Interpretation of characters' backstory

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#26
Not having read your story or idea I can only say saving Precia from the standpoint of Fate need not be a bad thing, as Fate, whether you believe it true or conditioned into her, loved Precia. But the problem is while Fate did love Precia, it is very in doubt if Precia loved Fate.

However, it is very important to think through what exactly Precia's fate (sniggers, word pun, I made a funny...) is to be. What exactly is a rogue super scientist to do. Likewise, unless you have her escape the TSAB, she would be subject to the TSAB definition of justice of the time... *since she is not a member of the TSAB in good, or even not so good, standing, it is a given her punishment would not be near as nice, nor a mere public farce, as it would be if she was a member.*
 
#27
PCHeintz72 said:
Not having read your story or idea I can only say saving Precia from the standpoint of Fate need not be a bad thing, as Fate, whether you believe it true or conditioned into her, loved Precia.   But the problem is while Fate did love Precia, it is very in doubt if Precia loved Fate.

However, it is very important to think through what exactly Precia's fate (sniggers, word pun, I made a funny...) is to be.   What exactly is a rogue super scientist to do.  Likewise, unless you have her escape the TSAB, she would be subject to the TSAB definition of justice of the time...  *since she is not a member of the TSAB in good, or even not so good, standing, it is a given her punishment would not be near as nice, nor a mere public farce, as it would be if she was a member.*
No other way than making her accept the punishment like Wolkenritter did and serve the TSAB or she can rotten in the prison untill death. Hell, if the  damn old man Gil or whatever his name is can get free without harsh punishment, why shouldn't her?
 
#28
He got away with it because he was part of the TSAB when he did his thing, and because his motive was to try to put a permanent stop to the Book of Darkness's endless cycle of finding a new master, getting filled, and the Defense Program destroying everything. In the process, he did have his subordinates interfering in an ongoing operation, as well as doing some comparatively minor harm to a few people acting on behalf of the TSAB, but given that about a decade before, the Book of Darkness destroyed a TSAB ship and killed everyone on it, it's not unreasonable for the higher-ups to look at the situation and decide some lenience is in order.

And the Wolkenritter accepted their punishment primarily because Hayate wanted them to, and it seemed like the best thing they could do for her, not particularly because it was forced on them. You can't really compare Precia to them or Gil, because their actions and positions are completely different.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#29
it's not unreasonable for the higher-ups to look at the situation and decide some lenience is in order.
Absolutely not.

I hated that decision with a passion... and both it and how the TSAB handled the situation overall set the stage for a lot of my views on their sense of justice and fairness in dispensing it, and is one of but not the only the cornerstones to my views on them not actually being good guys but instead merely being better than the bad guys.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#30
Van Silverlight said:
Ah, so, as long as I provide reasonable explaination, it still possible to do what I mentioned earlier.
Like I said, it has to be consistent and reasonable, which you weren't being before.

Van Silverlight said:
I'm going to use the basis of " Human are not born bad" to create the villian,

Now I see the picture. Yes, I do often see that kind of fanfics, pro Yuuno or anti Yuuno. But can we say that it is a human nature to have that kind of mentality? I'm not going to make Yuuno like that, just wondering that it kind of more close to reality of human psychology.

To prevent Yuuno from become that kind of character, I decided to create an OC that became the embodiment of that mentality (kind of). He will guide the original series characters from becoming like him and will prevent others from repeating the same mistakes,
Why would you need to make an OC for that? Yuuno and Co already weren't that type of people, so adding this guy to make sure they don't go overboard because you added a new backstory feels like complicating the issue.

To be honest, maybe the problem is that I need to see you plan your story to get the big picture and why you want to do things like you want. Maybe when I see your things in action, I will get why you are so set in doing things this way.

Van Silverlight said:
I see that you mentioning about saving Precia. Is it a bad thing to save Precia, at least for Fate? What about saving Eins?
There is a difference between saving Precia and joining Precia in her goals because the TSAB is evil.

PCHeintz72 said:
Not having read your story or idea I can only say saving Precia from the standpoint of Fate need not be a bad thing, as Fate, whether you believe it true or conditioned into her, loved Precia. But the problem is while Fate did love Precia, it is very in doubt if Precia loved Fate.

However, it is very important to think through what exactly Precia's fate (sniggers, word pun, I made a funny...) is to be. What exactly is a rogue super scientist to do. Likewise, unless you have her escape the TSAB, she would be subject to the TSAB definition of justice of the time... *since she is not a member of the TSAB in good, or even not so good, standing, it is a given her punishment would not be near as nice, nor a mere public farce, as it would be if she was a member.*
PCHeintz, okay let's be serious what is the worst that the TSAB could do to Precia? Or rather, what undeserved punishment would they give her? Remember that she was basically a terrorist experimenting with nukes in a neighboring country for to the TSAB, so she was engaging in criminal behavior (and yes she is part of their society since she is a native from Mid). At worst I don't think they will necessarily treat her any worse than Jail, so basically her judgement will be to give her medical attention, give her counseling and then either send her to prison or have her do her sentence by helping the TSAB in some way. I mean what else could you really do with her? It's not like they can give her to the Earthlings who lack both the means to properly contain her or help her medically.


PCHeintz72 said:
it's not unreasonable for the higher-ups to look at the situation and decide some lenience is in order.
Absolutely not.

I hated that decision with a passion... and both it and how the TSAB handled the situation overall set the stage for a lot of my views on their sense of justice and fairness in dispensing it, and is one of but not the only the cornerstones to my views on them not actually being good guys but instead merely being better than the bad guys.
PC (do you mind if I shorten your name?), question? What do you think of the First World governments in our world (like the US or Russia to bring the classic examples) that would act similarly in a situation like this? Would you call them shady, or not good? Would that make the good things they generally do questionable?
 
#31
He-who-voted-for-Kodos said:
He got away with it because he was part of the TSAB when he did his thing, and because his motive was to try to put a permanent stop to the Book of Darkness's endless cycle of finding a new master, getting filled, and the Defense Program destroying everything. In the process, he did have his subordinates interfering in an ongoing operation, as well as doing some comparatively minor harm to a few people acting on behalf of the TSAB, but given that about a decade before, the Book of Darkness destroyed a TSAB ship and killed everyone on it, it's not unreasonable for the higher-ups to look at the situation and decide some lenience is in order.

And the Wolkenritter accepted their punishment primarily because Hayate wanted them to, and it seemed like the best thing they could do for her, not particularly because it was forced on them. You can't really compare Precia to them or Gil, because their actions and positions are completely different.
How convenient for him.

Is Precia not one of TSAB too? Maybe Graham was spared because of him being praised and held by majority of people in TSAB as some kind of a hero. If they imposing punishment unto him, that may cause those people to question and disagree with TSAB tops decision and maybe lead to instability to the organization and cause some leak for the bad guy to slip through into Mid and do bad guy stuff without TSAB restraining them.

Maybe TSAB decide that precia don't have something worth to show them so they decided to abandon her? Not that the series show us that happened because precia fell into wherever she gone to.

What choices Hayate have? If she didn't accept that, she and wolks or just wolks will be treat as a threat for TSAB and will be hunt down until death. She would not want and let that happened to them. Of course, she accepted it.

Sure, their position and actions are completely different, except that Gil is far more worse, ruining innocent girl life like that and get to live the rest of his life peacefully  :crazy:.

Sorry if i sound rude but I fucking hate that shitty scum of old man. Whatever happened to TSAB in the past does not justify his action. End does not justify the means.
 

Azure

Well-Known Member
#32
Isn't this a cultural thing, in Japan (and other countries) you are expected to resign from your position when a case of corruption or miss management happens. The idea being that the loss of power/privilege is part of the punishment, alongside the loss of face. Honestly, you guys are acting like governments haven't done things like this before, or that during a trial you can't negotiate conditions/punishments to end the trial quickly. Hell, you also have to consider with how responsible Gil was about the situation, and really how much can you even prove in court. In the end, it's not like Gil gave Hayate the book, and he probably could argue that he overstepped his boundaries/duties by trying to deal with the Book by himself, and just get demoted/removed from his Admiral rank.


Van Silverlight said:
Sorry if i sound rude but I fucking hate that shitty scum of old man. Whatever happened to TSAB in the past does not justify his action. End does not justify the means.
Gee, I am so glad that Chrono (and the TSAB by proxy) called out to him in series and told him that what Gil planned to do was wrong and that the TSAB as an organization should do better.
 
#33
Azure said:
Isn't this a cultural thing, in Japan (and other countries) you are expected to resign from your position when a case of corruption or miss management happens. The idea being that the loss of power/privilege is part of the punishment, alongside the loss of face. Honestly, you guys are acting like governments haven't done things like this before, or that during a trial you can't negotiate conditions/punishments to end the trial quickly. Hell, you also have to consider with how responsible Gil was about the situation, and really how much can you even prove in court. In the end, it's not like Gil gave Hayate the book, and he probably could argue that he overstepped his boundaries/duties by trying to deal with the Book by himself, and just get demoted/removed from his Admiral rank.

If I remember correctly, didn't Gil gave the book to Hayate himself? That demotion seems pretty light for me, considered that he start this on his own without consulting with other officers and the high risk his plan have.


Also, about punishment on Precia. I thinking of making OC negotiating with High Council or at least Parliement of TSAB ( That is a new thing I added into TSAB if it doesn't exist in the original of course) to consider Precia's knowledge and skills she have so that rather than locking her in jail or death punishment.


Gee, I am so glad that Chrono (and the TSAB by proxy) called out to him in series and told him that what Gil planned to do was wrong and that the TSAB as an organization should do better.
You meant?
 

Hoki

Well-Known Member
#34
First, Graham didn't give Hayate the book, he tracked it down until he found it in the possession of the Yagami family. Hayate even says that the book was in her house since she was born. Presumably, Graham intentionally left the book there because he knows it might retaliate if forcibly separated from its chosen master and took up the role of Hayate's benefactor/distant relative when her parents died.

Graham's punishment, in my opinion, is pretty reasonable. Sure, his plan was illegal, had many flaws, and morally unacceptable, but between that and repeatedly having to sacrifice men to stop the B.O.D every time it awakens, he saw his plan as the lesser of the two evils. He's also fully aware of what he's doing is against his own ideals and the ideals upheld by the TSAB, so he doesn't even argue with Chrono when he called him out about his plan. Besides, even Hayate thinks that Graham is ultimately a good person.

The only other person we know of that thinks he's a criminal scum who had evil intentions is Regius. The same Regius who secretly supported a mad scientist in order to justify that the Ground Forces didn't need the support of the other branches of the TSAB.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#35
PC (do you mind if I shorten your name?),
I do not overly mind.

question? What do you think of the First World governments in our world (like the US or Russia to bring the classic examples) that would act similarly in a situation like this? Would you call them shady, or not good? Would that make the good things they generally do questionable?
I never said the governments of the world were not corrupt. I'm pointing out everyone is saying the TSAB is so good...

Graham's punishment, in my opinion, is pretty reasonable
Lets see, just off top of head he is guilty of...

- Plot to assassinate a 9 year old girl in such a way that makes him out to look the good guy.
- Kept secret he knew whom was assaulting and hospitalizing TSAB agents, and where they were.
- Used his own agents and resources to deliberately mislead TSAB investigators.
- Personally responsible for ordering attacks on TSAB agents to delay them finding the truth.
- Did not inform TSAB high command location of item upon finding it that was the cause of loss of ships and people in past
- Was willing to let the book of darkness come practically to completion waiting for the moment to end it, and the girl.

And in response to all the above TSAB high command gave him the *super harsh punishment* of confinement to a unaligned planet, given a fairly high class mountain resort type home to live in and his two personal aides to live with him.

Yeah... there is justice dispensed and reasonable punishment.

Sorry... not convinced.
 

AJ_Katon

Well-Known Member
#36
PCHeintz72 said:
Graham's punishment, in my opinion, is pretty reasonable
Lets see, just off top of head he is guilty of...

- Plot to assassinate a 9 year old girl in such a way that makes him out to look the good guy.
- Kept secret he knew whom was assaulting and hospitalizing TSAB agents, and where they were.
- Used his own agents and resources to deliberately mislead TSAB investigators.
- Personally responsible for ordering attacks on TSAB agents to delay them finding the truth.
- Did not inform TSAB high command location of item upon finding it that was the cause of loss of ships and people in past
- Was willing to let the book of darkness come practically to completion waiting for the moment to end it, and the girl.

And in response to all the above TSAB high command gave him the *super harsh punishment* of confinement to a unaligned planet, given a fairly high class mountain resort type home to live in and his two personal aides to live with him.

Yeah... there is justice dispensed and reasonable punishment.

Sorry... not convinced.
Isn't that basically getting a severance package?
 

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
#37
The man never once stated he was attempting to look good or play the hero. He was trying to solve a problem that no one had found a reasonable solution for, and he did it so he didn't have to watch another friend die needlessly over the artifact. He knew what he was doing was highly illegal, but what choice did he have? What good would informing the TSAB about the Book's location do? They'd just attempt to retrieve it again, and look how well that turned out the last time. It's an unreasonable risk to yet another heavily-populated planet of innocents. And of course he had to wait until it completed. What ELSE could he do? If he shuts it down before it completes, the thing will either find a new host, or destroy the planet and then find a new host, and then everyone's back to square one. Just like before.

You can't see the situation straight, PC, you never have. You're so bent out of shape over a perceived evil that just isn't there, and you've convinced yourself that the guy's a morally bankrupt monster. And it's the same thing with you every time the subject comes up, there's no reasoning with you on it.
 
#38
I don't think most people think the TSAB is good exactly, just that most people look at what it does and conclude that, on an objective basis, most of its actions are fairly benign in nature and lead to overall good outcomes. No organization of its size is monolithic, and to act as though it is purely good or evil just because of actions by certain members is unreasonable. It's like looking at the fact that in America, it is an objective fact that some police officers abuse their authority, and concluding that law enforcement as a whole is evil and shouldn't be trusted.

As far as Graham's actions, your phrasing is inherently inflammatory, in that saying he was plotting to assassinate a 9 year old girl to make himself out as the good guy makes it sound as though Hayate's death was the goal of his actions, rather than a consequence. The objective fact that his plan would have resulted in her death doesn't change, but it would have been the same no matter who the Book chose as its new master, whether it was Hayate, or some hormonal teenager who took it as free license to treat the Wolkenritter as sex toys, or a sociopathic warlord who used them to kill hundreds of people to consolidate power. He chose a method that would assure one death to most likely prevent thousands or maybe millions. I recognize that you don't believe that the end justifies the means. However, if you were to put yourself in that mindset, can you honestly say that the decision he made was the wrong one? Just, try to think about it while only trying to get the best outcome.

His other actions, deceptions, sending his familiars to attack and interfere in the situation, I think everyone acknowledges as wrong, in and out of universe. I don't think there's really much debate on that. Your last two points though...what do you think the TSAB would have done, if they were told where the BoD was? You've already pointed out you don't have faith in the TSAB as the "good guys," so what do you think would have happened? Would anyone have been happier or better off for it? Waiting until the Book was complete to freeze it, I may not be correct, but I think I remember it being specifically noted that it was actually necessary for the Book to have been completed in order for it to be frozen permanently (as in, doing it earlier would let it come back again later).

And his punishment...I'm fairly certain the home he lived in was his personal property, rather than anything given to him. His personal assistants were his familiars, meaning they were dependent on his magical power to live. Separating them would have been effectively sentencing them to death for his actions. In the end, I think it just came down to whether it was worth the effort to do more to punish him. No one was permanently harmed, the Defense Program will never be a problem again, and his primary goal was to stop the Book from ever being a problem again. Given that he'd been involved with the TSAB for 50 odd years, it was probably an "In light of your many years of dedicated service" answer.

@Van

Precia's illegal actions were completely different. Graham wanted to permanently stop a dangerous Lost Logia from rampaging, even though it meant committing crimes. Precia committed a bunch of crimes personally and by proxy to get a set of Lost Logia that she would use to tear open a hole in dimensions because she thought it would get her to Al-Hazard, where she would be able to bring her dead daughter back to life. From the TSAB perspective, you have one guy who broke rules to do what was essentially his job taken to an extreme versus a woman who went crazy after her daughter died and wound up dragging a bunch of people into her quest to go to Super Magic World and resurrect her daughter. They just...don't really compare.

And Hayate...we really have no idea what would have happened to them if they didn't take responsibility for their actions, because they did. It wasn't like Hayate was forced into it, because she specifically chose to join the TSAB to take responsibility for what the Wolks did because she sees them as her children. Them being "hunted"...Jail Scaglietti only gets put in prison for all the stuff he did. Granted that they're using his knowledge, but given that and that Midchildan magic is set to stun at base, I doubt they even have the death penalty. At worst, they probably would have gotten some prison time for their crimes if they refused their "community service," and likely not much, considering Fate went free because she was just trying to help her mother.

"Ruining little girl's life"...Gil did that, and Precia didn't...did we see the same series? Precia whips Fate for not collecting enough Jewel Seeds, tells her how she's just a worthless doll that she never cared about, and the only reason Fate is able to get over it as quickly as she does is because of the Book of Darkness illusion thing she gets put into. Gil supported Hayate after her parents died, and tried to make sure she would suffer as little as possible before being frozen with the Book of Darkness. If he were so callous, why bother supporting her at all? All he needs to do to stop the Book is to keep track of her and make sure she doesn't die, but he doesn't just stop there. Sure, it's because he feels guilty about what he has planed for her, but that in itself proves that he sees her as a person and not just a tool or a sacrifice. Really, Hayate wouldn't have grown to be the person she was without Graham's financial support.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#39
You can't see the situation straight, PC, you never have. You're so bent out of shape over a perceived evil that just isn't there, and you've convinced yourself that the guy's a morally bankrupt monster. And it's the same thing with you every time the subject comes up, there's no reasoning with you on it.
Sigh.. and you are the opposite end of the spectrum... I seriously doubt either of us will ever the twain shall meet... (or however that goes) You and others can slice and dice his actions all you want, but I listed the ones to immediately occur to me, and I say It boils to the fact that the punishment he got was to me far, far, too light for those actions.

View that fact however you want, but he is personally responsible for every attack, every injury, and every potential death of the entire arc. And he set all that up willingly, and knowingly... Plus the planned murder (or insert any other name here you prefer) of a 9 year old innocent whom is not a TSAB member, not a Midchildean resident, and not even in their space, whom had no way of knowing anything.

And his punishment...I'm fairly certain the home he lived in was his personal property, rather than anything given to him. His personal assistants were his familiars, meaning they were dependent on his magical power to live. Separating them would have been effectively sentencing them to death for his actions. In the end, I think it just came down to whether it was worth the effort to do more to punish him. No one was permanently harmed, the Defense Program will never be a problem again, and his primary goal was to stop the Book from ever being a problem again. Given that he'd been involved with the TSAB for 50 odd years, it was probably an "In light of your many years of dedicated service" answer.
I did not mean to imply they should not be there, merely that they were in fact there. I'm sorry, I do not consider retirement to a seemingly very nice mountain home and two servants whom double as bodyguards and familiars to be all that much of a punishment or burden.

The objective fact that his plan would have resulted in her death doesn't change, but it would have been the same no matter who the Book chose as its new master, whether it was Hayate, or some hormonal teenager who took it as free license to treat the Wolkenritter as sex toys, or a sociopathic warlord who used them to kill hundreds of people to consolidate power. He chose a method that would assure one death to most likely prevent thousands or maybe millions. I recognize that you don't believe that the end justifies the means. However, if you were to put yourself in that mindset, can you honestly say that the decision he made was the wrong one? Just, try to think about it while only trying to get the best outcome.
Now, about the death of just Hayate vs. many... I will note she was on Earth, a very populous planet, in Tokyo, a very large local population indeed. Despite that, I do not however for one second believe any decisions regarding its disposition should have been in his hands at all, considering he was quite frankly too emotionally involved considering his own son was one of those lost.

It annoys me how many seem to not only sympathize with the views he had, but seemingly support it. Makes it sound like they are all for high rank military soldiers going rogue and doing their own thing.

what do you think the TSAB would have done, if they were told where the BoD was? You've already pointed out you don't have faith in the TSAB as the "good guys,"
Thank you for this one statement... Do note the repeated use on my part of 'not the good guys', and specifically stating they are not 'evil'. The two are not remotely the same. I mention this do to repeated references in this thread noting I think them evil, which is not the case.

Another thing, the sole reason I actually like the Nanoha series is not *despite* the fact I view them as 'not the good guys', but *because* the fact I view them as 'not the good guys'. It actually appeals to me as being more realistic.

so what do you think would have happened? Would anyone have been happier or better off for it? Waiting until the Book was complete to freeze it, I may not be correct, but I think I remember it being specifically noted that it was actually necessary for the Book to have been completed in order for it to be frozen permanently (as in, doing it earlier would let it come back again later).
Simple, Ghraham ruined it, we actually do not know. We could guess til doomsday and not get it correct. However, any failing or shortfall in handling it, and how it was done, would have been shown to us on a above board mission and task of the TSAB and given us great insight into their methods. However, because Ghraham knew for so long where and whom she was, the TSAB if careful would have been given plenty of time to figure out possible alternate solutions based on what did not work in the past, so they did not repeat those mistakes, and hopefully not end up with either a killed 9 year old girl or a dead crew and destroyed ship.

It certainly would not have ended up with agents mysteriously attacked and violated by unknown individuals. Because the TSAB would have known what was going on.

Personally, I think they would have bungled it. simply based on how other actions have gone. BUT I WOULD HAVE HOPED THEY WOULD HAVE TRIED. And that story would have been worth watching.
 
#40
Well, shit. Back from classes and see this hot discussion. I feel like watching two group of people debating with a strong enthusiasm.

Now, this is the kind of discussion I want to see in a forum. Not just plainly saying you are wrong or you are right. Both sides explain their reasons clearly. Thank you guys, You have gave me some insight on both Precia's and Graham's situation. No, it is not sarcasm, I'm serious.
I did agree with some of you guys opinion on both characters, like Precia being different than Graham. I also agree on PC's opinion that can TSAB at least could careful planed how to handle BoD problem with new methods unlike before.

I remembered someone saying this: "There is a difference between saving Precia and joining Precia in her goals because the TSAB is evil."

My question is" Does saving Precia count as bad thing? What about saving Eins?"

I never said anything about joining in her goal because TSAB is evil. To me TSAB is not an evil organization. A lot of its officers are good men but the small elite that control TSAB are corrupted and twisted. They manipulated the good aspects of TSAB to benefits their cause. The organization is not evil, maybe something in the middle of good and evil, but the individuals are evil.
 

PCHeintz72

The Sentient Fanfic Search Engine mk II
#41
My question is" Does saving Precia count as bad thing? What about saving Eins?"
I suppose this would depend on whom in the TSAB would be handling her case and exactly what the punishment/rehabilitation is.

Precia is fully deserving of punishment/rehabilitation, at least in my eyes, not because she was a mother whom tried to revive her sick daughter, which is actually admirable, but because of all the criminal and immoral acts she did and the warped mindset she had in the process of making attempts at it.

The problem I see is the TSAB may see past the punishment she deserves to instead what she could provide to them... after all, when you think about it, that very reasoning is why we had a fairly carefree and loose Jail running around for the whole Numbers arc, the TSAB, a portion in any case, was actually helping him.

If it was the three public heads of the TSAB (as shown in newcasts), she might actually get punishment and rehabilitation.

If it is near anyone else, especially at that point in time, I very much doubt it. We know of at least two corrupt high end TSAB agents running long term tentative illegal and off the books black ops, with the possibility of a whole lot more doing so, and even some honest ones may be tempted by what she could provide.
 
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