Sailor Moon Nanoha as Serenity: Take Two!

[ragnarok1337]

Of course. But there are a total of three underage childhood friends. So would it be a threesome? I would say MÚnage Ó trois, but that would only be applicable if they lived in the same household. Then again, if this takes place when they are a bit older, they might be living together in a small flat.

I want to see more fics that ship Nanoha and Alisa. So far the only one I found was a lemon.

 

[Shiakou]

Do we get to see <a href='http://s276.beta.photobucket.com/user/LeonAvalon666/library/Burning%20Alisa' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Burning</a> <a href='http://nanoha.bogusx.idv.tw/pixmicat.php?mode=category&c=Burning+Arisa' target='_blank' rel='nofollow'>Alisa</a>?

 

[Comartemis]

She doesn't exactly fit Uranus, though.

Sure she does, you just need to think less about wind and more about windstorms.

Anyways, to diverge away from the shipping business a little, I think my solution to the "Fate is Serenity" thing is that the Queen was making her reincarnation wish while she was in the middle of creating a dimensional distortion by sealing Metallia (and a temporal distortion by casting those souls into the future. This is some seriously huge magic she's doing). If the job isn't done perfectly then it's not impossible for one of the souls in her metaphysical grip to be cast outside the universe. After that point her wish for the Senshi and Endymion to meet again is what guides Serenity's crystal to one of a very small handful of individuals who will come to Earth and have a significant encounter with Nanoha.

 

[ragnarok1337]

Lol NanoFate shippers. I laugh at your antics.

 

[Comartemis]

There's only so much I can do if people are determined to hate the idea.

 

[ragnarok1337]

We don't hate the idea of a Nanoha/Sailor Moon fusion. What we think is ridiculous is the sheer amount of authorial fiat and asspulls you're trying to do in order to get your precious NanoFate, and get some sort of reincarnation romance behind it. Don't try and foist this on us as our fault.

 

[Comartemis]

We don't hate the idea of a Nanoha/Sailor Moon fusion. What we think is ridiculous is the sheer amount of authorial fiat and asspulls you're trying to do in order to get your precious NanoFate, and get some sort of reincarnation romance behind it. Don't try and foist this on us as our fault.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my primary motive for hooking Fate up with Serenity's star seed is so that she's not left behind if and when the power levels start going completely out of control and everyone who's not a Senshi becomes completely useless as well as the novelty that comes from Serenity not being the main character for once. I could care less about the reincarnation romance thing since Nanoha and Fate have plenty of chemistry without it, though it does serve its purposes as far as dramatic tension goes.

And by the by, "we" do not think anything. You think it's ridiculous but you're the only one who's responded to the dimensional distortion idea (save for EarthScorpion, but he thinks it's stupid for other reasons that I'm giving consideration and he's actually offered up a counter-proposal which is more than you can say). I don't care if you dislike the pairing but please cool your jets and stop acting like you're talking to Haru.

 

[Shiakou]

While ragnarok does come off a bit strong, he does have a point, Comartemis. You are basically replacing FOUR Sailor Moon characters, popular ones at that, with ones from Nanoha. To fans of those characters, that's, well, a huge letdown. (And if you think Mamoru isn't popular, you have to remember that Sailor Moon is first and foremost a shoujo series, with all the legions of fangirls that implies.)

In a serious fic, you have to justify the replacements with something deeper and more thematic than just les bait. Otherwise, it's kinda shallow.

The way the Nanoha/Fate chemistry worked in Nanoha canon was that Nanoha was first drawn to Fate simply because Fate was just about the saddest and loneliest person she had met up to that point. The same chemistry would have worked with either Mamoru (who is basically a less depressed, angrier Fate) and Hotaru (who is Fate, down to the Artificial Human and evil parents part). The former is the reason Mamoru got shipped with every Senshi except Saturn (yes, he got shipped with the canon lesbians by fangirls and fanboys), and the latter is the reason Chibi-Usa/Hotaru was so popular (despite Chibi-Usa being blatantly straight).

. . . Come to think of it, what's your plan with Chibi-Usa?

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

God-Empress of Mankind Vivio, obviously.

 

[Shiakou]

God-Empress of Mankind Vivio, obviously.

:mellow: I. . . I was afraid of that. . .

 

[Comartemis]

While ragnarok does come off a bit strong, he does have a point, Comartemis. You are basically replacing FOUR Sailor Moon characters, popular ones at that, with ones from Nanoha. To fans of those characters, that's, well, a huge letdown. (And if you think Mamoru isn't popular, you have to remember that Sailor Moon is first and foremost a shoujo series, with all the legions of fangirls that implies.)

In a serious fic, you have to justify the replacements with something deeper and more thematic than just les bait. Otherwise, it's kinda shallow.

The way the Nanoha/Fate chemistry worked in Nanoha canon was that Nanoha was first drawn to Fate simply because Fate was just about the saddest and loneliest person she had met up to that point. The same chemistry would have worked with either Mamoru (who is basically a less depressed, angrier Fate) and Hotaru (who is Fate, down to the Artificial Human and evil parents part). The former is the reason Mamoru got shipped with every Senshi except Saturn (yes, he got shipped with the canon lesbians by fangirls and fanboys), and the latter is the reason Chibi-Usa/Hotaru was so popular (despite Chibi-Usa being blatantly straight).

That's a fair point. The big problem with it is that I don't write for an audience so much as I write what amuses me, so I don't really care so much about replacing characters I don't like (which in SM is Mamoru and all of the Outers besides Saturn). By the same token I don't really want to pair up, say, Mamoru and Nanoha. So if that was the only way to make this fic work, I just wouldn't write it. It doesn't amuse me anymore so it's not worth bothering with when I have a million other plot bunnies all clamoring for my attention.

Meanwhile, ragnarok is mostly just insisting that everything I do to make the pairing work is an asspull without justifying himself. "You just want your precious NanoFate!" has been his response to both my use of destiny -- which is a thing that is known to exist in Sailor Moon, though it's not absolute -- and the dimensional distortion to plug Serenity's star seed into Fate without telling me why that's necessarily a bad thing or why my justifications are unreasonable.

The alternative that EarthScorpion proposed was having Precia and Jail hijack part of Serenity's ongoing wish spell as part of Project F, namely the part that reincarnates Alicia's soul into Fate, and then getting Serenity's star seed by mistake because they're messing around with powers they don't completely comprehend. Now I'm not sure that that doesn't violate my SoD but I thought it was worth bouncing over here for second opinions.

. . . Come to think of it, what's your plan with Chibi-Usa?

She's not even a consideration right now. I'm not thinking too much further ahead than the end of the first season.

 

[Garahs]

That's a fair point. The big problem with it is that I don't write for an audience so much as I write what amuses me, so I don't really care so much about replacing characters I don't like (which in SM is Mamoru and all of the Outers besides Saturn). By the same token I don't really want to pair up, say, Mamoru and Nanoha. So if that was the only way to make this fic work, I just wouldn't write it. It doesn't amuse me anymore so it's not worth bothering with when I have a million other plot bunnies all clamoring for my attention.

You don't have to pair anyone up to make a good story. It seems to be a concept alien to a lot of people. You can also have Nanoha/Fate if you really want it, but to truly make it work, you can't just make Fate into Endymion and expect people who aren't gaga over that pairing to read the story. It's basically the same concept as those Naruto/Sasuke yaoi fics.

Meanwhile, ragnarok is mostly just insisting that everything I do to make the pairing work is an asspull without justifying himself. "You just want your precious NanoFate!" has been his response to both my use of destiny -- which is a thing that is known to exist in Sailor Moon, though it's not absolute -- and the dimensional distortion to plug Serenity's star seed into Fate without telling me why that's necessarily a bad thing or why my justifications are unreasonable.

Didn't you make this thread because Bissek basically had a decent concept and completely screwed it up because he wasn't listening to the feedback about how he's fanboying over Nanoha and shafting the canon Senshi? And now you're basically doing the exact same thing?! Am I missing something here?

The alternative that EarthScorpion proposed was having Precia and Jail hijack part of Serenity's ongoing wish spell as part of Project F, namely the part that reincarnates Alicia's soul into Fate, and then getting Serenity's star seed by mistake because they're messing around with powers they don't completely comprehend. Now I'm not sure that that doesn't violate my SoD but I thought it was worth bouncing over here for second opinions.

Ok, so let's look at the coincidences needed for that. First, Project F was about creating an artificial mage. This was being done through genetic manipulation and, later, memory transfer. Second, it was being done a universe away from where Serenity's spell took place. Third, require a mixup somehow because the entire purpose of Project F for Precia was to get her daughter back. If the personality/magic wasn't Alicia's then it would have been discarded as a failure. Do I really need to continue?

 

[Comartemis]

You don't have to pair anyone up to make a good story.á It seems to be a concept alien to a lot of people.á You can also have Nanoha/Fate if you really want it, but to truly make it work, you can't just make Fate into Endymion and expect people who aren't gaga over that pairing to read the story.á It's basically the same concept as those Naruto/Sasuke yaoi fics.

I'm very aware of that but again, it amuses me more to do this than to skip it.

Didn't you make this thread because Bissek basically had a decent concept and completely screwed it up because he wasn't listening to the feedback about how he's fanboying over Nanoha and shafting the canon Senshi?á And now you're basically doing the exact same thing?!á Am I missing something here?

You are. The only "feedback" that ragnarok has offered on the matter is that I'm obsessed with NanoFate. He hasn't offered any actual criticism of my methods beyond "that's an asspull!" or "lol, you NanoFate shippers and your crazy antics!" like we're back on AnimeSuki or something. If he gave me some actual reasons why this breaks SoD then that would be one thing, I could at least have something to consider. But right now he's giving me nothing.

On the other hand, I am aware that I'm shafting the TSAB to some extent by using the Senshi's manga power levels and I'm reconsidering that into something more like a "magic vs magitek" subplot of sorts.

Ok, so let's look at the coincidences needed for that.á First, Project F was about creating an artificial mage.á This was being done through genetic manipulation and, later, memory transfer.á Second, it was being done a universe away from where Serenity's spell took place.á Third, require a mixup somehow because the entire purpose of Project F for Precia was to get her daughter back.á If the personality/magic wasn't Alicia's then it would have been discarded as a failure. Do I really need to continue?

See, this is what I need to hear about the dimensional distortion stuff. And I'll get back to this in a bit, 'cause right now I'm late for class. Watch this space for edits in a few minutes.

*EDIT*
These are mostly the same issues I had with the idea, but to play Devil's Advocate: (1) the merged setting has souls, which are probably known of but also probably aren't completely understood by the larger Nanoha setting. Precia would want Alicia's soul to be transferred to Fate, which requires more than genetic and memory transfers. (2) If she's doing it at the Garden of Time, Precia can just up and move until Project F is finished. (3) Precia wouldn't know the experiment was a failure until Fate woke up and started acting off in very minute ways. She wouldn't have a completely different personality because she has Fate's memories and because Serenity even in canon only manifests through Usagi on very rare occasions.

 

[bissek]

The big problem with it is that I don't write for an audience so much as I write what amuses me,

And you complained when I did that...

 

[Comartemis]

The big problem with it is that I don't write for an audience so much as I write what amuses me,

And you complained when I did that...

No, I complained when you wrote a shameless bashfic and other people had sufficiently horrible taste to try to tell me that it was well-written. When what amuses me amounts to people stepping on Incubators or some other non-lemony masturbation aid, I keep it cooped up in my head where it belongs instead of letting it spill out to plague the living like the spawn of so many yaoi fangirls. You on the other hand have no such decency.

 

[Shiakou]

Alright Comartemis, ignore ragnarok for a moment.

Think "How can I develop the Fate/Nanoha relationship in such a way to be three-dimensional?"

Sailor Moon was very explicit about Usagi's relationship with Mamoru, and the trials they went through. It developed both characters nicely.

Nanoha, by comparison, showed us why Fate and Nanoha ended up friends. . . but refused to go any further. Oh, sure we can reasonably assume at this point that they're a couple, but the Nanoha franchise failed to give their relationship any sort of depth. All dialogues, verbal or otherwise, about all the important things in a relationship: sex, love, support, commitment, issues with finance, homosexuality, personality: apparently it all happened off-screen off-screen as far as the Nanoha franchise was concerned. We're just supposed to accept that all is well, and oh how they look cute together. They might as well be both asexual people who are comfortable enough with each other to live together.

And it's not just Nanoha/Fate; ALL relationships in the Nanoha franchise are like that. We have little explicit material of the issues Fate confronted about adjusting to her new family, or Chrono and Amy's marriage, or why Yuuno just dropped off the radar, or how well Hayate adjusted to her new family. The Sound Stages helped a bit, but not enough, which means that relationships in the Nanoha-verse were kinda flat.

Frankly, it was unsatisfying. Most of the details about the Nanohaverse's relationships are fanon, because canon offered so little.

But now, you're taking the Nanoha characters into a shoujo series. And shoujo is nothing, nothing I say, without explicit dialogue of emotions, feelings and personality conflicts, hostile and otherwise, and the drama involved. So, you have to do better. And the worst thing you can do is focus on the Nanoha/Fate romance to the exclusion of their relationship development with other people. The second worst thing you can do is to ignore romance almost entirely as canon Nanoha did and just go "Oh they ended up together; here's some moe images to make up for lack of actual development".

 

[Comartemis]

Alright Comartemis, ignore ragnarok for a moment.

Think "How can I develop the Fate/Nanoha relationship in such a way to be three-dimensional?"

Sailor Moon was very explicit about Usagi's relationship with Mamoru, and the trials they went through. It developed both characters nicely.

Nanoha, by comparison, showed us why Fate and Nanoha ended up friends. . . but refused to go any further. Oh, sure we can reasonably assume at this point that they're a couple, but the Nanoha franchise failed to give their relationship any sort of depth. All dialogues, verbal or otherwise, about all the important things in a relationship: sex, love, support, commitment, issues with finance, homosexuality, personality: apparently it all happened off-screen off-screen as far as the Nanoha franchise was concerned. We're just supposed to accept that all is well, and oh how they look cute together. They might as well be both asexual people who are comfortable enough with each other to live together.

And it's not just Nanoha/Fate; ALL relationships in the Nanoha franchise are like that. We have little explicit material of the issues Fate confronted about adjusting to her new family, or Chrono and Amy's marriage, or why Yuuno just dropped off the radar, or how well Hayate adjusted to her new family. The Sound Stages helped a bit, but not enough, which means that relationships in the Nanoha-verse were kinda flat.

Frankly, it was unsatisfying. Most of the details about the Nanohaverse's relationships are fanon, because canon offered so little.

But now, you're taking the Nanoha characters into a shoujo series. And shoujo is nothing, nothing I say, without explicit dialogue of emotions, feelings and personality conflicts, hostile and otherwise, and the drama involved. So, you have to do better. And the worst thing you can do is focus on the Nanoha/Fate romance to the exclusion of their relationship development with other people. The second worst thing you can do is to ignore romance almost entirely as canon Nanoha did and just go "Oh they ended up together; here's some moe images to make up for lack of actual development".

*cracks knuckles*

This I can do. Let's start with Suzuka and Arisa.

In canon S&A had that little conflict with Nanoha around the middle of the first season where they knew Nanoha was hiding something from them and she was hiding it badly. Now in canon that conflict ended with "I'm sorry, we're friends again, etc etc... but I still can't tell you anything." Here however Suzuka and Arisa become personally involved early into that conflict without that resolution happening. I think this would plant a little seed of distrust between Arisa and Nanoha; "She didn't even tell us that she was fighting monsters to save the world! When IS she going to trust us with her problems?!"

Arisa is Nanoha's self-appointed guardian. She's a rock that wants to be leaned on and never is and that frustrates the hell out of her. I would like for this to develop so that Nanoha eventually does learn to rely on Arisa and on her team instead of trying to do everything herself. The trick here might be making the incident with the giant tree happen again so that Nanoha has that same complex about working herself to the bone; that's an interesting flaw and I think she needs to hang on to it rather than just magic it away in a swirl of butterflies.

Suzuka is trickier to figure because she's more passive than Arisa is but she's clearly concerned about Nanoha too. There's a stronger undercurrent of reason there, however; where Arisa is incensed that Nanoha wouldn't trust them with her problems, Suzuka is sure that Nanoha has her reasons and those reasons turn out to be "this is too huge and I would be putting you both in danger" and so on. There's no mistrust between Nanoha and Suzuka because Suzuka understands these reasons, but she's still determined to help Nanoha deal with her problems now that she is involved and she does know that she can help.

In a way, S&A wind up being a lot like Haruka and Michiru in that they're willing to go behind Nanoha's back in order to protect her, though they obviously don't have that same streak of ruthlessness that H&M always had to them. This is the sort of relationship where Nanoha will slip out of bed late at night for a solo patrol around the neighborhood and find S&A waiting for her on the first rooftop.

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

The big problem with it is that I don't write for an audience so much as I write what amuses me,

And you complained when I did that...

No, I complained when you wrote a shameless bashfic and other people had sufficiently horrible taste to try to tell me that it was well-written. When what amuses me amounts to people stepping on Incubators or some other non-lemony masturbation aid, I keep it cooped up in my head where it belongs instead of letting it spill out to plague the living like the spawn of so many yaoi fangirls. You on the other hand have no such decency.

I don't think a worm has much room to talk about who has or doesn't have decency.

 

[Shiakou]

snipped

:drool: Go on~

 

[Comartemis]

snipped

:drool: Go on~

Nanoha's initial circle of friends has an extra member, that being Ami, who everyone knows from attending the same cram school as her. In the manga and in PGSM Ami's mom is a doctor who works long hours at the hospital so Ami has a lonely home life, which of course draws Nanoha and company straight to her. In the interest of not making her too different from her canon persona this is sort of a recent thing and Ami still has feelings of being a third wheel in Nanoha's little clique. This is alleviated somewhat because she and Nanoha are both huge math nerds who have a friendly competition for the top grades in their class, though Ami is better at teaching the material so she retains her position as the one everyone goes to for study help. She gets along best with Suzuka, second-best with Nanoha, and third with Arisa, who makes her slightly nervous in that she hasn't quite figured out which buttons are marked TSUN and which are marked DERE just yet, but she'll be over this by the time Makoto joins the team at the latest.

Ami is the cool intellectual member of the group, compared to Suzuka who's the cool emotional member. Ami can make appeals to reason in an argument but she's not as good at getting others to cool their tempers as Suzuka is, which is part of the reason why she doesn't get along with Arisa quite as well as the others. Suzuka is the best person to stop a fight, but Ami is the person you go to when you have sensitive issues and "I have this friend" dilemmas that need answers divorced from personal opinions because she consistently offers sound and logical advice and she doesn't pry for answers. This sets her apart from Suzuka and Arisa as the only person Nanoha will confide in while she's struggling with her trust issues, at least in the early parts of the series.

 

[zeebee1]

Fate could be Chibi Usa. Though the hair would mean Yuuno is her father.

 

[Dark Knight Gafgar]

But if Yuuno is Fate's dad, doesn't that mean he slept with Precia at some point?

 

[ragnarok1337]

But if Yuuno is Fate's dad, doesn't that mean he slept with Precia at some point?

Time travel shenanigans.

 

[zeebee1]

Due to the trappings of destiny Linith combined Nanoha and Yuuno's DNA to make Fate, though the base was still Alicia.

 

[ragnarok1337]

In this fic, Yuuno will be 14. A few months back he accidentally activated a Lost Logia which sent him back in time several decades, where he met a teenaged Precia. One thing led to another, and in time the two had a bundle of joy. Teenagers don't always think things through. However the Lost Logia pulled him back to his own time right as their daughter was about to be born. Precia took a hit to SAN, but was very kind to Alicia. The reason she's so obsessed is that she doesn't want to lose her daughter like she did Yuuno.

She'll get a nasty shock when she sees a still-teenaged Yuuno leading the assault on the Garden of Time. He never did mention the time travel bit to her.