Jump publishes self insertion Dragon Ball manga.

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#1
It was bound to happen eventually, but Shonen Jump's Digital arm has started publishing a manga that is basically Dragon Ball self insertion fanfiction.

The story and art are being done by Dragon Garow Lee, a rather big name in dojin circles.

A teenage boy finds himself in the body of Yamcha of all people, and uses his knowledge of the later part of the series to his advantage to become a badass. I am not even a little bit kidding. This is getting official publication in through Shonen Jump Plus, which is a digital manga anthology. The link here is raws, it hasn't been translated yet. Most of it is him geeking out over Dragon Ball, and everyone being surprised at how strong he is, and it skips a lot of the manga plot obviously. Not sure how long it will be, but I get the impression it will at least a few chapters
 

H-Man

Random phantom.
#2
Seems like he used the Dragon Balls to wish himself to Namekusei [with some way of coming back, I hope] to get his full power unlocked before this point, based on the last panel.
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#3
H-Man Seems like he used the Dragon Balls to wish himself to Namekusei [with some way of coming back, I hope] to get his full power unlocked before this point, based on the last panel.

Dunno why he wouldn't just wish himself into being a Saiyan back when Goku was still a kid. That would be the best way to ensure he could stay on top of things.

In fact, it's something that's within the Dragon's power, and the only way he won't eventually hit a wall once Goku and Vegeta go SSJ.

He may have done this and just got rid of his tail right away.
 

H-Man

Random phantom.
#4
Could be he's one of those kids who likes Saiyajins but thinks the way they made the story revolve around them and not humans was dumb and wants to prove that himself-as-Yamcha could have done better than canon if only he wasn't written by Akira Toriyama.

Plus he could always have just wished for humans to have Zenkais instead, which is about the same thing, devaluates humans less, and lets him profit from that suffering.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#5
What if you just wished to be more powerful? What's the limit on that? Would the dragon just add a discrete number to your "power level"? Could the dragon make you stronger than itself? Could it unlock your maximum potential like Guru?
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#6
Altered Nova said:
What if you just wished to be more powerful? What's the limit on that? Would the dragon just add a discrete number to your "power level"? Could the dragon make you stronger than itself? Could it unlock your maximum potential like Guru?
It would be better to wish for a higher maximum potential than Goku or something along those lines. Shenron gets destroyed early in Dragon Ball and his power level isn't that high by regular Dragon Ball standards, much less DBZ. He also can't grant a power beyond his own, as he's mentioned it before. I think he could manage raising a maximum potential though, as it's more planting a seed than simply granting power beyond his own.

Even with Zenkai, Yamcha would still hit the transformation wall eventually. Shit like Majin Buu, Frieza, and the Androids would still probably still be beyond him. Vegeta mentions hitting a plateau in his training to become stronger at one point, so Zenkai probably has some limits.

Basically, the best way to handle that situation would be to jump in before Oolong and wish to become a Saiyan when Pilaf summons Shenron. It lets you in on the power creep ahead of the curve, especially if you have later series knowledge. He probably wouldn't have too much trouble getting Bulma to build him a gravity training chamber. I would not be going along with Goku as the author does in this. Given what I know of series training methods, I wouldn't need Roshi's help.

Dunno how I'd handle Bulma if I was Yamcha. Not so sure I'd want to marry her, but I'd probably date her for a while. I would use it to my advantage, but I think I'd give it an honest shot at least and see where it went. It might actually work out, at the least I'm smarter than Yamcha. Not that it's a high bar.

I also wouldn't help Goku become too much stronger if I could help it. It would not be a good idea to interfere with Raditz killing Goku, or to make him strong enough to survive that battle before it happens. The Spirit Bomb and Kaio-Ken are important factors in several battles. He needs to die and travel to King Kai for a lot of reasons beyond that arc. King Kai is their inroad to the world of the Kai if you remember.

Same goes for Gohan's training with Piccolo. That's what turns him from an enemy with a mutual problem into a tsundere ally later in the series.

I'd also be sure to cock block Chichi and set Goku up with someone else. This could be as simple as explaining what marriage is to him before he meets her, or giving him the idea that it's something he should definitely avoid and absolutely refuse if offered. Despite what I just said, she's a huge problem later in the series in regard to Gohan's development and gets in the way of Goku's training whenever she can as well. Goten is only as strong as he is because of Trunks and because he's less of a momma's boy. She's out by any means necessary, even if it means killing her before she shows up at the tournament with her grudge. I'd try to avoid that extreme as best I could, but if it came down to it I'd get rid of her.

I'd be a bro and try to set Goku up with someone else if I could. We'd both likely end up with families sooner or later. I don't think the world would be lacking in high potential half saiyan kids by the time they should be there. Knowing me, they might even be a bit older.

I wouldn't start seriously training to help anyone else become stronger to later series levels until after the Saiyan arc. Then it would be a full on rush to Super Saiyan and beyond, which I would have hopefully already done in secret by that point. I'd also have an excuse to not be there before then.

If I had achieved SSJ by that point, I'd destroy the scouters after Piccolo is killed, and try to recruit Nappa and Vegeta using SSJ as a carrot. In fact, I might actually use that as my excuse for being late, saying that I was new to the transformation and flew to help out as soon as I had gotten control of it. Helping them both bring down Frieza and giving them a place to stay on Earth would probably chill them both out after a little while. Another Saiyan would definitely be useful later on, and both myself, Goku, and Vegeta having a training partner would make training more efficient.

Would not fuck with Cell's existence, but would definitely take measures to avoid letting Dr. Gero get any samples from me. I would definitely be trying to be at SSJ 3 before Cell shows up if possible. I'd definitely have been trying my hardest to be at SSJ 2 before the androids show up. Would not cock block Kurillin by destroying 18. Would try to avoid destroying 17 because I'm not sure how she'd take that, but also wouldn't be above it if it came down to it, if only because the Dragon Balls could be used to resurrect him if it became a problem.

I dunno how I'd handle Mr. Satan. I might actually usurp him early on, well before the Buu shit happens. Enter a bunch of martial arts tournaments [holding back a lot obviously], become known as the strongest man in the world and become a public hero figure, and leverage that into a fortune and do a lot of charity and PR things to build a good reputation. He's something of a useful idiot and despite his flaws is mostly a decent guy, so I'd probably still help him out and might even train him a little. Unlike Chichi, I wouldn't want to be rid of him.

Would definitely try to manage the first SSJG transformation before Beerus shows up. Blue if possible. Should have enough Saiyans before that point to try and manage it. Would probably try to manage it before the mess with Majin Buu starts if I could.

I'm kind of surprised there isn't a more advanced version of the SSJB transformation already, but would be working on that if possible prior to when Super starts for sure.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#7
I came to post about this exact thing, but you already got here first.

This sounds like one of those dime-a-dozen Japanese, Korean and Chinese webnovels where a character ends up in another world.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#8
Do the human fighters actually ever reach a limit to their maximum power that they cannot surpass? A point where they simply can't get any stronger no matter how hard they train?

I know the humans do mostly become completely ineffective around the point of the android saga, but I don't think they ever actually stopped improving. (In fact, I'm pretty confident that Buu Saga Krillin could have defeated Namek Saga Frieza.) They just don't increase their strength fast enough to keep up with all the new villains who keep showing up, or the Saiyans who are a genetically superior warrior race with magical transformation powers.

So raising your maximum potential might not really help much, if you'd never be able to reach that maximum (at least not without spending decades in the hyperbolic time chamber). You'd be better off wishing for a way to multiply your power (a "Super Saiyan" or equivalent transformation) or a way to increase your base power at a faster rate (zenkai would definitely help with that).

----

@Contrabardus - sounds like you would try to fix stuff that wasn't broken. If I was a betting man, I'd say you'd just end up making everything worse. Like, get rid of Chichi and Goku winds up a lifelong bachelor, or whatever kids he ends up having with someone else are all useless weaklings. Or somebody finds out you murdered her and everyone turns against you. Or Vegeta is so jealous and outraged that a nobody like you wished himself into a Saiyan and became ludicrously powerful that he goes straight up psychotic and is never redeemed. Or Gero gets your DNA despite your best efforts and Cell is invincible. Or Future Trunks shows up with a posse of time patrollers and offs you for messing up the timeline.  :snigger:

Also, what's with you assuming you'd totally become stronger than Goku just because you have future knowledge? I think it's more likely you'd find yourself always lagging behind the canon saiyans because those guys are goddamn warrior prodigies who have been fighting since they were old enough to walk (and in the case of Goten and Trunks, were lucky enough to be born with absurd power levels and transformations they didn't even have to work for.) It sounds like your Dragonball Z self-insert fanfic would be a boring, insufferable Gary Stu story.

Personally, as a life-long couch potato who has never seriously worked out or been in a real life-or-death fight in my life - I'd assume that even with wish-given Saiyan blood, I'd probably never be much stronger than canon Yamcha and plan according to that. Despite his shortcomings, Yamcha still was a very skilled martial artist who definitely has way more discipline and much better combat instincts than me.
 

H-Man

Random phantom.
#9
And that's why our untalented nerd chose to ditch Bulma the first chance he got so he could learn under Master Kame.

Which is, realistically, probably the only way he could get to surviving as a fighter if he can't use the Rouga-Fu-Fu-Ken anymore [just an assumption for now, but let's face it, life isn't the 'press button and act' type so he probably couldn't perform it right as he woke up].

Regarding the plateau, it may depend on what the 'potential unlocked' means as a whole. Kuririn was hardly level with the high tier enemies when it was time to fight the androids and Cell, compared to Tenshinhan being able to use his full life force to stun a Semi-Perfect Cell for about a minute, and he already had done that. Plus there's the whole 'Gohan did it twice' bit, but those are different power-ups as well [since one came from a 'priest' and the other from a God's God's God's God].

Also, I hope we at least see some flashes of Yamcha interfering in this world as we go, like his trying to fight Taopaipai [either seriously or to stall for time when he comes for Goku again] or helping against the Red Ribbon Army. But well, we don't know how much he's willing to risk his life either, now.
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#10
Altered Nova said:
Do the human fighters actually ever reach a limit to their maximum power that they cannot surpass? A point where they simply can't get any stronger no matter how hard they train?

I know the humans do mostly become completely ineffective around the point of the android saga, but I don't think they ever actually stopped improving. (In fact, I'm pretty confident that Buu Saga Krillin could have defeated Namek Saga Frieza.) They just don't increase their strength fast enough to keep up with all the new villains who keep showing up, or the Saiyans who are a genetically superior warrior race with magical transformation powers.

So raising your maximum potential might not really help much, if you'd never be able to reach that maximum (at least not without spending decades in the hyperbolic time chamber). You'd be better off wishing for a way to multiply your power (a "Super Saiyan" or equivalent transformation) or a way to increase your base power at a faster rate (zenkai would definitely help with that).

----

@Contrabardus - sounds like you would try to fix stuff that wasn't broken. If I was a betting man, I'd say you'd just end up making everything worse. Like, get rid of Chichi and Goku winds up a lifelong bachelor, or whatever kids he ends up having with someone else are all useless weaklings. Or somebody finds out you murdered her and everyone turns against you. Or Vegeta is so jealous and outraged that a nobody like you wished himself into a Saiyan and became ludicrously powerful that he goes straight up psychotic and is never redeemed. Or Gero gets your DNA despite your best efforts and Cell is invincible. Or Future Trunks shows up with a posse of time patrollers and offs you for messing up the timeline.  :snigger:

Also, what's with you assuming you'd totally become stronger than Goku just because you have future knowledge? I think it's more likely you'd find yourself always lagging behind the canon saiyans because those guys are goddamn warrior prodigies who have been fighting since they were old enough to walk (and in the case of Goten and Trunks, were lucky enough to be born with absurd power levels and transformations they didn't even have to work for.) It sounds like your Dragonball Z self-insert fanfic would be a boring, insufferable Gary Stu story.

Personally, as a life-long couch potato who has never seriously worked out or been in a real life-or-death fight in my life - I'd assume that even with wish-given Saiyan blood, I'd probably never be much stronger than canon Yamcha and plan according to that. Despite his shortcomings, Yamcha still was a very skilled martial artist who definitely has way more discipline and much better combat instincts than me.
Of course I'd make some things worse and not everything would work out. I'd plan for that. I wouldn't be above at least blasting Nappa out of existence if there was a problem, but I think dangling SSJ and helping Vegeta destroy Frieza would garner enough good will I wouldn't have to worry about him going psychotic on me. Especially if I didn't try to do it for him, get in his way, and let him handle it on his own. I doubt he'd ever be any friendlier than he is in Super towards Goku, but I also doubt it'd be much worse than that. I would not expect, or even really want, to be best buddies with him.

It might piss him off and he probably would look down on me even more than he does Goku, but given that I helped him get revenge and made him stronger, he'd probably tolerate me. I also distinctly recall not wishing to be any stronger, just making a wish that gave me a better base to work with. I'd still have to put in the effort myself. I wouldn't wish to be a SSJ, and it's unlikely that Shenron could grant such a wish anyway given the power level involved. If you recall, he couldn't do anything about Nappa and Vegeta because they were both stronger than him before they ever landed on Earth.

Why would anyone turn on me for killing Chichi? Aside from Ox King? Goku barely even fucking remembers her when she meets him again. Ox King and Chichi were fucking criminals themselves, raiding and pillaging the countryside. Most of the DBZ characters kill lots of people, and are often rather flippant about it. Piccolo destroys entire cities and everyone is cool with him. Same goes for 18. Hell, Vegeta has been wiping the life off of entire planets for years before he turns. Half the DBZ crew were once cold blooded murderers, con artists, and evil dicks at one point. This assumption that anyone would be all that upset if I killed one person at a point no one really knows them does not compute. I could easily use their past as justification for it if it came down to it, especially if I wasn't there when Goku met them and could claim I wasn't aware that they had reformed. Though, as I said I would try to avoid it with other means before I went that far.

Even if it became an issue, I could use the Dragon Balls to bring her back and use that as leverage to get her to forgive Goku and leave him alone. If fate is determined to get them together, I could also use that as leverage to force her into allowing her husband and descendants to be trained properly without interfering. Set up some ground rules so to speak regarding it in exchange for bringing her back.

Dr. Gero getting his hands on my DNA and making Cell even more powerful could be an issue, but he also would not be invincible. Gohan or whatever half Saiyan child that exists at that point would probably still be able to take him. Especially if Chichi was not around or forced into a promise to allow training and the kid had been trained properly to begin with.

Though, I also question whether it would make Cell any worse even if he did. It would just be more Saiyan DNA, and would likely be from years before whatever my current level was at the time. There's a good chance Dr. Gero wouldn't even use it because it would just be more that was already similar to what he already had and would just be redundant.

Goku would eventually match or outdo me, but I'm betting I could keep up with him until at least the Buu saga assuming what the premise we're working with does. In fact, I'd kind of need that after the Saiyan saga for my plans to work out. Training solo would not be enough beyond that to achieve the goals I'm setting here.

Also, whatever kids Goku has becoming weaklings does not fit with what evidence there is in Dragon Ball at all. That is an extremely unlikely outcome. Bulma isn't a martial artist, and Trunks is plenty strong. I've seen no evidence Vegeta being a 'super elite' has any relevance on his power level or that of his children. If it did, Goten would not be a match for him and they wouldn't be able to fuse. Same goes for the quarter Saiyan children, Pan is flying as an infant, she's stupidly powerful. This assumption also does not compute.

Goku being a lifelong bachelor wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing. Gohan is never instrumental to the point he couldn't be replaced, particularly if there's another Saiyan around who isn't celibate. I also don't really see Goku being a lifelong bachelor. Dude is ripped, an absurdly nice guy, and would eventually get laid. Especially if he had someone playing wingman for him and pushing him to notice things he'd otherwise ignore.

I also would expect to get at least matched by the other saiyans eventually. However, earlier on in the series it would not be not beyond me to outdo them and stay a step ahead if what this premise we're presented with assumes is true.

We're not talking about ourselves just showing up out of nowhere. The premise is that you end up Yamcha, in an already trained body with martial arts skills. The premise we're working with here seems to include retaining whatever skills Yamcha has at the point we're taking over. We're not starting from zero, but are on a level near to where Goku is at the same point. We are a martial arts prodigy who has likely trained since they could walk and is combat hardened already. He's been living as a bandit up to that point and it's implied he's probably killed a few people. That's not confirmed, but he has at least beaten people and robbed them.

I also think you're overestimating Kurillin's power level later in the series. He's not weak, but I would say he's maybe, and it's a big maybe, around Captain Ginyu's level at best. Probably not even that strong, but close enough to give him a good fight. Frieza is likely still an enemy that would be beyond him even at that point. Yes, he hurt Cell, and that was impressive, but I also don't think he's quite as strong as you're suggesting.

I also see no reason why Trunks and the Time Corps would get involved. I wouldn't be a time anomaly. There's no time travel involved and if anything I would just be considered mildly psychic. I wouldn't be screwing with the time stream, but a natural part of the existing timeline given the premise.

I have no interest in writing this SI because you're right, it would be a boring SI piece of Gary Stu crap. I'm just commenting on the premise we've been given in the manga in regard to the assumptions it seems to be making. One of the big ones is that foreknowledge of the training, events, and characters gained only from the manga and anime can be put to use to become much stronger and influence events in our version of Yamcha's favor to dramatic effect.

If I was writing this, the MC would be a magnificent bastard and all sorts of new problems would crop up. What I'd write and what I'd actually attempt to do in this situation are two different things.

Honestly, I'd be a bit more of a tactical character, but also likely would keep up with Goku and Vegeta for the most part. Though, I also wouldn't say I'd necessarily be stronger, or even able to beat either of them one on one. At least not consistently. It is worth pointing out that if I did wish myself into being a Saiyan, it would also likely grant me their fighting instincts as well. That's part of being a Saiyan after all.

That isn't to say I'd have the same level of drive as either of them, but it would go a long way to mange keeping up and using what knowledge I have of the more advanced training to give a leg up to all the surviving saiyans and their offspring in the process. The basic premise assumes that knowing the manga is enough to get ahead of the curve at least. It's also worth pointing out that the main character dies because he's clumsy and falls down some stairs. He's not exactly a super martial artist prodigy himself to start with. He ends up in Yamcha's body while he's still a teen and brings down all the Saibamen at once without breaking a sweat during the Saiyan saga.

Boring or no, the 'rules' of Dragon Ball aren't that hard to grasp and can easily be turned in one's favor if one is aware of them according to the premise as presented. That might not make for a very interesting SI story premise, but it does seem to be what we're being presented with here.

That's part of why I'm finding this turn of events so amusing to begin with. It basically is a bad Gary Stu SI fanfic dojin that is getting an official publication.
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#11
someone post a link once this gets translated please
 

seitora

Well-Known Member
#13
Warning that there's a couple of shots of young boy dick because of course Japan
 

Stormfury

Well-Known Member
#14
One things to keep in mind about the chichi hate:

She's basically the strongest woman on the planet. The only woman who is stronger is 18, and she's an android. You can make arguments about Videl because she learned to fly, but Videl also trains on punching bags without breaking them while Chichi was throwing around cars in DB. She's also an actual princess who is content to spend all of her time cooking massive meals for Goku regardless of how neglectful of a husband he is.

Sure, you can try to force Goku to not marry her and try to "fix" Gohan's lack of training that way, but why? We know that Chichi is capable of giving birth to Saiyans of incredible potential, but we don't know if thats unique or not. Bulma did it too, of course, but the biggest complaint against her seems to be that she stops Gohan from training (and I don't remember her ever getting in the way of Goku's training), than focusing more on getting her to either let Gohan train or training Gohan in spite of her sounds like the much smarter route than throwing her to the wayside and hope you get someone better than Gohan.

People love to hate Chichi, but in the end Goku actually did pretty well for himself, all things considered. She handles all of his insanity and personality issues pretty dang well, and her main issue is that she wants Gohan to not be the complete dumbass his father is, a not-unreasonable goal. She goes too far with it obviously, but thats much easier to fix than killing her and hoping you can pull a better replacement out of your ass.
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#15
Stormfury said:
One things to keep in mind about the chichi hate:

She's basically the strongest woman on the planet.  The only woman who is stronger is 18, and she's an android.  You can make arguments about Videl because she learned to fly, but Videl also trains on punching bags without breaking them while Chichi was throwing around cars in DB.  She's also an actual princess who is content to spend all of her time cooking massive meals for Goku regardless of how neglectful of a husband he is.

Sure, you can try to force Goku to not marry her and try to "fix" Gohan's lack of training that way, but why?  We know that Chichi is capable of giving birth to Saiyans of incredible potential, but we don't know if thats unique or not.  Bulma did it too, of course, but the biggest complaint against her seems to be that she stops Gohan from training (and I don't remember her ever getting in the way of Goku's training), than focusing more on getting her to either let Gohan train or training Gohan in spite of her sounds like the much smarter route than throwing her to the wayside and hope you get someone better than Gohan.  

People love to hate Chichi, but in the end Goku actually did pretty well for himself, all things considered.  She handles all of his insanity and personality issues pretty dang well, and her main issue is that she wants Gohan to not be the complete dumbass his father is, a not-unreasonable goal.  She goes too far with it obviously, but thats much easier to fix than killing her and hoping you can pull a better replacement out of your ass.
She has all the markings of an abusive spouse and is an unreasonable sociopath.

Everyone in her family is afraid of her. They all walk on eggshells when she's around. She has a serious temper problem and isn't above using force or coercion to get her way. She's controlling and abusive and keeps her husband isolated from his friends and under her thumb. He runs off a lot, and it's mitigated some because she's friends with Bulma and she eventually relaxes a bit once they start settling down and starting families of their own. She never cares for any of his bachelor friends,.

She outright says she'd rather see the world destroyed than let her son save it.

People hate Chichi because she's a terrible character and person according to all evidence in the show. All the signs are there that she's a classic case of an abusive spouse. If she could actually hurt Goku she'd probably be physically abusive as well.

Again, that Chichi is somehow special in regard to having strong children goes against the evidence in the show. There's not really anything special about her in regard to her power over other well trained humans. I'd go so far as to say there are probably women stronger than her in the world. Lunch wasn't even a martial artist and was a much bigger threat to the cast than Chichi ever was. In fact, she's probably the weakest among the regular cast human fighters in the show. Goku initially beats her with just the air pressure from one of his punches. Even Yamcha could handle that much.

If she is the strongest human woman in the world, it's because her father trained her after being trained himself by Muten Roshi using the same methods.

Both Videl and Bulma throw a wrench into the idea that Gohan having the potential he does had anything to do with Chichi being the mother, it's all because Goku is the father. Pan is flying as an infant, and Videl isn't that strong, and Trunks and Goten are on equal terms. Videl isn't as weak as most women, but she's kind of pathetic compared to anyone else in the show with a significant role aside from Bulma.

There is zero reason to believe Chichi being the mother has anything to do with Gohan's potential as a fighter. If anything, she stunted his growth.

Chichi is also not a princess. She's the daughter of a notorious criminal and implied cannibal. Ox King never had a kingdom, he lived on a mountain with no one but his daughter and raided and extorted nearby settlements while robbing people who tried to travel by his mountain castle. Even that claim isn't much considering Roshi vaporized the entire mountain. According to all evidence in the show, he gave himself the title and called his daughter a princess and was never royalty of any sort in reality.

Besides, I never said anything about forcing Goku to do anything. I'd get rid of her beforehand and try to make sure it never came up. He didn't marry her because he fell in love with her, she basically trapped him and took advantage of the fact that he's a socially unaware idiot. He had no idea what was going on or what the crazy girl who he met once as a kid was going on about.

Getting rid of her isn't something I'd do just for the sake of Gohan's training. Pretty much everyone is better off without her, including Goku.
 
#16
I can't say it's true but from what I've heard on the subject she's much better in the manga.
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#17
NuitTombee said:
I can't say it's true but from what I've heard on the subject she's much better in the manga.
She gets less face time, but the signs that she's abusive, sociopathic, and delusional are still there. Same problems, just more subdued, and probably more because she's got less time in frame than anything else.

It's the same deal as Anime Akane vs Manga Akane in Ranma 1/2. She's more cartoonish and exaggerated in the show, but still an abusive and delusional sociopath in the manga.
 
#18
Contrabardus said:
Stormfury said:
One things to keep in mind about the chichi hate:

She's basically the strongest woman on the planet.  The only woman who is stronger is 18, and she's an android.  You can make arguments about Videl because she learned to fly, but Videl also trains on punching bags without breaking them while Chichi was throwing around cars in DB.  She's also an actual princess who is content to spend all of her time cooking massive meals for Goku regardless of how neglectful of a husband he is.

Sure, you can try to force Goku to not marry her and try to "fix" Gohan's lack of training that way, but why?  We know that Chichi is capable of giving birth to Saiyans of incredible potential, but we don't know if thats unique or not.  Bulma did it too, of course, but the biggest complaint against her seems to be that she stops Gohan from training (and I don't remember her ever getting in the way of Goku's training), than focusing more on getting her to either let Gohan train or training Gohan in spite of her sounds like the much smarter route than throwing her to the wayside and hope you get someone better than Gohan.  

People love to hate Chichi, but in the end Goku actually did pretty well for himself, all things considered.  She handles all of his insanity and personality issues pretty dang well, and her main issue is that she wants Gohan to not be the complete dumbass his father is, a not-unreasonable goal.  She goes too far with it obviously, but thats much easier to fix than killing her and hoping you can pull a better replacement out of your ass.
She has all the markings of an abusive spouse and is an unreasonable sociopath.

Everyone in her family is afraid of her. They all walk on eggshells when she's around. She has a serious temper problem and isn't above using force or coercion to get her way. She's controlling and abusive and keeps her husband isolated from his friends and under her thumb. He runs off a lot, and it's mitigated some because she's friends with Bulma and she eventually relaxes a bit once they start settling down and starting families of their own. She never cares for any of his bachelor friends,.

She outright says she'd rather see the world destroyed than let her son save it.

People hate Chichi because she's a terrible character and person according to all evidence in the show. All the signs are there that she's a classic case of an abusive spouse. If she could actually hurt Goku she'd probably be physically abusive as well.
Okay that's going a bit far, I don't like Chichi and think she's a bitch but calling her an abusive sociopath still strikes me as too much hate.

For her family fearing her, that's basically what you get from one of the Mom stereotypes in any sort of family oriented comedy sketch. It's the happy ditz, the party mom, the House Wife, or the Overly Strict Mom. Chichi is basically a wife to a deadbeat, Goku earns nothing and spends most of his time training or farming turnips (That's his actual occupation as shown in one of the OVA), at best he brings home food for them to eat, but given how much he eats it's pretty much a daily thing he needs to sustain. 

She's basically a single mom for about half the series time frame, For large parts of DBZ goku isn't there. Dead for a year after the start of Z, Goes to namek for I'm guessing about a month or so of time, followed up by another year or two until frieza shows back up, when he gets back then I'm guessing it's focusing on training to fight the androids, then spends the android/Cell saga either dying in his bed or training to kill cell, followed by about 7 years of being dead only to come back for one day to fight in a tournament.

As for her reluctance to let Gohan save the world, she's refusing to let her 4/5/10 year old son fight in a battle to the death. And here's the thing... She was right about it on Namek because Gohan's contributed next to nothing in the fights and nearly died (even had his neck broken by Recoome) as it was pretty much solved by Goku. And during the Cell Saga, everyone was counting on Goku to win, not Gohan, and were also telling him "No you idiot!" when Goku decided to have Gohan actually fight.

The one time I recall Chichi actively not wanting to do with one of Goku's friends is Piccolo, who if you recall she watched nearly murder her husband when they were teens and then later kidnapped her toddler for a year to fight in a death battle against people who were probably at least as strong as the man who killed her husband.

She may be a bitch, but she has her reasons and doesn't go as far as people think, and saying to kill her as a child because she wasn't nice and was a mild inconvenience to overcome is fucking horrible.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#19
You know, if I were to awaken in the Dragonball manga in Yamcha's body, I'd seriously consider just settling down and living a normal life. Despite what the kid in this self-insert manga seems to think, Yamcha's death-by-exploding-Saibaman was not destined to happen. In fact, I don't recall his help ever being essential to any major battle in the entire series. I'm fairly sure that every important event would have still happened pretty much the same way without his involvement... barring some crazy butterfly-effect type of situation where some minor thing he did not happening results in everything changing in wildly unpredictable ways. (and in that case you are probably fucked anyway, as any thing you do to help that diverges from the canon plot even a little is just as likely to ruin everything.)
 

H-Man

Random phantom.
#20
Altered Nova said:
You know, if I were to awaken in the Dragonball manga in Yamcha's body, I'd seriously consider just settling down and living a normal life. Despite what the kid in this self-insert manga seems to think, Yamcha's death-by-exploding-Saibaman was not destined to happen. In fact, I don't recall his help ever being essential to any major battle in the entire series. I'm fairly sure that every important event would have still happened pretty much the same way without his involvement... barring some crazy butterfly-effect type of situation where some minor thing he did not happening results in everything changing in wildly unpredictable ways. (and in that case you are probably fucked anyway, as any thing you do to help that diverges from the canon plot even a little is just as likely to ruin everything.)
Great, so, Kuririn dies to the Saibamen before he gets the chance to destroy them, leaving Piccolo and Gohan to fend off against Nappa after Tenshinhan and Chaos sacrifice themselves.

That's going to be a problem.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#21
Oh, did Yamcha save Krillin from being killed by the Saibamen? I haven't watched that scene in a long while, all I really remembered was Yamcha being cocky and dying like a bitch.
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#22
Master of Squirrel-Fu said:
Contrabardus said:
Stormfury said:
One things to keep in mind about the chichi hate:

She's basically the strongest woman on the planet.  The only woman who is stronger is 18, and she's an android.  You can make arguments about Videl because she learned to fly, but Videl also trains on punching bags without breaking them while Chichi was throwing around cars in DB.  She's also an actual princess who is content to spend all of her time cooking massive meals for Goku regardless of how neglectful of a husband he is.

Sure, you can try to force Goku to not marry her and try to "fix" Gohan's lack of training that way, but why?  We know that Chichi is capable of giving birth to Saiyans of incredible potential, but we don't know if thats unique or not.  Bulma did it too, of course, but the biggest complaint against her seems to be that she stops Gohan from training (and I don't remember her ever getting in the way of Goku's training), than focusing more on getting her to either let Gohan train or training Gohan in spite of her sounds like the much smarter route than throwing her to the wayside and hope you get someone better than Gohan.  

People love to hate Chichi, but in the end Goku actually did pretty well for himself, all things considered.  She handles all of his insanity and personality issues pretty dang well, and her main issue is that she wants Gohan to not be the complete dumbass his father is, a not-unreasonable goal.  She goes too far with it obviously, but thats much easier to fix than killing her and hoping you can pull a better replacement out of your ass.
She has all the markings of an abusive spouse and is an unreasonable sociopath.

Everyone in her family is afraid of her. They all walk on eggshells when she's around. She has a serious temper problem and isn't above using force or coercion to get her way. She's controlling and abusive and keeps her husband isolated from his friends and under her thumb. He runs off a lot, and it's mitigated some because she's friends with Bulma and she eventually relaxes a bit once they start settling down and starting families of their own. She never cares for any of his bachelor friends,.

She outright says she'd rather see the world destroyed than let her son save it.

People hate Chichi because she's a terrible character and person according to all evidence in the show. All the signs are there that she's a classic case of an abusive spouse. If she could actually hurt Goku she'd probably be physically abusive as well.
Okay that's going a bit far, I don't like Chichi and think she's a bitch but calling her an abusive sociopath still strikes me as too much hate.

For her family fearing her, that's basically what you get from one of the Mom stereotypes in any sort of family oriented comedy sketch. It's the happy ditz, the party mom, the House Wife, or the Overly Strict Mom. Chichi is basically a wife to a deadbeat, Goku earns nothing and spends most of his time training or farming turnips (That's his actual occupation as shown in one of the OVA), at best he brings home food for them to eat, but given how much he eats it's pretty much a daily thing he needs to sustain. 

She's basically a single mom for about half the series time frame,  For large parts of DBZ goku isn't there. Dead for a year after the start of Z, Goes to namek for I'm guessing about a month or so of time, followed up by another year or two until frieza shows back up, when he gets back then I'm guessing it's focusing on training to fight the androids, then spends the android/Cell saga either dying in his bed or training to kill cell, followed by about 7 years of being dead only to come back for one day to fight in a tournament.

As for her reluctance to let Gohan save the world, she's refusing to let her 4/5/10 year old son fight in a battle to the death. And here's the thing... She was right about it on Namek because Gohan's contributed next to nothing in the fights and nearly died (even had his neck broken by Recoome) as it was pretty much solved by Goku. And during the Cell Saga, everyone was counting on Goku to win, not Gohan, and were also telling him "No you idiot!" when Goku decided to have Gohan actually fight.

The one time I recall Chichi actively not wanting to do with one of Goku's friends is Piccolo, who if you recall she watched nearly murder her husband when they were teens and then later kidnapped her toddler for a year to fight in a death battle against people who were probably at least as strong as the man who killed her husband.

She may be a bitch, but she has her reasons and doesn't go as far as people think, and saying to kill her as a child because she wasn't nice and was a mild inconvenience to overcome is fucking horrible.
No, it isn't going too far. I'm being literal. She has all the markers of being a generally abusive person. Why doesn't matter or excuse it. All the important signs are there. I meant what I said when I suggested she probably would be physically abusive towards Goku if she could manage it.

Maybe the shit that happened early on in Z did break her, but that doesn't change what she ends up being because of it. She's sociopathic and delusional, and her coddling basically ruins Gohan as a character and wastes his true potential.

Was she really right? If all the other Saiyan children were any indication, he would have been useful had he been trained properly. She might have been right in the short term, but long term her attitude and the direction she pushed Gohan nearly destroyed everyone more than once. Gohan would have been able to handle things he couldn't because of her.

I would also argue that she should have known exactly what she was getting into with Goku. She knew damn well that he was an idiot before she married him. She also grew up in that culture.

It's also funny that you'd mention Piccolo in particular. He's probably the member of that group she gets along with best. He's Gohan's friend and mentor. She eventually warms up to Kurillin once he gets married, but basically hates all of Goku's other male friends. She seems to tolerate their presence when they all get together, but is pretty frosty towards them for the most part.

There is only one Dragon Ball OVA and it is a video game tie in thing. Pretty sure this isn't what you're talking about. It got remade or something and has two titles.

Aside from those two Dragon Ball only has movies and TV specials, neither of which are OVAs. The movies are never canon, and only two the TV specials are. So anything you saw in them doesn't matter in relation to being canon. There are only two TV specials that relate to Z and both are canon, one relates to Bardok and the other Future Trunks. The others are a GT thing and a crossover thing with One Piece and Toriko.

[video=youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wkw0MLm87UQ[/video]

The family does farm turnips though, as the first few episodes of Dragon Ball Super spend a fair amount of time showing this. I'm just pointing out that it's not a good idea to cite the movies as evidence in a discussion like this. It will almost always get shot down by anyone who knows what they're talking about.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#23
Contrabardus said:
...Same goes for Gohan's training with Piccolo. That's what turns him from an enemy with a mutual problem into a tsundere ally later in the series.

I'd also be sure to cock block Chichi and set Goku up with someone else....
You understand these are mutually exclusive right?




Anyway if it was me I'd probably tag along and train hard enough to be in the same league as Krillian, a solid B-tier fighter.

BUT

Then after Namek when there are Actual For-Real Spaceships available and I was really going to fall behind the power-level treadmill and become totally superfluous, I would take one of the now-available spaceships and fuck off and have a planet-of-the-week space opera adventure across the galaxy.

That seems a lot more interesting, although there's probably a huge chaotic power vacuum with Freeza gone, I also wouldn't really have to worry about getting my face smashed in.
 

Contrabardus

Well-Known Member
#24
daniel_gudman said:
Contrabardus said:
...Same goes for Gohan's training with Piccolo. That's what turns him from an enemy with a mutual problem into a tsundere ally later in the series.

I'd also be sure to cock block Chichi and set Goku up with someone else....
You understand these are mutually exclusive right?




Anyway if it was me I'd probably tag along and train hard enough to be in the same league as Krillian, a solid B-tier fighter.

BUT

Then after Namek when there are Actual For-Real Spaceships available and I was really going to fall behind the power-level treadmill and become totally superfluous, I would take one of the now-available spaceships and fuck off and have a planet-of-the-week space opera adventure across the galaxy.

That seems a lot more interesting, although there's probably a huge chaotic power vacuum with Freeza gone, I also wouldn't really have to worry about getting my face smashed in.
Not necessarily, if Piccolo trains whatever kid fills Gohan's role the result would likely be similar. There would probably still be a Gohan given my premise, it just wouldn't be Chichi's son, and he'd likely be more confident and better able to deal with training and being under fire. Goku named him after his grandfather after all, on the only reason I see that the name might change that is if "Gohan" was born a girl.

I also see no reason that would affect the child's potential given Pan's apparent abilities.

Even if not, I would not likely be celibate, and would likely try to manipulate things so that Piccolo trained whatever half saiyan there was. I don't see any good reason to think that Gohan in particular was the cause of it, but rather Piccolo being forced to look after and take care of someone for a while and learning to care about someone else. It just happened to be Gohan.

Honestly, I think things would still pan out the same way eventually even if he didn't have to train someone that way. Piccolo being forced to merge with both Nail and Kami helped with that a lot as well, plus he does grow to like the other Z fighters eventually. Even if he did stay evil for a while, which I doubt he would after the events of Namek, he wouldn't be much of a threat, if only because things like Cell and Buu would keep forcing him to side with the others for the sake of his own self preservation. Even during the time between he wouldn't be anything that the Saiyans couldn't handle, that's why he merged with Kami to begin with, because he'd hit a wall and couldn't keep up with everyone else to fight Cell without merging again.

Gohan accelerated this process, but I don't think he was the only cause in the end. He'd still calm down, just not as quickly or dramatically.
 

Altered Nova

Well-Known Member
#25
It's pretty unfair to blame Gohan not reaching his true potential entirely on Chichi. Wanting your child to get an education, and find a good job, and generally be a productive member of society with useful skills beyond just punching things are not exactly the hallmarks traits of a sociopath. It's not her fault that she didn't realize she lives in a Shonen manga where a new villain ten times more powerful than the last who is always intent on destroying the Earth shows up every few years like clockwork.

Also Gohan could have ignored his mom's advice and ran off to train pretty much anytime he wanted to after Namek, and after Namek he damn well should have understood just how brutal his world was and how much being strong was necessary. But he has a gentle personality, dislikes fighting and actually loves studying. So it would be more appropriate to blame him for not reaching his own potential, rather than his mother. He understood the stakes better than her and still avoided training his martial arts skills whenever he could.

(Although in the Dragonball Online/Xenoverse canon, he did become a scientist and his widely published research on the science of ki manipulation resulted in a worldwide boom in martial arts popularity among normal people, massively increasing the average power level of the entire race. So his nerdiness was actually a hugely useful thing in the video game universes!)
 
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