Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Hoki]

Magic in the MGLN universe is basically complex mathematics coupled with super advanced technology, while still having some anomalies and mysteries here and there.

As a starter, there's Raising Heart, Nanoha's device. Unique that it is the only device shown whose origins are not known, she (because she's voiced by a female) has displayed various capabilities unique to other devices of her kind (having "qualifications", independent movement, training simulations). It makes one wonder what it really is.

Edit: Thanks for S.T.G (or Sunder, if you prefer that) for pointing out the misspelling.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

RE: Magic and Technology of NGLN

It was certainly meant for someone whom had no idea what she was doing, and no proper instructor, yet whom also had power to spare.

For such a beginner, an Intelligent Device with pre-loaded, high-powered spells to cast on its own, and a virtual reality training program, is surely an ideal choice.

Also an extremely expensive one, which just makes it an oddly risky investment to make on someone whom, as said, has absolutely no idea what she is doing. Bardiche presumably has no such training simulation program, but is otherwise just as expensive a machine, and he was intended for a prodigy who was recieving a rigorous (if truncated and biased) magical education.


On a related note, since the virtual training program can be used while Raising Heart is in Standby Mode, I like to think it was one of the guest-user features permitted to Yuuno while he owned it, and it is thanks to that program that Yuuno is so good at high-speed aerial self-defense and combat-support.


Aside: You mispelled the thread title. Might want to edit that.

EDIT: Sunder, please. I don't watch Top Gear.


"Some say he'll never complete a single story. Others, that he'll die reading in his chair.

"All we know is that he's Sunder."

 

[keroko]

RE: Magic and Technology of NGLN

As a starter, there's Raising Heart, Nanoha's device. Unique that it is the only device shown whose origins are not known, she (because she's voiced by a female) has displayed various capabilities unique to other devices of her kind (having "qualifications", independent movement, training simulations). It makes one wonder what it really is.

Qualifications are part of every Intelligent Device. That's just the user registration. We've seen independent movement done in Vivid on an even more advanced level, so that's not exactly unique either. Which just leaves training simulations which, while we haven't seen them since, might just be a product of Nanoha's private circumstances (she was living on earth, had no access to proper training facilities and had to find ways to fit magical training into her regular life).

While Raising Heart's origins are indeed unknown, the feats we've seen Raising Heart perform are mostly consistent with other Devices we see in the series.

 

[bhl88]

Can this be checked:

Devices
- not mass produced
- mana
- needs math
- specialized and more powerful.

AEC weapons:
- mass produced
- mana conversion to create physical energy beams, explosions
- dumbed-down version of devices that doesn't need any mathematical equations to fire a beam (so you don't have to learn Mid-Childa spells, and there's no circle used when casting and one can fly. However, needs a lot of mana to be used for full potential)
- weaker compared to the more specialized devices, but more flexible

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Can this be checked:

Devices
- not mass produced

Combat-grade staff-type Storage Devices are mass-produced, for the use of TSAB officers. A line of spear-type Armed Devices is also mass-produced for officers who practice Modern Belkan style.

Intelligent Devices are probably never mass-produced, because they are not a popular choice. It may very well be that every single Intelligent Device is a unique, custom design.

Indeed, since compatibility between an Intelligent Device and its intended user is critical, this degree of personalized design is probably important for success.

- specialized and more powerful.

Too general a statement to make about Devices, given that there are at least four different categories of wildly different abilities.

Even Storage Devices have a wide range, between things like the standard issue officer's staff and the high-quality, ultra-specialized Durandal.

Durandal was designed to cast only a single spell (Eternal Coffin), and any other spell it can cast is merely a happy accident of applying that ability in various ways. This is radically different from a Storage Device of similar quality which could have been specialized for Ice-magic in general.

 

[Hoki]

As a starter, there's Raising Heart, Nanoha's device. Unique that it is the only device shown whose origins are not known, she (because she's voiced by a female) has displayed various capabilities unique to other devices of her kind (having "qualifications", independent movement, training simulations). It makes one wonder what it really is.

Qualifications are part of every Intelligent Device. That's just the user registration.

Every intelligent device requires the user to register himself/herself to the device, yes this is true. In Raising Heart's case, however, her first user was treated only as a "guest" despite him knowing the activation spell, and it was not until she was given to Nanoha that she was able to be fully utilized both as a sealing and combat weapon. Even the Book of Darkness doesn't have an explicit qualification in choosing its master. Also, most intelligent devices are made to fit the abilities of their master, the three exceptions are RH, the Book of Darkness, and the Book of the Silver Cross, the latter two being powerful artifacts from ancient belka.

We've seen independent movement done in Vivid on an even more advanced level, so that's not exactly unique either.

Vivid takes place about 13 years (not sure, correct me if I'm wrong) after the original series, so obviously by that time, technology has advanced that devices can be given independent movement. Prior to that, only RH is shown to be capable of moving on her own. The only other devices that could do this are the Book of Darkness and the Book of the Silver Cross; both are lost logia.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Unison Devices are capable of independent movement, and remember that they are still Devices. And they've been around longer than the timeframe in which Raising Heart was in operation.

 

[Hoki]

Unison Devices are capable of independent movement, and remember that they are still Devices. And they've been around longer than the timeframe in which Raising Heart was in operation.

Which brings the question why an intelligent device is capable of independent movement in the same vein as a Unison Device can before the feat can be replicated about a decade later.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Well, for starters, the Intelligent Device is pretty much the Mid-Childan equivalent to Belka's Unison Device. Second of all, it's easier to replicate just one single function than it is to replicate pretty much an entire sentient biomechanical machine. Thirdly, it was owned by an archaeologist before it came into Nanoha's hands. Having a Device that could float and move on its own when you're in the need of both hands while on a dig would be remarkably useful.

 

[Hoki]

Well, for starters, the Intelligent Device is pretty much the Mid-Childan equivalent to Belka's Unison Device. Second of all, it's easier to replicate just one single function than it is to replicate pretty much an entire sentient biomechanical machine. Thirdly, it was owned by an archaeologist before it came into Nanoha's hands. Having a Device that could float and move on its own when you're in the need of both hands while on a dig would be remarkably useful.

So Yuuno programmed it to do that?

 

[Rising Dragon]

Well, for starters, the Intelligent Device is pretty much the Mid-Childan equivalent to Belka's Unison Device. Second of all, it's easier to replicate just one single function than it is to replicate pretty much an entire sentient biomechanical machine. Thirdly, it was owned by an archaeologist before it came into Nanoha's hands. Having a Device that could float and move on its own when you're in the need of both hands while on a dig would be remarkably useful.

So Yuuno programmed it to do that?

Possibly. We know next to nothing about Raising Heart's origins, but it having independent movement doesn't seem to be that big of a deal. Plus we know that these things are capable of taking over their user for a bit, so that's gotta imply some amount of control it has over itself. We saw the same thing happen with Subaru, and it's an issue from the start of IDs, as it's the main reason they're unpopular.

 

[Nanya]

I thought Unison Devices were made after Intelligent Devices because Belka wanted the Intelligent Devices and then took it to an extreme.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

Every intelligent device requires the user to register himself/herself to the device, yes this is true. In Raising Heart's case, however, her first user was treated only as a "guest" despite him knowing the activation spell, and it was not until she was given to Nanoha that she was able to be fully utilized both as a sealing and combat weapon. Even the Book of Darkness doesn't have an explicit qualification in choosing its master. Also, most intelligent devices are made to fit the abilities of their master, the three exceptions are RH, the Book of Darkness, and the Book of the Silver Cross, the latter two being powerful artifacts from ancient belka.

The Book of Darkness chose each of its masters. If it had any particular qualifications, those might have been included in its selection process.

The Bible of the Silver Cross probably kills anyone that doesn't meet its qualifications.

Raising Heart could have been specifically designed for Nanoha by someone with future-seeing abilities. It's silly, but it's a valid possibility.



Also, Unison Devices have FEET, for goodness sake. Of course they can move.

That's completely different from giving something without feet the ability to fly around. Or giving a Device the ability to puppeteer a plush-animal covering.

 

[Rising Dragon]

I thought Unison Devices were made after Intelligent Devices because Belka wanted the Intelligent Devices and then took it to an extreme.

I don't know which came first. All I know is that they're each other's equivalents Device-wise.

 

[Hoki]

Every intelligent device requires the user to register himself/herself to the device, yes this is true. In Raising Heart's case, however, her first user was treated only as a "guest" despite him knowing the activation spell, and it was not until she was given to Nanoha that she was able to be fully utilized both as a sealing and combat weapon. Even the Book of Darkness doesn't have an explicit qualification in choosing its master. Also, most intelligent devices are made to fit the abilities of their master, the three exceptions are RH, the Book of Darkness, and the Book of the Silver Cross, the latter two being powerful artifacts from ancient belka.

The Book of Darkness chose each of its masters. If it had any particular qualifications, those might have been included in its selection process.

It's explicitly stated that the B.o.D chose its master randomly, so I don't believe it has any qualifications that it follows.

The Bible of the Silver Cross probably kills anyone that doesn't meet its qualifications.

The fact that it has a qualification makes it a strange device in itself.

 

[Rising Dragon]

It's explicitly stated that the B.o.D chose its master randomly, so I don't believe it has any qualifications that it follows.

It's also been stated, however, that Reinforce deliberately chose Hayate as a master, so the Book of Darkness has some degree of control over who it goes to.

The Bible of the Silver Cross probably kills anyone that doesn't meet its qualifications.

The fact that it has a qualification makes it a strange device in itself.

Like the Tome of the Night Sky, the Bible of the Silver Cross is a Lost Logia. I don't think we can categorize it properly into any of the known Device classifications.

 

[Sunder the Gold]

The fact that it has a qualification makes it a strange device in itself.

How do you know that Bardiche doesn't have qualifications?

He was made to serve Fate, and Fate alone.

 

[Hoki]

The fact that it has a qualification makes it a strange device in itself.

How do you know that Bardiche doesn't have qualifications?

He was made to serve Fate, and Fate alone.

He was custom made for Fate, much like Cross Mirage and Mach Caliber were made based on the rough devices Tea and Subaru constructed themselves. They don't need qualifications and I doubt anybody else can use them. This is similar to having ace pilots in series like Gundam having custom units. They make their units unique because they want something that suits their abilities.

 

[bhl88]

I guess by qualified to mean: custom made such that the person would be immediately qualified anyway.

If said person/mage was a guest, is the intelligent device able to guard and do some spells (the response time being slower, than someone who was meant for it: aka Nanoha)

 

[Gx Hero]

one thing I was thinking about the magic in the nanoha series is that anyone can use it, but it seems to be able to be broken down into equations to help guide and form spells. For the average magic user it seems to manifest as a magic circle. During the Sound stage they had trouble making a device for Hayate.

Also it seems acording to the second sound stage that parts for an intelligence device's aren't cheap otherwise Nanoha would have given Vivio a intelligence device, same with Hayate making einheart's and lutecia.


THen agian when I think about it Nove has an intelligence device. Wonder why a lot of the military charecters didn't upgrade their devices with one after all Subaru's and Ginga's revolver knuckles didn't have an A.I. till after they joined riot force 6 and Genya was a high ranking member.

It is confusing why people didn't have an intelligence device. Sorry for the Rambling

 

[keroko]

Every intelligent device requires the user to register himself/herself to the device, yes this is true. In Raising Heart's case, however, her first user was treated only as a "guest" despite him knowing the activation spell, and it was not until she was given to Nanoha that she was able to be fully utilized both as a sealing and combat weapon. Even the Book of Darkness doesn't have an explicit qualification in choosing its master. Also, most intelligent devices are made to fit the abilities of their master, the three exceptions are RH, the Book of Darkness, and the Book of the Silver Cross, the latter two being powerful artifacts from ancient belka.

I've heard the guest user theory before, however the series never mentions Yuuno being a guest user. Was this from the movie?

Which brings the question why an intelligent device is capable of independent movement in the same vein as a Unison Device can before the feat can be replicated about a decade later.

You're confusing "can be replicated" with "before we see it again." Just because Bardiche doesn't float around as much as Raising Heart doesn't mean he can't. He definitely floats during Fate's transformation scene, for example.

one thing I was thinking about the magic in the nanoha series is that anyone can use it, but it seems to be able to be broken down into equations to help guide and form spells. For the average magic user it seems to manifest as a magic circle. During the Sound stage they had trouble making a device for Hayate.

Yeah, because Hayate's insane magic power kept blowing them up.

Also it seems acording to the second sound stage that parts for an intelligence device's aren't cheap otherwise Nanoha would have given Vivio a intelligence device, same with Hayate making einheart's and lutecia.

But Chris and Teo are intelligent devices...

THen agian when I think about it Nove has an intelligence device. Wonder why a lot of the military charecters didn't upgrade their devices with one after all Subaru's and Ginga's revolver knuckles didn't have an A.I. till after they joined riot force 6 and Genya was a high ranking member.

It is confusing why people didn't have an intelligence device. Sorry for the Rambling

It's not standard TSAB policy to hand out intelligent devices willy nilly. There's a bit of a social stigma against them. Mages serving the bureau get armed or storage devices. Revolver knuckles are armed devices, and damned good quality ones at that. Messing with them wouldn't be smart.

As for Subaru and Teana's individual devices... well, they were home-made low quality stuff. Sometimes it's just simply better to build something from scratch.

 

[Hoki]

Every intelligent device requires the user to register himself/herself to the device, yes this is true. In Raising Heart's case, however, her first user was treated only as a "guest" despite him knowing the activation spell, and it was not until she was given to Nanoha that she was able to be fully utilized both as a sealing and combat weapon. Even the Book of Darkness doesn't have an explicit qualification in choosing its master. Also, most intelligent devices are made to fit the abilities of their master, the three exceptions are RH, the Book of Darkness, and the Book of the Silver Cross, the latter two being powerful artifacts from ancient belka.

I've heard the guest user theory before, however the series never mentions Yuuno being a guest user. Was this from the movie?

Yup, well, I at the very least, accept this explanation on the basis that the movie is basically a biographical movie within the Nanoha-verse. Since this is the case, the rules of magic and technology are about the same. It was mentioned there (during Nanoha's first transformation sequence) that her magical power s the qualification Nanoha met to have full access to RH. Since Yuuno can only use her for sealing, (shown in S1 and implied that he can't do anything else) I concluded that Yuuno is treated as a "guest."

This is supported by the fact that Vivio apparently used RH as a substitute device before being given Sacred Heart, implying that RH can register "guest users" and give them limited device capabilities.

Which brings the question why an intelligent device is capable of independent movement in the same vein as a Unison Device can before the feat can be replicated about a decade later.

You're confusing "can be replicated" with "before we see it again." Just because Bardiche doesn't float around as much as Raising Heart doesn't mean he can't. He definitely floats during Fate's transformation scene, for example.

Doesn't Fate throw Bardiche in the air? Either way, transformation sequences don't count because technically, it only takes a few seconds for a mage go into full battle gear. I peg transformation sequences as fanservice scenes.

 

[Rising Dragon]

Regardless of whether or not Fate throws Bardiche into the air, the fact remains that it hovers afterwards and doesn't fall to the ground. And it's not always because of an instant transformation--remember when Nanoha and Fate got their Devices back after the Cartridge System was installed?

 

[Sunder the Gold]

@: Yuuno as Guest User

http://nanoha.wikia.com/wiki/Raising_Heart

"In The MOVIE 1st, Yuuno is explained to be only a "Guest" user (外部使用者) instead of registering as her Master. For a Guest, only the searching and sealing functions could be used."

Having not watched the movie and not knowing Japanese, I'll have to leave that to others to corroborate.


Chapter 8, page 7 of the 1st Movie manga tells us that Raising Heart had never registered a "Master" user until Nanoha. While this is a seperate continuity (even from the movie itself, let alone the original series), I'm reasonably sure we can accept it as canon across all continuities. (Even Innocent, humorously enough.)

 

[Hoki]

Regardless of whether or not Fate throws Bardiche into the air, the fact remains that it hovers afterwards and doesn't fall to the ground. And it's not always because of an instant transformation--remember when Nanoha and Fate got their Devices back after the Cartridge System was installed?

Okay, point taken, since upon much thinking, the ability to hover for intelligent devices serves no more than a cosmetic function, not unlike Unison Devices.