Nasuverse Let's talk about FRO!

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
NMR-3 said:
Makes me wonder how viable Icarus is as a Servant, really.
Given the choice, I'd prefer Daedalus. Icarus, IIRC, is only known for flying on wings his father made, and ignoring his father's advice, which got him killed.
 
Prince Charon said:
NMR-3 said:
Makes me wonder how viable Icarus is as a Servant, really.
Given the choice, I'd prefer Daedalus.  Icarus, IIRC, is only known for flying on wings his father made, and ignoring his father's advice, which got him killed.
Plus daedalus probably has other NP's including but not limited to the Labyrinth, making him a clearly superior heroic spirit to his son who has only one. hes the superior heroic spirit no matter what way you look at it. though i think he'd have a different class-preference (Icarus seems like a rider, while Daedelus' most famous feats are inventing those wings, which would fall under the Item Creation skill, and creating the Labyrinth which would fall under territory creation making him a Caster first and a Rider second. Though lets admit that logic wont aply because EMIYA's UBW's nature falls under creating an own reality and creating artifacts,aka Territory and Item creation, making him a Caster-preferenced Heroic Spirit as well.)
 

daniel_gudman

KING (In Land of Blind)
Staff member
Heroic Spirits can be "qualified" for more than one Class.

Hercules, for example, is canonically qualified for five classes -- all of the Standard Seven, less Assassin and Caster. (And I'm not even sure he's DQ'd from Caster).

Likewise, Cu Chulainn is qualified as Caster as well, on account of his Runes -- he's just a better fit for Lancer.

And there has been speculation from Nasu on how Rider!Medea would work out.

So most people assume that EMIYA is actually qualified to be summoned as a Caster -- but because he's more associated with swordfighting and shooting (swords or bullets or whatever) as a "Heroic Spirit" while he was only a C- in Orthodox Magecraft, it's more that Archer is a better class for him than Caster. (Because Emiya Shirou's origin is "Sword", I think he might also auto-qualify as a Saber just as a thaumaturgic loophole as much as anything to do with his "Legend").

In terms of "Inventor Heroes", probably best-suited to the Caster Class, I think Archimedes would be more interesting than Daedalus -- a total defense type that can turn your home base into an invincible fortress with bullshit magitech deathlazors and stuff.

(To pull this back to FRO, I have batted around the idea of a Floor Boss that's basically a knock-off of Archimedes, but that's like, super-uncertain).
 

Revlid

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
Heroic Spirits can be "qualified" for more than one Class.

Hercules, for example, is canonically qualified for five classes -- all of the Standard Seven, less Assassin and Caster. (And I'm not even sure he's DQ'd from Caster).
Herakles never made much sense as being disqualified from Caster, to me. The guy's more famous for using Item Creation (Nemean Cloak, Olive Club, Hydra Arrows, Bird Rattle) than, say, Riding.

He's only disqualified from Assassin by the Hassan rule, which is a dumb rule that's been ignored as hard as possible in basically every Type Moon work except Fate/Zero.

daniel_gudman said:
So most people assume that EMIYA is actually qualified to be summoned as a Caster -- but because he's more associated with swordfighting and shooting (swords or bullets or whatever) as a "Heroic Spirit" while he was only a C- in Orthodox Magecraft, it's more that Archer is a better class for him than Caster. (Because Emiya Shirou's origin is "Sword", I think he might also auto-qualify as a Saber just as a thaumaturgic loophole as much as anything to do with his "Legend").
I'd peg EMIYA for Archer, Saber, Caster, Berserker, Lancer on a technicality, and non-Hassan Assassin.

Archer's still his best class, though.

Saber has clear links, but would ultimately be trading Independent Action and a boosted Clairvoyance rank for an extra pip of Strength and Magic Resistance, neither of which EMIYA has a huge use for on account of being a massive wimp. Caster would be a boost to his tracing and Reality Marble thanks to Item Construction and Territory Creation, but nerf his physical stats and energy efficiency even further into the ground, so it wouldn't be worth it. Berserker would be a weird esoteric summon with Mad Enhancement EX (Beast of Alaya), and thereby end badly for his Master and everyone in a large radius. Lancer is a class his Master would have to try deliberately summoning him into, and I have no idea why they'd bother, because while he can wield a magic spear it's decidedly not his forte.

And non-Hassan Assassin works because he was an unknown hero and saboteur who likely pulled a page or two from dad's playbook, especially if EXTRA's flashbacks to a sniper-rifle-toting Shirou on his way to becoming EMIYA are at all accurate.

daniel_gudman said:
In terms of "Inventor Heroes", probably best-suited to the Caster Class, I think Archimedes would be more interesting than Daedalus -- a total defense type that can turn your home base into an invincible fortress with bullshit magitech deathlazors and stuff.

(To pull this back to FRO, I have batted around the idea of a Floor Boss that's basically a knock-off of Archimedes, but that's like, super-uncertain).
Archimedes actually has a Servant design, now. He's going to be one of the playable characters in Extella.

His character design looks like a Kingdom Hearts OC, but his attack animations are cool.

Certainly, he seems like he'd play well with FRO's psychics engine and Dwarf Fortress shenanigans, if you wanted a Trap Floor.

Or, more appropriate to his legend, a Siege Floor using a copy of a stronghold built by the [Dead Players].
 
daniel_gudman said:
Heroic Spirits can be "qualified" for more than one Class.

Hercules, for example, is canonically qualified for five classes -- all of the Standard Seven, less Assassin and Caster. (And I'm not even sure he's DQ'd from Caster).

Likewise, Cu Chulainn is qualified as Caster as well, on account of his Runes -- he's just a better fit for Lancer.

And there has been speculation from Nasu on how Rider!Medea would work out.

So most people assume that EMIYA is actually qualified to be summoned as a Caster -- but because he's more associated with swordfighting and shooting (swords or bullets or whatever) as a "Heroic Spirit" while he was only a C- in Orthodox Magecraft, it's more that Archer is a better class for him than Caster. (Because Emiya Shirou's origin is "Sword", I think he might also auto-qualify as a Saber just as a thaumaturgic loophole as much as anything to do with his "Legend").

In terms of "Inventor Heroes", probably best-suited to the Caster Class, I think Archimedes would be more interesting than Daedalus -- a total defense type that can turn your home base into an invincible fortress with bullshit magitech deathlazors and stuff.

(To pull this back to FRO, I have batted around the idea of a Floor Boss that's basically a knock-off of Archimedes, but that's like, super-uncertain).
i understand that Heroic spirits qualify for more classes, it was actually just meant as a thought exercise and a character analasis kind of deal.

i doubt you could turn Archimedes into an interresting boss. while his inventions might make for interresting "phases" most are just made of paper on wood, and the most interresting objects he designed were just theoretical in his day and were never built (untill Discovery channel made a show about building his unbuilt designs, or was that davinci?

but if we are speaking of awesome inventions and Inventor Heroic Spirits, you might want to look into the guy who designed the Hwatcha (i KNOW i didnt spell it right) and see if he built anything else?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hwacha (just skimmed it,to lazy for intensive research but both Choe Museon, Choi Hae-san, and the guy who SOUNDS like Sejong the Great, sound like potentially interresting characters).
i personally find it quite dissapointing that Nasu seems so focussed on Western mythology and Historical Characters in who gets to be shown, I would really like to see some Asian inventions and Heroes, like that Alchemist who invented gunpowder trying to become immortal, wouldnt HE make an interresting Heroic Spirit?
Also didnt Admiral Yi end up inventing a new type of turtleship and basically turn this one Island into a factory? because that sounds like item and territory creation, letting him qualify for the discussion while stilll seeming like a "Boss fight" type of legend. (does that make sense?)

Full disclosure: I just woke up, and am to tired to factcheck this. and i assume that you'll read this before i get "awake enough" to do so. my apologies for any mistakes.
 

Tyrantviewer

Well-Known Member
A creator hero I would like to see is Weylund the Smith- who like Daedalus was captured and forced to make things for kings, and then escaped on wings of his own creation- but Weylond did it several times, with variants of the legend having various people that employed him mutilating him after so he couldn't surpass what he made for them, there is a nice expy of him in the first Discworld book that made a crude spaceship before his last employer killed him, and at that point he had replaced his hands and eyes with prostetics.

As a Servant Weylund would have high level if not EX item creation, along with being basically a magic cyborg with robo wings as a potential phantasm.

While on the subject of inventor/creator heros, I hate servant Edison- why lion head, why super buff, why BLESSING OF THE PRESIDENTS, I know edison is overhyped in real life but come on Nasu, why did you do this?

ON to floor bosses- Maybe we are due a Minion commander/wolfpack boss? The Orc king was more of a wandering danger amidst his army, but a boss that had minions that it commanded could be interesting (I just started replaying Overlord if you can't guess) It could be used to take advantage of the developing familiar strategies, and force players to develop more tactics around that... Maybe a Magus with minions, or have the hinted at floor event on the orc floor involve more tactics and strategy...

What ever happened to Laughing Coffin's orc village? When the King died did that effect the other orcs? Could thier leader qualify to take the role of the next Orc king because of his usurped power? It could be time to follow up on them since their Demon jsut got killed and rumors of it may be spreading soon
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
daniel_gudman said:
Prince Charon said:
Hmm. So, which if these would 'fanfic ideas inspired by FRO' go in? Here, the Ideas thread, or another new thread?
Probably this thread instead of Ideas or Previews... unless you've got enough content that it could support its own thread.
Not sure if this counts as 'enough content that it could support it's own thread' (or if it's sufficiently diverse from FRO to not even fit, since it's probably not a Nasuverse crossover) so here this is:

Mind Arts Online

An AU version of Sword Art Online, inspired by daniel-gudman's Fate Revelation Online. The NerveGear helmet stimulates the development of psi abilities (called [Mind Arts]) in the player, while the game trains them in their use. Those who are 'killed' in-game are actually moved to a different server, so as not to waste their potential (though only Kayaba and his AIs know that, and those killed by someone messing with their NerveGear do still die). Optionally, he may actually kill a few of the players who refuse to participate in the 'game,' to encourage the others.

There are ten [Mind Arts], each with its own [Skill Tree] of abilities:

Astral Projection: Also knows as Astral Perception or Ætheric Manipulation, this Art interacts with the Astral Planes, and the denizens thereof. The user may perceive, communicate, and even fight with thoughtforms and other astral entities while in the physical world (generating weapons and armour that only affect the astral), or leave their body behind for a time, traveling through the planes in a way that... gets pretty meta in a VR game. They may make agreements with these entities for brief services, gain long-term allies, or create [Fetishes] by convincing an entity to anchor itself to an item (or a more powerful entity to bind a less powerful one) and empower it; such items retain a will of their own to some degree, which can be a problem, an opportunity, or both. Creating a [Fetish] that only uses powers that you have receives a bonus based on the highest skill in those abilities.

Biokinesis: Also called Biopsi, Cellular Psychokinesis (though it has elements of ESP and Telepathy), and Psychic Healing, this is the Art of [Mind over Life], sensing, analyzing, buffing, debuffing, and modifying living things. It can cause direct damage, simulate the effects of drugs and poisons, and can accelerate natural healing to a phenomenal degree (though instant healing requires a particularly high level, unlike the Beta, where you just healed X points per level instantly, and had to recast the effect). The fact that the switch to a [Death Game] also nerfed [Healing] is considered particularly sadistic (though in fact, it was done for the sake of realism). Curing (and avoiding) diseases and poisons was not nerfed, though removing them when they've had time to work does not instantly heal the damage already done. A number of in-game Biopsi instructors and psionics institutes teach the ability to slow one's aging, which is believed by some to be pointless fluff, and others to be a defence against possible accelerated aging effects. An understanding of the biological process of sleep also allows a [Biokinetic] to induce drowsyness and slumber, and with sufficient skill, to gently remove a foe (or mind-controlled friend!) from combat this way.

Ergokinesis: The Art of the [Electromagnetic Force], manipulating light, magnetism, and electricity. A major branch of this Art's [Skill Tree], called [Cyberpsi], interacts with electrical and electronic equipment and vehicles, and is thus practically useless on the low-technology floors (though on cyberpunk and more advanced floors, they can go netrunning, which is even more meta in a VR game than projecting into the Astral). This is not a problem with the other aspects of this Art, such as holographic illusions (including invisibility), controlling and generating magnetic fields to move ferrous metals, and so forth. During a storm, or in an area with strong electrical power sources, an [Ergokinetic] might produce a lightning bolt, or even tune the voltage and amperage to be less (or more) lethal. Likewise, you may learn to defend against energy attacks, as well as perceiving the full electromagnetic spectrum, electrical fields, and magnetic fields.

Extra-Sensory Perception: Generally considered the most 'passive' [Mind Art], this is the Art of the senses, of remote-viewing (or hearing, tasting, feeling, or smelling), psychometry, and precognition. One of the more basic precognitive abilities is to sense attacks just before they happen, improving defense rolls. Longer range precognition tends to be less clear, and less reliable, especially when it comes to the actions of players, rather than NPCs. You might learn to sense when psi abilities are being used nearby, or have been used, or (less reliably) will be used, as well as identifying which abilities they were, or detecting psis who are not currently using their powers (though they might hide using Meta-Psi or Probability Alteration, below).

Meta-Psi: This is the Art of interacting with the powers and effects of the [Mind Arts], buffing, debuffing (known as Anti-Psi), or otherwise manipulating them. It is this Art that is used to [Attune] items to particular [Psi Effects] - unlike [Fetishes], above, [Attuned Items] have no identifyable [Spirits] (some say that they have none at all, others that they have inhuman and nearly will-less thuoghtforms), and will not act on their own, requiring the Will of an owner; this can be both good and bad. [Attuning] an item with an ability that you do not have receives a significant skill penalty. Creating new thoughtforms is generally considered a part of this Art, though it is also possible with Astral Projection, above. A Meta-Psychic might also set up jamming fields against psi powers, hostile or otherwise, shield against direct psionic attacks, shut down power use with a touch (or eventually, at a distance), hide from other psis, or penetrate psionic illusions.

Probablity Alteration: Sometimes called Luck Control or Luck Mastery, this is the Art of [Coincidence], and thus also the Art used to alter the weather (and as with Ergokinesis, to direct bolts of lightning). Users might make themselves harder to hit, or even harder to notice when actively trying to hide, boost individual or group skills rolls (or interfere with the skill rolls of opponents), or enact a Curse through touch or eye contact (the [Evil Eye]), giving the target(s) severely bad luck for a certain period, or remove same, even if cast by another. They can give themselves or others a lucky break, find things or beings that they need (as long as it wouldn't instantly solve the quest or puzzle), or assist an opponent down the wrong path.

Psychic Vampirism: This is the Art of consuming energy to heal or buff yourself, mostly from other living things, but a [Psychic Vampire] with access to Psychokinesis can 'eat' kinetic energy, sound, and heat, one who has Ergokinesis may absorb light and electricity, one with Astral Projection may drain power from spirits, and so forth. This Art is often used to enhance Meta-Psionic defences, so that incoming attacks are absorbed rather than tanked or redirected. At higher levels, a Psychic Vampire with Meta-Psi can temporarily steal and use the powers of others, and (with high enough levels of Meta-Psi and Psychic Vampirism) even replicate previously-stolen powers. You might also learn to temporarily drain an opponent's [Attributes] (Strength, Dexterity, et cetra) or emotions, steal their dreams, or steal their energy or lifeforce to restore your own - as with Biopsi, this will not instantly heal physical damage (though the victim takes damage much faster than the attacker), merely allow exceptionally fast healing; fatigue, on the other hand, is removed effectively instantly. Detecting sources of energy that you know how to drain is a secondary skill, but one many learn quickly.

Psychokinesis: Also called Gravity Control or Inertial Manipulation, this is the Art of [Mind Over Matter]. Users may learn to shield against impacts and crushing (and direct uses of this Art), lift objects, throw small objects at bullet-like speeds, choke lifeforms who annoy them (very popular with many Star Wars fans), and even lift themselves up and fly (very slowly at first, a fraction of a walking pace, but at high levels, a [Psychokinetic] might be very fast). They may develop the ability to significantly heat up and cool down objects or areas (and to resist the opposing ability), jump great distances, or enhance their base Strength. You may control and generate sounds to confuse enemies or cause damage, and enhance or dampen existing sounds, or develop a form of sonar.

Telepathy: The Art of interaction between minds, whether communication, detection and analysis, or mental combat. You may sense the emotions of others, borrow skills, probe memories, or communicate silently and (eventually) at great distances. You can make yourself seem more likable or frightening, manipulate emotions in general, plant post-hypnotic suggestions (without the actual hypnosis), or take control of a target's body for a time. You can perceive through another's senses and learn to alter what they see (hear, smell, et cetra), make someone forget the last few seconds or minutes, or become harder for living beings to notice (though machines will not be affected). You can attack an opponent's mind to stun them, or even do further damage, and shield against such attacks (and other hostile telepathic effects). You can find other minds within your range, especially minds that are already known to you, detect the use of Telepathy, and bridge a language gap, or serve as a party's communication hub. With the right training, you can boost the intelligence of animals, manipulate dreams, or induce slumber.

Teleportation: Also called Warping, Folding, or Spacial Manipulation, this Art is primarily used for near-instant transportation. At low levels, you can teleport yourself and whatever you can carry a short distance, or teleport small objects independently of yourself, sense and disrupt the teleportation of others, or dodge an attack by instantly teleporting out of the way. Greater ranges and masses are possible with more training, as well as various space-warping tricks like making a maze out of an empty room, or making a container or vehicle bigger on the inside than it is on the outside.


I've been giving the 'levels' some thought, but not a lot of detail, yet. In general, the technology and culture varies a fair bit, as mentioned above (in Ergokinesis) - the First Floor is pretty much [Generic Medieval Fantasy Mash-up], much like canon SAO, but with less emphasis on weapons, and more Mind Art schools. Later Floors may be anywhere from a Stone Age world (probably Mesolithic or Neolithic, and likely a mash-up of anachronisms even before the players get there), all the way up to to expies of various SF franchises. Cultures and Races will likewise vary, but will most often be shallow and inaccurate portrayals. Cardinal will not necessarily fit a culture properly to its technology level, though to be fair, quite a lot of SF and fantasy fails in that area as well.


So, thoughts?
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
What's the plot for the players stuck in the secondary server? If they aren't going to be released until Game End then they need something moving them forward. And then there's the risk that players who died won't think death as a consequence if they die on the one server and then end up on the other.
 

Prince Charon

Well-Known Member
Leidolf said:
What's the plot for the players stuck in the secondary server? If they aren't going to be released until Game End then they need something moving them forward. And then there's the risk that players who died won't think death as a consequence if they die on the one server and then end up on the other.
Was thinking something not too different from what daniel-gudman has Kayaba doing with them (using them to refine the game), as it makes sense.
 

Leidolf

Well-Known Member
How does it end then?

If Game End is the goal, then no amount of refining will save the game once its over given than it was still a walking hostage situation. And if the purpose was the development of Psychic Powers then what'll have once these fledging Psychiers are set free? FRO has it outlined what will happen and how the world will respond because Nasuverse is developed, but if the Nervegears were necessary and those get replaced by Amuspheres, the potential for more of them to come about is ruled out and we're instead limited to the existing people dealing with the aftermath of these powers and how they'll use them.
 
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