Altered Nova said:
Do the human fighters actually ever reach a limit to their maximum power that they cannot surpass? A point where they simply can't get any stronger no matter how hard they train?
I know the humans do mostly become completely ineffective around the point of the android saga, but I don't think they ever actually stopped improving. (In fact, I'm pretty confident that Buu Saga Krillin could have defeated Namek Saga Frieza.) They just don't increase their strength fast enough to keep up with all the new villains who keep showing up, or the Saiyans who are a genetically superior warrior race with magical transformation powers.
So raising your maximum potential might not really help much, if you'd never be able to reach that maximum (at least not without spending decades in the hyperbolic time chamber). You'd be better off wishing for a way to multiply your power (a "Super Saiyan" or equivalent transformation) or a way to increase your base power at a faster rate (zenkai would definitely help with that).
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@Contrabardus - sounds like you would try to fix stuff that wasn't broken. If I was a betting man, I'd say you'd just end up making everything worse. Like, get rid of Chichi and Goku winds up a lifelong bachelor, or whatever kids he ends up having with someone else are all useless weaklings. Or somebody finds out you murdered her and everyone turns against you. Or Vegeta is so jealous and outraged that a nobody like you wished himself into a Saiyan and became ludicrously powerful that he goes straight up psychotic and is never redeemed. Or Gero gets your DNA despite your best efforts and Cell is invincible. Or Future Trunks shows up with a posse of time patrollers and offs you for messing up the timeline. :snigger:
Also, what's with you assuming you'd totally become stronger than Goku just because you have future knowledge? I think it's more likely you'd find yourself always lagging behind the canon saiyans because those guys are goddamn warrior prodigies who have been fighting since they were old enough to walk (and in the case of Goten and Trunks, were lucky enough to be born with absurd power levels and transformations they didn't even have to work for.) It sounds like your Dragonball Z self-insert fanfic would be a boring, insufferable Gary Stu story.
Personally, as a life-long couch potato who has never seriously worked out or been in a real life-or-death fight in my life - I'd assume that even with wish-given Saiyan blood, I'd probably never be much stronger than canon Yamcha and plan according to that. Despite his shortcomings, Yamcha still was a very skilled martial artist who definitely has way more discipline and much better combat instincts than me.
Of course I'd make some things worse and not everything would work out. I'd plan for that. I wouldn't be above at least blasting Nappa out of existence if there was a problem, but I think dangling SSJ and helping Vegeta destroy Frieza would garner enough good will I wouldn't have to worry about him going psychotic on me. Especially if I didn't try to do it for him, get in his way, and let him handle it on his own. I doubt he'd ever be any friendlier than he is in Super towards Goku, but I also doubt it'd be much worse than that. I would not expect, or even really want, to be best buddies with him.
It might piss him off and he probably would look down on me even more than he does Goku, but given that I helped him get revenge and made him stronger, he'd probably tolerate me. I also distinctly recall not wishing to be any stronger, just making a wish that gave me a better base to work with. I'd still have to put in the effort myself. I wouldn't wish to be a SSJ, and it's unlikely that Shenron could grant such a wish anyway given the power level involved. If you recall, he couldn't do anything about Nappa and Vegeta because they were both stronger than him before they ever landed on Earth.
Why would anyone turn on me for killing Chichi? Aside from Ox King? Goku barely even fucking remembers her when she meets him again. Ox King and Chichi were fucking criminals themselves, raiding and pillaging the countryside. Most of the DBZ characters kill lots of people, and are often rather flippant about it. Piccolo destroys entire cities and everyone is cool with him. Same goes for 18. Hell, Vegeta has been wiping the life off of entire planets for years before he turns. Half the DBZ crew were once cold blooded murderers, con artists, and evil dicks at one point. This assumption that anyone would be all that upset if I killed one person at a point no one really knows them does not compute. I could easily use their past as justification for it if it came down to it, especially if I wasn't there when Goku met them and could claim I wasn't aware that they had reformed. Though, as I said I would try to avoid it with other means before I went that far.
Even if it became an issue, I could use the Dragon Balls to bring her back and use that as leverage to get her to forgive Goku and leave him alone. If fate is determined to get them together, I could also use that as leverage to force her into allowing her husband and descendants to be trained properly without interfering. Set up some ground rules so to speak regarding it in exchange for bringing her back.
Dr. Gero getting his hands on my DNA and making Cell even more powerful could be an issue, but he also would not be invincible. Gohan or whatever half Saiyan child that exists at that point would probably still be able to take him. Especially if Chichi was not around or forced into a promise to allow training and the kid had been trained properly to begin with.
Though, I also question whether it would make Cell any worse even if he did. It would just be more Saiyan DNA, and would likely be from years before whatever my current level was at the time. There's a good chance Dr. Gero wouldn't even use it because it would just be more that was already similar to what he already had and would just be redundant.
Goku would eventually match or outdo me, but I'm betting I could keep up with him until at least the Buu saga assuming what the premise we're working with does. In fact, I'd kind of need that after the Saiyan saga for my plans to work out. Training solo would not be enough beyond that to achieve the goals I'm setting here.
Also, whatever kids Goku has becoming weaklings does not fit with what evidence there is in Dragon Ball at all. That is an extremely unlikely outcome. Bulma isn't a martial artist, and Trunks is plenty strong. I've seen no evidence Vegeta being a 'super elite' has any relevance on his power level or that of his children. If it did, Goten would not be a match for him and they wouldn't be able to fuse. Same goes for the quarter Saiyan children, Pan is flying as an infant, she's stupidly powerful. This assumption also does not compute.
Goku being a lifelong bachelor wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Gohan is never instrumental to the point he couldn't be replaced, particularly if there's another Saiyan around who isn't celibate. I also don't really see Goku being a lifelong bachelor. Dude is ripped, an absurdly nice guy, and would eventually get laid. Especially if he had someone playing wingman for him and pushing him to notice things he'd otherwise ignore.
I also would expect to get at least matched by the other saiyans eventually. However, earlier on in the series it would not be not beyond me to outdo them and stay a step ahead if what this premise we're presented with assumes is true.
We're not talking about ourselves just showing up out of nowhere. The premise is that you end up Yamcha, in an already trained body with martial arts skills. The premise we're working with here seems to include retaining whatever skills Yamcha has at the point we're taking over. We're not starting from zero, but are on a level near to where Goku is at the same point. We are a martial arts prodigy who has likely trained since they could walk and is combat hardened already. He's been living as a bandit up to that point and it's implied he's probably killed a few people. That's not confirmed, but he has at least beaten people and robbed them.
I also think you're overestimating Kurillin's power level later in the series. He's not weak, but I would say he's maybe, and it's a big maybe, around Captain Ginyu's level at best. Probably not even that strong, but close enough to give him a good fight. Frieza is likely still an enemy that would be beyond him even at that point. Yes, he hurt Cell, and that was impressive, but I also don't think he's quite as strong as you're suggesting.
I also see no reason why Trunks and the Time Corps would get involved. I wouldn't be a time anomaly. There's no time travel involved and if anything I would just be considered mildly psychic. I wouldn't be screwing with the time stream, but a natural part of the existing timeline given the premise.
I have no interest in writing this SI because you're right, it would be a boring SI piece of Gary Stu crap. I'm just commenting on the premise we've been given in the manga in regard to the assumptions it seems to be making. One of the big ones is that foreknowledge of the training, events, and characters gained only from the manga and anime can be put to use to become much stronger and influence events in our version of Yamcha's favor to dramatic effect.
If I was writing this, the MC would be a magnificent bastard and all sorts of new problems would crop up. What I'd write and what I'd actually attempt to do in this situation are two different things.
Honestly, I'd be a bit more of a tactical character, but also likely would keep up with Goku and Vegeta for the most part. Though, I also wouldn't say I'd necessarily be stronger, or even able to beat either of them one on one. At least not consistently. It is worth pointing out that if I did wish myself into being a Saiyan, it would also likely grant me their fighting instincts as well. That's part of being a Saiyan after all.
That isn't to say I'd have the same level of drive as either of them, but it would go a long way to mange keeping up and using what knowledge I have of the more advanced training to give a leg up to all the surviving saiyans and their offspring in the process. The basic premise assumes that knowing the manga is enough to get ahead of the curve at least. It's also worth pointing out that the main character dies because he's clumsy and falls down some stairs. He's not exactly a super martial artist prodigy himself to start with. He ends up in Yamcha's body while he's still a teen and brings down all the Saibamen at once without breaking a sweat during the Saiyan saga.
Boring or no, the 'rules' of Dragon Ball aren't that hard to grasp and can easily be turned in one's favor if one is aware of them according to the premise as presented. That might not make for a very interesting SI story premise, but it does seem to be what we're being presented with here.
That's part of why I'm finding this turn of events so amusing to begin with. It basically is a bad Gary Stu SI fanfic dojin that is getting an official publication.