking about the beginning of Force, which had a good set up to try to make Nanoha dark, but anyhow, like I said, I don't really get what makes them so dangerous that the TSAB would have to go to these lengths to deal with them. Specially if they are so weak that indirect means like mercs are enough to deal with them. Also I don't get the PoV comment, what do you mean with that? Like to them it's normal to deal with threats like that? That's normal in our world too, but not always practical specially when you are basically starting a new government after a long war that destroyed the previous space empire and you are trying to create unity between many people.
 
#13
Basically, what we think and what they think are different.

I should have said that before the mercs were used, they used the real force to exterminate them. Then, after they stranded at wasteland or at least, outside then to be Cranagan, they used the mercs.

Either the mercs were skillful enough or they use dirty tricks against them. Also, just because mercs were used, doesn't meant the remaining scryas are weak. They are not strong enough compared to the ones they lost. Not to mention the morale are low.

Its not like the unification war just ended. This one of the problem that i frequently found in japanese game or anime ( no offense to the japanese). Their time sequence are confusing. Sometimes, t sound like a long time ago, like more than 200 years, then suddenly it was less than 100 years. So, I just set the war that Olivie fought in as far as more than 500 years back.

TSAB can just branded Scrya as dangerous threat to the world. With their military power, the various agreement signed by nations to support them, the popular support they got from people, for the sake of ensuring stability and order of universe and prevent the Scryas from reviving ancient weapons with their expertise in historical stuff, who the heck dares to oppose TSAB?
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#14
To me even if the cultures are different, people are still people, and they would react to a newly made government sending their forces against someone like this, specially when it's something newly formed like the TSAB. For governments to work people still have to trust in them, and an incident like this would lead to people losing trust on the government, and that leads to revolts. Which is dangerous in a time period where people were probably still heavily armed since the last wars happened very recently. Even if you say the TSAB would have control of the media, there would still be ways for the news to go out, specially in a space setting.

The implications for Olive and her unification war was that it happened about 200-150ish years before the current timeline, with the TSAB being less than a 100 years old to bring order after that mess(the official calendar is in the year 70).

It feels like the response is too big for how dangerous the Scrya might be; sorry even if they are a big clan I doubt that they would really be a threat to the TSAB or if they are a real threat then poking them should have backfired at them. The only way this would be reasonable is if the Scrya really were trying to do something, because otherwise they are wasting many resources/political capital into something they might solve with some simpler moves (like negotiating with them, or exiling them if necessary).

To me it's not a question of if the TSAB could do this to a threat, it's a question of this being something worth doing and if it fits with how the organizations generally carries itself. Like if they were the type to respond to perceived threats like this, then that would change how they react in the original series too by making them way more forceful. Like why bother with arresting Precia or the Wolks and instead they didn't just start bombarding the place to deal with them definitely.

Plus think at what the result of this would be in a story, a part of me fears that all this would lead is to having Yuuno feel like he has the right to be a dick because the government screwed his family first. It would feel like something straight out of bad fanfiction.
 
#15
Hence, how powerful they have become. The information flow has been controlled effectively. Even if there are leaks, those people can't do anything as now TSAB has the control on them. Maybe they can start a rebellion but not right away, it have to be slowly.

Not a problem. They can execute the elimination quickly without letting the skillful ones alive with any means necessary. Scryas didn't do anything, TSAB need them to be scapegoat to strengthen the unity of people in the government. Now, after removing the dangerous among scryas, now they are using the remaining scryas to do the scavenging/ dicovering lost logia job for them. Why bother wasting your meat bag for something risky when you can use others meat bag?

to me, they still need Precia expertise, that is why they try to negotiating with her. For the wolks, they are useful to be batlle power for them. Why let lost logia that you can use and control locked up or dead ?

Explain to me the dickness that Yuuno may do to avoid myself from making him a dick or too dicky. ( God, that sound dirty)
 
#16
Except they NEVER had a way to control the Wolkenritter. They were always a package deal with the Book of Darkness that destroyed planets and battleships whenever it was completed, and there was no way to deal with it permanently. Graham's plan to deal with the Book specifically involved it and its master being frozen and sealed away in another dimension forever. Not restrained, not controlled, just gone. And he even had to go rogue and act on his own, outside of his position with the TSAB to carry out his plan.

And Precia? After she left, she dedicated herself to trying to bring back Alicia. Sure, she was probably a very smart and talented mage. But trying to capture and use a woman who has been researching something completely different for years, who is ranked in the top class of mages and was strong enough to attack a battleship and have it actually have an effect?

I mean, if you want to have the TSAB have a dark side, that's fine, governments do. But there's a matter of basic risk and gain. Trying to use a very powerful, emotionally unstable mage, or a planet wrecking Lost Logia, just for the benefits of her research or the strong mages it brings with it, that's like spending $999,000 on a lottery with a 1% chance of winning $1,000,000. There's technically a chance you can come out ahead, but it's so low and the risk is so high that no one who can think would actually try it. It's a ludicrously high level of mustache-twirling, Dick Dastardly Stops to Cheat Stupid Evil.

As for using the Scrya to do archaeology, then why would Yuuno have been so motivated to get the Jewel Seeds? He got himself so hurt he didn't fully recover until after A's. Okay, so maybe his family was threatened or something. But if it were something like that, once they wound up on an unadministrated world, that would be the time to start restraining himself and worry primarily about his own safety, since there'd be nobody around to watch and say "Oh, he's not doing well enough. Kill his puppy."
 
#17
You forgot about Hayate. By manipulating Hayate, they can control wolkenritter indirectly.

As for Precia, brainwash would work.

As for Yuuno, I did tell Azure but didn't include it in the thread. Here it is:

he didn't want to drag innocent people eg. Nanoha in this disaster. Unlike in anime where he unconsciously/ not asked someone to help him, this Yuuno continue to force himself to handle lost logia alone until TSAB arrive not because of his pride, rather his feeling of responsibility and guilt make him do that.

copy paste.
 
#18
Except that, no, those really aren't answers that resolve the fundamental issues here. The question that's been raised is "Given that the TSAB is an organization that would destroy the Scrya with overwhelming force either because they were strong enough to be a potential threat to it or as a scapegoat to make people believe in the TSAB, why would they not respond similarly to Precia and the Wolkenritter?" Your answer was that the TSAB wanted to use them, Precia for her expertise and the Wolkenritter for their strength, and that it could manage them (given that they would definitely not want to work with the TSAB) through brainwashing and manipulating Hayate, respectively. Except that neither method actually deals with the biggest problems.

Precia spent years after leaving focused purely on Al-Hazard and bringing back Alicia, so her "expertise" is very plausibly out of date in the first place. Secondly, brainwashed people typically don't have all of their mental faculties available, so they would be dealing with an emotionally unstable mage whose knowledge may be old, who probably doesn't have all of her impressive brain power available, who has some level of terminal condition, and who would do something horrible in revenge if she ever happened to come back to herself, either by going on a magic rampage or sabotaging whatever she was doing. The alternative answer would be to use a less capable person who is in fine health, who actually willingly works for the TSAB, while nuking Precia and either explaining it away as her conspiring to destroy Midchilda or some other convenient lie, similar to what it did to the Scrya.

As for the Wolkenritter, yes, they're quite capable in combat. Except that they come as a package with the Book of Darkness, aka "That thing that destroys planets." You said the TSAB could control them by manipulating Hayate, except that, until the end of A's, that still leaves the Book as a problem. Nobody knew about Reinforce, the Defense Program, any of that, until Hayate took control at the end of A's. As far as everyone knew, that was just what the Book was designed to do. Even if it's a setting with multiple planets, destroying one isn't a choice they would just make. It's like having a team of secret agents that come with a nuclear time bomb: sure, you've got a group of cool spies to do cool spy stuff, but if you keep them around long enough, a nuke is going to explode in your face. And once the Defense Program is destroyed and that problem is resolved, they're already working with the TSAB more or less willingly. So the options are to bring this group of good but not outstanding mages to work for the TSAB while trying to figure out some way to deal with the inevitable world destroying monster, or nuke them all including the Book while pointing at the times on the record that the Book and the Wolkenritter have destroyed stuff as an explanation. If A's has already happened, then it's a question of "treat them like normal employees" or "let's blackmail them with their master so they'll resent us and be looking for any way to get out from our control."

I'm sorry, there's just no conceivable way to convince me that an organization that would make a preemptive strike against one group that represented an unclear threat would be so alarmingly stupid as to try to control other parties that represent clear and obvious threats, including, and I can't emphasize this enough, coming as a package with  a planet-destroying magic device. At least not an organization that would be able to establish itself the way the TSAB did.

And for Yuuno...so it's Yuuno with his canonical feelings on the issue, just apparently with enough of a buff to actually be able to handle the rampaging Jewel Seeds on his own. Because that's exactly what he wanted. He tried to get Nanoha to give back Raising Heart, go home, and be normal, but she refused.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#19
The bottom line is this, there is room to interpret the TSAB an an evil arrogant organization that has grown corrupt, but you can't half ass it. If it's evil and corrupt it should be evil and corrupt on most steps and thus have similar responses to other stuff like the Wolks and Precia. Plus if it has lasted a long time it means that it should also be competent, so it has to be smart about how it acts so it's believable.

To me the scapegoat excuse is a bad one because at the time of the TSAB's founding the organization was facing all sort of problems and crises, hell it is still facing them to this day to the point it is way undermanned. They don't need an external threat to unite against it or to consolidate their mandate, they already should have tons of them, so they shouldn't be wasting time making new ones.

Like I said, before this sort of backstory reminds me of what other bad fics (like the ones in the Naruto section) do when they make their protagonists have horrible childhoods and have the government/society screwed them first so the authors can justify it when their protagonists are acting like dicks themselves. I don't think Van probably intends to do that, but that's personally the reason why I am so hesitant to accept this besides my opinion that I think it feels a bit needless.
 

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
#20
I haven't been following the subject all that much because the concept of the TSAB being cliche evil like PCHeintz72 so adamantly believes just makes me roll my eyes every time, but I'm just going to point out that controlling Hayate means nothing to the Book of Darkness--A's spelled it out that even after Hayate woke up, took over, and separated the Automatic Defense Program from the rest of the book so it could be destroyed, none of that solved the problem. The ADP was going to regenerate, was going to take back control, and the world would be back to square one. They had to destroy the Book. It was simply not a toy you could control.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#21
I haven't been following the subject all that much because the concept of the TSAB being cliche evil like PCHeintz72 so adamantly believes just makes me roll my eyes every time
Sigh... I've said over and over I view the TSAB as 'not the good guys', not as 'cliché evil' as you say it... there is a fundamental difference. And they certainly can be viewed as corrupt easily based on interpretations of canon material.

They can be viewed as favoring their own, they've been seen at points as not doing not what is right, but what is in their own personal best interests. At least some of their population can be interpreted as being as discerning between the difference between a natural and a convert to their cause... it can be said they are more concerned with their personal image and their private power blocks than caring about the effectiveness of their forces on the field.

If they ever needed someone to do something for them whom did not want to, I am fully willing to believe based on what we've seen that they would make their lives miserable in whatever way needed until they secured their cooperation, be that arrest, detainment, or harassment, or psychological manipulation. Especially if that person was not 'one of their own'.

For one of their own, I'm fully willing to believe transgressions would give the lightest punishments possible, while still making it sound bad enough to keep their public image in line with what is wanted (read, politically correct statement for 'cover up'). They can truly say 'see, we punish this person'.

Thus my comparison of them to Stargate SG-1. which had at points in its series some of all of the above in it, making them *not good guys*, but the closest thing to them compared to all the other much worse bad guys.

Now, the one thing though, I'm iffy on interpreting their canon acts into making them a organization that willingly performs 'brainwashing'... about the most I'd believe in is 'indoctrination' which is not the same... and certainly questionable recruitment tactics.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#22
PCHeintz72, I can see where you come from, and I tend to use a similar (if a bit lighter) interpretation when writing/thinking about the Nanoha universe because no government is perfect and completely good. But to me, that doesn't justify saying that the TSAB is an organization that would be willing to basically exterminate a group of their citizens for no real reason like Van is suggesting in his idea. I can understand wanting to look at the setting through less idealistic lenses, but I think that this is too much and would go against even the worst interpretations of the canon material.

For this to work like Van wants it to, the TSAB would have to be a very different and more brutal organization from the get go, and that would have lead to a very different setting than the one we got from the shows.
 
#23
Isn't that the point of fan fic? To write something different than canon?

Did I point out a large part of cranagan residents feel superior compare to others, especially to other natives of Mid?

Azure, plz tell me the dicky Yuuno in your imagination. I'm afraid if I accidently did that to him.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#24
Yes, fanfics exist to change things, but to me that also should be balanced with the idea that you should respect the source material. But even before that, it comes with the caveat that you will follow the logical concurrences of those changes. One of the core pillars of good writing is being consistent with your setting, and having an organization react one way to something, but then not react the same way later on to something even worse than the first one without a reasonable explanation just breaks things..

To be honest, while I think racism would still exsit even in the future, I am not sure if that would be enough to justify exterminating Yuuno's clan. I really would buy people being racist against the Belkans because they have been blowing worlds for centuries more easily than what you are suggesting.

About the dick Yuuno thing, I am not even sure if I should be explaining this, I mean haven't you read those fanfictions where they give the main character a horrible background to justify them being jerks in story? That's the sort of thing I fear might happen even if you probably are not thinking of it in that way. If you need a scenario, imagine Yuuno attacking Lindy and Chrono when they come to help in S1 with good intentions, or maybe even justifying helping Precia because he hates the goverment for the background you gave him. To me that the mentality that makes you go 'I can be mean to others because the world was mean to me first' is the kind of dickish behavior I am wary of with these kind of backgrounds.
 
#25
Ah, so, as long as I provide reasonable explaination, it still possible to do what I mentioned earlier.

I'm going to use the basis of " Human are not born bad" to create the villian,

Now I see the picture. Yes, I do often see that kind of fanfics, pro Yuuno or anti Yuuno. But can we say that it is a human nature to have that kind of mentality? I'm not going to make Yuuno like that, just wondering that it kind of more close to reality of human psychology.

To prevent Yuuno from become that kind of character, I decided to create an OC that became the embodiment of that mentality (kind of). He will guide the original series characters from becoming like him and will prevent others from repeating the same mistakes,

I see that you mentioning about saving Precia. Is it a bad thing to save Precia, at least for Fate? What about saving Eins?
 
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