Nasuverse Kariya's Legacy Ideas

Rising Dragon

Well-Known Member
#26
The issue of dipping a Servant in that muck is that it would normally drive them completely insane; Gilgamesh turned out like he was after his dunking purely on account of his massive ego. Someone like Shinji sure as hell wouldn't survive that psychologically intact.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#27
Yeah, that going to be a hurdle. If I kept Medea alive at this point I could say that she has a spell that would materialize his Wraith form without needed the much, but she is the Witch of Betrayal for a reason....

Then again, Sakura could just keep him in his Servant state like Rider from the HF ending.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
#28
Leidolf said:
Yeah, that going to be a hurdle. If I kept Medea alive at this point I could say that she has a spell that would materialize his Wraith form without needed the much, but she is the Witch of Betrayal for a reason....

Then again, Sakura could just keep him in his Servant state like Rider from the HF ending.
Alternatively, he could be reincarnated as AM's brother, if she's giving birth to (the human sacrificed as) AM.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#29
Yeah, but I kinda wanted him to end up with Ayako in a romantic sense. Kinda hard to do if there's an eighteen year gap, although I can picture her teaching Little Shinji how to shoot a bow. Actually, how much of his knowledge would he retain if he was incarnated like that? Would it push out the soul of the child that had yet to be born before his own soul could push a template onto the body...

On a closer issue, when Ilya kidnaps Shirou again and Shinji and Rin have to go on a rescue mission, since Shinji needs Saber intact to deal with Caster, and all three have to work to take down Berserker since Shinji tried killing Ilya when she originally attacked Shirou when he went to the Church to register (two chapters if I get that right) and it led to a rift when it came to the aftermath, namely Shirou points out what he would do if it was his Sister (so Wraith!Shinji will point of the Hypocrisy) I intend for him and Rin to go against one of the Maids Ilya has since I was watching Fate Unlimited Code exhibition and wondered how it would sound?
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#30
If you see a Servant's abilities, it gets registered in the Master's contract to enable them to look up the information (Servant Sheet) automatically, correct? So if you guess the Servant's identity because of this, should all the rest of their abilities and parameters be uncovered? I'm trying to get this right to see if Shinji, in my fanfic, could ID the servants he had seen before like Caster and Lancer.
 

Wavelet365

Well-Known Member
#31
Leidolf said:
If you see a Servant's abilities, it gets registered in the Master's contract to enable them to look up the information (Servant Sheet) automatically, correct? So if you guess the Servant's identity because of this, should all the rest of their abilities and parameters be uncovered? I'm trying to get this right to see if Shinji, in my fanfic, could ID the servants he had seen before like Caster and Lancer.
This is not how it works in the visual novel. I just checked Berserker in the Fate Route. You find out he's Hercules on Day 3 or 4, but can't see the Twelve Labours on Day 9. However, it might give you everything but noble phantasms you haven't seen before.

Essentially, when you see a servant, you instantly see parameters and class skills. Then, as they use personal skills and NPs, you can see these. Learning their true identity does not show you their NPs, although, if you knew enough mythology, maybe you could guess them. I think true name does, however, show you personal skills (or so it seems from loading a few FSN save files).
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#33
On the next chapter, here's the outline I have planned:
-Shinji goes to the Church to register for the grail war and on his way out he and Lu Bu discuss some of the circumstances of the war, namely that Eastern Servants and Anti-Heroes are able to be summoned after discerning Lancer's identity because he cross-referenced the Hounds of Ulster and the use of magic with a spear wielding hero. Shinji reasons that the grail being 200 years old and never been claimed has led to some parts of it breaking down, such as the Servant system that filters out those categorized as Eastern or Anti-Heroes. He also states that Eastern Servants were at both an unfair advantage and disadvantage in that it would be much easier to recognize the heroes who would also receive bonuses to their territory, likewise back then tales wouldn't be as easy to hear because technology hadn't advanced to the point it had today.

- We then go to Sakura who thinks more on circumstances and had basically begged Shinji to let her help him in some other way, so he put her on mission control by monitoring his map as he set up receivers throughout the city to track the flow of excess amounts of mana. She calls him when she sees a rather large amount moving towards the mountain.

- Shinji gears up from his second hideaway, the Sewers where the Caster from the last war operated, and they go to find Medea's potion at work. Shinji tries to contain it, reasoning that it had to be made of modern materials and if he could discern it then it could prove to be of use, as well as the fact that it could be needed as a bargaining chip for the alliance should Shirou's Servant be unwilling, pointing out Caster becoming too strong wouldn't end well for anyone. He gets attacked by some bone mooks, but they deal with it when Lu Bu goes off to kill Caster because he sees her cowardice as an affront.

- Lu Bu encounters Assassin on the mountain and they get into it, with Assassin being too smooth to hit with Halberd form and him being unable to close in the distance for martial arts without the risk of losing his head. He jumps back and fires using Bow form, but Assassin emerges to cut him down as he shifts to another form when Caster uses her magic to paralyze space. Assassin wants to fight fairly, but she orders him to cut Rider down using a Command Seal right before Rider vanishes.

- Shinji summoned Rider back when he saw him being sealed and explained that he gets that Rider wants a one-on-one fight to prove he's the mightest, but it wasn't going to happen with Caster running around and he tells him that if he wants to fight alone the that's fine and he wouldn't interfere again, but only if its one-on-one, and at least wait until they have Shirou's Servant tomorrow so they can try again with one going after Caster and the other handling Assassin.

- Skip to Rin after getting Archer and the walk around where Archer thinks to himself that he’s heard all that before and Sakura is talking to Gilgamesh, who is telling her to kill herself, but notes that she never had the hair decoration before, while Sakura is hanging up flyers.

- When Archer asks if there are any other Masters in the war at her school possibly, noting the lack of Rider’s boundary field, she says that she can imagine one who would most likely avoid fighting. To be sure she visits the Archery club when Ayako greets her and tells her that Sakura had to take care of Shinji today at home while Emiya works diligently (bandages on his hand since Shinji told him to cover up so they could use the element of surprise), to whom Archer glares until Rin leaves.

- After school she intends to go register at the church with Kotomine (who contacted her and said the war won’t officially begin until the last Servant is summoned and he gets attacked by Lancer as she’s heading back home. The fight continues on until Kirei tells him to leave as the final Servant has been summoned.

How does that look? Any thoughts or advice on it?
 

dyslexicfaser1

Well-Known Member
#34
About Lu Bu, given he killed or attempted to kill every lord (and father) he had, he desperately needs the Independent Action skill. I'd switch out Military Tactics for that; he wasn't actually a great general, getting by on the peerless warrior thing.

I'd also have his NP be a bow rather than the transforming halberd; Koei focuses on the halberd, but the historical Lu Bu supposedly ended a battle by going, 'Hey, watch me shoot this tiny thing' and then doing it. Everyone was so impressed they threw him a party and went home.

The chapter outline seems fine, though I'm not really a fan of the Shinji and Shirou teamup.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#35
I'm going by his mostly wikia stats with some mild variations from Fate/Extra. If he was summoned in Archer class then he would have gained those (although I did have plans to use the Command Seals to break the class barrier Fate/Apocrypha style Double-Class) but it really depends on whether or not I can reasonably get an extra Command Seal for him....although to be fair, Kotomine will probably be willing to part with one considering he seems to enjoy suffering and Shinji's probably going to end up suffering as bad as his Uncle, and there's no fruit sweeter than the one that makes you fall....
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#36
Can I get some input on this?

For Shinji's Magecraft, so he doesn't get completely curbstomped by Rin and I can have some variety beyond explosions, I grabbed an idea from Tokyo Ravens, because of the duel between Jin and Douma.

The idea is that using the Wu Xing, Shinji can power up his elemental spells by feeding the previous one to the new one in order to power it up. In Nasuverse terms, the talismans are used like Runes for elemental conversion because of the Fuwen written on them, but by interacting with one another the prana used to make up the previous element is converted to the new element on top of that with no loss.

Ex.) Level.1 Wood Shenfu+ Level.1 Fire Shenfu = Level.2 Fire (Fira Spell - Final Fantasy)


I thought it might be a good counter for Rin because she has ten years worth of prana stored into her jewels for magecraft so they can equal an A-Rank attack and a Crest, but Shinji can only directly cover his prana into an element using the talisman or mystic code, and it will never match her on that front. So he operates through laying traps, such as using talismans with the same effect in great numbers to have a cumulative effect or transmuting his prana into water and sending it toward her as a sphere, only for a wood talisman to turn it into a snaring set of ivy to entrap her, and then a fire talisman to make it all burn. At the same time, using an Overcoming cycle causes it to explode violently as the prana is destabilized, so the greater the number of stacked effects, the bigger the bomb.

How does this sound?
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#37
Just had an amazing idea to darken the story: Shinji teams up with Caster.
• As the fighting continues, Sakura’s condition worsens after consuming Lancer and to soothe the ache she begins to devour people. Gilgamesh intervenes and gets eaten, while Caster observes from a distance.

• Shriou talks to Shinji about the number of people disappearing, and Shinji resorts to using the reverse engineered version of Caster’s gas that sucks out their od but not their souls, realizing he’s crossed a line but it’s for Sakura’s sake as she’s too sick to leave the house. Caster then communicates with him, explaining that he cannot save his sister by showing him the image of Gilgamesh and that it’s his sister who is responsible for those disappearances.

• Caster then tells him that she can save him, and his sister, by explaining the Greater Grail’s purpose and the Lesser Grail and how Sakura is acting as one. By consuming the Servants she sates her appetite for a time, and with a guiding hand they can use her curse to win the grail and then purify her of the influence. When asked why, she removes her hood to show her face, she tells him that she never used the things she did in life but she only wants to remain in this world with her Master and doesn’t yearn to be the monster she was made out to be.

• He says he’s in no position to throw stones after what he’s done and agrees on the condition that she kills his Grandfather who’s holding their leash. She agrees and let’s her stab him with Rule Breaker, allowing her to take control of his Servant before gives him what amounts to Greek Fire, burning down the manor as he takes Sakura away to Caster, who makes it so that the worms in her body and around her heart are safely removed while usurping control. She then tells Rider that he no longer has a reason to hold back and they will fight Saber next. Shinji asks that he set the battlefield.

• Shinji lures Saber and Shirou into a trap using Rider, allowing them to fight so they’re in a position for the shadows to get them. Before Shirou can intervene, Shinji shoots him in the legs and tells him his fight is over as Caster arrives and takes Shinji and the Shadow away. This leaves with Archer and Rin coming too late and they take Emiya into their care. They discuss matters, and agree that Shinji and Sakura need to be killed and Emiya goes to fight as well, blaming it all on Caster.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#38
More idea for the ending of the fanfic:

Shinji and Sakura leave Fuyuki to stay with their Aunt, with Rin taking charge as the Second Owner and kicking them out for what they've done--partly because she knows that Shinji won't live much longer due to the strain of the battle and because she wants them to spend whatever time they have left together since she couldn't be the sister she was supposed to. Rin still has Archer, who decided to stay because this version of Rin had no one else in her life, and Shirou is left shouldering the burdens of what happened as an Enforcer, working to support treatments to preserve Ilya’s life.

I'm trying to go with everyone important lived, but all of them have to bear with the weight of their actions.

1.) Shirou couldn't save everyone and ultimately let Sakura and Shinji walk despite everything, but he can keep Ilya alive and fulfill his Father's wish. By working as an Enforcer he can afford treatments to sustain her life and ultimately give her a regular lifespan.

2.) Sakura went Shadow and basically munched a couple hundred people and Shinji wouldn't put her out of her misery, but he's going to die and Sakura will know its because of her.

3.) Shinji started draining the life out of people to ease her suffering, becoming no better than his Grandfather in that they take lives to attain their own goal, and ultimately betrays Shirou in order to free them from their grandfather, who was the closest thing he had to a friend. Then maybe kill off Ayako, but I don't want to because I like her, yet I feel the story would be greater for it.

4.) And Rin has no one else close to her in life any more barring Archer, and will live wondering what could have been if she had been nicer to Sakura.


Anyone want to put some input into this?
 
#39
Ok, first let me say that i love the story you are doing. I thought that the original story went to far to show shinji as a jerk and i was searching so see if there was at least one fanfic who had him as a good guy, i wasnt dissapointed.
The way you managed to keep his personality while having him be likeable guy is great.

As for that ending, its okey if you want a dark end but Shinji turning into his grandfather is awful, his goal was to save Sakura, kill Zouken and redeem his family dark history. He went through so much suffering for that that ending would make everithing meaningless.
If you really really want an end like that him choosing death would be better and then Sakura would live a life looking for the happiness they both should have had, were a few years later we have her in the park were she and the aunt are playing with a boy called shinji and you left the answere if the kid is shinji´s or from some other men that sakura fell in love later as open ended or something like that.
I think that at the very least sakura should be happy, even if he has to die, as a reward for his suffering.


As for the thing about teaming up with caster, it seem pretty good. I read her back story in Ataraxia and she could have a soft spot for this shinji that she doesn't ends up betraying him but the rin vs shinji duel and sakura going to the dark side when he is almost killed is too good to let it pass. See if you finf a way to mix those two.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#40
First, thanks for commenting. When I came up the story, that was my reason for doing so as well.

The point is for him to reach a point of desperation where he's willing to damn anyone and anything to save Sakura, only for Caster to call him out on it and he realizes he's falling to the point of doing exactly as his grandfather would and being moved like a puppet on a string. Basically, pursuing a goal without anyone to keep you in check and turn even saints into sinners. Kariya lost his mind and choked the woman he loved to death in trying to save Sakura. Even Zouken wasn't as bad when he started, but over the years he's forgotten who he was. Shinji's obsession with helping Sakura was slowly turning him into a monster because he knew he wasn't long for this world and he grew desperate.

This leads to their team-up, because both want the same thing, to be with the people they love, but if they work together they won't need to become absolute monsters in order to do it. With Sakura's shadow under her command, Caster thinks she could easily win the war and, at the same time, relates to how the gods twisted her into a monster like how Angra Mayu is doing the same to Sakura. Caster's Rule Breaker is the key to saving Sakura, so once they've gotten the grail she can break the contract and everyone gets what they wanted. Granted, when Kazuki snuffs it that's going to go south and she'll go the end of the world route, but both Shirou and Archer will be there so they can trace it.
 
#41
Well, if it is in the middle of the story when shinji starts to go down the dark path and hurting people then its fine,though killing ayako may be too much, attacking her from behind could be good since you can have her go for shinji ignorant that he is responsible creating a new source of pain for him.
At first i thought you meant this was what happened in the ending which sounded a lot like a Bad End, and then you go to the tiger dojo.
It reminded me to the Man of Steal ending were shiro lets sakura die, rin kills her and everyone ends up sad and broken.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#42
No, Shinji doesn't kill her. If I have her die at all. I don't want to stuff her into a refrigerator since that's ultimately not good story-telling, but if she were to die in the crossfire or by Sakura's shadow that was something I was exploring.
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
#43
Leidolf said:
More idea for the ending of the fanfic:
...

I'm trying to go with everyone important lived, but all of them have to bear with the weight of their actions.
...

Anyone want to put some input into this?
I think the ending should be a little happier; as it stands, it's kind of like, "why should Shinji have even bothered if things didn't turn out better? Becoming a good guy didn't really fix anything." It's too bleak, thematically.

My advice: reduce Sakura's bodycount, probably even down to zero (she drains people but doesn't nom them?) so that, among Shinji, Sakura, and Shirou, they can forgive each other after it's all over.

...Or rather, why have Shirou and Shinji betray each other at all? Saber would be okay with their pre-agreed cooperation because she's super-honorable, but there's still the question of "hey uh which Servant gets the Grail?" That's definitely a conversation each Master should have with their Servant.

If there's anyone in this story who should be betraying and murdering the people he's working with, it's Lu Bu, like dyslexicphaser said; it was like the dude was addicted to it, in legend. He should backstab Shinji as soon as it becomes obvious that Shinji's not going to screw over Shirou, and that if they just let their Servants fight it out between them in the end, then he'll probably lose.

...Especially if you're going to have "Assassin, Servant of Caster" demonstrating in the next chapter that there are totally ways to get around the whole "Master Required" thing.

That might be the best way to have everything suddenly go to hell just when it looks like they're totally on top of things are are the winning Team: Lu Bu is like "right time for Phase Two" and chops off Shinji's arm for the Seals, and then either finishes the kid off or gets driven off; shit, maybe he leaves the kid alive to remain his Master as a technicality (bonus: if Shinji stops feeding him prana, then Lu Bu will be like "whelp guess I'll have to eat innocent people instead lol"), and there's fuck-all Shinji can do to stop him when Lu Bu took the Seals.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#44
Shinji doesn't feed him prana though, Sakura's doing the heavy-lifting while Shinji's going into the firing squad through Shared Mastership, so if he dies she gets the seals and has been told to immediately order Lu Bu to kill himself. I'm trying to paint a picture where Shinji wants to be better than his Uncle and Father, only to end up falling into the same pattern because Zouken has been playing the long game, yet is narrowly able to avoid the same end... Kariya's Legacy is that that he succeeded where his Uncle failed at a greater cost.

My idea was that Saber and Rider's masters have an agreement for an alliance, and when they're the only two left behind they'll duke it out. Shirou has no wish of his own with the grail, though Shinji does have some reservations that it might change. Though I can soften the kill count I guess. Sakura doesn't need to kill if her mere presence as the shadow has a draining effect on normals.

And I really like the team-up of Caster and Shinji in my head. Maybe the betrayal-addict convinces him from a pragmatic point of view... Well, I should have Lu Bu stab him in the back at some point, but I was counting on Shinji getting a pre-emptive stab.
 
#45
A pre-emptive stab sounds better. Lets give Lu a taste of his own medicine plus we get to see some shinji badassery
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#46
Currently getting back into writing this, but came up with an idea for a spell I want to run by the Nasu-wisemen of the forum. Onmyoudo has weather manipulation as a trait, so one spell I want to have Shinji engineer near the end of the war is the ability to summon a true lightning bolt with the preparation being that the ritual summons a thunder cloud.

The ritual would end up gathering enough moisture inside of a bounded field and then raise it up into the air using heat until it reached a cold pocket further up, at the second layer of the bounded field to cool into a storm cloud. From there, he would use his prana to control the flow of the step-leader and streamers so that the bolt struck the marked target. Unlike using the lightning element, it's a true thunder cloud so the lightning hits fast enough that there is no dodging it. I think it would take about an hour to form normally, but the prana for maintaining it would require him to leech off a leyline or the equivalent.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#47
Okay, for the next chapter, I'm debating on how to have it go.

The first part is Lancer vs Rider, in which Lancer is using his rune magecraft to enhance his hounds while laying traps for Rider before supercharging his spear with prana from a rune circle and then hawking it at him. I'm thinking that Lu Bu should be able to tank it well because of his magic resistence but not too well before he starts hammering away at Lancer, tripping his luck check into a berserker state. From there, Rider calls Red Hare to trample him (sort of like the Rider of the previous war ran over lancelot). He retreats into astral form by Kirei's orders, and Lu Bu states that whether he fled or not he'd won.

And then Shinji tells Rider to get back there because Hercules is there.

The second part is Saber vs Archer, the latter of whom barely holds her back, allowing Archer to figure out that she has a complete connection with Shirou. He breaks away and warns her that Berkerserk is nearing her master before falling down from the building and going into Astral Form after shooting her with an arrow that explodes when she jumps after him. Saber then starts to run back to where Shirou is.

The third part is Shirou telling her that Kiritsugu wanted to save her and he promised to do so. She tells him that she'll listen to him once she has his head and orders Berserker to get him as Rider shows up. Shinji tries to get Shirou to retreat, but he won't go because he has to try and reach out to her. Ilya then points out that neither of them are escaping before unleashing her familiars at them, leaving them to try and fend them off while Rider gets both his arms torn off by Berserker. Shinji forces him into astral form before he can die and tells Shirou to summon Saber. He does and Saber picks up the battle while Shirou tries to reach out to her again, but Ilya doesn't want to hear it so she orders one familiar to go into sword form and it skewers him, causing Shinji to scream his name and Saber to kill Berserker once with Invisible Air to get to his side.

Even skewered, he tries to tell her that he wants her to come with him and Ilya says it's boring listening to the ramblings of someone about to die before dismissing the familiar and letting him bleed out. Shinji says that he can save him as long as he's alive. The Berserker comes back to life and Shinji has Bashe swallow him and Emiya by forcibly taking control of it while Saber remains behind. Ilya waits for them to go before telling Berserker to take her home and warning Saber that the next time she meets them she'll kill them all.

The final part is Ilya walking home and deep in thought about his words.

How does that sound?
 

fallacies

Well-Known Member
#48
I haven't had a chance to read the fic yet, but if you want commentary, have you tried posting it to Beasts' Lair (click link)? Since TFF's Nasu section is kind of dead. You might get more responses for your fic there.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
#49
Not sure what thread to post on there since I only use the updates thread. Nice work on the Worm x FSN fanfic, BTW.
 

fallacies

Well-Known Member
#50
You can make a new thread and post actual fic chapters, or plotting stuff. People will reply.
 
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