Harry Potter Magic/Science Bitchfest thread
- Thread starter Prince Charon
- Start date
Eh...
So there are two ways I think about this.
1) Physical Model
2) Literary Tropes
If it's the (2), then the danger is a crappy deus ex machina where cheap plot events alter the flow of the story with a too-convenient handwave of "magic". I don't have a problem with characters dealing with, or even using, things they don't understand, but I do have a problem with the author abusing that to cheaply resolve plots. I don't know that I can define the distinction but I'm confident you can at least accept my sentiment.
If it's (1), then all physical phenomena are subject to the systemic data collection and investigation of "science". Even if it's at a rudimentary level, then there are already characters that perform what we'd consider "science"--didn't Dumbledore codify the 12 uses of dragon blood?
Especially...
"Al" is the Arabic definite article, it's the word "the".
Considering the influence of Muslims like Jabir, "Al chemy" and "The chemistry"...
Science vs. Magic is, from a historical perspective, a false dichotomy.
And if it's physics...
Compared to the contradiction between quantum mechanics and general relativity, all we're doing is introducing a third set of phenomena into the contradiction.
It's not that "magic" is something that can't be scrutinized with scientific methods, it's that the "magical world" has forcibly maintained separation with the social institutions and individuals who make up the "science world".
I guess what I'm getting at is, I think the divide between "Science" and "Magic" is sociopolitical, not universal.
EDIT: CAVEAT:
Well, this is all for in a fictional universe with discrete phenomena that are put under the umbrella label "magic".
In the real word, magic is a misnomer; things happen, and sometimes we don't know why, but calling it "magic" is giving up, and not using enough science.
So there are two ways I think about this.
1) Physical Model
2) Literary Tropes
If it's the (2), then the danger is a crappy deus ex machina where cheap plot events alter the flow of the story with a too-convenient handwave of "magic". I don't have a problem with characters dealing with, or even using, things they don't understand, but I do have a problem with the author abusing that to cheaply resolve plots. I don't know that I can define the distinction but I'm confident you can at least accept my sentiment.
If it's (1), then all physical phenomena are subject to the systemic data collection and investigation of "science". Even if it's at a rudimentary level, then there are already characters that perform what we'd consider "science"--didn't Dumbledore codify the 12 uses of dragon blood?
Especially...
"Al" is the Arabic definite article, it's the word "the".
Considering the influence of Muslims like Jabir, "Al chemy" and "The chemistry"...
Science vs. Magic is, from a historical perspective, a false dichotomy.
And if it's physics...
Compared to the contradiction between quantum mechanics and general relativity, all we're doing is introducing a third set of phenomena into the contradiction.
It's not that "magic" is something that can't be scrutinized with scientific methods, it's that the "magical world" has forcibly maintained separation with the social institutions and individuals who make up the "science world".
I guess what I'm getting at is, I think the divide between "Science" and "Magic" is sociopolitical, not universal.
EDIT: CAVEAT:
Well, this is all for in a fictional universe with discrete phenomena that are put under the umbrella label "magic".
In the real word, magic is a misnomer; things happen, and sometimes we don't know why, but calling it "magic" is giving up, and not using enough science.
Something that is not capable of being understood can not be effectively used. You may stumble upon the occasional use for it, but it can never be studied or advanced.
If magic cannot be studied, EVERY use of it was discovered by accident. Someone might discover that saying a particular phrase in a language, which do change over time, will kill someone nearby, or change a bird into a tree, or whatever. But there would be NO advances in magic. There would never be anything new discovered except by accident.
Something that is random can't be effectively used. Or used at all if it's completly random. If it isn't completely random that implies that something's limiting it. Which means there's ruless controling it that can be studied. There may be too many variables to understand it completely, like figuring out the weather, but the science behind it is still there.
If it's completly random using it is suicidal. No animals would have delveloped that can use it, since any individuals that did would die quickly. And using it would be limited to "succeed or die" situations.
Science is the study of how reality works. If magic is a part of reality, and has rules, it can be studied. It is part of science. If it has no rules it can't be used.
In order for magic to mean anything in a story it HAS to be usable. Even in settings where it's manipulating pure Chaos, there's still rules behind it. So there's a reason it works the way it does, which means it can be studied, which means science.
If magic cannot be studied, EVERY use of it was discovered by accident. Someone might discover that saying a particular phrase in a language, which do change over time, will kill someone nearby, or change a bird into a tree, or whatever. But there would be NO advances in magic. There would never be anything new discovered except by accident.
Something that is random can't be effectively used. Or used at all if it's completly random. If it isn't completely random that implies that something's limiting it. Which means there's ruless controling it that can be studied. There may be too many variables to understand it completely, like figuring out the weather, but the science behind it is still there.
If it's completly random using it is suicidal. No animals would have delveloped that can use it, since any individuals that did would die quickly. And using it would be limited to "succeed or die" situations.
Science is the study of how reality works. If magic is a part of reality, and has rules, it can be studied. It is part of science. If it has no rules it can't be used.
In order for magic to mean anything in a story it HAS to be usable. Even in settings where it's manipulating pure Chaos, there's still rules behind it. So there's a reason it works the way it does, which means it can be studied, which means science.
Not sure if this is the thread for it, but here it goes.
Anyone else tired of Fusions that break simple common sense? I read recently a Green Lantern/Harry Potter fusion, and it struck me ... if superheroes existed in the Mundane World, would the Statute of Secrecy even exist?
Let's face it: DC or Marvel, both have magical based heroes, both would immediately prove magic to the world. And it isn't like these heroes won't be noticed on different continents, let alone English-speaking lands.
I've seen 1 or 2, if that, that fix this major plothole by having the comic hero land in this world and try and make a name and fortune for themselves.
Now, some science, I can understand. If the magicals in HP ignored the Mundane Nukes, they would ignore a lot.
But ignoring Dr. Fate or Dr. Strange is simply too out there.
Anyone else tired of Fusions that break simple common sense? I read recently a Green Lantern/Harry Potter fusion, and it struck me ... if superheroes existed in the Mundane World, would the Statute of Secrecy even exist?
Let's face it: DC or Marvel, both have magical based heroes, both would immediately prove magic to the world. And it isn't like these heroes won't be noticed on different continents, let alone English-speaking lands.
I've seen 1 or 2, if that, that fix this major plothole by having the comic hero land in this world and try and make a name and fortune for themselves.
Now, some science, I can understand. If the magicals in HP ignored the Mundane Nukes, they would ignore a lot.
But ignoring Dr. Fate or Dr. Strange is simply too out there.
In most of those comics, supers/mutants/etc have only been around for 80 or less years depending on the individual timeline. That's well under the reaction time of the Magical World. They might not even be aware of the existence of other metahumans. They might try to contain people like Dr. Strange with obliviation etc but probably fail.
Still, evidence adds up. The fact that they'd keep ignoring the same problems seems ludicrous.
However, given their Dark Lord issues, not too far out there.
The problem is that many writers ignore the issues that would get them there. They ignore any central issues. They may ignore 1 or 2 super heroes, but include the rest, or make it like it is a big surprise to all involved that these people exist.
For me, the problem wasn't that a GL existed in this universe, but no proper back-stopping was done. It was basically saying okay, a super hero existed before this and others, but they don't count, so moving on. Doesn't matter if they knew Superman or such existed years before this, it doesn't count.
Basically, what pains me is that they threw two different genres together with no effort to even try and fit them together. If it conflicts, well, I say it doesn't, and that fixes it.
However, given their Dark Lord issues, not too far out there.
The problem is that many writers ignore the issues that would get them there. They ignore any central issues. They may ignore 1 or 2 super heroes, but include the rest, or make it like it is a big surprise to all involved that these people exist.
For me, the problem wasn't that a GL existed in this universe, but no proper back-stopping was done. It was basically saying okay, a super hero existed before this and others, but they don't count, so moving on. Doesn't matter if they knew Superman or such existed years before this, it doesn't count.
Basically, what pains me is that they threw two different genres together with no effort to even try and fit them together. If it conflicts, well, I say it doesn't, and that fixes it.
It's probably possible to cross over HP and a superhero universe, but it would require some effort to make plausible. One version I read has it that if you use magic in public, you must give no hints that magical society exists, and the wizarding world is about as aware of superheroes as they are of, say, helicopters, and have sort of grudgingly accepted the existence of even the magical ones, because they simply don't have a chance of stopping Dr. Fate, but still want to remain hidden.
There's a few fics I recall that seem to go that route, to varying degrees, including the frequent 'the rules are different in America' thing. I may start a thread in the ideas forum for crossing over superhero worlds with HP.
Here's a couple examples, one silly, one serious, of fics that fit the concept above, to some degree:
<a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2586094/1/Harry_Potter_Raven' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Harry Potter: Raven</a>, by Shadow Crystal Mage - if you're not familiar with his work, I'll just say that it's redundant to call this the silly one, even though it has very serious moments.
<a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3243598/1/Wizards_Superheroes_and_Jackalopes' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Wizards Superheroes and Jackalopes</a>, by Willow-Bee the Cat. Despite the name, this one's more serious (as a side-note, it's one of the better-handled R/Hr pairings our there).
There's a few fics I recall that seem to go that route, to varying degrees, including the frequent 'the rules are different in America' thing. I may start a thread in the ideas forum for crossing over superhero worlds with HP.
Here's a couple examples, one silly, one serious, of fics that fit the concept above, to some degree:
<a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/2586094/1/Harry_Potter_Raven' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Harry Potter: Raven</a>, by Shadow Crystal Mage - if you're not familiar with his work, I'll just say that it's redundant to call this the silly one, even though it has very serious moments.
<a href='http://www.fanfiction.net/s/3243598/1/Wizards_Superheroes_and_Jackalopes' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Wizards Superheroes and Jackalopes</a>, by Willow-Bee the Cat. Despite the name, this one's more serious (as a side-note, it's one of the better-handled R/Hr pairings our there).