Nasuverse Loose Lips

SoulGriever13

Well-Known Member
#51
Actually, and I know this is coming a little late but I've only now read through the thread, Archer letting something slip is perfectly valid.

IIRC, the souls drawn from the Throne of Heroes forget the previous times they were summoned. This especially applies to Counter Guardians, who are supposed to keep the world from going too out of whack, and of which group Archer is a part of. Their work is neither particularly heroic, nor pretty, nor even _moral_ some of the time, but apparently quite neccessary. Or something like that.

Normally, Archer wouldn't have been affected by all those times he had to commit what was basically _slaughter_, since he wouldn't really remember them ...

Unfortunately for him, UBW kinda screws that up, since _whenever he traces his Kanshou and Bakuya UBW has him 'read' the history of the blades and lets him regain all those memories_. His line about 'not remembering' may be true at the start, but it doesn't _stay_ true for very long at all.

Hence Archer being just a taaaaaaad unbalanced, enough to want to kill Shirou to stop him from becoming himself in the future.

-Griever
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#52
I'm probably going to say that Shirou probably could use Gae Bolg. Gilgamesh was even able to use the prototype against Berserker, so Shirou probably wouldn't have a problem, and he's been shown to use something such as Rule Breaker; I assume that Hrunting has a similar ability in the original form as well that Archer takes advantage of.

Certain things, like Fragarach, would require a ritual of blood to prepare before hand. Others, simply require more prana than he has, like Excalibur, and he was too weak and too new at tracing with the Caliburn. There are also skills, such as Shiki's, that cannot be copied because he lacks something in the body that goes beyond simply being too weak or too slow. None of these seem to be the case.

The biggest and a possible issue, however, is if he can trace it at all; Ea is too far apart from Shirou's understanding to trace (and, Excalibur too seems to have been imperfect), so he couldn't even analyze it, let alone make a copy. Still, chances are that it is not the case for Gae Bolg.

Other problems may plague it though. It'd be demoted to a C class Noble Phantasm, tracing time might be long, and there are other options that he and Archer would rather use. It's curse effect probably has a limit on range too, and using it as an arrow would probably have a similar effect as being thrown - then, even as a broken phantasm, Caladbolg II is probably stronger.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#53
Actually Griever, nothing Archer sees when he's summoned is available to him with UBW the next time. When he traces the blades, he just traces the same history they had when he was alive. Each time, he traces those specific blades.


PS: Shirou can trace Excalibur as perfectly as he can anything else, which is one rank less than the original. He just can't use it because he doesn't have enough prana to do so without dying. EX-rank is the only thing beyond his tracing, and that is not a definate since certain situations can give him the ability to do so.

As for using Gae Bolg, his favorite weapons are both C-. That is definately not the reason. It is possible he used it on Berserker as well, I don't think its specified what the six seperate methods Archer used to kill him were. And thrown Gae Bolg is one of the few things that can even hurt him, and a traced version used as a Broken Phantasm would do the same.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#55
Fatuous One said:
Let me state this again. I've never said that Shirou can't trace Gae Bolg (he can), the problem is I do not believe that he can use it's fullest degree. But as I said, that's merely my own speculation.
Very logical and well-thought out, F1. There are a couple of things I would like clarification on, though.

Firstly, I think the Wiki article on Archer states that his of version tracing basically downloads how to fight with the weapon in question, or something to that effect - is this backed up in the game?

Secondly, on a related point, there's also mention of him causing traced NPs to become Broken Phantasms - phyrric attacks that break the weapon, but cause a massive power increase. Is that also in-game explanation? If so, is the knowledge of Breaking a Phantasm part of the DL package?

Presumably, if Shirou/Archer traced Gae Bolg and then activated the Broken Phantasm effect, it'd be about the closest he could come to aping Lancer. It might also be useful for him given the (alleged) cost-effectiveness of Gae Bolg.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#57
Fatuous One said:
Let me see...

Well, on the first point, yes it is. Shirou (and thus Archer) place the history and experience of the weapon into it's tracing. Not only does this strengthen the image to a high degree, but it also allows Shirou to take advantage of that experience (he has to KNOW it to place it in there, although really, his Reality Marble does the remembering for him). I'm not sure when this is stated, but it IS stated, might be in UBW (or Fate, I haven't finished it yet <<;; ).? *shrug* Not sure on the specifics.
Right. Thanks for clearing that up for me, F1. It leads to a couple of other thoughts, though - do forgive my ignorance. I blame anime. ^_^

Now, I'm not particularly savvy on the Reality Marble thing, but if I'm reading you right, Shirou always has it - and always had. I'd presumed that the Reality Marble was some kind of creation of Archer, later on in life. That seems to be mistaken - would it be more accurate to say that overwriting reality with the marble is a learned skill, for a specific cost, which Shirou can't do unless he 1) learns how or 2) borrows Archer's arm?

I.e. While the RM always exists as part of Shirous's soul, accessing it and using it are learned skills (perhaps instinctual ones, if they work alongside his tracing ability) and the Summoning of the Marble in combat is an evenmore advanced use of it?

(Hm. It seems odd to me that an ability like UBW costs less mana than, say, Excalibur - given that the latter will kill him in after one activation, and the former is 'merely' a trump card...Frankly, UBW is the more pwnsome option, as far as I can tell.)
 

Sunhawk

Well-Known Member
#59
I be a bit confused on where all you people are getting all this information :p
 

Pale Wolf

Well-Known Member
#61
If you're talking about the Bad End in the fight against Saber, he didn't. That was just spamming of Bakuya and Kansho. (If that isn't the time you're thinking of, you may be right, I don't recall.)
No, a different HF Bad End. Apparently he uses Excalibur to destroy the Grail.

Anyway, not much of an issue, since you've reminded me of another example right here.

Moreover, as noted, he CAN trace Excalibur (it's not an EX rank NP), but the required prana to use it would kill him. This is a threat that Archer actually used in UBW to make Saber stand down, as while she could block it, and he would die from it, bystanders (i.e., Shirou and Rin) would also be killed.
Oh, agreed. He doesn't have the prana. But he can use it (if not survive the process, or if he had more prana).

He doesn't have the gas to the car. But, he's got the keys. There's nothing but actual power holding him back from using Excalibur's full potential (or Rule Breaker), and at that point, it seems kind of strange that he can somehow only not activate Gae Bolg (power concerns aside).

He does lack power. And he does lack skill. But, beyond EX-rank Phantasms at most, there is nothing preventing him from actually triggering every capability of his traces - only using them properly and sustainably.

Now, I'm not particularly savvy on the Reality Marble thing, but if I'm reading you right, Shirou always has it - and always had. I'd presumed that the Reality Marble was some kind of creation of Archer, later on in life. That seems to be mistaken - would it be more accurate to say that overwriting reality with the marble is a learned skill, for a specific cost, which Shirou can't do unless he 1) learns how or 2) borrows Archer's arm?
Basically... manifesting it is a learned skill.

But the Marble itself is him. It's his inner world, who he is.

That's why he wasn't able to use it in Heaven's Feel - his inner world had become something too radically different from Archer's.

Like Fatuous One said with different words: You're pretty much right.
 

Pale Wolf

Well-Known Member
#63
But that's...

Oh, yes. I had forgotten. But you're wrong, it's not a Bad End, that's HF's Normal End.
Er... Doh? :sweat:

I was wondering, since I seemed to remember you having been the one to mention it in the first place...

Not really 'only Gae Bolg', I meant it in general terms. Well, I can't really say you're wrong, it's possible. However, it should be noted that if the fullest potential point applies to any NP, it would apply to all of them. EX rank would have nothing to do with it, although he can't trace EX rank NP's at all (Avalon being an exception, obviously) due to their unique nature.
Well, 'EX-rank only' was the first restriction I could think of that would apply as seen to Avalon, and yet not apply - as we've also seen - to Excalibur, which is A++.

Is it necessary to put the maximum potential of Excalibur to use to fire an energy blast? I don't really remember from HF's Normal End if Shirou did so, (and I can't check right now since the patch fucked up my installation of Fate/stay night in Japanese, and thus my saves) so I don't really know.
Possibly, but like I said, it's not actually that much of an issue. We know at least that Archer could put out a close enough level of beamspam to Saber to kill everyone in the backlash. So, at the least Shirou is, even as 'not the master', capable of manifesting a really damn big chunk of an A++ Phantasm's ability.

So, how much harder could a B Phantasm be?

Well, perhaps that only applies to the actual NP and not a traced version, but that seems very, very iffy.
Indeed, that's the closest explanation I could think of to reconcile that statement with what we've seen as well...

It's actually not that iffy if you think about it, though. At least, not for a Shirou trace.

He manifests the memories of the weapon as well. As in, the memories of being used by its master. So you could think of it as if he recreated the entire Phantasm - weapon and true master - in his Tracing. It seems reasonable, given that he already recreates its history, powers, the skills of its wielders...
 

shout27

Well-Known Member
#64
Personnally you should be careful of falling into the trap of rank, just because it's usefulness/power is more limited doesn't mean it isn't on par with an EX in complexity/uniqueness is the word i'm looking for i guess.

question: if Excalibur is A++ as a removed/weaker copy of Gilgamesh's original would Gilgamesh's original version (I just forgot the name) be labeled A+++ or S?
 

Sirian

Well-Known Member
#65
About the original topic.
What if Shiro summoned Archer instead of Saber. Rin summons Saber instead (like she wanted if i remember correctly). Then we have a connection between Shiro and Archer. Since Shiro after summoning Saber had dreams about her past life he easily can have dreams about Archers life. Eliminating the need for Archer to let something slip.

If Shiro dreams about something particularly gruesome or current (perhaps in the immediate future) gruesome event he would probably confront Archer with it.

Allowing Archer to be summoned a couple of days earlier is a rather minor change.
 

zeebee1

Well-Known Member
#66
And then Shirou uses up his command seals to stop Archer from killing him. After that Archer kills him.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#67
zeebee1 said:
And then Shirou uses up his command seals to stop Archer from killing him. After that Archer kills him.
Yeah, that would get very nasty, very quickly. ^_^
 

Raven

Well-Known Member
#68
From what I understand, you can give permanent commands, such as "Obey me" or "Don't try to kill me".
 

Mereo Flere

Well-Known Member
#69
Raven said:
From what I understand, you can give permanent commands, such as "Obey me" or "Don't try to kill me".
You can.

It's just that the order will have very little effect.

Even Rin, who is a genius as a magus, could not completely order Archer to obey her. The most she could do with that order was make him feel heavier if he didn't obey her; Shirou, who's pretty much a failure as a magus outside of his own specific talent, wouldn't be able to do that much. Even if he could, it wouldn't be enough to stop Archer from killing him.

Commands are more powerful the more specific they are. Likewise, commands are less powerful the less specific they are.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#70
Well, I think it'd be more like...

Shirou: Archer, you are forbidden from trying to kill me! *CommandSeal*
Archer: Fuck. (thinking: LOL n00b.)

Next Day

Lancer: *hurls Gae Bolg*
Archer: Chance! *sidesteps, allowing the attack to hit Shirou*
Shirou: WTF?!
Archer: You never said I couldn't let you die.
Shirou:? :rip1:
Also...
question: if Excalibur is A++ as a removed/weaker copy of Gilgamesh's original would Gilgamesh's original version (I just forgot the name) be labeled A+++ or S?
I'm not sure, but I think Excalibur was an original, not a "descendant" NP. Caliburn was stated to be a "child" of Merodach (NP called "Original Sin"; Merodach is an alternate spelling of Marduk), with which Gil owned Shirou's copy!Caliburn.

But Gil still pwned Excalibur with Ea.

Question: Wasn't it stated that Ea is just a name Gil gave to that NP, and that the NP itself had no real name?
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#71
toraneko said:
Well, I think it'd be more like...

Shirou: Archer, you are forbidden from trying to kill me! *CommandSeal*
Archer: Fuck. (thinking: LOL n00b.)

Next Day

Lancer: *hurls Gae Bolg*
Archer: Chance! *sidesteps, allowing the attack to hit Shirou*
Shirou: WTF?!
Archer: You never said I couldn't let you die.
Shirou:á :rip1:
LMAO! Sweet little omake there. Poor Shirou - if he can't trust himself, who can he trust? :lol:

[Technically, though, the paradox wouldn't happen if that happened. So Archer really is restrained, until such time as he can instigate friendly fire.]

Archer: "Hm...I'm sure I traced three pairs of Kansho and Bakuya..." :hmm:

Shirou: "I think (cough/hack/wheeze ) I found 'em for you." :rip1:
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
#72
Excalibur has no predecessors or decendants. It is the top holy sword in existance, forged by the planet from the wishes of mankind. It allows the use of Divine Spirit level thaumaturgy.

Ea is EX-rank. From Fuyuki:

Working under the basis that '1' is considered a normal value:
Rank Unmodified + (X2) ++ (X3) +++ (X4)
A 50 100 150 200
B 40 80 120 160
C 30 60 90 120
D 20 40 60 80
E 10 20 30 40
Weapons or stats with an EX rank do not fall under the parameter rules. Things that can no longer be categorized by the numbers of the above scale as they lie beyond them.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#73
re trevelyan: Nah, that wouldn't work if Shirou still has Avalon inside him. Well, Kansho & Bakuya Over-Edge might, but I don't think Archer throws them that way.


Question: Am I the only one who keeps hearing Kansho and Bakuya as "Kancho and Bukkake"? :wacko:
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#74
toraneko said:
re trevelyan: Nah, that wouldn't work if Shirou still has Avalon inside him. Well, Kansho & Bakuya Over-Edge might, but I don't think Archer throws them that way.


Question: Am I the only one who keeps hearing Kansho and Bakuya as "Kancho and Bukkake"?á :wacko:
Ah, quite true - Wolverine regen ftw. Was he permanantly dead when Lancer Gae Bolg'd him, then? Rin stepped in, (which secretly created the bond with her gem that caused her to summon Archer in the first place, which is a wonderfully subtle mindfuck thank-you-very-much) but might Shirou have gotten up on his own anyway? :unsure:

My issue with K and B is that I keep thinking I'm mis-spelling it. Byakuya and Byakugan have much to answer for. -_-
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
#75
trevelyan1983 said:
Was he permanantly dead when Lancer Gae Bolg'd him, then? Rin stepped in, (which secretly created the bond with her gem that caused her to summon Archer in the first place, which is a wonderfully subtle mindfuck thank-you-very-much) but might Shirou have gotten up on his own anyway? :unsure:
Unknown to me. He was only close to death when Rin healed him, IIRC. If he died completely before Avalon could fix the damage enough for him to live (Avalon does take time, after all) he'd certainly be toast, but if Avalon worked fast enough, no problem.

Also, Gae Bolg in action!
 
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