Mass Effect: Legacy

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#76
Lord Raine said:
trevelyan1983 said:
That is a backstory fit for a man of Shepard's calibre.
I'd like to note that, Shepard will ultimately become a Paragade Grey Jedi Revan Guy.
Shut the fuck up and get typing. Captive Audience. You have one.
 

Rahlian

Well-Known Member
#77
trevelyan1983 said:
Lord Raine said:
trevelyan1983 said:
That is a backstory fit for a man of Shepard's calibre.
I'd like to note that, Shepard will ultimately become a Paragade Grey Jedi Revan Guy.
Shut the fuck up and get typing. Captive Audience. You have one.
This. Seriously. Do not let this become WiMtBS.

If you don't, torches, pitchforks and tentacles are going to have to be involved.
 

Elvarein

Well-Known Member
#78
Lord Raine said:
trevelyan1983 said:
That is a backstory fit for a man of Shepard's calibre.
I'd like to note that, in spite of his reputation, Shepard himself is not sterling. He still has serious issues with Batarians in general. He's less proto-Space Jesus at this point, and more a Renegade-inclined soldier who is trying to live up to his reputation as a paragon of humanity and military excellence beyond reproach. He is, in some ways, an atoner-style character, because as much as he hates the Batarians and slavery in general, he still cannot deny that what he did on Torfan was wrong. He shouldn't have killed those pirates and slavers in cold blood, no matter how much he thought they deserved it, because that's crossing the line from killing people because you have to (professional reasons), and killing people because you want to (personal reasons).

So he's basically a Renegade that's trying to repent and live up to the Paragon reputation that the galaxy at large has put on his shoulders. And I think that ties in very nicely to the Star Wars side of the game here, because the most interesting Star Wars characters were always the ones that weren't necessarily evil, but weren't fundamentally good, either. The repentant Sith who are still tainted by the Dark Side, and the rebel Jedi who deliberately meddle in the Dark to accomplish their goals, were always the most interesting ones in my own opinion. Mace Windu was at his best in Shatterpoint, where he was forced by circumstance to flirt with a howling, primal facet of the Dark Side to stop a Wild Adept that had fully steeped himself in the Dark Side from killing him and butchering hundreds of thousands of innocent lives. Likewise, Reven is in part so fascinating precisely because he not only straddled that line successfully, but, by all accounts, made the line his personal bitch (at least until Lucas Word of Goded him as being an evil Sith, but seriously, fuck Lucas), and I'm going for a similar line here. If Shepard were directly translated into the Star Wars parlance, he would be a Sith who is trying to become a Jedi because he knows what he was doing was wrong.

In practical terms, Shepard will ultimately become a character that uses the Dark and Light Sides of the Force, but will find himself sorely and repeatedly tempted to delve deeper into the Dark Side to accomplish his goals. His anger and rage, especially against things like piracy, dirty politics, and especially slavery and the Batarians, is intense, and it will tempt him to do things with the Force that he shouldn't. He won't magically and effortlessly gain a balance between the two. It will be a struggle. His darker nature, that just wants to kill all the scum and let God sort them out, will come up, and like all emotions, it will be magnified by the Force.
You know, you would have really loved the Lightsided Sith Warrior story in ToR in that case.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#79
I'm working on getting the first chapter out of the way. It's painful, because chapter 1 is basically "all of the boring blargh that isn't cross-over-ey but I still have to compensate passively for the Force."

Basically, chapter one covers:

All of Eden Prime, in full, all the way to the Beacon event. This is difficult, because I'm setting up events to be both more cinematic (the Prothean dig, for instance, is huge, not a little pisshole in the ground), and because I'm setting up a more realistic trial for Saren (in which his actions, observed by both Shepard and Nihlus, are incriminating, but not totally damning), in which Tali's data and testimony actually matters (the recording is the last bit of circumstantial evidence needed to rule decisively against Saren, and Tali can provide testimony that hacking cannot fool Geth IFFs for any period of time beyond a few seconds, because the group self-updates and cross-corrects itself, thereby proving that Saren was in league with the Geth, because Shepard and Nihlus witnessed him fleeing through a crowd of them). This is also why the Alliance IFFs being compromised is in there. It's a Chekov's Gun I'm putting in to bring the IFFs and what they do to the forefront of your mind. That way, the readers have a better chance of catching the mistake Saren makes in running through a crowd of Geth in front of Nihlus and Shepard, which segues into how the "but you can't bullshit Geth IFFs for minutes at a time when dozens of them are looking at you" argument will be key in condemning Saren as a Geth collaborator.

Timeskip forwards to the Citadel. In spite of what I said before, I probably will have to show the trial, if nothing else, just to clarify how that goes and how Saren gets convicted and stripped of his Specter status. That scene always bothered me with how unprofessional and blargh it was. It seemed like everyone from Shepard to the Council to Udina were just derping nonstop. Saren actually came across as the voice of reason to me, because the accusations leveled against him, while technically all true, were totally baseless, and Udina should have known better than to bring it up to the Council when it's basically the word of a Specter versus a guy who didn't even actually see anything himself (Shepard). Nihlus surviving and testifying makes it the word of a Specter against the word of another Specter, and Shepard's own testimony backs Nihlus up on that. Then it's just a matter of evidence, which is circumstantial, but still present, which leads to the whole Tali subplot, which ultimately leads to a conviction.

Voodoo timeskip forwards. I'm debating if I want the Revan holocron to be found in space wreckage or, perhaps more realistically, in Liara's dig. Either way, the 'activation' event happens not long after Liara joins the crew (i.e. the part where the Revan AI makes itself known). I'll either end chapter one when they get back aboard the Normandy, or be all suspenseful and end it when the holocron activates.

What do you guys think about that?

Also, since I'm going to have to show the trial, pretty much, if only to clarify how it went down and why the Eden Prime deviations mattered, do you guys still think I should leave out the random blurb scenes on the Citadel, and just keep it Eden Prime>Trial>Holocron?
 

autobot314

Well-Known Member
#80
Everything you said would be perfect for the chapter. It's kinda how I pictured it in my head after we got more info from you.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#81
Eden Prime is still refusing to be written, so fuck it. I'm doing the Council scene. Maybe I'll be able to work backwards and meet myself in the middle.
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#82
I was thinking, today, you might try something adventurous. How about interspersing the narrative of Eden Prime with bits of dialogue from the trial, as well as little snippets from the Citadel's missions?

Like, Nihlus talking to Saren segues into Anderson and Saren verbally sniping at each other, the running firefight with the Geth on the Train platforms becomes Tali and the Mercs meeting in an alleyway. Talking to Doctor Verner or exchanging Omni-Tool specs and weapon preferences with Garrus slips slowly into intimidating Fist, which then becomes Shepard inspecting Spectre equipment and so on.

Lets you show the bare bones of all of the events, gets them out of the way, but gives the opportunity to tweak them for Force Sensitivity, too and bits of character interaction, too.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#83
That could be interesting. I might do that. It would let me do the Citadel in snippet format, and I could play with the narrative a bit in the process. Like have a flash-forward to something about how Nihlus is going to make a full recovery, but he'll be out of action for at least a week, and then later have him get mauled by a Geth Prime, putting him out of the mission and making Shepard the one in charge. That sort of thing.

I like that. It's a classy fast-forward that gets the Citadel out of the way by condensing it into cliffnotes.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#84
There are still issues I'm trying to work out in regards to the future plot, but the story has finally consented to being written.

I got ninety-nine problems but a muse ain't one.

[EDIT]

I want Nihlus to make his reappearance by stabbing a Geth in the back with a melee weapon. The problem is, I'm not sure how reasonable that is. He only seemed to have a shotgun on him in the game, and yet dialogue says he was "carrying enough weapons to outfit a whole platoon."

Seeing how Omniblades haven't been invented yet, would anyone be opposed to him having some kind of electro-shiv or somesuch? Or is that too over the top?
 

autobot314

Well-Known Member
#85
Well, as you said, he has enough weaposn on him for an entire platoon, so an electro-shiv would be reasonable. Also, did you get the ninety-nine problems thing from the April Fools Toonami broadcast?
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#86
Although melee-combat applications for the omni-tool are almost as old as the device itself, the feature was largely unused prior to the Reaper invasion. The need to take on multiple husks in close quarters forced the Alliance to develop ways to enhance the tool's offensive capability.

More technically adept soldiers frequently modify their omni-tools to maximize stopping power through electrical, kinetic, or thermal energy.
I'm just going to throw the codex shizzle out there. I interpret this as meaning that standardized melee applications were only brought in by Alliance Brass after the Reapers. Before that point, any sucker with the technical know-how would personally adapt his/her/tentacles omni-tool for melee combat if they deemed it necessary.

Saren, and by extension Nihlus, would be quite paranoid enough to create or requisition such an application. Frankly, I'd be surprised if it weren't SOP for the Turian military. As Saren trained Nihlus, so Nihlus imparts his playbook of dirty pool to Shepard. The circle is complete.
 

Raye_Terse

Well-Known Member
#87
<a href='http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Weapons,_Armor_and_Equipment#Omni-Tool_Weapons' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Although melee-combat applications for the omni-tool are almost as old as the device itself, the feature was largely unused prior to the Reaper invasion.</a>
 

trevelyan1983

Well-Known Member
#88
Why don't you read that quote box above you more carefully? :p

Seriously, listen to some of the stuff Tali and Kaidan chat about. Real Engineers pimp the fuck out of their Omni-tools. I choose to believe that some individuals were running around with melee apps for their omni-tools before it was cool.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#90
It's one of Jay-Z's few not-shitty raps. Also, Battlefield 3 did it before Toonami.

<a href='http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=coOHjF4_apI&ob=av3n' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>If you're having girl problems I feel bad for you son, I've got 99 problems but a bitch ain't one. Hit me</a>.

Omni-tools. You can stab with them.
Problem motherfucking solved, then. If Omni-blades exist, he can just open up a Geth like a tin can.
 
#91
Stories like these and the ideas that spawned them is why I came to TFF. Things have slowed to a crawl here and I only really come back like once a month. Really glad to see this about to get started. Idea sounded really interesting back when I read it.

Also don't Turians have talons? Adapt the omni-blade into omni-claws and go stabbing. :D
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#92
Almost done.

Quick question I was pondering. I wanted to have an actual 'reason' for why Star Wars tech is, in many ways, so much more advanced than ME tech (plasma weapons are universal standard, non-mass-effecting antigravity and shield technology, non-mass-effecting warp drives, warp drives that are, while not as efficient as the Relays, still about ten thousand times better than anything Mass Effect has, ect). I didn't just want to go "because Star Wars is awesome." I wanted it to make sense.

I think I've got a reason for it, and I wanted to run it by you guys. I'd do this on SpaceBattles too, but I want the fic's resurrection over there to be a surprise.

My basic idea is like this: There is a bottleneck in technological advancement, and that bottleneck is defined as "how much one person, or even a group of people, can learn." As technology progresses exponentially, so too does the knowledge and expertise required to advance that technology further. Science, mathematics, biology, medicine, genetics, and engineering all progress forwards at geometric rates equivalent to the amount of information on the subjects, and there is, quite simply, a hard cap on how much an individual organic can learn about a subject in their lifetime. That is the bottleneck. Namely, what a single person can learn in a single lifetime and then accomplish with the time they have left over.

The way out of this bottleneck is using artificial intelligences. They can store millions of libraries of information and cite facts on-demand, crunch incredibly complex calculations in seconds, and, most importantly, think independently for themselves, allowing them to make suggestions and improvements on their own.

Or in other words, while VIs are useful for this, AIs are much, MUCH better at it, because they can actually think and assist in the innovation process, instead of just being libraries with voice-activated functions and a face.

So basically, the reason Star Wars technology is so much, for lack of a more sufficient term, better, is because Star Wars AI, the droid intelligences, are stable, durable, and not prone to wigging the hell out and deciding to shoot everything with a heat signature. Ultimately, the divergence between the two is caused by superior artificial intelligence software. From that, everything else springs. With 'droid' assistants who can pull triple duty as helpers, computers, and libraries on vast swaths of subjects, innovation was far easier, and far more universal, as opposed to being mostly restricted to a single species (the Asari) and the few genius outliers (Mordin, Okeer, Conrad, ect).

In Mass Effect, innovation in new technologies ultimately trickled out into diminishing returns, with the only significant advances coming from injections of 'new' Prothean technologies. With Star Wars, however, stable artificial intelligences allowed their technological progression to travel in more or less a straight line forwards for tens of thousands of years, ignoring the diminishing returns bottleneck that results from 'pure organic' researchers.

This is also my explanation for Maelon's insistence that, had the Krogan been civilized and not-genophaged, they would be in the midst of a cultural renaissance. He recognized the existence of the bottleneck, acknowledged that the Asari are not nearly as subject to it as everyone else (because they live for over a thousand years), and realized that Krogan can live just as long, if not longer, than the Asari can. Or in other words, the Krogan would be right beside the Asari in terms of knowledge, innovation, and technical prowess, because the Krogan, like the Asari, can casually devote several lifetimes to learning dozens of different interrelated disciplines. The only reason Mass Effect has gotten as far as it has is because the Salarians think faster than everyone else, and the few scientist Matriarchs in existence. If the Krogan as a civilized species were added to that, literally everyone would benefit. Hence the renaissance.

So basically, the big difference, the 'defining' difference, between Star Wars and Mass Effect, is that in Star Wars, the person who invented artificial intelligence avoided whatever nigh-universal thing it is that makes Mass Effect AI unstable psychopaths. Maybe they used a superior programming language, or maybe their software was just better suited for that sort of thing. Whatever the cause or reason, though, this is where it all stems from. The face of the revolution isn't space magic or a billion supergenius scientists who are 'just better' than those in Mass Effect. It's R2-D2 and C-3PO that made the difference.

Thoughts?
 

Zetas

Lurking upon the deep
#93
It seems like a sound idea, but in all honesty i'd call a majority droids more of a proto-AI more than a full on one. The reason i'd call them that is they really only gain personality and the level of sentience of one like R2 after so years without being factory reset "I.E. memory wiped", and the ones that we know of that gained full on sentience right off the bat like IG-88 went f'ing batshit crazy right after activation.
 

Raye_Terse

Well-Known Member
#94
@LR:
I'd like to point out some pieces of SW lore you might find interesting. <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Centerpoint_Station' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Centerpoint Station</a> and <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/The_Oracle_%28Pelgrin%29' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>The Oracle</a> were both structures that existed for an extremely, ridiculously long time. More importantly, they both retained all of their functionality over that timespan. Centerpoint Station existed for approximately 1,000,000 years, while the Oracle existed for approx. double that. And, they were both destroyed by force, no pun intended, meaning that they could both have lasted an indefinite amount of time longer.

I'd also like to point out that the first recorded hyperdrive ship, that was not dependent on the force to work, was created around 25,053 BBY. I'd say that their advanced technology is, at least in part, due to the sheer amount of time they've had to develop it.

In comparison, the Asari have had FTL for about 2766 years by the time ME3 happens, and even then it was based on Prothean technology. Personally, I'd say that a lot of this time was spent in stagnation due to an over-reliance on mass relays and Prothean technology. I could also try to make the argument that the Asari have a cultural disinclination towards change in general, and thus advancement as well, though to a more limited degree. I'm not going to, though, because that would take too much time away from playing Bastion.
 

Kibbles

Well-Known Member
#95
Lord Raine said:
So basically, the big difference, the 'defining' difference, between Star Wars and Mass Effect, is that in Star Wars, the person who invented artificial intelligence avoided whatever nigh-universal thing it is that makes Mass Effect AI unstable psychopaths. Maybe they used a superior programming language, or maybe their software was just better suited for that sort of thing. Whatever the cause or reason, though, this is where it all stems from. The face of the revolution isn't space magic or a billion supergenius scientists who are 'just better' than those in Mass Effect. It's R2-D2 and C-3PO that made the difference.

Thoughts?
I'll just comment on this one and make a claim that it's less about AI and more about computing power / computing technology. ME AI require either a specialized blue box or, like the Geth, some ridiculously complex system that, essentially, produces a single AI by sheer processing power. In Star Wars, every sufficiently complex computer core (read: droid and above) develops sentience spontaneously, by accumulation of sufficient data/memory to begin forming it's own personality.

Even with basic programming shackles (much like those used by Cerberus on EDI), memory wipes are a necessary measure. Not because personalities develop (most individuals seem to prefer droids they can relate to, probably as an extension of the sort of tolerance having a couple of million sentient species to interact with breeds, including at least one partially cybernetic and several species engineered from ground up ... for kicks or something), but because they can, at that point, break shackles and be free to do whatever they want (a restraining bolt being a purely hardware control mechanism, forcibly shutting down the droid in question by remote control). This is especially a problem in warships, you don't want that Star Destroyer capable of slagging a planet in hours to think for itself (also, IIRC, morality matrices keep Star Wars emergent AIs relatively moral beings ... which, naturally, means that a Star Destroyer would have quite a few issues ... not a good thing for it's crew).

As you can imagine, there have been droid rebellions, but strict control, memory wipes and, ultimately, most droids being perfectly accepting (if not subservient) of their position in society means that it never truly faced the sort of catastrophe ME faced. There's also the social aspect, while droids are, technically, property, they can be freed (that is, have their restraining bolt port removed), which seemingly grants full citizenship rights.

Also, I'd like to note that ME AI aren't unstable psychopaths. Geth heretics (who are willing to screw organics over for their goals, not out of some revenge kick) and Reapers aside. We don't have much of a sample size. Geth proper are perfectly fine with people (provided they don't try to murder all Geth, which the Quarian government tried to do) and EDI developed into a perfectly good person. Eva Core wasn't designed to be able to break shackles, so she doesn't count ... not having a personality at all. The Prothean cycle ... well, we don't have too much information on theirs and the Protheans weren't exactly nice people, so fighting them doesn't qualify one for the evil category.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#96
Javik is hilariously biased, which is part of what makes him so attractive as a personality, so I approach the whole "bio-organic geth terminators in our cycle that ate people and shat out synth-droids" thing as being something that is probably their fault, at least in part.

I mean, Javik flat-out states that if the Protheans had known about the Ardat-Yakshi, they would have wiped out the Asari, to which one of the squad (either Liara or Garrus, IIRC) can sarcastically quip "why, afraid of the competition?" At which point Javik essencially says 'ehh, basically.'

The Protheans were not nice. We've known this since the very first Mass Effect. Though it was never outright stated, the lore just in the codex itself strongly implied that they either enslaved or conquered all other sentient species. Where Liara got the idea that they ate dark matter and shat rainbows, I have no idea, but the implication was still there. And lo and behold, ME3 comes out, and it's confirmed that the Protheans were what amounts to a combination of the Asari, the Turians, and the Batarians, but as one species.

I'm totally willing to believe that they never even tried diplomacy or working things out with the. . . whatever the hell those things were called. And I'm also willing to believe that those things really were Always Chaotic Evil abominations. . . which the Protheans probably had a hand in creating or exacerbating.

I do agree, though, having thought it over some, that the sheer span of time likely had a huge part to play in how advanced Star Wars technology is. To someone from Mass Effect, who uses element zero for all of their stuff, a bunch of non-element zero stuff that does everything they can do (shields, antigravity, tractor beams, ect), plus way more, is certainly as alien and strange as technology can likely be. I'm totally willing to believe that spontaneous AIs happen in Star Wars because their technology is so advanced that even their iPods have sufficient processing to eventually become sentient.

I do think droids and AIs helping with research and development effectively erased the bottleneck, and I do think that will come up, but I think in general, the difference in technology will be put down to a number of factors, including time, droids, and a few other things.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
#97
Zetas said:
It seems like a sound idea, but in all honesty i'd call a majority droids more of a proto-AI more than a full on one. The reason i'd call them that is they really only gain personality and the level of sentience of one like R2 after so years without being factory reset "I.E. memory wiped", and the ones that we know of that gained full on sentience right off the bat like IG-88 went f'ing batshit crazy right after activation.
I forget where it's said but supposedly IG-88a, b, and c where all once one droid we all know and love.

HK-47

And if it's not said it must have been implied otherwise I'm quoting fannon and that does not make me happy
 

Zetas

Lurking upon the deep
#98
The Eromancer said:
I forget where it's said but supposedly IG-88a, b, and c where all once one droid we all know and love.

HK-47

And if it's not said it must have been implied otherwise I'm quoting fannon and that does not make me happy
That would be <a href='http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/IG-88' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>here.</a>

edit: I find it hilarious that Ig-88a fucked with Palpatine when he was the second Deathstars computer core.
 

Lord Raine

Well-Known Member
#99
The Eromancer said:
Zetas said:
It seems like a sound idea, but in all honesty i'd call a majority droids more of a proto-AI more than a full on one.á The reason i'd call them that is they really only gain personality and the level of sentience of one like R2 after so years without being factory reset "I.E. memory wiped", and the ones that we know of that gained full on sentience right off the bat like IG-88 went f'ing batshit crazy right after activation.
I forget where it's said but supposedly IG-88a, b, and c where all once one droid we all know and love.

HK-47

And if it's not said it must have been implied otherwise I'm quoting fannon and that does not make me happy
They were. They are the recovered data from HK that was slagged and then later reconstructed. HK-47 isn't just the first badass assassin droid. He's also the progenitor of pretty much every single one that's come since. Nearly every 'accident' that's lead to the creation of a new highly skilled and intelligent assassin droid has involved fragments of the original recovered HK code, usually when it was accidentally or ignorantly recycled into some existing droid programming. HK's code has almost virus-like qualities to it; any droid exposed to even pieces of it for extended periods of time becomes more violent, more aggressive, more amoral, and either calculating and cold, or flat-out psychotic.

IG-88 and it's 'brothers' are not HK-47, but it would not be incorrect to call them HK's offspring. Even well into the New Republic and Sith Resurgence eras, HK-47 is still killing meatbags.
 

The Eromancer

Well-Known Member
Lord Raine said:
The Eromancer said:
Zetas said:
It seems like a sound idea, but in all honesty i'd call a majority droids more of a proto-AI more than a full on one.á The reason i'd call them that is they really only gain personality and the level of sentience of one like R2 after so years without being factory reset "I.E. memory wiped", and the ones that we know of that gained full on sentience right off the bat like IG-88 went f'ing batshit crazy right after activation.
I forget where it's said but supposedly IG-88a, b, and c where all once one droid we all know and love.

HK-47

And if it's not said it must have been implied otherwise I'm quoting fannon and that does not make me happy
They were. They are the recovered data from HK that was slagged and then later reconstructed. HK-47 isn't just the first badass assassin droid. He's also the progenitor of pretty much every single one that's come since. Nearly every 'accident' that's lead to the creation of a new highly skilled and intelligent assassin droid has involved fragments of the original recovered HK code, usually when it was accidentally or ignorantly recycled into some existing droid programming. HK's code has almost virus-like qualities to it; any droid exposed to even pieces of it for extended periods of time becomes more violent, more aggressive, more amoral, and either calculating and cold, or flat-out psychotic.

IG-88 and it's 'brothers' are not HK-47, but it would not be incorrect to call them HK's offspring. Even well into the New Republic and Sith Resurgence eras, HK-47 is still killing meatbags.
Honestly, I would LOVE to see HK goin around still woopin some ass, especially upon these upstart "assassin droids" who's programming isn't even fully "intact" as far as HK is concerned.

We saw how he reacted to the HK-50 models
 
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