Luke's new Master

[Vorpal]

Sorry to butt in the thread but I would like to ask a question that has been buggin me for a while since I first heard of Revan (I still have to play to KOTOR something that I have to correct soon when I have enough time) but who is more powerful Luke (taking in count the EU) or Revan?

Revan only appears on one game that I'm aware of: KoTOR. Although much of the in-game plot in KoTOR2 is dependent on Revan (some even variable, dependent on what happened in KoTOR1), the only actual appears of Revan turns out to be an illusion. Now, if both the EU and the games are considered canon, then although Revan was definitely one of the premier Sith Lords, Luke would outrank him in the Force power scale, simply because the sources say that Palpatine/Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord and EU Luke can match Palpatine. Generally speaking, EU is fairly schizophrenic--minimalist at one point, then completely wanked the next, but overall taking it as canon leads to the conclusion that Revan's not the biggest kid on the block as far as Force ability is concerned.

Overall, I'd call this for EU Luke.

That said, most of the set-up in KoTOR critically depends on Revan being a charismatic, intelligent, and highly successful as both a general and a Sith Lord, being sort of the Palpatine of military tactics and strategy (rather than politics)--it's even implied that Malak needed an over two-fold increase in military production in order to continue Revan's campaign, even without Bastila's battle meditation helping the Republic. Thus, I would say that it is not unreasonable for him to beat EU Luke even though Revan is less powerful in the Force, just as Kenobi beat Anakin on Mustafar despite the fact that Anakin was more powerful (as evidenced by the fact that Kenobi had to give ground to match Anakin, but he did it in such a way as to gain a tactical advantage).

 

[Thorn]

just as Kenobi beat Anakin on Mustafar despite the fact that Anakin was more powerful (as evidenced by the fact that Kenobi had to give ground to match Anakin, but he did it in such a way as to gain a tactical advantage).

HAX.

 

[ttestagr]

just as Kenobi beat Anakin on Mustafar despite the fact that Anakin was more powerful (as evidenced by the fact that Kenobi had to give ground to match Anakin, but he did it in such a way as to gain a tactical advantage).

HAX.

Specifically plot armor. With the way the last two movies went, he shouldn't have been able to beat Anakin at all. Obi-Wan was amazingly pathetic after his fight with Maul. I believe he didn't win another until he beat Grievous by act of plot.

 

[Jetflash]

Well, if you just go by the movies, Anakin didn't win any until he finally beat Dooku. And, to be fair, when Obi-wan beat Anakin, it was when Anakin was irrational from anger, and overconfident in his own abilities. If Anakin had been thinking clearly, Obi-wan would have lost.

 

[Belgarion213]

Sorry to butt in the thread but I would like to ask a question that has been buggin me for a while since I first heard of Revan (I still have to play to KOTOR something that I have to correct soon when I have enough time) but who is more powerful Luke (taking in count the EU) or Revan?

Revan only appears on one game that I'm aware of: KoTOR. Although much of the in-game plot in KoTOR2 is dependent on Revan (some even variable, dependent on what happened in KoTOR1), the only actual appears of Revan turns out to be an illusion. Now, if both the EU and the games are considered canon, then although Revan was definitely one of the premier Sith Lords, Luke would outrank him in the Force power scale, simply because the sources say that Palpatine/Sidious was the most powerful Sith Lord and EU Luke can match Palpatine. Generally speaking, EU is fairly schizophrenic--minimalist at one point, then completely wanked the next, but overall taking it as canon leads to the conclusion that Revan's not the biggest kid on the block as far as Force ability is concerned.

Overall, I'd call this for EU Luke.

That said, most of the set-up in KoTOR critically depends on Revan being a charismatic, intelligent, and highly successful as both a general and a Sith Lord, being sort of the Palpatine of military tactics and strategy (rather than politics)--it's even implied that Malak needed an over two-fold increase in military production in order to continue Revan's campaign, even without Bastila's battle meditation helping the Republic. Thus, I would say that it is not unreasonable for him to beat EU Luke even though Revan is less powerful in the Force, just as Kenobi beat Anakin on Mustafar despite the fact that Anakin was more powerful (as evidenced by the fact that Kenobi had to give ground to match Anakin, but he did it in such a way as to gain a tactical advantage).

Actually IIRC there is an instance in KOTOR2 where somebody who saw the future, with Vader and the Emperor and still believed that Revan was the most powerful force user EVER. Well maybe not in raw energy usage, though he was indeed sitting up their with guys who were NOT comprised of pure force energy, such as Vader. Revan in any case was a badass of EPIC proportions.

Not only was a he a genius in tactical manners, probably one of the greatest tactical minds ever on par with some of the Grand Admirals such as Thrawn and others, but he was the single greatest warrior of his age. His skills with the force were phenomenal, as said "Revan WAS power". Not only did he turn to the Dark Side WILLINGLY but he held enough control not to be eaten by the corrosive energies that the addicting qualities of the Dark Side seem to perpetuate.

Revan, like Anakin Skywalker, was a incredible mechanic who managed to built HK-47, a feet of badass proportions in and of itself. He was also a phenomenal pilot, not only in flying a ship but he also won the swoop races for the galaxy.

Luke probably DOES win out over Revan in terms of raw power, he IS the kid of The Sith'ri(or however you spell it) however Revan is by himself not only a monstrously powerful force adept, but a horrifyingly skilled one.

Think about the end of KOTOR1 when Revan faced his former companion. Malek was drawing on the force powers of 40 other Jedi as well as his own power. Revan MATCHED AND EXCEEDED THAT.

Sorry Ill stop Fan-worshiping now


http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Revan

 

[foesjoe]

To be fair, you'd have to compare a 40-ish year old Luke with KotoR Revan, because then they'd both have around the same experience and knowledge of the Force. And by then I think Luke really is the most powerful Force User there ever was, thanks to EU powerwanking.

But it doesn't matter anyway, Luke and Revan are both awesome in their own right (Even if I am the only one who thinks Luke is awesome )

But to get back on topic: Didn't the Exile take the Ebon Hawk with her/him into the Unknown Regions? You'd have to think up a reason why it returned to known space then. Maybe they encountered the Yuuzhan Vong and sent the Ebon Hawk back with a message warning the Republic, only it got damaged on the way and ended up crashlanding on Tatooine in the middle of a sand storm?

Or Reven and the Exile actually took care of the threat they went off to fight and came back, only to have their ship crashland on Tatooine, killing them off. Luke could then actually interact with their Force ghosts, which I think is better than him finding a holocron.

 

[Vorpal]

just as Kenobi beat Anakin on Mustafar despite the fact that Anakin was more powerful (as evidenced by the fact that Kenobi had to give ground to match Anakin, but he did it in such a way as to gain a tactical advantage).

HAX.

That's a pretty stupid way of thinking about this. Yes, we all know Anakin was stronger than Kenobi, but that's exactly what the fight showed. Kenobi spent half the fight retreating from Anakin--even when they crossed swords, most of the time it Kenobi gave ground, and although it can be said that it was mostly by chance that he finally achieved a tactical advantage, that's precisely the point: real combat is more complicated than DBZ-esque "my power level is bigger than yours" tripe, and an inferior but experienced fighter can last a comparatively long time against a superior one by giving ground.

Well, if you just go by the movies, Anakin didn't win any until he finally beat Dooku. And, to be fair, when Obi-wan beat Anakin, it was when Anakin was irrational from anger, and overconfident in his own abilities. If Anakin had been thinking clearly, Obi-wan would have lost.

The most likely outcome of the battle (if it still took place on Mustafar and we didn't know that Anakin was destined to survive because of the prophesy) would probably be with both combatants dying. Kenobi clearly wasn't stupid and had realized that the only chance he had was to use the environment against Anakin. He probably didn't even realistically expect to win, just to take Anakin down even if it costs him his own life.

Actually IIRC there is an instance in KOTOR2 where somebody who saw the future, with Vader and the Emperor and still believed that Revan was the most powerful force user EVER. Well maybe not in raw energy usage, though he was indeed sitting up their with guys who were NOT comprised of pure force energy, such as Vader. Revan in any case was a badass of EPIC proportions.

Maybe, although I don't recall it. I know Kreia correctly prophesizes that Canderous's ambition will ultimately fail and seems to refer specifically to Jango Fett (as the last of of the Mandalorians), but that's the extent of my memory of that conversation.

Not only was a he a genius in tactical manners, probably one of the greatest tactical minds ever on par with some of the Grand Admirals such as Thrawn and others, but he was the single greatest warrior of his age. ...

That's true; pretty much all of the setup of KoTOR depends on Revan having "Thrawn-like" military ability.

Luke probably DOES win out over Revan in terms of raw power, he IS the kid of The Sith'ri(or however you spell it) however Revan is by himself not only a monstrously powerful force adept, but a horrifyingly skilled one.

Yes, that's my point--Luke is probably more powerful in terms of raw Force ability, but Revan isn't so far behind that it is unreasonable for him to come out on top in fight between them, and even more so if their contest is not in some controlled environment.

Think about the end of KOTOR1 when Revan faced his former companion. Malek was drawing on the force powers of 40 other Jedi as well as his own power. Revan MATCHED AND EXCEEDED THAT.

Good point, but we also don't know if those Jedi increased Malak's power proportionally or not.

 

[Thorn]

just as Kenobi beat Anakin on Mustafar despite the fact that Anakin was more powerful (as evidenced by the fact that Kenobi had to give ground to match Anakin, but he did it in such a way as to gain a tactical advantage).

HAX.

That's a pretty stupid way of thinking about this. Yes, we all know Anakin was stronger than Kenobi, but that's exactly what the fight showed. Kenobi spent half the fight retreating from Anakin--even when they crossed swords, most of the time it Kenobi gave ground, and although it can be said that it was mostly by chance that he finally achieved a tactical advantage, that's precisely the point: real combat is more complicated than DBZ-esque "my power level is bigger than yours" tripe, and an inferior but experienced fighter can last a comparatively long time against a superior one by giving ground.

[/quote]
;-; I was just quoting a VG Cats comic. No need to call me stupid ;-;.

 

[mandalorianjedi]

The Sith'ari has never been officially annouced. As it stands, Anakin Skywalker isn't the only person who could be considered that. They are, in chronological order, Darth Revan, Darth Bane and Darth Vader.

Revan: It was his teachings that would make way for the Sith "Thought Bomb" and the "Rule of Two". Kreia also described Revan as being "The Heart of the Force", meaning he more than likely was Force power and skill incarnate on par with or surpassing that of Anakin Skywalker. Kriea also speculated that Revan "Never fell to the darkside" claiming he became a Sith Lord by choice of necessity.

Bane: After learning everything he could from Revan's holocron, manipulated Kaan into using the Thought Bomb killing hundreds of Jedi and nearly annhilating the Sith. He would be the first Sith Lord to instate the "Rule of Two".

Vader: Is actually the least like candidate of the three Sith for the title of Sith'ari. As the Sith'ari is said to be a being with unrestricted use of the Force, who would destroy the Sith only to make them stronger. Vader did the second part when he killed Darth Sidious/Emperor Palpatine and ended the "Rule of Two". However, because he was a cyborg that was over 80% machine, he did not have unrestricted use of the Force and was unable to use a plethora of Force Techniques such as Force Lightning.

 

[trevelyan1983]

Interesting that Revan's choice to become Dark Side is treated as some kind of awesomeness, while Anakin's choice to do the same is not.

Make no mistake, Anakin made the deliberate choice to become Vader. He did so after a decade of manipulation by a true Evil Bastard, but he made the decision nonetheless. The only difference I can see between the two was in the motivating factor.

And while the awesomeness of Vader is almost enough to forgive the emo whinging of Eps 2 and 3, it doesn't quite match up to Revan's more balanced approach to being awesome all the time.

 

[elric]

Revan was the first and only user of the Awesome Side of the force.

 

[mandalorianjedi]

There is also the fact that when Anakin made his choice, he was manipulated into making that decision AND ultimately caused the one event he had hoped to prevent.

Revan saw that as a Jedi, he was not enough and saw that becoming a Sith to defeat not only the Sith, but the Mandalorians as well, was his only option. Even after his memory wipe, Revan continued to use both light and dark sides of the Force, much like Anakin.

It's what made the both of them as powrful as they were.

 

[ttestagr]

The reason Revan is the best isn't because he chose to become a Sith Lord or use the Dark Side. The unique thing about him is that he mastered both the Light and the Dark, and had full use of both. All of the others, even if they were both Sith and Jedi during their lives, only used a single side at once.

Because Revan didn't have that limit, it can accurately be said that he's the strongest ever. Luke may be better with the Light, and Palpatine with the Dark, but Revan could take either using both. Its that simple.

 

[Moshulel]

Revan saw that as a Jedi, he was not enough and saw that becoming a Sith to defeat not only the Sith, but the Mandalorians as well, was his only option.

Revan was never, never, never a Sith. He overcome the dark side and its lure, withstood assaults that none other 'light' aligned Jedi would have resisted and in the process became something else entirely.

Saying Revan was a Sith/Jedi is a mistake in my view, he went beyond allowing the Jedi teachings or the rage of the Sith to control him, beyond allowing himself to become a pawn of the force and took matters into his own hands.

As a note Revan had control over both aspects of the force, so I pretty much doubt Palpatine or Luke at their peaks could defeat him even if he used only the same side as they did. Also many of his great deeds in the Mandalorian war were done as a Jedi, before he perceived the greater threat which prompted him to become a villain in order to save them all.

*And I just got a fic idea for this fandom. Damn.

Edit: Regarding Luke's mechanical skills. In what's what I consider the main source of SW (the 4-6 eps) he displays quite a bit of ability with mechanics. He's the one that tends to the droids at first (I can't recall right now but he's the one that evaluates them when they buy them too) and in episode five handles the repairs of his ship. Seeing that the focus of those eps wasn't on flashy, flashy and some more flash I say that's enough proof that he has the skill.

 

[mandalorianjedi]

Saying Revan was a Sith/Jedi is a mistake in my view, he went beyond allowing the Jedi teachings or the rage of the Sith to control him, beyond allowing himself to become a pawn of the force and took matters into his own hands.

Whether or not Revan was a true Sith by belief is negligible at best. However, Revan held the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, so he WAS a Sith, if by title only, so your argument is moot.

Kreia said that at the base of it all, whether as Jedi Knight or as Dark Lord of the Sith, those were just personalities, different aspects of what Revan truly was. During the Mandalorian Wars, Revan knew that what he had been taught as a Jedi was too constricting and limited for him to truly succeed in defeating the Mandalorians, much less the Sith.

He embraced the teaching of the Sith, knowing that he could go farther in his knowledge of the Force, furthur than those before him. However, the Sith aspect of Revan completely overwrote his Jedi personality. It wasn't until after he was mind wiped by the Jedi Council and was stripped away from his Sith and Jedi mentalities that the core of what Revan truly was was brough to the surface and he was able to reconcile both halfs of his true self when his memories returned.

However, saying Revan was not a Sith is inaccurate in the very least. His teachings were Sith in their very core and were invaluable to Darth Bane when the second candidate of the Sith'ari Prophecy reformed the Sith in what he thought the Sith should be, based on the teachings of Revan.

Revan may have been one of the ultimate Jedi, but he was a revolutionary Sith.

Also, to say Palpatine was only versed in the Darkside aspects of the Force are also inaccurate.

For those of us who read the "Revenge of the Sith" novel by Matt Stover, know that Palpatine was a stand out amongst the Sith because he knew the Jedi teachings and acknowledged them for what they were. He was a different type of Sith than what the Jedi had ever seen before because he followed Jedi and Sith teachings. This was also the reason he beat Yoda on Coruscant. Yoda acknowledged that in the years the Sith had remained in the shadows, they had evolved beyond their old ways and had become much stronger for it, while the Jedi were unwavering and unchanging, stagnating in the own beliefs and power, not evolving nor changing in any significant way, looking down at others who signified change.

The only aspects of the Jedi that Palpatine was not well versed in was the concept of the "Living Force" that was taught by Qui-Gon Jin, that Yoda, Obi-Wan, Luke and even Jacen Solo would all follow. The Living Force was a radical concept in the times before the Clone Wars and it was because of this view of the Force that Qui-Gon was never allowed to sit on the Jedi Council. In the time between the Clone Wars and the Galactic Rebellion, Qui-Gon, in spirit form, would teach Yoda and Obi-Wan this aspect of the Force as he understood it. This would later be passed down to Luke who would master it in the EU book, "The Courtship of Princess Leia".

Kriea foresaw the fall of the Republic and the Mandalorians in her final visions befor her death at Malachor V. Canderous would fail, but the Mandalorians would live on and become a sizeable force afterthe Rebellion and during the Vong War. She also foresaw the death of Jango Fett at the hands of Mace Windu.

In terms of Raw Force power, it isn't clear who the most powerful Force user in history is, though the likely candidates are Revan, Anakin Skywalker and Cade Skywalker. The three were exceptional with the things they could do and accomplish with the Force.

Luke is powerful, I'll give you that, being the son of ONE of the possible Sith'ari's will do that, but he had to work hard for that power, harder than anyother Jedi before or since, IMHO. Revan and Anakin were prodigies, Luke was a genius of hardwork. He practically built the entire Jedi Order from the ground up single handedly and faced opposition not only from living beings but those thought long dead such as Darth Sidious and Exar Kun.

 

[ttestagr]

You're not getting it. Revan did declare himself a Sith Lord, but he didn't reject the teachings of the Jedi. He used both, which is why he was able to control the force, instead of it controlling him.

 

[Belgarion213]

Exactly, its that control over his own actions that allowed him to sidestep the decaying energies of the Dark Side.

 

[Moshulel]

Whether or not Revan was a true Sith by belief is negligible at best. However, Revan held the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, so he WAS a Sith, if by title only, so your argument is moot.

You invalidate that argument with the next statement:

Kreia said that at the base of it all, whether as Jedi Knight or as Dark Lord of the Sith, those were just personalities, different aspects of what Revan truly was.

However, the Sith aspect of Revan completely overwrote his Jedi personality.

No, that never happened. In all he did Revan was driven by bhis own plans to protect the Republic. He never gave in to the associated Sith problems and controlled the dark side.

Viewing Revan as a Sith/Jedi is flawed. True he progressed further in both aspects than anyone else, but he was never, following his encounter with the Sith teachings, one of of the two. Considering him as limited by one of the two above definitions of force users just doesn't fit with him. He never fell prey to the Dark Side.

Also if Palpatine declares himself a Jedi Grandmaster and continues doing what he usually does does that mean he's a Jedi now? Same for Yoda proclaiming himself a Sith Lord.

 

[Vassago]

Whether or not Revan was a true Sith by belief is negligible at best. However, Revan held the title of Dark Lord of the Sith, so he WAS a Sith, if by title only, so your argument is moot.

You invalidate that argument with the next statement:

Kreia said that at the base of it all, whether as Jedi Knight or as Dark Lord of the Sith, those were just personalities, different aspects of what Revan truly was.

However, the Sith aspect of Revan completely overwrote his Jedi personality.

No, that never happened. In all he did Revan was driven by bhis own plans to protect the Republic. He never gave in to the associated Sith problems and controlled the dark side.

Viewing Revan as a Sith/Jedi is flawed. True he progressed further in both aspects than anyone else, but he was never, following his encounter with the Sith teachings, one of of the two. Considering him as limited by one of the two above definitions of force users just doesn't fit with him. He never fell prey to the Dark Side.

Also if Palpatine declares himself a Jedi Grandmaster and continues doing what he usually does does that mean he's a Jedi now? Same for Yoda proclaiming himself a Sith Lord.

I always thought that Revan had Dissociative Identity Disorder, and that the two identity's weren't all that different, except in their Methods.

Sith!Revan was extremely ruthless and so set in his conviction that nothing short of a complete mind-wipe could change his mind in the slightest, and he didn't care about the lives lost if he could save the Galaxy as a whole.

Jedi!Revan was less ruthless, and would have taken on the whole burden by himself (like how he disappeared at the end of KotoR and isn't mentioned ever again, and how he went against the Jedi council to wage war against the Mandalorians, and used the Star Forge even when he knew it could corrupt him completely) if he hadn't become dormant and Sith!Revan become dominant, and while he cared about the lives lost he wouldn't let that stop him if he could save the Galaxy in the end.

Both were very Charismatic, intelligent, and wise, and used all things they could get their hands on to save the Galaxy from what he perceived as a future threat.

Both only killed those that could potentially destabilize the Galaxy and ruin his plans to save it from the "True Sith" that were still out there and could come back at any time.

 

[Moshulel]

No, it was just one Revan. It was his belief that no matter what, win or lose in his 'conquest' of the Republic, the Republic would be better prepared for the true threat out there. This is what motivated him in his actions as a 'Sith'.

 

[whateveritis12]

I think that the force has it's Real Life Avatar for every generation after the introduction of Anakin.

Skywalkers are all above your average force sensitive but only a select few are above and beyond.

Anakin is the strongest because he is the force's son. Luke is there with him because he was needed to defeat the strongest sith and his father. Cade's as strong as he is because he's needed to defeat the sith in his time and there isn't a whole lot of help for him. As for Revan, I don't really care. I think he's strong, but Skywalker's are the force's family and select members of the family are chosen for extraordinary services to the force, hence the extra power.

 

[foesjoe]

Damn you. Seeing this thread again has made me wonder what it would be like if Kamina were to replace Biggs Darklighter.

 

[A Curious Stranger]

ttestagr nailed it. Stackpole and Zahn produced the only decent books I ever came across in the EU.

lolwut

You have obviously never read the Han Solo trilogy by Ann C. Crispin. Zahn was great and created Grand Admiral Thrawn, but somehow Crispin's stuff seems way better to me.

 

[Belgarion213]

Zahn's books were excellent as was the Han Solo trilogy. However while Stackpol's books were entertaining don't think would group them with the former two series.

 

[Prince Charon]

Damn you. Seeing this thread again has made me wonder what it would be like if Kamina were to replace Biggs Darklighter.

Well, he'd still die, but Luke's hot-bloodedness would cause him to fall to the Dark Side, unless you also import Spiral Power, and give it primacy over the Force.