Nasuverse Loose Lips

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
The problem with that though Mereo, is that even though Shirou is copying the weapons from Gil's vault, the history he's copying is the weapons themselves. That includes any other users who've actually mastered them. Now that I think about it, he should be able to use any of Gil's weapons better than he can.

And FO, the hole isn't in your debating, but in either the information from sites like fuyuki or plot holes in the story itself. Nothing you can do about that unfortunately.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
IOW, Gil has all those weapons in the King's Treasure Vault, but he doesn't know them. He's the kind of man that sees himself as too great to need to learn such things. That's why his use of the Gates is mostly firing the weapons out at great speed, without even actually using the weapons. Only rarely does he actually deign to pick up a weapon other than Ea, and when he does, it tends to be because he wants to humiliate his foes. His overblown ego is EVERYTHING.

UBW is kinda balanced when you realize that 1) it costs prana (quite a bit) to activate and to keep up, 2) it costs prana to duplicate weapons, 3) it can only duplicate weapons that Shirou/Archer has encountered before, 4) copies are always weaker than the originals, and 5) it can't duplicate non-weapons without a significantly higher cost.
Really, if Gil hadn't gone with Gates of Babylon, Shirou wouldn't have had any chance whatsoever against him.

edit: Really, I don't think this is so much a plot-hole issue as it is a case that Nasu hasn't explained it very well yet.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
That's not quite what I meant, FO. I mean that Gil either 1) doesn't take the time to learn to use most of the NPs in the vault to the fullest extent he can, or 2) deems pretty much all opponents as unworthy of that kind of effort from the King of Heroes, when he can just Enuma Elish them all to hell.

I know he can use them, but can he really use them?
 

Shiakou

Well-Known Member
I think it has somthing to do with the "new copies of the Hero do not retain memories from previous copies" thing. Gil just never learns his lessons from the previous Wars no matter how many times he loses.
 

shout27

Well-Known Member
Okay, i'm guessing in DnD terms Gilgamesh would be the Epic Fighter with Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, and Greater Weapon Specialization Feats in those Noble Phantasms, while their Current Wielders are Epic Fighters with Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, Weapon Specialization, Greater Weapon Specialization, and Epic Weapon Specialization in those Noble Phantasms?
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
Mmm... D&D terms really don't apply here. Each Noble Phantasm is like a Major Artifact, if you want to take it that way, but a user certainly has to either know how to use one already (e.g. Shirou, due to UBW) or learn it the old-fashioned way. Feats, as it were, don't really enter into it - one would have to take a full set of Feats for every NP they possess.

I postulate that either Gil just doesn't know how to best use the NPs he has in the vault, or he thinks too highly of himself to bother using them that way with nearly every opponent.
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
Yeah, I did notice that, but Nasu seems to be basing the stats off of a very vague ruleset, or one to which he/she/mushroom only knows the rules.

If the rules ever do get thoroughly explained, Nasu-speak notwithstanding, I look forward to trying to convert the Nasu-verse into a d20 campaign setting. Variant rules are a must, of course, and the operative word in that sentence would be "trying", but still...
 

toraneko

Well-Known Member
Yeah, problems arise when trying to make Tsukihime and (god forbid) Kara no Kyoukai retroactively compatible.

I mean, seriously - Ciel can be sort-of reasonably given a power level comparison (albeit one that places her above some Servants), but Arc just screws everthing all to hell.

Shiki's Eyes might be thought of as being a cheat that enables him to use a called shot to simulate Vorpal enchantments on any slashing attack, or to IDNS* on a high-DC called shot when focused. But Arc still thwarts the attempt at applying this to her level.

Hmm. Maybe Arc is a Tarrasque sort of being? I mean, it pretty much would take a miracle to keep her down. ;)

*IDNS = Instant Death, No Save
 

Cornuthaum

Well-Known Member

vs


Hmmmm.

I'd rather get brutally maimed by the latter. At least she's cute :sisi:
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
Your tarrasque pic isn't showing Corn.


And yes, Arc is cute ^_^


edit: the pic is up now :huh.:
 
Mereo Flere said:
Nasu has also hinted that the possibility of Shirou using "an energy blast" like Excalibur might be possible, but the issues he brings up with it is neither the ability to call out the Noble Phantasm's name nor being the correct owner - rather, issues of prana are brought up.
Isn't that what Shiro did in the good end of Heaven's Feel? Using Excalibur to destroy the Grail at the cost of his body.
 
AbyssalDaemon said:
Mereo Flere said:
Nasu has also hinted that the possibility of Shirou using "an energy blast" like Excalibur might be possible, but the issues he brings up with it is neither the ability to call out the Noble Phantasm's name nor being the correct owner - rather, issues of prana are brought up.
Isn't that what Shiro did in the good end of Heaven's Feel? Using Excalibur to destroy the Grail at the cost of his body.
I'm not 100% on this, but I believe Ilya "saves" Shirou and closes off/destroys the lesser grail herself.

Shirou never gets the chance to trace Excalibur I believe.

~The Ecchi Sessha
 
TheEcchiSessha said:
AbyssalDaemon said:
Mereo Flere said:
Nasu has also hinted that the possibility of Shirou using "an energy blast" like Excalibur might be possible, but the issues he brings up with it is neither the ability to call out the Noble Phantasm's name nor being the correct owner - rather, issues of prana are brought up.
Isn't that what Shiro did in the good end of Heaven's Feel? Using Excalibur to destroy the Grail at the cost of his body.
I'm not 100% on this, but I believe Ilya "saves" Shirou and closes off/destroys the lesser grail herself.

Shirou never gets the chance to trace Excalibur I believe.

~The Ecchi Sessha
No that was the True ending.
 

ttestagr

Well-Known Member
The Good Ending actually. Which isn't so good in my opinion since Ilya sacrificed herself. The one where Shirou dies is the Normal Ending.
 

Ray

Well-Known Member
Great. I just got reminded of all the reasons that make me hate Heaven's Feel. Ilya dies. We learn that Sakura gets raped and abused. Saber also gets offed after becoming a pawn of the enemy. Shirou abandons his ideals and dies/has a mental breakdown in all but one ending. Gilgamesh gets pwnt by Sakura without making hardly any major appearances.

Ugh. The only good thing about that scenario was Rider.
 
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